PTS Update 17 - Feedback Thread for Skills Advisor

Autumnhart

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

This is the official feedback thread for the Skills Advisor. Specific feedback that the team is looking for includes the following:

• Did you try any of the advanced builds? If so, what did you think of them?
• Was there any point where you were confused, or didn’t know where to spend skill points?
• If you completed a suggested build, what did you think of the total package of abilities?
• Do you have any other general feedback?

* Yes, some for stam and mag NB. They weren't terrible.
* No.
* Not terrible, not optimal. Guessing they were created by someone who doesn't play -- good on paper but not in practice recommendations.
* Needs polish and more exposition. [Eg: ill-advised morph for magicka-oriented combat; ill-advised morph for PVE combat] It's a good idea and these stock builds will be improvements for some but don't roll it out until it's finished. It's not finished yet. There are people on this forum who are highly knowledgeable about classes and skills, you should solicit their input specifically.

starkerealm

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

If you completed a suggested build, what did you think of the total package of abilities?

Honestly, not sure if I completed a suggested or advanced build, but the result was bonkers, and not in a good way. For example, the Warden Tank build recommends buying passives in the Animal Companions skill line before purchasing an active. This may be a function of how templates on the PTS work, but the result was bizarre.

Additionally, the system doesn't seem to understand the concept of a backbar weapon, and offers no guidance on what it thinks should be slotted there.

Now, it's possible this system works better when you're actually leveling, and culling out abilities you can't purchase. It would also help if the alternate builds were presented more clearly. I've seen a lot of people baffled by "weird suggestions," like ignoring stamina morphs.

Easiest fix would, probably, be to have a build selection window when you first load up a character, which can be changed later using the current interface.

Back bar builds are probably another good element to include. Simply to walk newbies through that concept, and some kind of indicator for where the skills should be slotted.

feyii

LadyLavender wrote: »

Do you have any other general feedback?
That double border is REALLY subtle, even knowing I should be looking for it.

This, so much. I noticed the border around the skills before but was wondering all the time, why it was around some skills but not around others. Just noticed now that is marks "advised" skills for the selected build. This definately needs to be explained somewhere. It is way too subtle.

Apache_Kid

I hope this doesn't go live without a complete overhaul. I don't have the PTS as I'm on Xbox but I've read all of the feedback and it is not good.

As someone who helps new players all the time who I find in zone, on the forums here, or from a guild, I can already imagine the confusion it is going to cause when I am trying to help someone morph and pick their skills and I will be telling them one thing while this level-up advisory or whatever you wana call it will be telling them something else.

This game is complicated for new players but it seems like some of the changes ZoS makes to help them actually hurts them.

Look back to the decision to hide all of the skill lines until you do pre-req activities to unlock them. Go to any starting area and it's filled with people in zone chat asking how to unlock these skills and wondering how to do it. It was an absolutely terrible change that they have stuck with and I have the feeling this level advisory is going to end-up in the same way.

Please don't let this go live anywhere near the current-state. The feedback I have read here is scary.

Mojmir

Skills advisor, brought to you by the people who created group finder. Lol

antimawkish

* Did you try any of the advanced builds? If so, what did you think of them?
Did not try them in combat, just previewed at the respec shrine and made judgements based on experience.

*Was there any point where you were confused, or didn’t know where to spend skill points?
I proceeded with blind faith and just clicked directly off the adviser and "E'd" until I hit a morph, at which point it wasn't too hard to figure out I had to click it before I could "E" on through.

*If you completed a suggested build, what did you think of the total package of abilities?
I have provided specific, brief feedback below.

*Do you have any other general feedback?

1. The descriptions are pretty generic fare. It'd be nice if there was a second sentence pointing out the general purpose of the build (e.g., "This build is best for keeping teammates alive in a group setting.").
2. Although I would not use any of the builds I previewed, I thought they generally made reasonable choices in guiding newbies toward at least focusing on one role and attribute. This isn't hate on hybrids, more-so on teeth-gnashers who dps using puncture.
3. It's pretty telling that you never advise 2hander build. I appreciated that bow got to make a primary showing through wardens, at least, but stamina was very heavy on dual weild.
4. It took me a bit to figure out there were multiple builds available, and I mostly found that in my attempt to tell it to STFU for suggesting I had chosen the wrong morph on some of my better-liked characters (don't judge my liquid lightning, bro).

