Can we please take reflect skills out of pvp?

Ragnarock41

RNG based reflect? How much more ridicilous can you guys get?
The bias against Dk is ridicilous.

What am I gonna do with a reflect that only works when it wants?
Reliability is key when it comes to skills.

WacArnold

Cherryblossom wrote: »

WacArnold wrote: »

ShadowMonarch wrote: »

mvffins wrote: »

Force Pulse, Sap Essence, Meteor are the 3 I spam when someone has reflect up. The first question ZOS should ask before they take something out of PvP i

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

RNG based reflect? How much more ridicilous can you guys get?
The bias against Dk is ridicilous.

What am I gonna do with a reflect that only works when it wants?
Reliability is key when it comes to skills.

Yeah thats why it pisses me off none of my skills work.

WacArnold

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

RNG based reflect? How much more ridicilous can you guys get?
The bias against Dk is ridicilous.

What am I gonna do with a reflect that only works when it wants?
Reliability is key when it comes to skills.

Yeah thats why it pisses me off none of my skills work.

Also anybody with snb can use a reflect skill as well not just dks

WacArnold

And please everybody else who suggests another skill make a melee magblade and please show me how good it works vs skilled players and not chumps. Because you see so many around they must kick ass right?

Joy_Division

WacArnold wrote: »

As a mnb all my skills are reflectable. I know thats not a popular opinion but being in a bubble, fighting against snb, and wings feels pretty one sided.

Hi ZoS,

I don't care that my opponents are slow and I'm fast.

I don't care that my opponents have melee centric skis and I have great ranged skills.

I don't care that my opponents are meant to stand their ground whereas I have excellent maneuverability/escape.

I don't care the my opponents lack the high instant burst damage from their regular abilities whereras I have it.

I don't want my opponents given anything to compensate them for all these disadvantages if it inconveniences my build.

Tan9oSuccka

WacArnold wrote: »

And please everybody else who suggests another skill make a melee magblade and please show me how good it works vs skilled players and not chumps. Because you see so many around they must kick ass right?

The only ones I see are cheesing their way into enemy keeps.

I love hunting you guys. I can tell by the guards where you guys are hiding. Detect pot and your death incoming!

Drummerx04

ShadowMonarch wrote: »

Toast_STS wrote: »

Only if cloak doesn't give 100% damage mitigation on all projectiles too.

Only if cloak wasn't broken sense launch and projectiles didnt pull you out of stealth after you entered it and if only cloak wasnt 100% counter-able by a potion or mark target or mages light.

Projectiles do not pull you out of stealth, or at least none of mine do on sorc (force misses crushing, reach, frags, execute bolt, light/heavy attacks, and dots)

And as for detect pots, often NB still spam cloak which force misses projectiles even though I can see you right there, cloak also force misses dots... which for magDK is pretty much most of their damage besides whip... I guess no one sees the irony there?

But believe me, I get it, as a sorc from back when crushing and meteor was reflectable and my own frags could CC me, reflect can be annoying, but your goal at that point is to out sustain and perhaps use fear to CC as wings go down.

Gothrock

No need to nerf or remove anything.
Just adding "unreflectable" to strife and its morphs (or even to only swallow soul as pvp-oriented morph) will solve this problem.

TequilaFire

While we are at it could we fix Fear so it is reliably breakable? lol

kringled_1

Is there a good way to know which ranged skills are reflectable (as a general question, the nb skills are well laid out here but I don't currently have any nb)? New to PVP in ESO, pretty sure I killed myself via reflect a couple of times last night. Also, is there a good way to distinguish the wings from reflective scales and the wings from dragon leap if you're just catching it I peripheral vision? Is there a good tell for someone who's used defensive posture?

dodgehopper_ESO

The premise is wrong. I have offered an idea now for something like 3 years that Reflects should be more like they were in previous Elder Scrolls Games. What I am suggesting is that ZoS give them a long 30 second duration but diminish their short term value akin to how Blur works. Blur offers a chance to dodge. Reflect could offer a chance to reflect. This would make the skill more defensive in nature but still create a sense of risk in attackers who will know they are going to eat a certain percentage of their own attacks. Problem solved.

BohnT

WacArnold wrote: »

And please everybody else who suggests another skill make a melee magblade and please show me how good it works vs skilled players and not chumps. Because you see so many around they must kick ass right?

Go to the PvP section of the forums look for the tournament on Pc NA and read which spec won 3 weeks in a row small hint it was a meele mag nb.
Then check Kena's YT Channel to see how Bad meele magnb is or if you play on Pc EU meet me in Bergama for a small duel i'll show you how bad they are

Reverb

Gothrock wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

Of all the problems out there reflectables really isn't one. You just need to change your tactics and adjust. Like fighting sorc wards or a stamina toon or a auto healing Templar.

It's good that things make you think.

Hmm, is there any class, which forces DKs to "change tactics and adjust", by completely changing their build against certain one?

Yes. As a mag DK, I have to use completely different tactics against a mag Templar or a Warden of almost any build, than I do on other classes.

