moved

Belegnole

Lots of people use it. But, it's just a crutch.

Dredlord

Yes they all use it (pc) the pve version of a miats using scrub in pvp.

code65536

One of the first features in RaidNotifier was the color swap on the twins fight in Maw. Which is one of the most notoriously buggy visuals in the game. How many times have people been in that fight and not seen what color they had over their heads? How many times have you heard someone ask, "what's my color?"

If the game had better telegraphs, better cues, addons like RN won't be as useful. But there is a reason why everyone uses it.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

code65536 wrote: »

One of the first features in RaidNotifier was the color swap on the twins fight in Maw. Which is one of the most notoriously buggy visuals in the game. How many times have people been in that fight and not seen what color they had over their heads? How many times have you heard someone ask, "what's my color?"

If the game had better telegraphs, better cues, addons like RN won't be as useful. But there is a reason why everyone uses it.

Addons are necessary due to the lack of reliability of particle effects. Don't like addons? Get ZOS to fix their game instead of figuring out ways to charge money for changing your costume.

Chufu

RaidNotifier is still awesome! And in some fights really helpful, when a lot of things "happen".

I don't see the point why you shouldn't use it. Of course you could do it without it.... but we are all lazy, aren't we?

Foxic

Raid notifier is unnecessary most of the time. However there are strats and add pulls that aren't possible without it.

To say it's akin to bumper bowling is silly. Raid notifier can tell you things that you can't know otherwise like who a mechanic is about to target

Edit : and this is coming from a "REAL" raider who has consistently held top world scores

Blackleopardex

In my opinion turning it completely off is not viable in serous raiding, I mean sure it's not that you can't play without it.. but when you just don't get shown the animation/aoe/mechanic because of game bugs/computer issues it will save that no death run. There are certain options in it that I keep on at all times. That said you sure don't need it to complete a trial, it's not like it has been around since the beginning. So my conclusion is to new players, rather then deactivating it, customize it for your own liking, turn off certain settings you notice you don't need anymore!

Asardes

In most trials animation and telegraphs sometimes glitch badly. For example in vMoL I blew the group up repeatedly once simply because the warning circle at the feet of the character failed to show up. I felt like crap, and felt obliged to install it since I was screwing up the whole group.

Kyoma

Blackleopardex wrote: »

In my opinion turning it completely off is not viable in serous raiding, I mean sure it's not that you can't play without it.. but when you just don't get shown the animation/aoe/mechanic because of game bugs/computer issues it will save that no death run. There are certain options in it that I keep on at all times. That said you sure don't need it to complete a trial, it's not like it has been around since the beginning. So my conclusion is to new players, rather then deactivating it, customize it for your own liking, turn off certain settings you notice you don't need anymore!

This pretty much sums up what I would say about all of this.

---

That being said, Raid Notifier is, and always will be, a tool. And it is up to the player on how to use this tool.

But I certainly agree that over time certain alerts have gotten outdated or are just plain useless and in more recent versions I have dimmed down the amount of things that were on by default. Often I just didn't want to remove something completely unless it was broken and I could not fix it.

As for bugs, I've always tried to fix bugs that I am made aware of but I do not often play the old trials. So if you have a bug try reporting it on esoui before you complain about the addon having bugs that aren't being fixed.

Sylosi

LordSemaj wrote: »

I guess the answer depends on whether you consider a mathematician to be an expert in his field if he uses a calculator. Or an architect or engineer to be competent if he uses drawing software like CAD.

Difference is an architect, engineer, etc are a jobs and require a high level of 'skill' for want of a better word even when using aids like CAD, PvE in MMORPGs is neither a job (though some think it is), nor is highly skilled.

So what you do with aids like raidnotifier is to varying degrees bypass parts of the gameplay (or reduce it to a meaningless level) gameplay that is supposed to be there as part of the fun, challenge, etc of playing a game, and lets face PvE in MMORPGs is already pretty unchallenging as far as gaming goes, so reducing it further is well...

Which is why this is thread is basically a rhetorical question, I mean it is essentially asking will the sort of low grade zombies who care little for gameplay or challenge make use of an addon that makes it even easier for them to complete their meaningless activity, the answer should be obvious...

LiquidPony

DPShiro wrote: »

I don’t mind it being available, as some things in game might be too subtle. (anyone with half a brain and 3 fingers can handle mechanics with this add on, it literally tells you what to do)

But it does create an unfair advantage to players not using them, like consoles.
Therefore it shouldn’t be allowed to get a leaderboard score with them enabled, or they need to be available to everyone, so all players have the same prerequisites.

It’s just one of the reasons similar scores on consoles is much more impressive.

Yeah, I sort of agree with that.

