DPS Tests are wildly biased

SmellyUnlimited

To preface, perhaps there are much different ways of conducting a dps test (for a guild). I’ve been told this is the norm, though.

The bias toward Magicka on DPS Tests is staggering.


Magicka - Get Ele Drain, and someone wearing Worm.
Stamina - Pierce

So Magicka gets mana return on attack, 4% mana reduction, and major breach. This is in addition to the the inherent light armor passives of spell pen and regen (not my main point, just using as a comparison)

Stamina gets....zero resource return. While both classes utilize heavy attacks in their rotation, the efficiency of a lightning staff completely overshadows dual wield HA.

I understand there is the mindset to make the tests more trials-esque....so...

Why not have healing springs with a master resto staff on Stam during tests? I main a temp healer, and any vet trial healer worth their salt should be utilizing this.

The main point is, why the incongruity? I ask this honestly. Even asking my guild, and searching the forums, the responses have been wildly inconsistent.

witchdoctor

Honest answer: great question. Look forward to seeing answers.

Smart butt answer: stamina generally means melee, and in the history of MMO, melee is the most hated by design.

SodanTok

100% trials have Major Fracture, Major Breach and Minor Magickasteal no matter how deep into the pug you go

Can you really say that 100% boss fights in 100% trials have all stamina DD benefiting from Master Resto?

code65536

Who cares? Nobody should be comparing a ranged magicka parse with a melee stamina parse. Stamina parses are compared against other stamina parses. Magicka parses against magicka parses.

SirAndy

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

DPS Tests are wildly biased

Well duh ...

My epeen is small enough that i always only list my SOLO DPS, and by SOLO i actually mean SOLO, not me hitting the dummy while someone else provides buffs/debuffs.

SOLO DPS as in, i'm there all lonely and sad, blaming that wretched dummy for all my misery while i hack it to pieces.

Integral1900

Target dummies screw with the numbers anyway, after all, how many bosses just sit there like plant pot?

Sixty5

I've always run target dummies as solo-self buffed

code65536

SirAndy wrote: »

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

DPS Tests are wildly biased

Well duh ...

My epeen is small enough that i always only list my SOLO DPS, and by SOLO i actually mean SOLO, not me hitting the dummy while someone else provides buffs/debuffs.

SOLO DPS as in, i'm there all lonely and sad, blaming that wretched dummy for all my misery while i hack it to pieces.

You're missing the point. The reason why those buffs are provided is because a big part about dummy parses is seeing if someone has a good rotation. If a DPS needs to provide their own Ele, then (1) that alters their bar setup and (2) that alters their rotation. If they just run without Ele, then they'll need to heavy attack more which again changes their rotation.

As for stamina DPS, due to the amount of heavy attacks they have, they should be able to sustain without Master springs, so the lack of that sustain would not change what they do.

WuffyCerulei

Stam have cheaper skills and do more damage overall. They're not hated as dps right now.

WrathOfInnos

Sixty5 wrote: »

I've always run target dummies as solo-self buffed

^ This. I don't like asking friends to waste their time buffing and debuffing target skeletons just so my parses can look better.

DoctorESO

.

SmellyUnlimited

code65536 wrote: »

Who cares? Nobody should be comparing a ranged magicka parse with a melee stamina parse. Stamina parses are compared against other stamina parses. Magicka parses against magicka parses.

Because a lot of guilds have a dps threshold you have to meet to run vMoL, vHoF, etc. No one is compared against anything other than that magic number.

Side note: DPS parses also suffer from people using sets/cp no one uses in a trial. TFS shouldn’t be used in an organized trial group, yet there you have it. People running the Lover mundus for tests, putting 100 pts into tenacity/regen, etc.
A real dps test should be an X-men danger room setting. You get points for your damage, amount of damage you mitigate through blocking/dodging/shields (thus making life a bit easier on healers), and points you obtain for rez’ing a bunch of dead dummy’s scattered around.

SmellyUnlimited

code65536 wrote: »

SirAndy wrote: »

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

DPS Tests are wildly biased

Well duh ...

My epeen is small enough that i always only list my SOLO DPS, and by SOLO i actually mean SOLO, not me hitting the dummy while someone else provides buffs/debuffs.

SOLO DPS as in, i'm there all lonely and sad, blaming that wretched dummy for all my misery while i hack it to pieces.

