regarding block costs and countering perma blocking.

dsalter

why not give it the streak treatment?
for every second you hold block it's cost goes up by 20% for 2 seconds, stacking.
this punishes holding block for long periods of time but encourages active timed blocks.
this will impact PvE at a minimum and impact PvP perma blocking quite hard.

Liofa

Permablocking in PvP is already RIP next patch . See my comment here for more info :

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4728154#Comment_4728154

dsalter

Liofa wrote: »

Permablocking in PvP is already RIP next patch . See my comment here for more info :

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4728154#Comment_4728154

problem is, we dont know much about how it'll be nerfed, but following zenimax patterns it'll be a blanket nerf, which we dont need more of

code65536

dsalter wrote: »

we dont know much about how it'll be nerfed

Except they already told us exactly how they intend to nerf it. They already stated in November the means by which they will nerf block cost--by moving the flat reduction to the start of the formula (which is a huge change, BTW). And in December, they said that they would decrease the base cost by 20% as compensation.

If these two changes go live as stated, the lowest possible block cost will increase nearly 4-fold from 88 to 336.

Liofa

We do know how they are going to nerf it , at least most of it . Here :

Adjust the block calculations so that cost reduction happens first (might have to reduce the block cost slightly as a result)
Investigate adding something to Champion passives, or an item set to increase the block cost

Block cost will be reduced by 20% so it will be a buff for everyone who’s not using cost reduction jewelry.

If you read my comment I linked earlier , that is the answer . There is no need to complicate things . If they do this change , there won't be any permablockers next patch . At the moment , you can reduce your block cost to 95 without Defensive Posture . After patch , it'll be 365 with same amount of Sturdy and same amount of CP .

It looks like , looking at the second part of first quote , there will be much more counterplays against blocking targets . I assume a new CP that increases damage against blocking targets or increase block cost of enemy when hit with light/heavy attacks . These are just assumptions but I don't see any other CP that can be used as a counterplay against block . Also , again at the second part of first quote , there will be a new item set that increases block cost of enemies .

As I said , with 365 block cost with full investment in blocking , there is no way you can permablock . On top of this , there will be a new CP and an item set that will be especially effective against blocking targets .

Problem will be solved next patch . No need to take it further . As a PvE tank player , my block cost will be almost 4 times higher next patch because of PvP reasons . That is more than enough of a nerf .

Lylith

kind of a *** solution, isn't it, if zos is specifically targeting permablockers?

the op has the right of it, make the costs stack. there's no need to bitchslap everyone.

Ragnarock41

Liofa wrote: »

Permablocking in PvP is already RIP next patch . See my comment here for more info :

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4728154#Comment_4728154

and I really, really hope so.
I'm disgusted with how many permablocking mDKs are around.

Now DK needs some PvP buffs, but first permablock needs to go away from PvP and never return.

PS: I dont understand why zos doesnt put this into battle spirit. that way it would be so much easier to mess with it.

WrathOfInnos

FYI block cost can be as low as 49 with alteration mastery. The proposed changes would make that 315 next patch, or 542% increase. Good luck finding a decent tank when their resource management becomes 6X harder next patch. Unless, maybe just maybe, a PVP issue could be fixed without breaking PVE.

Lylith

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

FYI block cost can be as low as 49 with alteration mastery. The proposed changes would make that 315 next patch, or 542% increase. Good luck finding a decent tank when their resource management becomes 6X harder next patch. Unless, maybe just maybe, a PVP issue could be fixed without breaking PVE.

maybe...

dsalter

Lylith wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

FYI block cost can be as low as 49 with alteration mastery. The proposed changes would make that 315 next patch, or 542% increase. Good luck finding a decent tank when their resource management becomes 6X harder next patch. Unless, maybe just maybe, a PVP issue could be fixed without breaking PVE.

maybe...

imps get fat?

ChildOfLight

Can't they just nerf those stupid MagDKs without breaking the game?

Quantum_V

MDKs don’t need a nerf though, what you talking about? Lol

ChildOfLight

Quantum_V wrote: »

MDKs don’t need a nerf though, what you talking about? Lol

"YES DONT NERF MY CHARACTER PLIS"

Holy crap this forum...

Leandor

Make siphoner star increase block cost instead of all resource costs. Reduce the percentage you can apply at once, but make it stack up to 20 times, with a full stack increasing block cost by a flat, unreducable number, e.g. the original designed cost without any reductions.