But then again, comparing scores on PC vs. console is more than just Raid Notifier. It's also performance and latency, keyboard and mouse, other addons (the built-in buff trackers are garbage, no Warhorn trackers, we can't do actual in-game parses on console, even the parses we can do are almost useless since we can't get CMX-like breakdowns, etc.), the ability to test a bunch of stuff for free on PTS, and so on and so forth.

If I could, I'd use it, even if I do think it's a little bit cheesy. But thats easy to get over because there's so much broken stuff in the game. Can't tell you how many times we've had color changes pop up late, no colors over the heads, bugged cleansing platforms on Zhal'jassa, invisible tethers up top on the Pinnacle Factotum, invisible safe spots on first boss AA, etc.

badmojo

f047ys3v3n wrote: »

buggy

FakeFox wrote: »

bugged

Turelus wrote: »

bugged

Zer0oo wrote: »

bugs

code65536 wrote: »

bugged

Asmael wrote: »

bugged

code65536 wrote: »

buggy

Blackleopardex wrote: »

bugs

LiquidPony wrote: »

bugged

If the bugs were fixed would you stop using it? Will they bother fixing the bugs if you keep using it?

I don't care about the addon or who uses it, but if its existence keeps bugs from being fixed, that's not good.

LiquidPony

badmojo wrote: »

f047ys3v3n wrote: »

buggy

FakeFox wrote: »

bugged

Turelus wrote: »

bugged

Zer0oo wrote: »

bugs

code65536 wrote: »

bugged

Asmael wrote: »

bugged

code65536 wrote: »

buggy

Blackleopardex wrote: »

bugs

LiquidPony wrote: »

bugged

If the bugs were fixed would you stop using it? Will they bother fixing the bugs if you keep using it?

I don't care about the addon or who uses it, but if its existence keeps bugs from being fixed, that's not good.

Well I don't use it anyway because I'm a console pleb.

But, if I did have access to it, I'd use it if that's what my "competition" was doing.

Blackleopardex

badmojo wrote: »

f047ys3v3n wrote: »

buggy

FakeFox wrote: »

bugged

Turelus wrote: »

bugged

Zer0oo wrote: »

bugs

code65536 wrote: »

bugged

Asmael wrote: »

bugged

code65536 wrote: »

buggy

Blackleopardex wrote: »

bugs

LiquidPony wrote: »

bugged

If the bugs were fixed would you stop using it? Will they bother fixing the bugs if you keep using it?

I don't care about the addon or who uses it, but if its existence keeps bugs from being fixed, that's not good.

I think not tbh, I mean, there are a few of the notifications that I would like to see anyway when *** hits the fan as raidlead. And to blame the addon for un-repaired bugs is not fair. We should be glad players did this for us because honestly i think non of the related bugs would see a fix to this date even if raid-notifier was not made. I mean we still have bugs raid-notifier can't help us with and they still failed to be fixed after years. I could be wrong tho...

jlboozer

REAL raiders play on console, no hand holding add ons FTW!

Jhalin

It's odd people are trying to compare RaidNotifier to Miat's. Miat's is exclusively for PvP, and it's primary function is to completely negate the ability of other real life humans to engage in combat effectively.

RaidNotifier is necessary for PvE because everything is always bugged or has issues rendering. There's no aspect that impairs another player's (or raid group's) ability to succeed in the content effectively. vTrials would need a serious overhaul to their cues and mechanic visuals in order for RaidNotifier to stop being necessary. But even right now most mechanics are understood by endgame raiders. We just can't account for sphaghetti code that usually wipes the group.

Izaki

Frankly whenever there's a notification about something that's about to happen, I'm already aware of that mechanic and am already taking the actions I need to take. Like frankly, when you've done enough raids, you really don't need it. But its a nice way on ensuring people don't screw up score runs.

Paralyse

tl;dr as the game gets more complex (mechanics, rotations, builds) RaidNotifier type addons become more and more essential to completing encounters.


If you look at WoW's four-tier raid system, the use of the WoW equivalent (i.e. Deadly Boss Mods) is mandatory above all but the lowest (entry-level) tier for anyone wishing to raid with a guild raid team. Sure, there are still folks who refuse to "use the crutch" of boss encounter add-ons, but they tend to be rare and exceptional, and many raid leaders consider such folks a liability to the raid team unless they have proven their ability to execute at a high level during encounters.

RaidNotifier is less necessary in ESO than DBM is in WoW, but this is due to ESO's design. For instance, the ESO recap can help you improve your game play by learning what to avoid; this feature just finally appeared in WoW within the last couple of years. But that doesn't mean RaidNotifier is bad for the game, or that it "de-motivates" players to play with skill.

