Salty People - how are we supposed/allowed to kill you?

Izaki

They send you a salty message after you killed them? Just smile and go on killing things.

Raudgrani

Izaki wrote: »

They send you a salty message after you killed them? Just smile and go on killing things.

This weekend a guy wrote me "you're literally known for being a *** bow ganker, git gud u scrub" (after I killed him, despite being so bad at it). My answer was "Please teach me how to git gud like you, so I too can assault freshly respawned lvl 35's in forward camps". Because that was exactly what he did when I did so, and the only ones around was the three of us. ;-)

lao

Raudgrani wrote: »

lao wrote: »

Raudgrani wrote: »

Ever since I actually started to get a few kills now and then i Cyrodiil, I have had occasional messages being called all sorts of things, or "1v1 u scrub?" etc.
I'm not the teabagger kind of guy, I rarely "corpse watch", and only when it's actually really a strategy I "zerg down" solo players (i.e. they are heading towards a crucial keep fight, or go after a scroll etc.). If someone in my group is 1vX'ed by enemies, I do snipe stack them before they kill my allies and go for me, yes I do. After all - it's supposed to be war, not a dueling tournament. I respect people who seem to be doing "their thing", I have pulled out of "helping" allies when they just stopped and started watching. I'm ok with that.

It's like as soon as you don't have time or possibility to do really thought through skill rotations, you start ti think "Oh, is this guy crying his eyes out now? Maybe I should have let him win?". This problem got way worse since I started to main a Nightblade. I really doesn't matter what you do as a NB, people are pissed off. I've had crap thrown in my direction for all kinds of kills.

Nightblades aside - all you hate messengers: What is a "legit kill"? How are we allowed to kill you before you are about to start discussions about how you are killed? It's getting tiresome, I really don't want to block messages just because some might act like this.

fundamental rules:
1) never group with the plebs
2) never run with the plebs

code of honor:
1) never under any circumstances add on an ongoing fight unless its some giant clusterf_uck. in that case its just a ton of awful idiots and none of them deserves any AP so you may aswell leech as much as you can. a true pvper will however just watch and shake his head and laugh about how easily these simple minded insects are entertained.

2) when engaging an opponent 1v1 try not to gank him off a horse unless the peasent is trying to flee. cowards dont deserve to be treated with honor so slaughter them by any means nessecary.

3) when fighting an opponent 1v1 and an ally adds on the fight immediately pull out and hope for your opponent to kill the peasent. incase of success teabag your ally till he releases. same goes for when another opponent adds on the fight. in case your opponent pulls off and you kill the adder teabag him till he releases. if your initial opponent doesnt pull off and you manage to kill them both, teabag both till they release.

4) incase you see 2 enemies fighting, watch the fight and give the winner time to regen before you attack. from there normal code of honor applies.

this is the code of honor that has been passed through generations by true open world elite pvpers since the early days of DAoC. anyone known to not following the code is scum and needs to die at any occasion possible. its the law and whoever breaks it shall be marked on the wall of shame for eternety.

Basically good points, really. But very few to none follow any of these. Sure there are a few good enemies, that have given me some brief respite before attacking me - but oh, those are few. Really, really few. It's more of a lynching attitude around Cyrodiil, at least in Xbox EU/Vivec. I did participate more in that lynch mob thing earlier, but I do way less now. If I'm pissed off, maybe.

As for #3, if the game was only about killing people, sure thing. But like when I played yesterday, me and another guy (random, actually) went to flag and start siege on Alessia. While we siege, some annoying DK appears and starts to attack my ally. I see him struggle, and I abandon my siege for a few seconds and finish him off quickly with Heavy Attack/Surprise Attack/Executioner - yes, out of stealth, and from behind! LOL
Then, back to siege. I'm not risking the capture of a siege, because of some "1v1 code of honor". If he's stupid enough to engage two guys on siege, he should be prepared to go down.

