Can we please take reflect skills out of pvp?

KingJ

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

Gothrock wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

Of all the problems out there reflectables really isn't one. You just need to change your tactics and adjust. Like fighting sorc wards or a stamina toon or a auto healing Templar.

It's good that things make you think.

Hmm, is there any class, which forces DKs to "change tactics and adjust", by completely changing their build against certain one?

A dot-heavy DK has to shake up their plan entirely to scratch a templar.

Not really a DK will have hard time against a DK the magplar won't be able to purge all of the temps dots.As a magplar you can't purge all the dots or you will run out of magic which means you have to think about when to purge and what abilities to purge.

VaranisArano

KingJ wrote: »

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

Gothrock wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

Of all the problems out there reflectables really isn't one. You just need to change your tactics and adjust. Like fighting sorc wards or a stamina toon or a auto healing Templar.

It's good that things make you think.

Hmm, is there any class, which forces DKs to "change tactics and adjust", by completely changing their build against certain one?

A dot-heavy DK has to shake up their plan entirely to scratch a templar.

Not really a DK will have hard time against a DK the magplar won't be able to purge all of the temps dots.As a magplar you can't purge all the dots or you will run out of magic which means you have to think about when to purge and what abilities to purge.

So you've also pretty well described a DK reflecting. Most DK builds aren't built to run wings with 100% uptime so they have to think about when to reflect and what abilities to reflect. Now, in a dueling scenario where you know ahead of time that your opponent is a ranged magblade who isn't going to adjust their build to deal with wings, why not spam wings? However, in most PVP scenarios you don't know your opponent, you may be facing multiple opponents, and sustaining other abilities is also important so spamming wings to win is not a very good strategy for the majority of PVP.

OtarTheMad

WacArnold wrote: »

As a mnb all my skills are reflectable. I know thats not a popular opinion but being in a bubble, fighting against snb, and wings feels pretty one sided.

It's not hard to counter a reflect heavy DK or Warden really. Just needs some creativity in order to counter the defensive skills they use. Fear is your friend, try having both a melee bar and a range bar (invest in a resto staff or lightning staff as well for DKs).

Rotation is simple- fear, ambush, concealed (they probably have broken CC by now), cloak out. Put down path of darkness, wall of elements (DKs are melee so therefore they need to be near you). Use Force Pulse as well (careful not to light weave too much or at all). Fear them again (try to time the fear when reflect is down so burst combo lands). Use Entropy as well, not reflectable and will boost spell damage. Also proxy det is your friend as well, use it for burst as well as Grothdarr proc and destro ult.

ZOS does not need to nerf wings, you just need to be creative sometimes. A lot of us PvPers have different bar set ups for different situations and fighting a reflective heavy class/player is no different. NBs have high burst whether it is melee or range, you just have to use the right combo and time things.

PlagueSD

ShadowMonarch wrote: »

mvffins wrote: »

Force Pulse, Sap Essence, Meteor are the 3 I spam when someone has reflect up. The first question ZOS should ask before they take something out of PvP is whether it can easily be spammed, reflect skills do not follow under this category as most cost a lot of resources.

Thats not true exactly. In a 1v1 duel vs a magdk friend of mine he can keep wings up with a 100% uptime nearly and still be fine.

Don't need wings, I just use Swarm Mother's set and hold block. Anyone attacking be from range is now in melee range getting a beatdown.

TheShadowScout

WacArnold wrote: »

Can we please take reflect skills out of pvp?

...my main PvP character fights as archer girl.
You realize what this means for me when a DK flaps their wings right?
...
Do you see me whining for reflex skill removal?
No, I just adapt.

Yeah, I have even less skills to get past reflect then a magica NB would. I still spam what I have when faced with a DK, and if it isn't enough, I just accept my defeat and make up for it by taking down others on the battlefield. Thus go the fortunes of warfare.

Why do people even think they should be able to faceroll everything with the same skill rotation?? That's like saying, "paper" needs to be nerfed so I can win with "rock" every time... which would completely defeat the whole idea. Same here. If "the usual" doesn't work, try and find something that -does-!

I had a similar issue with my sorceror once... met a DK, got wrecked as my ice bolts and beloved crystals got thrown back in my face. Changed my skill layout, and came back with lightning staff equipped, and loaded with mines, curse and force pulse - streaking and shielded - and easily wiped the floor with the very same DK as he came back to turn in the daily quest.
Adapt and overcome!