But I notice you specifically mention dueling, you don't want to have to change your loadout for dueling a DK. That's silly, all of us tweak the skills we use for duels against specific classes and builds. If you're saying that you have one loadout that is perfectly effective against everything except a DK with flappy flaps, that seems imbalanced in your favor.

Milvan

WacArnold wrote: »

As a mnb all my skills are reflectable. I know thats not a popular opinion but being in a bubble, fighting against snb, and wings feels pretty one sided.

BohnT

kringled_1 wrote: »

Is there a good way to know which ranged skills are reflectable (as a general question, the nb skills are well laid out here but I don't currently have any nb)? New to PVP in ESO, pretty sure I killed myself via reflect a couple of times last night. Also, is there a good way to distinguish the wings from reflective scales and the wings from dragon leap if you're just catching it I peripheral vision? Is there a good tell for someone who's used defensive posture?

projectiles like light attacks from Staves, heavy fire/ice attacks, all single target bow skills and some other single target ranged attacks using a projectile (that includes WW howl)
What you can't reflect: Beams (force pulse, jesus beam, Soulassault, heavy resto/lightning)
Birds, meteor, secondary effects of skills like dots or roots go through reflects.

There is also a difference between reflects and absorbs.
Some skills which are absorbable can't be reflected.

Gothrock

Reverb wrote: »

Gothrock wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

Of all the problems out there reflectables really isn't one. You just need to change your tactics and adjust. Like fighting sorc wards or a stamina toon or a auto healing Templar.

It's good that things make you think.

Hmm, is there any class, which forces DKs to "change tactics and adjust", by completely changing their build against certain one?

But I notice you specifically mention dueling, you don't want to have to change your loadout for dueling a DK. That's silly, all of us tweak the skills we use for duels against specific classes and builds. If you're saying that you have one loadout that is perfectly effective against everything except a DK with flappy flaps, that seems imbalanced in your favor.

Well, swapping skills like fear/d.reach, harness magicka, shade, mark, etc and swapping main offensive skills like strife and crippling grasp, which synergies with main damage set - its a bit different things.
I know about DK's problems with templars, but i'm not sure, that they swap lava whip and gear set before fighting templar.

Goshua

great idea, for any ranged class actually, can we all get fear too please and cloak, that would be the icing on our cakes.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

All of the talk to nerf this or that really loses sight of the obvious problem that mages are forced into the ranger fighting style as melee magic is AoE as very few magic melee attacks.

Counter play is great and very much needed for balance and fun but a line needs to be made. Top of my head Whip, Concealed Weapons and Jab are the only magic melee Attacks I can think of right now. The problem of reflection powers would be be as bad if mages had the power to get up close and personal.

A fireball with be reflexed from max range or face to face magic melee is what’s needed. Fixes not nerfs.

Dojohoda

As a magblade, I prefer to have a restoration or a lightning staff back bar .. because .. a light or heavy attack from either of these staves is a "channel" and cannot be reflected.

One has to be aware in PvP. When you see flappy wings, or in a bubble.. etc.. don't use certain skills.

Learn what you can do in the situations described in the original post.

CavalryPK

Because of the nature of my play style Destro/Resto Magicka Awsome NB. Every time I see a Mag DK with wings. I Put down my shade... then I nicely let them come to me. then I nicely port to my shade then I nicely cloak away and never come back.

There you go. Even with Crushing shock... wings are a pain cuz to deal with.. you need to burst and all of your burst abilities are reflect able.

Dojohoda

jaburns wrote: »

All of your skills?

NB Unreflectable Skills:
Death Stroke
Ambush
Mark Target
Concealed Weapon
Path of Darkness
Mass Hysteria
Summon Shade
Soul Teather
Sap Essence

NB Reflectable Skills:
Funnel Health
Crippling Grasp
The new Agony (?)

So... maybe three?

Grim Focus and morphs "spectral bow" (an important burst) is Reflectable.

ak_pvp

ShadowMonarch wrote: »

Toast_STS wrote: »

Only if cloak doesn't give 100% damage mitigation on all projectiles too.

Only if cloak wasn't broken sense launch and projectiles didnt pull you out of stealth after you entered it and if only cloak wasnt 100% counter-able by a potion or mark target or mages light.

It has a time AND projectile limit, costs a lot, half the projectiles aren't reflected, has a bug with the reflect counter not refreshing, sometimes not reflecting at all and receives status effects, dots etc through reflect.

Light attack through it, let them drop 4k mag every 6s, fear them as its going to fall off, use dots etc etc.

Chelo wrote: »

I repeat, just make Funnel Health a beam like Force Pulse and call it a day...

Can we make wings reflect shite ideas? Because it sure as *** can't reflect much else.

VaranisArano

Gothrock wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Gothrock wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

Of all the problems out there reflectables really isn't one. You just need to change your tactics and adjust. Like fighting sorc wards or a stamina toon or a auto healing Templar.

It's good that things make you think.