Thing is, this lynching attitude is in the backbones of people. I have had the "pleasure" to witness it some several times in real life too. I just can't see why some certain people get so upset by it, I mean - people who really are acting nasty, they probably need to shut their message availability off? I'm pretty nice and civil compared to a LARGE number of people out there, at least I'm told so by many.

its true very few ppl still follow the code nowadays. what ppl dont realize is that following the code is for the best of all of us. like the first 2 years in DAoC were pretty much like ESO nowadays. FFA zerg fights nonstop but eventually (after about 50-60% of the population had quit due to beeing bored of the mindless zerging) the rest of us realized how incredibly fun and competitive 8v8 fights could be when you actually had the luck to get them without beeing interupted by adders. over the next few years it was something like an unwritten rule to not add on other groups fights cos you would hope they would return the favor. and as a matter of fact most did. out of that an extremely competitive community evolved that keeps the game going till this very day (15 years later) if it wasnt for this solely player driven initiative the game would have died a decade ago and never evolved to the #1 group orientated open world pvp game in gaming history it is now. 18 years after its release the live server is still going, the game never had to go f2p due to lack of income and theres still big private servers coming out every now and then that ppl go to to play older patches again. for the most part the same ppl that played the game almost 2 decades ago already.

and yes what you said about 3) is the main reason why objective based pvp is awful and will inevitably lead to the death of the game cos it encourages zerging. objectives belong into pvp minigames, they never had and never will have a place in every day open world pvp. they sort of existed in DAoC too but capturing them didnt give any RP. (equivalent to AP) they were part of specific mechanics such as relic raids (scrolls in eso) and gaining access to the PvPvE dungeon. (IC in eso) its kinda funny how ZOS copied so many aspects from DAoC and managed to fundamentally screw them in a way that promotes zerging and therefor the accelerated death of ESO on so many levels.

this is what the casual influx has done to MMO´s and why i keep saying that casuals have no place in MMO´s cos their influence is the reason why not a single modern MMO has had any remotely noticable impact when compared to old gems such as UO, DAoC, EvE, SWG, etc. the entire genre has turned into a giant cashgrab rather than creating long lasting games that create loyal fanbases that stick with their game over decades. nowadays its just the casual crowd ruining game after game and hopping to the next big release to ruin that aswell cos developers try to please them as best as they can to milk even more cash of them. if you want a game that lasts then creating a zerg friendly enviroment that pleases casual low skill players is the exact wrong direction to go. you want the exact opposite instead.

OrphanHelgen

As long as you don't use any exploits, I would say it's legit no matter what you do. Animation cancle is a part of legit btw.

Rainraven

zyk wrote: »

If someone wants to play by a set of rules they and their friends have devised, that's their prerogative. But that doesn't mean it's cool to be toxic towards people who don't adhere to their subculture.

To me, AvA isn't Streetfighter Online or Highlander Online. To me, it's a team and objective based game with dynamic elements of strategy and tactics. I enjoy fighting for objectives. I used to be into First Person Shooters, but I never played Deathmatch modes. I was never into Streetfighter games. I only enjoy team and objective based PVP games. Even if objective play is broken in ESO, I still play according to objectives because that's what I enjoy. Even when I play completely solo, I am usually trying to make a difference for my team. I'm speaking generally - I actually do a bit of everything in eso and enjoy impromptu1v1 encounters.

To me, all members of my faction are my teammates. The goal is to win each fight regardless of other factors. It's against my values to let a very good player or group 1vX/farm my less experienced/capable teammates without helping them. I play all styles, so sometimes I'm on the other side of that. When I get zerged down or Xv1'd by decent players, I'm 100% fine with it because I put myself in that position.

Further, players create builds to accommodate the roles they want to perform. Those roles may not include open world 1v1; at least not against all builds. Don't expect others to taker your bait for an honorable 1v1 away from the fight when that's not why they're in Cyrodiil and/or may not be built for that fight.

Yeah. See, this is the thing: we have the rules of the game, and we have common courtesy, and everything else depends on perspective. It's cool that people share those perspectives, but adhere to my code or else scrub [rageface] is just silly.

A few months ago a new member of our guild went into the newb campaign for the first time and got ten minutes of salt from a max-CP player running a lowbie alt for violating this precious unwritten code. I have an opinion about who was being a *** in that scenario, and I hope he went back to the big boy campaign where he won't put people off PVP.

VaranisArano

All this talk about the Code is making me think of Pirates of the Carribbean.

ktdotexe

[deleted]

Derra

Raudgrani wrote: »

Nightblades aside - all you hate messengers: What is a "legit kill"? How are we allowed to kill you before you are about to start discussions about how you are killed? It's getting tiresome, I really don't want to block messages just because some might act like this.