Oreyn_Bearclaw

This reminded me of a rage tell I got the other day on my sorc. There was a rather tanky DK, just sitting there getting pounded on. He was certainly good at what he was doing (taking damage) but I didnt see him actually kill anyone. His wings were flapping on cooldown. I stood about 15 feet away, and just started casting curse on cooldown from the first explosion, otherwise I was just spamming my execute.

I end up getting the KB, he rage tells that I am a wrath spammer. I responded that I would be happy to use other skills once you stop flapping your wings, but I would prefer not to kill myself in the meantime. Haha.

Like or not, wings are a Hard Counter to your playstyle (and mine) even if the classes are different. Honestly, I mostly ignore DKs once I see their wings flap. Most of them arent going to kill me anyway. I will just spam curses and executes and let my melee friends finish them off.

KingJ

VaranisArano wrote: »

KingJ wrote: »

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

Gothrock wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

Of all the problems out there reflectables really isn't one. You just need to change your tactics and adjust. Like fighting sorc wards or a stamina toon or a auto healing Templar.

It's good that things make you think.

Hmm, is there any class, which forces DKs to "change tactics and adjust", by completely changing their build against certain one?

A dot-heavy DK has to shake up their plan entirely to scratch a templar.

Not really a DK will have hard time against a DK the magplar won't be able to purge all of the temps dots.As a magplar you can't purge all the dots or you will run out of magic which means you have to think about when to purge and what abilities to purge.

So you've also pretty well described a DK reflecting. Most DK builds aren't built to run wings with 100% uptime so they have to think about when to reflect and what abilities to reflect. Now, in a dueling scenario where you know ahead of time that your opponent is a ranged magblade who isn't going to adjust their build to deal with wings, why not spam wings? However, in most PVP scenarios you don't know your opponent, you may be facing multiple opponents, and sustaining other abilities is also important so spamming wings to win is not a very good strategy for the majority of PVP.

I like how you change your argument from duels to open world.Yea i can have a high uptime on wings on my magdk and its not focused on being able to spam wings before the nerfs to stam dk I could have it up a entire fight.If your doing a dueling tournament for example most don't allow you to change your skills.You build your character expecting to face anyone.You build a well rounded build.You never know who your gonna face past the first round tbh.You guess who you think will win a fight and build around that.Open world its safe to assume your gonna face a range magic build be it the random Magsorc/magblade if you solo you expect to face everything.Yea wings are not great open world because Zos nerfed the crap out of it and haven't fixed the many issues.Their some good times wingd are useful against scrubs like when I killed a kid with his own bow ultimate.Still a highlight of my ESO career.
If I was gonna go magic during a tournament I would rather go magwarden because absorbs are powerful as all hell.

3/5 classes have a way to shut down ranage magic builds.Warden templars and DK.Most people on this forum use the rock paper scissor argument in thread like this only when its a playstyle they don't enjoy but fine with it when their no rock/paper/scissor in the rest of the game.Their barely any counter play left in this game.

Chelo

Gothrock wrote: »

No need to nerf or remove anything.
Just adding "unreflectable" to strife and its morphs (or even to only swallow soul as pvp-oriented morph) will solve this problem.

Been saying this since the start, just make Strife and morphs a “beam” like Force Pulse and problem solve, DKs still have a counter to most of our DMG Skills but our main spamable still viable to fight them...

BohnT

Chelo wrote: »

Gothrock wrote: »

No need to nerf or remove anything.
Just adding "unreflectable" to strife and its morphs (or even to only swallow soul as pvp-oriented morph) will solve this problem.

Been saying this since the start, just make Strife and morphs a “beam” like Force Pulse and problem solve, DKs still have a counter to most of our DMG Skills but our main spamable still viable to fight them...

No it was already dumb to make Force pulse unreflectable. As a magnb you can avoid 100% of the damage of a dk if you play smart and vice versa. That is balanced what isn't balanced if you can avoid all damage while still being able to use your Main spammable against them.
That isn't Balance that's favoritism and we had and still have enough of that ***

Runschei

*every dragonknight flaps their wings while reading*

ak_pvp

Runschei wrote: »

*every dragonknight flaps their wings while reading*

*Flaps angrily*

ak_pvp

KingJ wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

KingJ wrote: »

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

Gothrock wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

Of all the problems out there reflectables really isn't one. You just need to change your tactics and adjust. Like fighting sorc wards or a stamina toon or a auto healing Templar.

It's good that things make you think.

Hmm, is there any class, which forces DKs to "change tactics and adjust", by completely changing their build against certain one?

