Can we please take reflect skills out of pvp?

WacArnold

As a mnb all my skills are reflectable. I know thats not a popular opinion but being in a bubble, fighting against snb, and wings feels pretty one sided.

Chelo

Just use Force Pulse...

Savos_Saren

All of your skills?

NB Unreflectable Skills:
Death Stroke
Ambush
Mark Target
Concealed Weapon
Path of Darkness
Mass Hysteria
Summon Shade
Soul Teather
Sap Essence

NB Reflectable Skills:
Funnel Health
Crippling Grasp
The new Agony (?)

So... maybe three?

Chelo

jaburns wrote: »

All of your skills?

NB Unreflectable Skills:
Death Stroke
Ambush
Mark Target
Concealed Weapon
Path of Darkness
Mass Hysteria
Summon Shade
Soul Teather
Sap Essence

NB Reflectable Skills:
Funnel Health
Crippling Grasp
The new Agony (?)

So... maybe three?

Funnel Health, Crippling Grasp, Impale and Merciless Resolve, basically all our single target damge skills if we play at range (Concealed Weapon is not viable), also Destructive Reach (most of us use it).

Honestly when I see a DK spamming wings, I spam Force Pulse until he realize he is taking the damage and he is going to die anyway...

But it would be great if Funnel Health become a beam like Force Pulse and not a projectile anymore!

mvffins

Force Pulse, Sap Essence, Meteor are the 3 I spam when someone has reflect up. The first question ZOS should ask before they take something out of PvP is whether it can easily be spammed, reflect skills do not follow under this category as most cost a lot of resources.

ShadowMonarch

Yea as a Magnb with my usual setup the only way I can even damage sombody spamming reflect like wings is if I soul tether into assassins will and hope that it 1 shots them.

With a high priority single target damage build as a magblade in pvp reflect can make sombody pretty much invincible.

I still don't quite understand how our execute is counted as a projectile and reflect-able sense its just a blade we stab them with but oh well I guess anything with range is reflect-able.

When a DK puts wings up I can't cc them with cripple, knock them up with my desto staff, I can't even hit them with swallow soul or a execute.

Only real way to play around it is to put on a lot higher costing magika abilitys and try to aoe them down but in the end this has become VERY hard to do sense siphon strikes was nerfed by 400% to our magika and stamina regeneration making it so bad that some magblades I play with don't even run it anymore

TBH I think that is the real problem with it. Back before siphon was nerfed I could usually try to survive and poke at them with my resto bar until they let their guard down then go in but with siphon being nerfed from 1k magika+1k stamina down to 100 magika OR stamina its very hard to do, Not to mention I cannot build near my old damage cause now I have to run a sustain set in place of a old damage set.

EVERY class has a sustain ability and the nightblades siphon was nerfed by 400% to our magika and stamina regen which lets be honest was very very overkill.

When nerfing somthing you should only mark it down by 5-10% at a time until you reach a balanced state, not just jump in on a 400% nerf.

WacArnold

jaburns wrote: »

All of your skills?

NB Unreflectable Skills:
Death Stroke
Ambush
Mark Target
Concealed Weapon
Path of Darkness
Mass Hysteria
Summon Shade
Soul Teather
Sap Essence

NB Reflectable Skills:
Funnel Health
Crippling Grasp
The new Agony (?)

So... maybe three?

Your right i should mark the target then wait untill my ulti fills up again in the mean time i will spam essence and put path down . that will definitly get kills, how fullish of me not to think of that.

Most of the skills u named are utlitily and not viable damage. Obviously i mean damage skills but ofc i have to say it because some smart ass will throw that back at me.

I have been on there side of this and using reflect makes fights against ranged charcters a joke.

ShadowMonarch

mvffins wrote: »

Force Pulse, Sap Essence, Meteor are the 3 I spam when someone has reflect up. The first question ZOS should ask before they take something out of PvP is whether it can easily be spammed, reflect skills do not follow under this category as most cost a lot of resources.

Thats not true exactly. In a 1v1 duel vs a magdk friend of mine he can keep wings up with a 100% uptime nearly and still be fine.

WacArnold

ShadowMonarch wrote: »

mvffins wrote: »

Force Pulse, Sap Essence, Meteor are the 3 I spam when someone has reflect up. The first question ZOS should ask before they take something out of PvP is whether it can easily be spammed, reflect skills do not follow under this category as most cost a lot of resources.

Thats not true exactly. In a 1v1 duel vs a magdk friend of mine he can keep wings up with a 100% uptime nearly and still be fine.

Exactly

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

jaburns wrote: »

All of your skills?

NB Unreflectable Skills:
Death Stroke
Ambush
Mark Target
Concealed Weapon
Path of Darkness
Mass Hysteria
Summon Shade
Soul Teather
Sap Essence

NB Reflectable Skills:
Funnel Health
Crippling Grasp
The new Agony (?)

So... maybe three?

Nightblade powers that are melee are unless on a stamina build suck. This is why with a gap closer and single target Melee mage Attack nearly all MageBlades fight at range.