If you play the game with the assumption that everyone playing it wants atleast a chance to participate/have fun it´s not really that hard.

Are you intentions to have fun or are your intentions for your opponent to not have fun?

Derra

zyk wrote: »

If someone wants to play by a set of rules they and their friends have devised, that's their prerogative. But that doesn't mean it's cool to be toxic towards people who don't adhere to their subculture.

Would you call it toxic when a set group of players regularly goes out of their way to chase/kill solo players to destroy their fun in the game?

I´m talking about abandoning a siege you started to chase a single player from fargyl to blackboot and when they don´t catch you wait 5+ mins in sneak on the way back - because quite frankly said: that´s also toxic behavior in my book.

Mureel

VaranisArano wrote: »

For anyone who is going to whine about getting killed, there is no such thing as a "legit kill." Except for their own, of course.

Its all about perspective. I roll my eyes when I get horribly killed when I'm solo and 3-4 enemies find me. Check in with me in an hour, and I'll probably have hunted down a solo player with 3-4 of my fellow EP. So I don't get salty. I've got no room to complain.

The only kill I legitimately felt bad about was successfully sniping some poor AD noob standing completely oblivious outside of Blue Road Keep reading his map. I don't normally gank but he had no clue I was there and he was just such a tempting target!

Lol so true. I didn't realise til after I started that the EP guy was Afk or something- I felt so bad for killing an afk guy - but I was all 'act now or die!!!' Mode as I was getting a last dolmen way up north and did not want to have to galump my sorry arse all the way back there!

Once you attack then who knows when they suddenly stomp your face in, so had to follow the open to its end.

zyk

Derra wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

If someone wants to play by a set of rules they and their friends have devised, that's their prerogative. But that doesn't mean it's cool to be toxic towards people who don't adhere to their subculture.

Would you call it toxic when a set group of players regularly goes out of their way to chase/kill solo players to destroy their fun in the game?

I´m talking about abandoning a siege you started to chase a single player from fargyl to blackboot and when they don´t catch you wait 5+ mins in sneak on the way back - because quite frankly said: that´s also toxic behavior in my book.

That sounds hilarious. I usually think it's funny when a group is so triggered they go far out of their way to chase me.

It's hard to answer without knowing more about your relationship with that group. The general rule in groups is not to chase single targets unless they're being a significant pest or have been one in the past. I've been that pest and am okay with dealing with the ramifications. When a group does an extended chase, they are most likely trying to send a message. I think we're fair game in that scenario.

ForsakenSin

few of my rules when playing PVP is this..

If i am going towards a point and i see a enemy my first thing to do is get off the horse and block few times standing still.

If the enemy blocks as well i just pass him if he attacks then i go in for the kill

i have story when we both blocked and then just stood there showing off the different mounts we had ect lol

If there is 1vs 1 i stay clear and watch if enemy wins i give him time to recover
If it comes to 1vs 2 then i join in

cowards running away hiding deserve to die

when you kill somebody don't T bagg him, it makes you look like a sore winner , T bag somebody only if they done it to you.

Ive never understand when im 1vs 1 and then 3 of his buddy join kill me and then T bag me.. it makes you look like a like a childish brainless idiotic kid.

When i kill somebody if i have time i would do humble emotes or if the fight was long do the faint to show some respect to the fighter.

Ley

I think every time another player whispers you in pvp to complain about you killing them, you should gain a pvp rank. To take it a step further, I think you should also be allowed to level past grand overlord using this system.

VaranisArano

Ley wrote: »

I think every time another player whispers you in pvp to complain about you killing them, you should gain a pvp rank. To take it a step further, I think you should also be allowed to level past grand overlord using this system.

You're gonna need a lot more than 50 ranks then...

catalyst10e

All i needed to know was "nightblade" and "snipe" to know why you get hate mail.

I dont send hate mail, but I know the frustration that comes with trying to play the game, and go through rotations, just to die to someone spamming a single button. the fact the skill is a bit bugged, where you could be hit with mutliple shots before ever realizing you're being attacked adds to that frustration.