A dot-heavy DK has to shake up their plan entirely to scratch a templar.

Not really a DK will have hard time against a DK the magplar won't be able to purge all of the temps dots.As a magplar you can't purge all the dots or you will run out of magic which means you have to think about when to purge and what abilities to purge.

So you've also pretty well described a DK reflecting. Most DK builds aren't built to run wings with 100% uptime so they have to think about when to reflect and what abilities to reflect. Now, in a dueling scenario where you know ahead of time that your opponent is a ranged magblade who isn't going to adjust their build to deal with wings, why not spam wings? However, in most PVP scenarios you don't know your opponent, you may be facing multiple opponents, and sustaining other abilities is also important so spamming wings to win is not a very good strategy for the majority of PVP.

I like how you change your argument from duels to open world.Yea i can have a high uptime on wings on my magdk and its not focused on being able to spam wings before the nerfs to stam dk I could have it up a entire fight.If your doing a dueling tournament for example most don't allow you to change your skills.You build your character expecting to face anyone.You build a well rounded build.You never know who your gonna face past the first round tbh.You guess who you think will win a fight and build around that.Open world its safe to assume your gonna face a range magic build be it the random Magsorc/magblade if you solo you expect to face everything.Yea wings are not great open world because Zos nerfed the crap out of it and haven't fixed the many issues.Their some good times wingd are useful against scrubs like when I killed a kid with his own bow ultimate.Still a highlight of my ESO career.
If I was gonna go magic during a tournament I would rather go magwarden because absorbs are powerful as all hell.

3/5 classes have a way to shut down ranage magic builds.Warden templars and DK.Most people on this forum use the rock paper scissor argument in thread like this only when its a playstyle they don't enjoy but fine with it when their no rock/paper/scissor in the rest of the game.Their barely any counter play left in this game.

IIRC Bow ult isn't reflectable anymore Or maybe I ran into one of the bugs. Hard to tell.

Datthaw

For the people saying use force pulse on a magnb... you have no idea how the class works. I'm not saying no reflect skills either. Just if you think magnb are gonna slot force pulse over swallow soul or funnel then just go back to your stam warden because you're opinions are void

Waffennacht

MNB most certainly does not need a buff

ShadowMonarch

Waffennacht wrote: »

MNB most certainly does not need a buff

Does it need another nerf to its stealth mobility, rotations, ability costs, and sustain?

Certainly not

Curragraigue

Joy_Division wrote: »

WacArnold wrote: »

As a mnb all my skills are reflectable. I know thats not a popular opinion but being in a bubble, fighting against snb, and wings feels pretty one sided.

Hi ZoS,

I don't care that my opponents are slow and I'm fast.

I don't care that my opponents have melee centric skis and I have great ranged skills.

I don't care that my opponents are meant to stand their ground whereas I have excellent maneuverability/escape.

I don't care the my opponents lack the high instant burst damage from their regular abilities whereras I have it.

I don't want my opponents given anything to compensate them for all these disadvantages if it inconveniences my build.

This ^

You can take reflects out when DKs and Temps have the ability to escape manoeuvre like Sorcs and NBs

HowlKimchi

A vamp magicka nightblade vs a magDK has gotta be the most one-sided matchup in the game favoring the magDK.

Good thing eso pvp isn’t 1v1, as magdks( who are slow af) can largely be ignored by mag NBs

Joy_Division

KingJ wrote: »

3/5 classes have a way to shut down ranage magic builds.Warden templars and DK.Most people on this forum use the rock paper scissor argument in thread like this only when its a playstyle they don't enjoy but fine with it when their no rock/paper/scissor in the rest of the game.Their barely any counter play left in this game.

If a templar is shutting down a range magic build, that's a L2P issue. Eclipse is CC breakable and does not function against a player with CC immunity.

Takes-No-Prisoner

ak_pvp wrote: »

Runschei wrote: »

*every dragonknight flaps their wings while reading*

*Flaps angrily*

wait, you can tell when each wing is portraying a personality trait??

Draxys

ShadowMonarch wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

MNB most certainly does not need a buff

Does it need another nerf to its stealth mobility, rotations, ability costs, and sustain?

Certainly not

Not changing reflects doesn’t make that a NB nerf.

This thread is absolutely hopeless. Yet sadly, ZOS have always seemed to cater to the people who don’t make an attempt at understanding the game. That’s how we ended up with this current mess of a game. Let’s hope they don’t do it this time.