Raid boss fights in WoW are, mechanically, far more complex than they were 10 or even 5 years ago. The very first raid in WoW - the Molten Core - had one or maybe two raid mechanics per encounter: e.g. "Kill this particular add first", "Don't stand in front of this guy", "Move when you see this spell being cast". Instead, the fights focused on player performance - maximizing damage, having the right skills and spells, efficient healing, tank threat management, bringing the right classes and builds to each fight - and those were the determining factors, more often than not, in a successful boss kill or a humiliating walk back. Most bosses didn't telegraph their mechanics, either, requiring you to focus on their cast bars.

By comparison, the first raid boss -- theoretically the least difficult -- in the lowest two tiers of the most currently released raid in WoW has no less than THREE mechanics that can kill players and/or cause the raid to wipe in less than 3-5 seconds, and for the top two tiers of raiding, that goes up to 4 mechanics. While player performance is still a big factor in a kill vs. a wipe -- especially in higher tier difficulties -- success at an encounter now, more than ever, is based on successful completion of fight mechanics. Having the best damage dealers, the most robust tanks, and the most efficient healers is of no use when they can't stay alive because they keep standing in the wrong spot and getting blown up by one-shot attacks or forget to hide behind an object when the boss casts its Big Death Ray. By the time you get to the Big Bad Guy at the End, you may be dealing with 6 or 7 raid mechanics, which are based heavily on positioning, timing and execution, not just player damage/healing.

It is logical to assume that as ESO grows in size, the complexity of its "halo" top-tier encounters and trials will grow accordingly. This means that, just like WoW, the emphasis will shift from being more about raw performance to being more about the nuances of following mechanics. However, players don't (usually) suddenly become able to perform at a proportionally higher level of skill than their previous best. I think this is why RaidNotifier will become more and more of a necessity to complete ESO's tougher group content.


Some of the other reasons why Raid Notifier-type addons are (to me) a Good Thing:

- They help mitigate the effects of latency, low graphics quality, poor computer performance, and low FPS during raid/trial boss encounters. If you're squeaking by at 20-30 fps on the lowest graphics level, while everyone else is at 60+ FPS running "maximum quality", odds are good that you're going to miss either 1) the telegraphs during the encounter and/or 2) the window to avoid deadly mechanics -- simply because you can't see them and by the time you do you're already dead.

- Builds which rely heavily on bar swapping and timing-based rotations benefit greatly from not needing to tunnel the boss waiting on a particular boss mechanic to occur. As ESO evolves and DPS/healing strategies become deeper and more intricate, it becomes harder and harder to have a "simple" rotation that is also effective at higher levels and in Vet content.

- It helps players with audio-visual processing disabilities (color-blindness, deafness) to be able to participate in content that might not otherwise be accessible to them. It is also helpful for players with other neurological disabilities that make precision hand-eye coordination more challenging than usual. Thanks to RaidNotifier / DBM / etc. more of those players can enjoy the content WITHOUT ZOS needing to make the encounters less difficult.

- (Somewhat a matter of opinion) Making the content easier for less-skilled players to participate in will encourage more of those players to try out dungeons and trials, and hopefully learn and improve the skills needed to complete at a higher level.

runagate

Turelus wrote: »

Mureel wrote: »

Real raiders xD

I think the only people who don't use it are stubborn types who cannot see the benefit of it especially if they are brand new.

I used to be the same when I joined ESO. "I won't use add-ons because they're cheap blah blah" then one day I decided I wanted to actually get better at the game and the tools I needed (buff tracking, damage numbers etc.) were all there if I simply got them.

I used to be the same way about toilets. Taking the easy way out. There's no challenge.

Chadak

lolololol

Raiders would kill chickens and do magic rituals with their blood if that worked dude. Why on earth wouldn't they use any and every advantage they can find, make or steal?

Nobody gets better loot or better rewards or a paycheck or much of anything in life because they didn't take every advantage available to them. You get schmucks at your funeral that might say 'That Bobby, he was a straight shooter, ya know? Never took advantage of anyone in his life', and if that's something you desire, go for it.

You'll almost certainly live broke and die poor and anonymous, but that's not necessarily a poor thing either. You might be the biggest, bestest winner in the eyes of your friends and family, and that's cool if that's so.

But the reality, in raiding as with life, is this: you win and you get rewards or you don't and...you don't.

You don't get better loot if you refuse to use addons like RN. You get no loot if you keep dying and can't win.

Just like in real life; you make money or you don't.

Ever hear of the folks that get millions and billions of dollars because they were just such swell, stand-up guys that never took advantage?