You're missing the point. The reason why those buffs are provided is because a big part about dummy parses is seeing if someone has a good rotation. If a DPS needs to provide their own Ele, then (1) that alters their bar setup and (2) that alters their rotation. If they just run without Ele, then they'll need to heavy attack more which again changes their rotation.

As for stamina DPS, due to the amount of heavy attacks they have, they should be able to sustain without Master springs, so the lack of that sustain would not change what they do.

By that logic, Magicka then should get pierce only, same as stam. Stam has to heavy attack to get resources, but somehow Mag gets a pass? Yeah, in a perfect world Stam wouldn’t have to heavy attack either. It is entirely for resource gain, the damage/ult building is much more efficient if you can afford to just light attack. Even with Bound Armaments/Igneous, heavy attacking will not outparse the increases ultimate usage damage. But that’s what Stam has to do....well....because not doing it means less resources, and that would (gasp) change our rotation.

Runefang

I'm not sure exactly what you're whining about?

Nobody takes these DPS tests that seriously, its a fairly flexible measuring stick.

Waffennacht

If only there was stamina steal

code65536

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

I've always run target dummies as solo-self buffed

^ This. I don't like asking friends to waste their time buffing and debuffing target skeletons just so my parses can look better.

It's not about making your parse look better. It's about testing the rotation and bars that you'd use in a trial. Nobody cares about your rotation and bars for solo parsing.

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

Because a lot of guilds have a dps threshold you have to meet to run vMoL, vHoF, etc. No one is compared against anything other than that magic number.

Most guilds will have a threshold of X for ranged magicka and Y for melee stamina. Some will even have different thresholds for different classes. If a guild has a single threshold for all types of players, then that guild's leadership doesn't know what they're doing.

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

Side note: DPS parses also suffer from people using sets/cp no one uses in a trial. TFS shouldn’t be used in an organized trial group, yet there you have it. People running the Lover mundus for tests, putting 100 pts into tenacity/regen, etc.

We call parses like that "cheese parses". The kinds of things you listed (plus others, such as having a resource drain/s in Combat Metrics that's substantially higher than regen/s) are not acceptable. If there's a guild that accepts those kinds of parses in their application, then that guild's leadership doesn't know what they're doing.

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

By that logic, Magicka then should get pierce only, same as stam. Stam has to heavy attack to get resources, but somehow Mag gets a pass?

Because that's what they do in an actual trial. After Morrowind, if you watch stamina DPS in trials, they don't even slot a spammable like Rapid Strikes. It's Heavy Attack > DoT > Heavy Attack > DoT. Sure, there are heavy-attack magicka builds, but there are a lot more light-attack magicka builds than there are light-attack stamina builds. That's just the nature of how the game is played right now. Dummy parsing is merely a reflection of that.

BTW, before Morrowind killed light-attack-spammable builds, it was pretty common for stamina DPS to get shards in parses. And if a healer threw them shards now, that would still be acceptable. Just that nobody bothers to because they don't need it.

Vosital

code65536 wrote: »

Who cares? Nobody should be comparing a ranged magicka parse with a melee stamina parse. Stamina parses are compared against other stamina parses. Magicka parses against magicka parses.

Well don't forget the people who really get screwed over the most, magicka melee setups. All the danger of melee without any of the DPS benefits of stam.

code65536

Vosital wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Who cares? Nobody should be comparing a ranged magicka parse with a melee stamina parse. Stamina parses are compared against other stamina parses. Magicka parses against magicka parses.

Well don't forget the people who really get screwed over the most, magicka melee setups. All the danger of melee without any of the DPS benefits of stam.

They aren't screwed by DPS testing. They were screwed by the change in game balance. DPS testing is just a reflection/measure that. That's like blaming the bathroom scale for the weight gain of someone who stopped exercising.

SmellyUnlimited

Vosital wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Who cares? Nobody should be comparing a ranged magicka parse with a melee stamina parse. Stamina parses are compared against other stamina parses. Magicka parses against magicka parses.

Well don't forget the people who really get screwed over the most, magicka melee setups. All the danger of melee without any of the DPS benefits of stam.

What is a Magicka melee build? Is that akin to a Magicka DK, since they basically melee with flame lash/strike/fire breath?
Only other one I can think of are MagBlades if they are using Lotus/concealed weapon, but I’m not sure I’ve ever seen that outside PvP. Very interested to know more about these.