So some people get it in their heads that if they can just fight you in a 1v1 (ie under their perceived idea of "fariness") and prove to themselves they're better than you, because they do a rotation and you "only know how to spam 1 button". But I'll let you in on a little secret.... there is no winning. If you beat them its because you were using cheap tactics, (the old "you didn't win, I lost" mentality) and if you lose the fight it "proves" to them they were superior and will hold it over you forever, long after the conflict has ended and you logged off. They'll find you out in the world and get their zerg to fight just you, and t bag cuz of that one time you snipe spammed them.

Some people have their rules, and sure, sometimes if I recognize a solo player out in the world I'll let him pass by, provided he doest try to kill me or my group members. Or I find Frenemies at the towns, I've even whispered a few just to ask if i could take the town and buy some armor and leave. Those guys helped me out even when yellows showed up. But ultimately, the rules are set by the game, you in cyrodiil? cool, you gon die.... a lot. pay no mind to the people who cant handle a death, just because it came from another player.

Side note, anyone doing 1v1 fights inbetween keeps currently being fought over, deserve to have the 1v1 broken up by a zerg. go duel someplace else or take that fight to a more secluded area away from the main battles.

SHADOW2KK

Ley wrote: »

I think every time another player whispers you in pvp to complain about you killing them, you should gain a pvp rank. To take it a step further, I think you should also be allowed to level past grand overlord using this system.

Lol, I would make Grand Overlord within 1 minute on a fresh pvp alt then hehe.

Slick_007

Derra wrote: »

Would you call it toxic when a set group of players regularly goes out of their way to chase/kill solo players to destroy their fun in the game?

you are complaining that someone who voluntarily goes into a pvp zone gets hunted down and killed by other players? the exact reason they went in there in the first place?

I´m talking about abandoning a siege you started to chase a single player from fargyl to blackboot and when they don´t catch you wait 5+ mins in sneak on the way back - because quite frankly said: that´s also toxic behavior in my book.

you need to stop pvp'ing and maybe then you'll cry less. Im guessing it was you they hunted down. The aim of pvp is to get players to attack other players. Objectives like keeps give them a location where they can do battle without having to find each other in the wilderness randomly. It does not mean that is the only place players should attack, or stay.

There is no honour in dying. Excluding cheating, you do what you can to kill the other person. I hunted someone down in swtor once, its not even the distance between 2 keeps, killed them, killed their flag defenders which is where he ran to and captured it. then i got a whisper telling me how dishonourable i was. For doing my job. Sucks to be them. I thought it was hilarious that they got so cut up about it

Cut out all the garbage about this stupid code. You go in there to kill and to win. If you arent doing this, you are a detriment to your team.

There is a place for what you want: its called duels. Those do NOT take place in cyrodil.

Lucky28

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Don't use Shield Breaker.

or detect pots. that's an important one too XD

Derra

zyk wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

If someone wants to play by a set of rules they and their friends have devised, that's their prerogative. But that doesn't mean it's cool to be toxic towards people who don't adhere to their subculture.

Would you call it toxic when a set group of players regularly goes out of their way to chase/kill solo players to destroy their fun in the game?

I´m talking about abandoning a siege you started to chase a single player from fargyl to blackboot and when they don´t catch you wait 5+ mins in sneak on the way back - because quite frankly said: that´s also toxic behavior in my book.

That sounds hilarious. I usually think it's funny when a group is so triggered they go far out of their way to chase me.

It's hard to answer without knowing more about your relationship with that group. The general rule in groups is not to chase single targets unless they're being a significant pest or have been one in the past. I've been that pest and am okay with dealing with the ramifications. When a group does an extended chase, they are most likely trying to send a message. I think we're fair game in that scenario.

I don´t get what ppl find hilarious about this. These ppl have been doing that since 1.6 days every time you encounter them.

When i say regularly i don´t mean a couple of times. I mean every time you encounter them over a period of two and a half years by now.
I usually instaqueue guest campaign when they notice me.

But yeah. Hilarious.

Derra

Slick_007 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Would you call it toxic when a set group of players regularly goes out of their way to chase/kill solo players to destroy their fun in the game?

you are complaining that someone who voluntarily goes into a pvp zone gets hunted down and killed by other players? the exact reason they went in there in the first place?