Sorc

(Sorc) War Mage: Too many skills (although the advisor does not make this clear, clannfear and bound aegis need to be on both bars to stay active). Power Surge seems ill-advised, especially for what appears to be a generic block build. Also, why would you put Dark Exchange, which costs stamina, on a build that implies you should block with a shield (ala Defensive Posture)?

(Sorc) Elemental Arcanist: I am assuming unstable familiar is meant to be removed as you unlock further skills because no morph is suggested and there are more abilities than can fit if you are putting pet+aegis on both bars as well as inner light on at least one. This is not a build I would run, but it seems like reasonable choices were made for someone to begin with.

(Sorc) Sorcerer Initiate: Again, too many abilities if you run aegis and pets on both bars. I was confused by many choices in this build (e.g., clannfear, crystal blast) and am left to assume it is for pvp. This leads me to a general point in the "Advisor Settings" descriptions in that build purposes are not specified (e.g., with this one I would specify that it is for new players who plan on soloing overland and quest content (or pvp, as I admittedly don't understand these skill choices).

(Sorc) Eldritch Mender: Too many abilities at max level -- which is fine, as they can tweak. Bolt Escape seemed like a bizarre choice. Again, generic choices that I wouldn't want to see in vet dungeons but would be fine for learning.

Templar

(Temp) Luminous Warrior: Why in the bloody hell is Piercing Javelin there, knocking back enemies on your dual weild bar and annoying the growls out of groups? I couldn't finish previewing the build past caltrops as I hit the 3 untrained abilities limit, but it looked reasonable up to that point beyond javelin.

NB

(NB) Blood Magus: Heavy on the NB skills to begin with -- nice! I ended with some empty skill slots, which felt like a good amount of room to grow, and I loved the emphasis on class abilities that highlight magblade's ability to heal through violence.

lucky_Sage

Caff32 wrote: »

Also, so many things like Double Take v. Mirage and Dark Cloak v. Shadowy Disguise are so subjective. Not sure how you could advise one over another without more information.

things like that maybe give to a way each abilty morph could be used for different play styles

starkerealm

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

Nightblade Umbral Assassin.

The Skills dialogue shows Two Handed Uppercut skill framed as if it's meant to be part of this build, but the skills adviser never prompts the player to buy that skill. When all advised skills are purchased for this build in Skills Adviser the build only has nine slottable skills open, not the usual ten.

The description of the build says , "Blindside your enemies with a flurry of poisonous strikes, then disappear without a trace." This seems inaccurate. There is only one Poison damage skill in the build. The rest are Disease or Physical damage. Shadow Cloak is not included (nor Alchemy), so how your going to disappear is a bit of mystery.

Bonus points in that Umbral Assassin actually picks skills from DW, 2h, and Bow. I think it culls the list to your equipped weapons. But the result is peculiar.

LadyLavender

starkerealm wrote: »

Bonus points in that Umbral Assassin actually picks skills from DW, 2h, and Bow. I think it culls the list to your equipped weapons. But the result is peculiar.

Actually, it was suggesting weapons on some of mine that I had never equipped (bow on a dw only, dw on a bow only), so it doesn't limit to equipped weapons but I'm not sure how it chooses.

Grimm13

Still testing it out but first thing I noticed is it's giving me choices not matching the weapon (Bow) that I want to use on my Warden. It wants me to switch to sword and shield.

Be nice if I could lock it to what type of weapon or skill tree I want to explore. The Advisor should work with my set path I want not send me down a different one.

antimawkish

Grimm13 wrote: »

Still testing it out but first thing I noticed is it's giving me choices not matching the weapon (Bow) that I want to use on my Warden. It wants me to switch to sword and shield.

Be nice if I could lock it to what type of weapon or skill tree I want to explore. The Advisor should work with my set path I want not send me down a different one.

It sounds like you have selected a tank or other role. Use the second tab of the skill adviser (took me a moment to find it -- it's on the top of the adviser tool) and select the stamina DPS role from that window. The default is for bow on a stamden when I looked at it earlier.