No influence on pve since you will never get hit by a player, doesn't eliminate block's use since initial applications don't have a large effect but will wreck permablock builds.

EDIT: In order to adjust effectiveness, make the cost stack drop off if you stop blocking for 3 to 4 seconds.

Quantum_V

ChildOfLight wrote: »

Quantum_V wrote: »

ChildOfLight wrote: »

Quantum_V wrote: »

MDKs don’t need a nerf though, what you talking about? Lol

"YES DONT NERF MY CHARACTER PLIS"

Holy crap this forum...

Don’t nerf my character if its not needed.*

I honestly just can’t be bothered to write a biblical text composed of numbers that you will probably not understand explaining why mDKs don’t need a nerf. All I can suggest is: go do some research regarding the topic before making your mouth and your butthole undifferentiatable.

I am sorry, I am not going to answer to this great demonstration of harrassing and regrettable behaeviour.



Just letting you know I am seasoned enough to have my own opinion, widely shared by some honorable members of this community caring much more for the game balance and health than their little circle of interests.

Not everyone is like "PLEASE DONT TOUCH MY MAIN". Some people do care for the game health.
I know this could sound weird to people like you.

Your comment is reported btw. Have a good day.

You need to grow some thicker skin.

I responded in such a way due to your false claim that says that I’m just defending the class from the nerf hammer because it’s my main. You’re the one misjudging here.

My opinion is based on math and the current state of the game – from analysis of DK passives and how they’re manifested in the current patch, as half of the passives aren’t useful – to the out dated skills and their effects, for instance getting nothing but defile from a 250 costing ult compared to it being a regular spammable for wardens. I can go on and on...

Any mDK knows how much we sacrifice in order to block somewhat viably. Your average mDK cannot permablock and have damage/sustain simultaneously. The reason people can’t overcome mDKs only viable defense mechanism strongly gravitates around l2p issues sadly.

About having your own opinion, I’ll quote Harlan Ellison:

”You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.”

[EDIT] I’m all down for nerfing actual permablocking builds, as long as you don’t affect your average mDK or build that relies on it.

Happily, this is the direction ZoS is taking, as the block changes coming next patch does that precisely.

deathcoyrwb17_ESO

Thats quite a drastic change imo.
And one without much thought to it.

Gonna destroy PvE for sure.
It'll remove permablockers in PvP, especially the DKs, yes. But every other class is gonna suffer a whole lot more, so many builds depend on tactical blocking to stay competitive.

Is this really the best ZOS devs can come up with?
This fix is basically gonna cause even more balancing problems further down the line.
The state of the game is literally deteriorating to the unbalanced, chaotic state it was during launch in 2014 where it shows the devs clearly know nothing about balancing.

WrathOfInnos

I could almost see "Tactical Blocking" becoming a thing if stamina regen resumed immediately when block was released, instead of the (2s?) delay.

With the current system you can block for 1s every 3s and regen the same stam as permablocking (zero). It makes reactive blocking pointless.

Maybe the cost increase could be combined with bringing back regen while blocking?

Conduit0

I can't wait to see the trials wipe fests that are going to occur when Tanks are completely out of resources within the first 30 seconds of a boss fight.

Lylith

deathcoyrwb17_ESO wrote: »

Thats quite a drastic change imo.
And one without much thought to it.

Gonna destroy PvE for sure.
It'll remove permablockers in PvP, especially the DKs, yes. But every other class is gonna suffer a whole lot more, so many builds depend on tactical blocking to stay competitive.

Is this really the best ZOS devs can come up with?
This fix is basically gonna cause even more balancing problems further down the line.
The state of the game is literally deteriorating to the unbalanced, chaotic state it was during launch in 2014 where it shows the devs clearly know nothing about balancing.

quoted for truth.

dsalter

Lylith wrote: »

deathcoyrwb17_ESO wrote: »

Thats quite a drastic change imo.
And one without much thought to it.

Gonna destroy PvE for sure.
It'll remove permablockers in PvP, especially the DKs, yes. But every other class is gonna suffer a whole lot more, so many builds depend on tactical blocking to stay competitive.

Is this really the best ZOS devs can come up with?
This fix is basically gonna cause even more balancing problems further down the line.
The state of the game is literally deteriorating to the unbalanced, chaotic state it was during launch in 2014 where it shows the devs clearly know nothing about balancing.

quoted for truth.

part of why i asked the main question, a blanket nerf is never a smart plan to cure a specific problem

Ragnarock41

Lylith wrote: »

deathcoyrwb17_ESO wrote: »

Thats quite a drastic change imo.
And one without much thought to it.