I´m talking about abandoning a siege you started to chase a single player from fargyl to blackboot and when they don´t catch you wait 5+ mins in sneak on the way back - because quite frankly said: that´s also toxic behavior in my book.

you need to stop pvp'ing and maybe then you'll cry less. Im guessing it was you they hunted down. The aim of pvp is to get players to attack other players. Objectives like keeps give them a location where they can do battle without having to find each other in the wilderness randomly. It does not mean that is the only place players should attack, or stay.

There is no honour in dying. Excluding cheating, you do what you can to kill the other person. I hunted someone down in swtor once, its not even the distance between 2 keeps, killed them, killed their flag defenders which is where he ran to and captured it. then i got a whisper telling me how dishonourable i was. For doing my job. Sucks to be them. I thought it was hilarious that they got so cut up about it

Cut out all the garbage about this stupid code. You go in there to kill and to win. If you arent doing this, you are a detriment to your team.

There is a place for what you want: its called duels. Those do NOT take place in cyrodil.

Care to point out where i´m crying?
I´m just stating that in my opinion if your main goal when entering a pvp area is not to win/have fun but to make it unfun for your opponents - if that´s the case you´re a toxic player the game would be better off without.

Also what garbage about what code? I´ve not talked about some sort of code.
You´re making way too many assumptions and get all worked up on this topic because what exactly?

Qbiken

Derra wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

If someone wants to play by a set of rules they and their friends have devised, that's their prerogative. But that doesn't mean it's cool to be toxic towards people who don't adhere to their subculture.

Would you call it toxic when a set group of players regularly goes out of their way to chase/kill solo players to destroy their fun in the game?

I´m talking about abandoning a siege you started to chase a single player from fargyl to blackboot and when they don´t catch you wait 5+ mins in sneak on the way back - because quite frankly said: that´s also toxic behavior in my book.

If it´s the same group constantly chasing you then I can agree with you (would even call it harassment to be honest), but when randoms from the faction zerg does it occasionally then I wouldn´t be mad about it (but that´s me personally).

Derra

Qbiken wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

If someone wants to play by a set of rules they and their friends have devised, that's their prerogative. But that doesn't mean it's cool to be toxic towards people who don't adhere to their subculture.

Would you call it toxic when a set group of players regularly goes out of their way to chase/kill solo players to destroy their fun in the game?

I´m talking about abandoning a siege you started to chase a single player from fargyl to blackboot and when they don´t catch you wait 5+ mins in sneak on the way back - because quite frankly said: that´s also toxic behavior in my book.

If it´s the same group constantly chasing you then I can agree with you (would even call it harassment to be honest), but when randoms from the faction zerg does it occasionally then I wouldn´t be mad about it (but that´s me personally).

100% agree on that. I don´t get mad when random faction zerg chases me down after i´ve been a pest in their back.

But it´s the grp around the same individual since the end of 1.6 - so i don´t really know what to call them. A daily pug with the same coregrp of people?

Ley

VaranisArano wrote: »

Ley wrote: »

I think every time another player whispers you in pvp to complain about you killing them, you should gain a pvp rank. To take it a step further, I think you should also be allowed to level past grand overlord using this system.

You're gonna need a lot more than 50 ranks then...

Yep that's where the second part comes in. Only way to lvl past alliance rank 50 is by hate messages from other players.

zyk

Derra wrote: »

I don´t get what ppl find hilarious about this. These ppl have been doing that since 1.6 days every time you encounter them.

When i say regularly i don´t mean a couple of times. I mean every time you encounter them over a period of two and a half years by now.
I usually instaqueue guest campaign when they notice me.

But yeah. Hilarious.

Yeah, as an isolated incident, it is really funny. Like I said, your relationship with this group was not clear to me.

It's difficult for me to relate to what you're describing. I tend to think I've stepped on a lot of toes on PC/NA and get chased and focused on a bit, but I haven't heard of anything quite like this before.

So this group who you don't really know anything about will spend a majority of their time chasing you and figuring out where you are so they can chase you some more? There's no history between you and them other than them trying to zerg you down every chance they get? It gets so bad that you have to leave the campaign?

Raudgrani

catalyst10e wrote: »

All i needed to know was "nightblade" and "snipe" to know why you get hate mail.

I dont send hate mail, but I know the frustration that comes with trying to play the game, and go through rotations, just to die to someone spamming a single button. the fact the skill is a bit bugged, where you could be hit with mutliple shots before ever realizing you're being attacked adds to that frustration.