@code65536

I think this guild is anomaly. I’m trying to find a true end-game guild that recognizes the things you mentioned; maybe those are more common on PC, but sadly PS4 can be very few and far between. I was in a guild, though, that had different value requirements for Mag and Stam.

How nice it would be to see different character thresholds. If any PS4 players out there are recruiting, give the Smellmeister a shout!

SirAndy

code65536 wrote: »

Nobody cares about your rotation and bars for solo parsing.

Is that so? Last time i checked there was more to ESO than just trials.
Yes, some of us change rotation (gasp, the horror!) when switching from solo to trial runs.

If i can't get decent DPS solo, what kind of player does that make me?

One learns a lot when soloing hard content where you have to do everything yourself.
IMHO, it also makes you a better group player.

fioskal

SirAndy wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Nobody cares about your rotation and bars for solo parsing.

Is that so? Last time i checked there was more to ESO than just trials.
Yes, some of us change rotation (gasp, the horror!) when switching from solo to trial runs.

If i can't get decent DPS solo, what kind of player does that make me?

One learns a lot when soloing hard content where you have to do everything yourself.
IMHO, it also makes you a better group player.

Guilds ask for dummy parses for things such as trials, not overland/solo content.

Yeah you want to be able to sustain and kill things solo, but if you're trying to do group content with a guild, that's not what is being looked for in a dummy parse.

SirAndy

fioskal wrote: »

Guilds ask for dummy parses for things such as trials, not overland/solo content.
Yeah you want to be able to sustain and kill things solo, but if you're trying to do group content with a guild, that's not what is being looked for in a dummy parse.

Obviously, i'm in the wrong guilds then. Two of which do daily trial runs.

Shockingly, not everyone is the same and not every guild does things the way you think they should ...

getemshauna

Staminas have superior HAs. Peace.

Yubarius

code65536 wrote: »

SirAndy wrote: »

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

DPS Tests are wildly biased

Well duh ...

My epeen is small enough that i always only list my SOLO DPS, and by SOLO i actually mean SOLO, not me hitting the dummy while someone else provides buffs/debuffs.

SOLO DPS as in, i'm there all lonely and sad, blaming that wretched dummy for all my misery while i hack it to pieces.

You're missing the point. The reason why those buffs are provided is because a big part about dummy parses is seeing if someone has a good rotation. If a DPS needs to provide their own Ele, then (1) that alters their bar setup and (2) that alters their rotation. If they just run without Ele, then they'll need to heavy attack more which again changes their rotation.

As for stamina DPS, due to the amount of heavy attacks they have, they should be able to sustain without Master springs, so the lack of that sustain would not change what they do.

Stamina DD's have more heavy attacks than magicka? I didn't realize there was a set amount.

FakeFox

Stamina does not need return. In a raid magicka builds need and have magickasteal, stamina builds have no form of ressource support and they don't need it.

Edit: You could argue that stamina gets synergies in raids (so does magicka) some other irrelevantly small sources like master restro, however resources costs in raids and dungeons are higher due to sprinting, blocking, etc. Without those factors every stamina build should be able to sustain on it's own.

kylewwefan

OP has some good points. The stars don’t always align for me. Don’t know I’ve ever had a healer with masters resto when I’m on Stam DPS, though it would be nice.

When I have healed with a masters resto and mending, the Stam DPS were blown away how much difference it makes. Especially the light attacking Nightblades.

I find, it’s actually on the rare side to find a healer with Masters Resto, despite what you read on here.

Merlin13KAGL

Pretty sure that's why, with the possible exception of Pierce Armor, most are interested in fully self-buffed tests these days.

If set up similarly to how one would trial build (meaning, no Lover cheese unless you run it normally, etc), a self-buffed test will be the worst-case scenario, meaning the numbers will likely go up in a trial setting.

In regard to the discrepancy between Mag tests and Stam tests, a DW HA and a lightning stave HA take different amounts of time and return different amounts of resources. Pretty sure the desired DPS is also different between the two, to help account for benefits and downsides of each. (There is no Magicka VO set, for instance).

Whatever the 'norm' is, at least for the guild doing the test, so long as the requirements are the same from person to person, that's all that matters.

Pastas

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

To preface, perhaps there are much different ways of conducting a dps test (for a guild). I’ve been told this is the norm, though.