Hmm, is there any class, which forces DKs to "change tactics and adjust", by completely changing their build against certain one?

. What world do you live in that you think DKs are the king of rock/paper/scissors?

In a world, where i have to:
1. use few Bloody Maras
2. use normal food
3. switch War Maiden to Julianos
4. replace half of the skills on my panels, which make me weaker by default
just to duel mDK competitevely?

See, you keep dancing around what circumstances you are dealing with these DK wings and other reflect skills.
Removing reflect in PVP means ALL PVP. Cyrodiil solo, 1v1, 1vXs, small groups, large groups. All of it. Battlegrounds. Oh, and competitive Duels.

Wings might be a super effective counter to your dueling build. Sorry. Wings and other reflect skills are balanced for the vast majority of the rest of the game's PVP content. Especially in Cyrodiil where there are a lot more situations that 1v1 duels.

So yes, adapt your dueling build for 1v1s vs players with reflect skills and the experience/build to keep them up because ZOS doesn't have to cater to your one-trick pony dueling build. Then, get some perspective about how reflect skills perform in the vast majority of other PVP situations. Hint: reflect is a nice form of counterplay for slower, tankier builds, hard to keep up in pressure situations, and fairly easy to overcome in group play situations that are the majority of PVP in this game.

If ZOS were going to balance for duels seperate from all other PVP, you'd have a point. But ZOS won't, and that means there's a wider picture here than just your build's performance in duels.

Saint_Bud

Pretty shure they nerf wings in the next patch again. Moast dk players dont use this skill for a reason.

Samadhi

ShadowMonarch wrote: »

Toast_STS wrote: »

Only if cloak doesn't give 100% damage mitigation on all projectiles too.

Only if cloak wasn't broken sense launch and projectiles didnt pull you out of stealth after you entered it and if only cloak wasnt 100% counter-able by a potion or mark target or mages light.

Really just think there needs to be some new potion effects added
Ignore shields for 12 seconds
Ignore reflect for 12 seconds
Disable gap closers and teleportation skills within x meters for 12 seconds

It is a good thing that potions exist as a counter for at least one class
particularly considering that Detection Potions apparently are unable to see through Invisibility potions used by Medium armor users, meaning Cloak is their primary thing to counter
Potions are super-flexible and can be added in to any build on the fly (due to ability to swap potions for different effects in combat)
They should be available as counters for more effects in game

Malmai

DK is melee NB is ranged and now you want to nerf DK wings? Do you even know how much this wings and DK was nerfed in the past?

Ps: if you cant play MagNB dont force yourself...

Tears.

LeagueTroll

Qbiken wrote: »

Look at it the other way, reflect is the best counter against a magblade. In this case it´s a paper/rock/scissor game. As a magblade you´ve very good single target damage, both sustained damage and burst-damage. There´re 3 situations you´ll have trouble as a magblade (If we talk only about the reflecting part):

* MagDK´s
* Wardens (Shimmering shield)
* SnB users using posture
* Maybe a magplar using eclipse

In all other encounters you´ll have in cyrodil, you´ll have an advantage of people not being able to reflect your skills. Sure, everyone can equip SnB and slot posture, but that skill is kinda costly (even when used with Asylum Shield), and I don´t see it being used to often.

As I said, it´s a "rock/paper/scissor"-game, you can´t be good against everything, but you´ll be good against something.

I agree, no counter = unbalanced

chaserstorm16909

ShadowMonarch wrote: »

Toast_STS wrote: »

Only if cloak doesn't give 100% damage mitigation on all projectiles too.

Only if cloak wasn't broken sense launch and projectiles didnt pull you out of stealth after you entered it and if only cloak wasnt 100% counter-able by a potion or mark target or mages light.

And don't forget all aoe abilities, flare, soul assault and many dots.

VaranisArano

LeagueTroll wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Look at it the other way, reflect is the best counter against a magblade. In this case it´s a paper/rock/scissor game. As a magblade you´ve very good single target damage, both sustained damage and burst-damage. There´re 3 situations you´ll have trouble as a magblade (If we talk only about the reflecting part):

* MagDK´s
* Wardens (Shimmering shield)
* SnB users using posture
* Maybe a magplar using eclipse

In all other encounters you´ll have in cyrodil, you´ll have an advantage of people not being able to reflect your skills. Sure, everyone can equip SnB and slot posture, but that skill is kinda costly (even when used with Asylum Shield), and I don´t see it being used to often.

As I said, it´s a "rock/paper/scissor"-game, you can´t be good against everything, but you´ll be good against something.

I agree, no counter = unbalanced

And there are plenty of counters to reflect skills. Its just that some people don't want to adapt to run them, so they complain that their chosen build has no counters. Those counters are available, they just don't want to use them and want ZOS to make them win anyway.

Ratzkifal

Member when Sorcs had nothing unreflectable that wasn't an AoE apart from Curse? Member when DKs could two-shot you with your own overload attacks?

What I'd like to know is what reflective scales would be used for in a pvp world without reflects. No compensation?