Ragnarock41

PlagueSD wrote: »

ShadowMonarch wrote: »

mvffins wrote: »

Force Pulse, Sap Essence, Meteor are the 3 I spam when someone has reflect up. The first question ZOS should ask before they take something out of PvP is whether it can easily be spammed, reflect skills do not follow under this category as most cost a lot of resources.

Thats not true exactly. In a 1v1 duel vs a magdk friend of mine he can keep wings up with a 100% uptime nearly and still be fine.

Don't need wings, I just use Swarm Mother's set and hold block. Anyone attacking be from range is now in melee range getting a beatdown.

Good for you, but you completely missed the point of wings and this post tho.

paallterrain148

Thank you all for posting counter play to reflects. I'm having this issue on my magblade and was looking for help. Found it, got some stuff to work on now.

AverageJo3Gam3r

And MDKs are almost entirely countered by magplars extended ritual. Sounds like a pretty balanced Rock Paper Scissors meta to me.

leepalmer95

4 pages and this question was answered in the first post....


Use force pulse.

Derra

I personally think the block bonus against projectiles is far worse than reflect or absorb abilities - except for shimmering shield bc that one being basically free to cast makes it pretty broken.
The morph that returns ultimate should see a cost increase and loose the refund of magica for absorbed abilities. It´s still a strong absorb and one of the best buffs in the game.

thankyourat

Best thing to do as a magblade when you see a mag dk open world is to ignore them while you fight other people or just run away. They can reflect all your abilities and they know they can. No point in getting into a 5 minute game of cat and mouse. As for dueling run a high magicka damage shield build. You can get a pretty thick harness shield as a magblade that will allow you to stall while you wait for a chance to pressure them while there wings are down. Or use heavy armor. Mag dks these days have really high damage. If you are playing light armor magblade without a shield you are going to have a hard time against a mag dk 1v1 especially if you are vamp as well. I play light armor magblade without shields open world and what i do against mag dks is i will los them i will run behind every tree if they chase me they are burning mag and stam sprinting and keeping wings up. Usually i will get some hate mail from dks but they just want me to play into their hands and i won't. I usually tell them I'll stop being annoying as soon as you do. Somehow they feel their cc spam and wings is more respectable than my cc spam and cloak

arkansas_ESO

Joy_Division wrote: »

WacArnold wrote: »

As a mnb all my skills are reflectable. I know thats not a popular opinion but being in a bubble, fighting against snb, and wings feels pretty one sided.

Hi ZoS,

I don't care that my opponents are slow and I'm fast.

I don't care that my opponents have melee centric skis and I have great ranged skills.

I don't care that my opponents are meant to stand their ground whereas I have excellent maneuverability/escape.

I don't care the my opponents lack the high instant burst damage from their regular abilities whereras I have it.

I don't want my opponents given anything to compensate them for all these disadvantages if it inconveniences my build.

Didn't you just describe magic sorc, who has 3 out of 4 of their usual skills (Mage's Wrath, Curse, Force Pulse) unreflectable?

Domander

WacArnold wrote: »

And please everybody else who suggests another skill make a melee magblade and please show me how good it works vs skilled players and not chumps. Because you see so many around they must kick ass right?

The problem is that magicka melee nightblade doesn't work well anymore.

It doesn't mean reflects should be changed.

BohnT

Domander wrote: »

WacArnold wrote: »

And please everybody else who suggests another skill make a melee magblade and please show me how good it works vs skilled players and not chumps. Because you see so many around they must kick ass right?

The problem is that magicka melee nightblade doesn't work well anymore.

It doesn't mean reflects should be changed.

it works perfectly fine. Ask @KenaPKK about how bad meele magnb is atm

Subversus

Joy_Division wrote: »

WacArnold wrote: »

As a mnb all my skills are reflectable. I know thats not a popular opinion but being in a bubble, fighting against snb, and wings feels pretty one sided.

Hi ZoS,

I don't care that my opponents are slow and I'm fast.

I don't care that my opponents have melee centric skis and I have great ranged skills.

I don't care that my opponents are meant to stand their ground whereas I have excellent maneuverability/escape.

I don't care the my opponents lack the high instant burst damage from their regular abilities whereras I have it.

I don't want my opponents given anything to compensate them for all these disadvantages if it inconveniences my build.

Hi Joy,

I don't care that I have all that when in a duel a magdk can spam wings during the whole duel effectively neutering my sustain and damage.

I don't want my opponents to have a skill that has absolutely no counterplay and can be spammed to a close to 100% uptime.