Iselin

Good job with highlighting the skills that are part of a build with this latest patch. It's much more obvious now with the corner highlight instead of just a 2nd thin border... kudos!

I haven't tested all the classes and only up to level 25 for one, Sorcerer. But I do think that you've made the basic sorc build too basic in a way that doesn't help enough what I presume is your primary target customers, brand new players.

Unlike the other sorc builds that advise taking class, weapon and armor skills the basic one focuses exclusively on class skills. That is a mistake. By suggesting appropriate weapon and armor skills you steer players correctly toward focusing on the correct weapon and armor to use with a build.

By not doing so with the most basic build you are in fact encouraging a hybrid build that uses any old weapon and any old armor. Hybrid builds in ESO are indeed possible but they are advanced or expert builds that new players just don't have the skill to pull off properly and that typically require collecting and using gear sets (e.g. Pelinar's Aptitude) that are not easy for a new player to get their hands on.

RaddlemanNumber7

LadyLavender wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Bonus points in that Umbral Assassin actually picks skills from DW, 2h, and Bow. I think it culls the list to your equipped weapons. But the result is peculiar.

Actually, it was suggesting weapons on some of mine that I had never equipped (bow on a dw only, dw on a bow only), so it doesn't limit to equipped weapons but I'm not sure how it chooses.

I tried out the Umbral Assassin build on a blank template character that has an Ice Staff equipped in both bars, just to open up the second skill bar. So, Skills Adviser advised the DW and Bow skills without the matching weapons being slotted.

Grimm13

One of the biggest areas of confusion in the game is how different skills and equipment effect to hit and damage. If the advisor could allow compare two choices and tell how/ what it changes would be great.

Especially confusing is all the different types of damage in the game. At least have it teach us how it works and what to look for. Now taht would be some advice.

fgoron2000

i tried the umbral assassin. I know that it's still early yet, but it must have actually been incomplete. There were 3 skills, and one of them an ultimate, that were not morphed at all. why not? if a base skill is preferred to either morph, then why bother having the morphs in the game at all.

I did like that as you progressed through the suggestions, you were offered actives and passives in a logical manner to parallel the way that a character would progress. You weren't advised to add an active and morph it right away, or all the levels of a passive weren't recommended all in a row.

It would be nice if there was a bit of explanation why one morph is advised over the other for a skill, and some basic trait suggestions would be good too.

...oh, and a mundus stone recommendation

ElFonz0

My interpretation of the morphless skill suggestions is that either morph would be suited for that build, but I can certainly see how that's confusing.

I do agree that some kind of explanation for why certain skills/morphs are chosen would help give this system some more clarity, as well as making it more obvious that there are multiple builds

fgoron2000

ElFonz0 wrote: »

My interpretation of the morphless skill suggestions is that either morph would be suited for that build, but I can certainly see how that's confusing.

I do agree that some kind of explanation for why certain skills/morphs are chosen would help give this system some more clarity, as well as making it more obvious that there are multiple builds

that may very well be...but if so, then they should say "advised" on both instead of on neither....anyway, we'll see tomorrow if there are any changes after tomorrows PTS maintenance...it doesn't say patch maintenance, but one would hope...

Caff32

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

This is the official feedback thread for the Skills Advisor. Specific feedback that the team is looking for includes the following:

• Did you try any of the advanced builds? If so, what did you think of them?
• Was there any point where you were confused, or didn’t know where to spend skill points?
• If you completed a suggested build, what did you think of the total package of abilities?
• Do you have any other general feedback?

The Skill Adviser for Deathweaver (mNB) is pretty underwhelming. Several skills and morphs are left out. For example, Hemorrhage is a must use passive but it wasn't recommended. In fact, almost no passives were recommended from the basic skill lines. Most of these are must purchase abilities.

I believe to be truly effective, it needs more refinement. PvE vs. PvP builds at least. I know you can only go so far and that dividing PvE into group and solo, etc. might be too much and could confuse players. However, there should be a few more passives and other skills that should be suggested.

Azarai

So, I tested out the Sorcerer build for the War Mage, a bit by accident, and it is not clear or useful with many of the selections.