Death Stroke: Melee range Ultimate
Ambush: Stamina (to be fair believe you mean Lotus Fan)
Mark Target: debuff no damage done
Concealed Weapons: completely useless the damage is very poor and the main reason MageBlades are ranged
Path of Dark: ground AoE melee range
Mass Hysteria: CC no damage
Summon Shade: debuff with very light damage
Soul Tether: Melee range Ultimate
Sap Essence:Melee range damage with a strong buff.

What OP is saying is that the powers that matter are reflexible.

Edit grammar/missing words

WacArnold

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

jaburns wrote: »

All of your skills?

NB Unreflectable Skills:
Death Stroke
Ambush
Mark Target
Concealed Weapon
Path of Darkness
Mass Hysteria
Summon Shade
Soul Teather
Sap Essence

NB Reflectable Skills:
Funnel Health
Crippling Grasp
The new Agony (?)

So... maybe three?

Nightblade powers that a melee unless on a stamina build suck. This is why with a gap closer and single target Melee mage Attack nearly all MageBlades fight at range.

Death Stroke: Melee range Ultimate
Ambush: Stamina (to be fair believe you mean Lotus Fan)
Mark Target: debuff no damage done
Concealed Weapons: completely useless the damage is very poor and the main reason MageBlades are ranged
Path of Dark: ground AoE melee range
Mass Hysteria: CC no damage
Summon Shade: debuff with very light damage
Soul Tether: Melee range Ultimate
Sap Essence:Melee range damage with a strong buff.

What OP is saying is that the powers that matter are reflexible.

Yes thank you!

VaranisArano

So because your class has a bunch of good powers that can be reflected, ZOS should remove another class' defensive powers.

By that measure, how about we remove both?

ShadowMonarch

VaranisArano wrote: »

So because your class has a bunch of good powers that can be reflected, ZOS should remove another class' defensive powers.

By that measure, how about we remove both?

So my class has a ability that makes me invulrable to almost 100% of the damage of another class.

No problemo their!

Reverb

ShadowMonarch wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

So because your class has a bunch of good powers that can be reflected, ZOS should remove another class' defensive powers.

By that measure, how about we remove both?

So my class has a ability that makes me invulrable to almost 100% of the damage of another class.

No problemo their!

Your math is bad, or you're rounding 40 up to "almost 100".

There are plenty of non-reflectable skills on every class. Just because the ones that someone wants to use has a counter, does not mean that the counter should be removed.

ShadowMonarch

Reverb wrote: »

ShadowMonarch wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

So because your class has a bunch of good powers that can be reflected, ZOS should remove another class' defensive powers.

By that measure, how about we remove both?

So my class has a ability that makes me invulrable to almost 100% of the damage of another class.

No problemo their!

Your math is bad, or you're rounding 40 up to "almost 100".

There are plenty of non-reflectable skills on every class. Just because the ones that someone wants to use has a counter, does not mean that the counter should be removed.

Your math is bad, the 60% that arnt reflectable SUCK in pvp lol.

All of our single target ranged abilitys are reflectable.

VaranisArano

ShadowMonarch wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

So because your class has a bunch of good powers that can be reflected, ZOS should remove another class' defensive powers.

By that measure, how about we remove both?

So my class has a ability that makes me invulrable to almost 100% of the damage of another class.

No problemo their!

So its time for the Mist Form complaints, right?

Look, every class, every build has something that is going to completely counter someone's build, somewhere. And then you'll see that same class and build get rofl-stomped by a different class and build.

ESO PVP isn't a game where every class/build can kill every other class/build in every situation. Sometimes, its more like rock/paper/scissors where there's a counter to every situation and a counter to the counter. Sometimes people have to adjust their builds to counter the counter or perhaps just accept that their build is really good in most situations but will occasionally hit a build that counters their's perfectly.

Either adapt to deal with that class/build, accept that a certain class/build counters yours, or whine to the forums. If you want rules about what people are and are not allowed to use in PVP beyond what ZOS provides, start your own dueling tourney.

O_LYKOS

Disagree

Draxys

Palm ———> Face

Toast_STS

Only if cloak doesn't give 100% damage mitigation on all projectiles too.

ShadowMonarch

Toast_STS wrote: »

Only if cloak doesn't give 100% damage mitigation on all projectiles too.

Only if cloak wasn't broken sense launch and projectiles didnt pull you out of stealth after you entered it and if only cloak wasnt 100% counter-able by a potion or mark target or mages light.

Tonturri

How about, instead of removing reflect skills, we aim towards not having a single ability totally negate certain playstyles?

VaranisArano

Tonturri wrote: »

How about, instead of removing reflect skills, we aim towards not having a single ability totally negate certain playstyles?

How about you adjust your playstyle, however slightly, in order to not be countered by one single ability? Seems like a rather fragile playstyle to me.

I mean, this is sort of like a shield-stacking sorc complaining about shield-breaker. If you build a one-trick pony, someone's going to learn your trick and counter it.

Edziu

Toast_STS wrote: »

Only if cloak doesn't give 100% damage mitigation on all projectiles too.

is it post to nerf mNB almost only class defense? (which is even unviable in 100%)

ShadowMonarch

Tonturri wrote: »

How about, instead of removing reflect skills, we aim towards not having a single ability totally negate certain playstyles?