Gonna destroy PvE for sure.
It'll remove permablockers in PvP, especially the DKs, yes. But every other class is gonna suffer a whole lot more, so many builds depend on tactical blocking to stay competitive.

Is this really the best ZOS devs can come up with?
This fix is basically gonna cause even more balancing problems further down the line.
The state of the game is literally deteriorating to the unbalanced, chaotic state it was during launch in 2014 where it shows the devs clearly know nothing about balancing.

quoted for truth.

Tactical blocking does not seriously exist. lets stop lying to each other now . reduced base block cost will be a buff if that ''tactical blocking'' really exists. Or are you one of those 3 shield play, all sturdy mDKs who claim to be only blocking ''tactically''?

IF you're not that, you will be fine. If you're one of those guys, then you are the problem here.

Nelson_Rebel

Conduit0 wrote: »

I can't wait to see the trials wipe fests that are going to occur when Tanks are completely out of resources within the first 30 seconds of a boss fight.

This is EXACTLY what will happen if the OP’s idea was implemented. Seriously what an AWFUL idea xD


There’s no way this guy has EVER tanked a serious Vet Trial if he thinks increasing costs by 20% every two seconds is a good idea lmfao


bro go tank vet AA or vet Hel Ra last boss with that BS

the_man_of_steal

What ZOS really needs to do is turn off the 1 second global cooldown of stam regen if you press block even for an instant. I don't mind losing stam for blocking at all, but we shouldn't be double hit if we block and also have to wait a second for our stam regen to start back up again.

Please fix this. @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

code65536

the_man_of_steal wrote: »

What ZOS really needs to do is turn off the 1 second global cooldown of stam regen if you press block even for an instant. I don't mind losing stam for blocking at all, but we shouldn't be double hit if we block and also have to wait a second for our stam regen to start back up again.

It's 2 seconds, not 1.

And yes, getting rid of that would be at least a step in the right direction. Because right now if someone "tactically" blocks once every 2s, they are getting the exact same regen penalty as someone who is just holding down the RMB.

paulsimonps

code65536 wrote: »

the_man_of_steal wrote: »

What ZOS really needs to do is turn off the 1 second global cooldown of stam regen if you press block even for an instant. I don't mind losing stam for blocking at all, but we shouldn't be double hit if we block and also have to wait a second for our stam regen to start back up again.

It's 2 seconds, not 1.

And yes, getting rid of that would be at least a step in the right direction. Because right now if someone "tactically" blocks once every 2s, they are getting the exact same regen penalty as someone who is just holding down the RMB.

Indeed, if they want to make this more action combat oriented, and by god why.... They need to also reward us for playing that way and not just add penalties for not.

Joy_Division

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

Conduit0 wrote: »

I can't wait to see the trials wipe fests that are going to occur when Tanks are completely out of resources within the first 30 seconds of a boss fight.

This is EXACTLY what will happen if the OP’s idea was implemented. Seriously what an AWFUL idea xD


There’s no way this guy has EVER tanked a serious Vet Trial if he thinks increasing costs by 20% every two seconds is a good idea lmfao


bro go tank vet AA or vet Hel Ra last boss with that BS

Not knowing, not researching, not asking does not deter the legions of people on these forums to nerf classes, playstyles, and tactics that they themselves do not use.

KramUzibra

code65536 wrote: »

dsalter wrote: »

we dont know much about how it'll be nerfed

Except they already told us exactly how they intend to nerf it. They already stated in November the means by which they will nerf block cost--by moving the flat reduction to the start of the formula (which is a huge change, BTW). And in December, they said that they would decrease the base cost by 20% as compensation.

If these two changes go live as stated, the lowest possible block cost will increase nearly 4-fold from 88 to 336.

Good

KramUzibra

Quantum_V wrote: »

ChildOfLight wrote: »

Quantum_V wrote: »

ChildOfLight wrote: »

Quantum_V wrote: »

MDKs don’t need a nerf though, what you talking about? Lol

"YES DONT NERF MY CHARACTER PLIS"

Holy crap this forum...

Don’t nerf my character if its not needed.*

I honestly just can’t be bothered to write a biblical text composed of numbers that you will probably not understand explaining why mDKs don’t need a nerf. All I can suggest is: go do some research regarding the topic before making your mouth and your butthole undifferentiatable.

I am sorry, I am not going to answer to this great demonstration of harrassing and regrettable behaeviour.