So some people get it in their heads that if they can just fight you in a 1v1 (ie under their perceived idea of "fariness") and prove to themselves they're better than you, because they do a rotation and you "only know how to spam 1 button". But I'll let you in on a little secret.... there is no winning. If you beat them its because you were using cheap tactics, (the old "you didn't win, I lost" mentality) and if you lose the fight it "proves" to them they were superior and will hold it over you forever, long after the conflict has ended and you logged off. They'll find you out in the world and get their zerg to fight just you, and t bag cuz of that one time you snipe spammed them.

Some people have their rules, and sure, sometimes if I recognize a solo player out in the world I'll let him pass by, provided he doest try to kill me or my group members. Or I find Frenemies at the towns, I've even whispered a few just to ask if i could take the town and buy some armor and leave. Those guys helped me out even when yellows showed up. But ultimately, the rules are set by the game, you in cyrodiil? cool, you gon die.... a lot. pay no mind to the people who cant handle a death, just because it came from another player.

Side note, anyone doing 1v1 fights inbetween keeps currently being fought over, deserve to have the 1v1 broken up by a zerg. go duel someplace else or take that fight to a more secluded area away from the main battles.

I'd get it if I was only sniping single players being zerged down, alright. But the whole reason for this question *how* you are allowed to kill, without it being "wrong". Seems as soon as you don't walk straight up to them, bash them once - step back and wait for them to attack, you are a coward, unfair and all that.
Last time I had a "lol ur such a *** player" message, was when I killed a guy trying to walk away, by light attack/surprise attack a few times. I mean, just sorry. All your death recaps won't be a study in excellent skill rotations and animation canceling.

And the whole thing about "[snip] player" etc. Yes, a number of guys are way better than me, with incredible builds (or using cheats), that can kill me multiple times - these are never the ones complaining, neither getting killed or when they kill me. It's just these mediocre zergers with like 7000 alliance kills, that played PVP daily since 2014 it seems.... ;-)

[Edited to remove profanity]

Dorrino

You can't prevent people from getting frustrated. It's out of your control entirely. Both in a game and irl.

So you can't avoid salty whispers, no matter what you do. Even being afk might get you one:)

What you can do though is express your respect to the people whispering you.

I assume it's not your intention for them to feel bad?

Then say it.

I usually apologize:) It's not my fault that they feel bad. But they do. And it's a great opportunity for me to help another human being to feel a bit better. Not because i have to. Because they are hurt.

zyk

Dorrino wrote: »

I usually apologize:) It's not my fault that they feel bad. But they do. And it's a great opportunity for me to help another human being to feel a bit better. Not because i have to. Because they are hurt.

The truth is finally exposed. Your addon is just a honeypot for you to find people to practice psychotherapy on when they send you tells.

Dorrino

zyk wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

I usually apologize:) It's not my fault that they feel bad. But they do. And it's a great opportunity for me to help another human being to feel a bit better. Not because i have to. Because they are hurt.

The truth is finally exposed. Your addon is just a honeypot for you to find people to practice psychotherapy on when they send you tells.

This is actually totally correct on the phychotherapy part:)

Most hate whispers though have nothing to do with the addon though.

Datthaw

How I feel about it, open field I will let 1v1s go and try not to zerg anyone (unless it's a straight up ganker, they all need to die) once you get around keeps and objectives it's anything goes. You go to an area like that you need to just expect to be attacked. It if a war after all.

Vermintide

Well, as a nightblade, I naturally have no code of honour. Therefore it would be hypocritical of me to expect others to have one. But generally I think the players who get salty over stuff like this are just sore losers struggling to reconcile the idea that other people's playstyles may counter to their own.

Obviously I'm not going to engage a brawler build in a stand-up 1v1 on open ground- They'd win, because they would have the advantage. And naturally, that player would want to have the advantage, so that he could win. But instead of admitting that, these players have convinced themselves it's just other players being scrubs for not wanting a "fair fight".

Likewise if you're one of those nigh-immortal super elites, constantly ranking in the top 10 for your alliance, always rolling with the same group of hardcore veterans. Of course you're going to get hunted down by a zerg. It's the only way any normal players are going to be able to stop your group from single-handedly taking the whole map. Deal with it.

That said, *** you and your dawnbreaker.