Me neither. And we never will. Winners take every advantage they can find, make or get away with stealing. That's how you win economically, that's how you win politically, that's how you win militarily and that's how you win interpersonally in virtually every facet of human interaction, violent and non-violent altogether.

You might feel better about yourself if you learn to do a raid without any add-on help, just like you might feel better about yourself if you manage to achieve financial success and get whatever you want in life without having to take advantage of other people's mistakes and vulnerabilities along the way...but you're going to be competing with those that can and absolutely do take those advantages in a system that couldn't care less how you win or if you lose, because idealistic notions such as 'fair' don't actually exist. Only winning and losing in just whatever form that takes in the circumstance at hand.

In the end, in raiding as in life, you face a choice.

Do you want to win, or do you want to feel good about yourself because you didn't use advantages you felt might have been unfair or even unethical?

Often enough, you can't have it both ways. Whatever you're happy with is probably the right thing for you to do.

In raiding and in life.

LordSemaj

Sylosi wrote: »

LordSemaj wrote: »

I guess the answer depends on whether you consider a mathematician to be an expert in his field if he uses a calculator. Or an architect or engineer to be competent if he uses drawing software like CAD.

Difference is an architect, engineer, etc are a jobs and require a high level of 'skill' for want of a better word even when using aids like CAD, PvE in MMORPGs is neither a job (though some think it is), nor is highly skilled.

So what you do with aids like raidnotifier is to varying degrees bypass parts of the gameplay (or reduce it to a meaningless level) gameplay that is supposed to be there as part of the fun, challenge, etc of playing a game, and lets face PvE in MMORPGs is already pretty unchallenging as far as gaming goes, so reducing it further is well...

Which is why this is thread is basically a rhetorical question, I mean it is essentially asking will the sort of low grade zombies who care little for gameplay or challenge make use of an addon that makes it even easier for them to complete their meaningless activity, the answer should be obvious...

Okay. Then all boxers should tie one arm behind their back because competing with two is too easy. More challenge fighting one-armed. The default UI also comes unmodded, no ability to see select debuffs or keep track of specific timers in a noticeable way that doesn't get lost in the sea of buff spam. Players use mods, even ones that aren't Raid Notifier, and any mod you use is removing some of the tedium the game is built with. Is fighting one-armed challenging? Sure. Does it make you any less of a man for using all of the tools at your disposal? No. Not unless it's blatant cheating and disallowed by the organizers. If the mod gets banned as a performance enhancing drug I'm sure they'll all stop using it.

We all wear Legendary gear because it makes things less of a challenge. We min max sets for the highest possible dps, even going so far as to spend many hours raiding for that 1% dps increase. People venture into special solo instances to go for Maelstrom weapons because they're slightly better than normal set. Players can and will take every possible advantage available to them short of breaking the rules (and some even do that). Why would addons be any different? If someone wants a challenge, they can go for no death achievements or speed kills. Playing handicapped is a personal choice but we already rarely see it because people would rather stretch out every possible point from their character and make it as overpowered as possible. Challenge be damned, eh?

DoctorESO

.

Anotherone773

Two carpenters show up to build you a house. One has a bunch of hand tools( circa 19th century tech) and the other rolls up in a truck with a trailer in tow full of fiberglass ladders, air compressors, nail guns, electric saws, and drills. Which one is a carpenter and which ones is a noob using bumpers? Ill give you a hint, the carpenter is the one that has $50k in tools and is prepared to take on that large job with the right equipment.

This game has a lot of bugs...like obvious bugs. I would consider it to be in BETA still. I dont think ive made it through even a dungeon or battleground without encountering some sort of bug. Its hard to tell because i just ignore most of them now. It has terrible client/server sync issues. Im using abilities a second or two to late, attacking well after i stopped pushing keys, Boss abilities not firing properly, boss animations not syncing with the ability they are using, etc etc etc. Hell, i even got logged out once while playing because of inactivity. I guess i wasnt gathering fast enough for the judgemental server. And of course i just get randomly kicked every once in a while as do others in my groups. I even had a bug a couple of days ago that wouldnt let me use recipes.It just popped up with an parsing error box or something. I had to right click select from drop down to use recipes for a good couple hours even though i rebooted the client twice.

With all these issues, the question is why wouldnt you use a helper add on to notify you? We already have to deal with work arounds and adapt to bugs, why make life harder than it needs to be?

Paralyse

DoctorESO wrote: »

Paralyse wrote: »

tl;dr as the game gets more complex (mechanics, rotations, builds) RaidNotifier type addons become more and more essential to completing encounters.

I put the tl;dr at the top of my post so that the basic idea could be communicated without needing to read the remainder. It has nothing to do with OP.

DoctorESO

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