Just letting you know I am seasoned enough to have my own opinion, widely shared by some honorable members of this community caring much more for the game balance and health than their little circle of interests.

Not everyone is like "PLEASE DONT TOUCH MY MAIN". Some people do care for the game health.
I know this could sound weird to people like you.

Your comment is reported btw. Have a good day.

You need to grow some thicker skin.

I responded in such a way due to your false claim that says that I’m just defending the class from the nerf hammer because it’s my main. You’re the one misjudging here.

My opinion is based on math and the current state of the game – from analysis of DK passives and how they’re manifested in the current patch, as half of the passives aren’t useful – to the out dated skills and their effects, for instance getting nothing but defile from a 250 costing ult compared to it being a regular spammable for wardens. I can go on and on...

Any mDK knows how much we sacrifice in order to block somewhat viably. Your average mDK cannot permablock and have damage/sustain simultaneously. The reason people can’t overcome mDKs only viable defense mechanism strongly gravitates around l2p issues sadly.

About having your own opinion, I’ll quote Harlan Ellison:

”You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.”

[EDIT] I’m all down for nerfing actual permablocking builds, as long as you don’t affect your average mDK or build that relies on it.

Happily, this is the direction ZoS is taking, as the block changes coming next patch does that precisely.

LOL MDK's are one of the primary classes that perma Block with without sustain issues since their abilities and ultimate give back Stam and those abilities can be blocked casted. They are also able to be crazy Tanky with high dps. I'm not saying mdks need a nerf, nerfing perma block will effectively fix this issue

ak_pvp

KramUzibra wrote: »

Quantum_V wrote: »

ChildOfLight wrote: »

Quantum_V wrote: »

ChildOfLight wrote: »

Quantum_V wrote: »

MDKs don’t need a nerf though, what you talking about? Lol

"YES DONT NERF MY CHARACTER PLIS"

Holy crap this forum...

Don’t nerf my character if its not needed.*

I honestly just can’t be bothered to write a biblical text composed of numbers that you will probably not understand explaining why mDKs don’t need a nerf. All I can suggest is: go do some research regarding the topic before making your mouth and your butthole undifferentiatable.

I am sorry, I am not going to answer to this great demonstration of harrassing and regrettable behaeviour.



Just letting you know I am seasoned enough to have my own opinion, widely shared by some honorable members of this community caring much more for the game balance and health than their little circle of interests.

Not everyone is like "PLEASE DONT TOUCH MY MAIN". Some people do care for the game health.
I know this could sound weird to people like you.

Your comment is reported btw. Have a good day.

You need to grow some thicker skin.

I responded in such a way due to your false claim that says that I’m just defending the class from the nerf hammer because it’s my main. You’re the one misjudging here.

My opinion is based on math and the current state of the game – from analysis of DK passives and how they’re manifested in the current patch, as half of the passives aren’t useful – to the out dated skills and their effects, for instance getting nothing but defile from a 250 costing ult compared to it being a regular spammable for wardens. I can go on and on...

Any mDK knows how much we sacrifice in order to block somewhat viably. Your average mDK cannot permablock and have damage/sustain simultaneously. The reason people can’t overcome mDKs only viable defense mechanism strongly gravitates around l2p issues sadly.

About having your own opinion, I’ll quote Harlan Ellison:

”You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.”

[EDIT] I’m all down for nerfing actual permablocking builds, as long as you don’t affect your average mDK or build that relies on it.

Happily, this is the direction ZoS is taking, as the block changes coming next patch does that precisely.

LOL MDK's are one of the primary classes that perma Block with without sustain issues since their abilities and ultimate give back Stam and those abilities can be blocked casted. They are also able to be crazy Tanky with high dps. I'm not saying mdks need a nerf, nerfing perma block will effectively fix this issue

OK, what should MDK use for defense?

Shields? I suppose a d/r DK can work, but doesn't synergise with sets as much as say a magblade/sorc, and doesn't have as high mag capabilities.

Wings: RIP, Limited projectiles (4 not enough openworld), takes and not reflects dots/status effect parts. (i.e. clench dot, flare defile) Doesn't reflect many abilities, bird, pulse, bow ult, meteor. Bugged and sometimes doesn't reflect/refresh.

Kiting: Mist is absolutely trash, limits mag heavily, can't use abilities/be healed and bugs by being snare randomly. Blobs vid explains more. Tried FM, and whilst its decent enough in some situations, it doesn't fit well with a DK, and unlike an NB there is no cloak to go in as a mag defense.