The bias toward Magicka on DPS Tests is staggering.


Magicka - Get Ele Drain, and someone wearing Worm.
Stamina - Pierce

So Magicka gets mana return on attack, 4% mana reduction, and major breach. This is in addition to the the inherent light armor passives of spell pen and regen (not my main point, just using as a comparison)

Stamina gets....zero resource return. While both classes utilize heavy attacks in their rotation, the efficiency of a lightning staff completely overshadows dual wield HA.

I understand there is the mindset to make the tests more trials-esque....so...

Why not have healing springs with a master resto staff on Stam during tests? I main a temp healer, and any vet trial healer worth their salt should be utilizing this.

The main point is, why the incongruity? I ask this honestly. Even asking my guild, and searching the forums, the responses have been wildly inconsistent.

People use Elemental Drain on dummies because magika sustain is worst.
When I practice rotations solo I can sustain my stam chars just with heavy attacks, but I always have to slot ED with magika chars if I dont want to run out of resources.

idk

It is a guilds choice how they will handle dps tests and what will be required. They can pass their own test and if they require you to pass it to join them or to raid with them then you have only one choice Pass it or go somewhere else.

Further, as Code pointed out, guilds tend to have different requirements for magicka and stam. Sometimes different requirements for each class as well.

This thread will do absolutely nothing to change their choice so it serves zero purpose. BTW, many guilds setup the tests based on what they can do and often lower the requirements some from their level.

code65536

SirAndy wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Nobody cares about your rotation and bars for solo parsing.

Is that so? Last time i checked there was more to ESO than just trials.
Yes, some of us change rotation (gasp, the horror!) when switching from solo to trial runs.

If i can't get decent DPS solo, what kind of player does that make me?

One learns a lot when soloing hard content where you have to do everything yourself.
IMHO, it also makes you a better group player.

But who cares about dummy parses for solo content? Nobody asks for a test before you can go solo a dungeon because, well, it's solo. You can whack on a dummy for practice and for your own purposes, and there are no rules or whatever about how you do those kinds of tests.

Dummy parsing rules exist only for parses where you are comparing your performance against that of another person or a set benchmark, and for those parses to be comparable in a meaningful way, rules are needed to standardize the test parameters. But these kinds of tests are generally used for things like guild applications, which means trials

Not doing trials? That's okay. Just soloing content? That's fine. If you're just hitting a dummy for your own sake, then these kinds of rules aren't even applicable or relevant in the first place.

The OP is complaining about the standards set for dummy parsing, and those standards exist and are relevant only for the sake of a certain area of gameplay. That's why we "don't care" about solo parses. Not because they're somehow irrelevant in general, but because they are irrelevant to the topic at hand.

Splattercat_83

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

SirAndy wrote: »

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

DPS Tests are wildly biased

Well duh ...

My epeen is small enough that i always only list my SOLO DPS, and by SOLO i actually mean SOLO, not me hitting the dummy while someone else provides buffs/debuffs.

SOLO DPS as in, i'm there all lonely and sad, blaming that wretched dummy for all my misery while i hack it to pieces.

You're missing the point. The reason why those buffs are provided is because a big part about dummy parses is seeing if someone has a good rotation. If a DPS needs to provide their own Ele, then (1) that alters their bar setup and (2) that alters their rotation. If they just run without Ele, then they'll need to heavy attack more which again changes their rotation.

As for stamina DPS, due to the amount of heavy attacks they have, they should be able to sustain without Master springs, so the lack of that sustain would not change what they do.

By that logic, Magicka then should get pierce only, same as stam. Stam has to heavy attack to get resources, but somehow Mag gets a pass? Yeah, in a perfect world Stam wouldn’t have to heavy attack either. It is entirely for resource gain, the damage/ult building is much more efficient if you can afford to just light attack. Even with Bound Armaments/Igneous, heavy attacking will not outparse the increases ultimate usage damage. But that’s what Stam has to do....well....because not doing it means less resources, and that would (gasp) change our rotation.

Stam rotations consist of primarily heavy attack weaving with their rotations. Magicka has almost double the ability cost as stam, so they aren't getting a "pass". No resource return should be needed if the person testing has any skill what so ever. If, and that is a big IF, they need something for resource return, they healer can throw healing orbs or shards off dummy.