Primarily, it seems heavily ill-advised is the War Mage skipping the Puncture ability, going directly to Low Slash. This seems like it would be a major issue for newer players, as it would be somewhat confusing how they are supposed to level up the Undaunted Tree to get Inner Fire without being able to do their basic function as a Tank.

This is a bit more of a personal preference, but I would lean more towards Dark Deal than Dark Conversion. The War Mage has a lot of magicka to play with, but stamina will remain very necessary, plus magicka regens through block. Overall, the extra 900 magicka cost seems to more than offset the reduced stamina cost.

The Dark Magic tree in particular is poorly filled out-not having Blood Magic, Persistence, and Exploitation as passives do not help, especially since it makes Dark Conversion and Restraining Prison both better, buff your team, and heals you for max health. Taking Suppression Field for damage is also good, but the healing from the other Morph can be just as useful, so I might even put that as player choice, rather than one ill-advised.

Energized as a passive is in no way necessary for the build, but it will help a small bit with DPS, and make leveling the character slightly faster, so why not.

Taking Deadly Bash as a passive is a small, but noticeable passive to use, which will help with resources. Upgrading to Absorb Magicka is another useful passive, very necessary in many boss fights. Taking Puncture and a morph is vital to tanking as a whole, and Shield Discipline could be an effective way to help with newer tanks.

Finally, not suggesting an Armor Line at the start is a poor way to start out tanks. Throwing the HA passives in the Skills Advisor will tell them the best way to build. The description DOES mention Heavy Armor, but nothing in the actual advisor about taking the passives.

And since the players will be leveling up the Undaunted Line, after getting puncture, the passive abilities are both extremely useful, especially with the synergy fixes coming up. And Undaunted Mettle is just free stats.


Overall, I feel like this CAN be a fascinating build for newer players, but there are a few issues, namely: Not having them select the first ability for three trees, not suggesting an armor to start on, and just taking more of the passives and morphs to help out with starting up.

LadyLavender

I leveled my baby warden on EU and tried out ONLY taking the advised skills from the skill advisor (for the warden initiate), and I have some major concerns for new players (who are likely to be relying on the advisor quite heavily)

• I am curious if the top skill is the most recommended, or if they are in some arbitrary order.
• It is pretty clear based on the advised morphs that they are building a magicka dps, even though this is the initiate, which should be more of an all-arounder. If at any point they decide to go stamina, or try out tanking or healing, they are going to need to respec. Yes, it costs less for babies, but keep in mind they are also making less gold (while also frantically spending that gold on bag upgrades, bank upgrades, recipes, potions, etc…). That ill-advised warning is likely to frighten a lot of unknowing players, shoe-horning them into the magicka dps build.
• Passives are recommended early, before they are even likely to be useful (for example, the first healing passive is unlikely to do much with the first green balance skill unlocked). It would be better to spend the skill point on something more immediately useful, and get the passive once it can actually affect something.
• A suggested ultimate skill didn't appear until level 8, some time after the ultimate was available for purchase. This is your oh-*** skill, and should be chosen ASAP, imo.
• At level 11, there was still no guidance for weapon skills (which means I didn't slot any, since I was strictly following the advisor), racial passives, armor passives, guild skills, alliance war skills, or crafting skills…which means a new player is missing out on a LOT of skills of varying necessity. I also only had 7 active skills, with 2 passives (both locked) and a morph listed as the next skills I should buy, which makes me doubt there will be 10 active skills to slot when weapon swapping unlocks in 4 levels. In other words, the players most in need of the advisor are going to be handicapped by it.

I have a few recommendations in line with this (though I have no idea how to actually implement them):

• Take out any passives with minor effects until the skills they interact with have been purchased.
• Put in a placeholder weapon skill at level 4 or 5, or advise to slot one at this time. Better yet, add one more suggested skill and draw it from something other than class skills. At level 5, this should be the first racial passive.
• The first time a morph is offered, open the build menu or draw the player's attention to the direction of their choices. They should know the stamina morph is only ill-advised if they are building a magicka character, that melee might be preferred over ranged for a tank, etc.