VaranisArano wrote: »

Tonturri wrote: »

How about, instead of removing reflect skills, we aim towards not having a single ability totally negate certain playstyles?

How about you adjust your playstyle, however slightly, in order to not be countered by one single ability? Seems like a rather fragile playstyle to me.

I mean, this is sort of like a shield-stacking sorc complaining about shield-breaker. If you build a one-trick pony, someone's going to learn your trick and counter it.

And what exactly other alternatives do magsorcs have?

Magblade doesnt have any real viable melee options.

VaranisArano

ShadowMonarch wrote: »

Tonturri wrote: »

How about, instead of removing reflect skills, we aim towards not having a single ability totally negate certain playstyles?

VaranisArano wrote: »

Tonturri wrote: »

How about, instead of removing reflect skills, we aim towards not having a single ability totally negate certain playstyles?

How about you adjust your playstyle, however slightly, in order to not be countered by one single ability? Seems like a rather fragile playstyle to me.

I mean, this is sort of like a shield-stacking sorc complaining about shield-breaker. If you build a one-trick pony, someone's going to learn your trick and counter it.

And what exactly other alternatives do magsorcs have?

Magblade doesnt have any real viable melee options.

If your only response is "I'm a one-trick pony, and darn it, ZOS should cater to my one trick!" I'm not sure how to help you.

Edited to add something somewhat helpful: I rarely run wings on my MagDK because I'm running as a healer. When I did, I found that effective players, including magblades, pressured me out of using wings. They'd push me into running through my resources for wings or self-healing or damage, and would keep up the pressure while waiting for me to make a mistake - letting wings lapse or letting my self get into execute range. Now, I'm far from the best dueler, so an experienced dueler would probable handle that pressure much better. As you said, you've got that friend who can keep wings up all the time (sounds like a great friend to test counters with). So I still don't think that wings are a problem in general, it sounds more like a matter of coming up against a good player who knows how to sustain them effectively.

ShadowMonarch

VaranisArano wrote: »

ShadowMonarch wrote: »

Tonturri wrote: »

How about, instead of removing reflect skills, we aim towards not having a single ability totally negate certain playstyles?

VaranisArano wrote: »

Tonturri wrote: »

How about, instead of removing reflect skills, we aim towards not having a single ability totally negate certain playstyles?

How about you adjust your playstyle, however slightly, in order to not be countered by one single ability? Seems like a rather fragile playstyle to me.

I mean, this is sort of like a shield-stacking sorc complaining about shield-breaker. If you build a one-trick pony, someone's going to learn your trick and counter it.

And what exactly other alternatives do magsorcs have?

Magblade doesnt have any real viable melee options.

If your only response is "I'm a one-trick pony, and darn it, ZOS should cater to my one trick!" I'm not sure how to help you.

Edited to add something somewhat helpful: I rarely run wings on my MagDK because I'm running as a healer. When I did, I found that effective players, including magblades, pressured me out of using wings. They'd push me into running through my resources for wings or self-healing or damage, and would keep up the pressure while waiting for me to make a mistake - letting wings lapse or letting my self get into execute range. Now, I'm far from the best dueler, so an experienced dueler would probable handle that pressure much better. As you said, you've got that friend who can keep wings up all the time (sounds like a great friend to test counters with). So I still don't think that wings are a problem in general, it sounds more like a matter of coming up against a good player who knows how to sustain them effectively.

If you read the entire thread I already mentioned my way of dealing with them is to Soul Tether and assassins will when they'r reflect goes down then hoping for a 1shot crit, about the best ranged magblade can do to reflect user.

Chelo

I repeat, just make Funnel Health a beam like Force Pulse and call it a day...

FloppyTouch

Sure take wings and reflects away I’m 100% okay with this IF they reduce all ur mNB damage abilities by 50%

Taleof2Cities

DK wings and defensive posture are pretty expensive (as pointed out above) ... much less finding a slot on your bar to put it.

The answer is ‘no’.

ShadowMonarch

FloppyTouch wrote: »

Sure take wings and reflects away I’m 100% okay with this IF they reduce all ur mNB damage abilities by 50%

Why would you nerf a entire class's damage by 50% for removing a ability from the game that allows players to become 100% invulnerable to all ranged damage?

Please try to be more productive on your next posting here at The Elder Scrolls Online Forums.

Qbiken

Look at it the other way, reflect is the best counter against a magblade. In this case it´s a paper/rock/scissor game. As a magblade you´ve very good single target damage, both sustained damage and burst-damage. There´re 3 situations you´ll have trouble as a magblade (If we talk only about the reflecting part):

* MagDK´s
* Wardens (Shimmering shield)
* SnB users using posture
* Maybe a magplar using eclipse

In all other encounters you´ll have in cyrodil, you´ll have an advantage of people not being able to reflect your skills. Sure, everyone can equip SnB and slot posture, but that skill is kinda costly (even when used with Asylum Shield), and I don´t see it being used to often.

As I said, it´s a "rock/paper/scissor"-game, you can´t be good against everything, but you´ll be good against something.