Iselin

LadyLavender wrote: »

At level 11, there was still no guidance for weapon skills (which means I didn't slot any, since I was strictly following the advisor), racial passives, armor passives, guild skills, alliance war skills, or crafting skills…which means a new player is missing out on a LOT of skills of varying necessity. I also only had 7 active skills, with 2 passives (both locked) and a morph listed as the next skills I should buy, which makes me doubt there will be 10 active skills to slot when weapon swapping unlocks in 4 levels. In other words, the players most in need of the advisor are going to be handicapped by it.

I've been saying that for a couple of weeks: the basic skill adviser template is probably the worst one for new players. Ironic since it's the default. New players much more than anyone else need weapon and armor guidance at the very least. The other templates are actually better for them.

I guess ZOS didn't want to play favorites by doing a magicka DPS/healer hybrid as the default but that is, in fact, the easiest way for a new player to play.

Nolic1

Did you try any of the advanced builds? If so, what did you think of them?

Yes I think for a starting player they advise some good skill choices and help guide the player.

Was there any point where you were confused, or didn’t know where to spend skill points?

No not really but I am a vet player new players might be confused by this if you had the advisor system explain maybe why the skill was chosen it might help.

If you completed a suggested build, what did you think of the total package of abilities?

The idea of a template build it self is really good and does guide player that are new to the idea of the respected role and does help them. The skills them selves where a good choice I feel to help players understand there role and how to play it based on the skill options for vet players it will leave them confused cause the selected skills goes away from the meta and makes them question the choices.

Do you have any other general feedback?

The only thing I would add is a skill description of why they are taking the skill and how it helps them. Other then thatI feel this is a good start for any new players coming into the game. I feel the community options in builds can be lacking in what can and can not be used for the roles and this helps players see they can used other classes for many of the games content.

Other then that this is a great start for new players and does help guide them as the design of the system entails.

dpencil1

This has probably already been mentioned, but if you choose a morph that is not recommended, the recommended morph stays in the skill advisor window. Make three of these contrary choices and you end up with no new skill choices suggested because the window remains full for the morph selections you didn't take. Maybe I was missing something, but I couldn't see a way to get rid of those suggestions, having purposefully chosen the other morphs of several skills, which then made further use of the skill advisor impossible.

This also leads to thinking that the non-suggested morph is "bad" for that build, which is often not true.

VaranisArano

dpencil1 wrote: »

This has probably already been mentioned, but if you choose a morph that is not recommended, the recommended morph stays in the skill advisor window. Make three of these contrary choices and you end up with no new skill choices suggested because the window remains full for the morph selections you didn't take. Maybe I was missing something, but I couldn't see a way to get rid of those suggestions, having purposefully chosen the other morphs of several skills, which then made further use of the skill advisor impossible.

This also leads to thinking that the non-suggested morph is "bad" for that build, which is often not true.

Yes, there were plenty of times when the skill advisor rejected morphs that gave me greater self-healing in favor of morphs that did more damage. I usually prefer to level up with more self-healing and swap to damage for the end-game.

seventhirtyseven_

I really like it. Just have a problem. Everytime I open the skills menu there is a ui error and it says it has something to do with the skills advisor. Does anyone know a possible mod that might be causing this problem?

VaranisArano

seventhirtyseven_ wrote: »

I really like it. Just have a problem. Everytime I open the skills menu there is a ui error and it says it has something to do with the skills advisor. Does anyone know a possible mod that might be causing this problem?

Here's a list of currently conflicting addons. If you don't see one of yours on this list, you could try turning them on and off on-by-one, or half-by-half and narrowing down from there to see what's causing the issue.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/395008/known-conflicting-addons-dragon-bones

seventhirtyseven_

VaranisArano wrote: »

seventhirtyseven_ wrote: »

I really like it. Just have a problem. Everytime I open the skills menu there is a ui error and it says it has something to do with the skills advisor. Does anyone know a possible mod that might be causing this problem?

Here's a list of currently conflicting addons. If you don't see one of yours on this list, you could try turning them on and off on-by-one, or half-by-half and narrowing down from there to see what's causing the issue.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/395008/known-conflicting-addons-dragon-bones

Thank you for the list, It's probably Lorebooks. Yeah I was gonna check one by one but the server went down shortly after I noticed the error.