It's time to talk about DK Standard

Quantum_V

Hello everyone,

For the past week or two I've been playing around with Standard and it's morphs. Gave a shot at it in solo, small group and medium sized groups and I bascially just want to give my opinion about it and suggest some changes to what once was an Ult that brough sheer fear into your enemies. Before we start, I think it's essential to make a point clear: I don't PvE, I don't know how PvE works, so please keep this in mind while reading this thread. I might propose solutions that could totally unbalance this ult in PvE situations, so I'd love to get different insights and replies about it.

In the first place I just think the issue with this ult can be summarized in a few word: it's just outdated. The game has change a lot since 1.5 and it seems that Standard ult didn't evolve with it. It's stuck to the old playstyle and balances, redering it useless in todays' Cyrodiilic enviroment. So to start with, the biggest issue with Standard right now is the COST/Effectiveness ratio. Back in the day where you had dynamic ult regen and major defile was not easily accessible Standard had a proportional cost to it's effecs in PvP.

I'll start of a simple premise, standard is only 'useful' because it applies major defile, the damage it provides is basically neglectible compared to other DoTs in the game. We'll keep that in mind when proposing solutions. Fact is, major defile is just a very easy debuff to get, Wardens can literally spam that healing debuff anywhere without having to slot a 250 cost ultimate. It makes no sense to me being able to have a skill that has the same basic effect as such an expensive ultimate.

If we grab an ultimate like Resto ult, that gives you major protection, a whole ton of healing, improves crit damage etc... for 150 ult. That, imo, is just really unproportional to have in the exsistance of a ult like banner. Have a negate? Standard is useless compared to this ult. Healing thicket, god damn.

So I think most of us understands from where I'm coming from, I don't want to make this post too long, so lets get to the changes that could make this ultimate more viable.

• Decrease it's cost
• Increase damage done per second (I understand this could unbalance this ult for pve)
• Apply minor/major magicka steal to enemies inside the ult radius
• Apply minor/major protection to you (or allies) inside the ult radius
• Apply minor/major breech/fracture to enemies inside the ult radius
• Snare opponents inside the ult radius by x% (make that x a pretty big number, I'd suggest)
• Stun all opponents inside the banner drop radius
  

So what do you think? Please let me know! It'd be a pleasure if we could get ZoS to read this thread and hopefully make some changes to this badass ult!

Thanks!

Quantum

Draxys

“It’s just outdated” basically sums up DKs. They’re the only class that didn’t get significant updates to make it appropriate for the current game.

That being said, I think one way to make banner fearsome again could be to give it a passive effect that increases damage and effects etc against players inside its radius. Gives it extra usefulness in pvp, doesn’t change pve.

Nihility42

As a primarily PVE DK that's just moving into PVP, here's my take on your idea. All of these are from the perspective of Standard of Might because I've never heard of anyone using the other morph.

• Decrease it's cost
  This would probably make it too strong in PVE. StamDK is already the strongest DPS class in PVE. Giving them such a powerful (and it is really powerful in PVE) ult even more often would just enlarge their supremacy.
• Increase damage done per second (I understand this could unbalance this ult for pve)
  Honestly this is probably better than lowering the cost for PVE, but still likely not ideal. Currently it's not great in PVE for the damage it does, but for the damage buff it offers you. 20% extra damage on an optimized rotation is a lot.
• Apply minor/major magicka steal to enemies inside the ult radius
• Apply minor/major protection to you (or allies) inside the ult radius
• Apply minor/major breech/fracture to enemies inside the ult radius
  I think the three of these could potentially be viable. Not sure about the magicka steal. It does already grants the caster 20% reduced damage. Fracture probably wouldn't have a huge effect on PVE because any group will have that applied to enemies anyway.
• Snare opponents inside the ult radius by x% (make that x a pretty big number, I'd suggest)
• Stun all opponents inside the banner drop radius
  I feel like these two might be the best option of the bunch. Stuns and snares aren't that important in PVE, especially with most bosses being immune, but could make it a lot nicer against players

I also like what Draxys said about giving it an effect specifically for players. That'd be the most sure way not to affect PVE balance.

davey1107

@Nihility42

Are you sure you got EVERYTHING on your wish list for that one ability? In addition, maybe it could also:

- refresh the potion timer regardless what the countdown is
- Recharge itself
- Call out for dominos pizza, realize dominos sucks and call to cancel
- Kill nearest Templar instantly. Avada kadavra!
- discover unified theory of physics
- Open overcharge bar that gives DKs every ability in the game
- send rude email to Eric Wroebel on every use

Lol.

Brutusmax1mus

Its a unique area denial skill that helps my breach holder do it's job. I love it, needs no change imo.

Great synergy for area denial, great buff to the dk who's meant too stand tall and fight.

Its DIFFERENT and situational, like negate. Also it isn't great in small scale and open field. But it's a game changer on a block tank, lock down, breach holding dk.

I disagree, it has worth to one of my characters more than any other, and the game needs more of that and less BIS DBOS type ultimates.

Sylphie

I would like standard to either be changed so that it:

1. Has a bigger radius and snares enemies by 70%. If they are in the radius, it reapplies said snare every 1 second. This is done so that the snare can't be instantly purged by groups with magplar healers, which are the reasons why I would take standard in the first place.

or

2. Works the same way as eye of the storm does in that it follows you around.

I would prefer the 1st option since it requires a more skillful approach than just pressing R and running forward like the current destro ulti+proxy meta seen in most zergs.

I completely agree that right now, standard is too costly to use, so much so that currently I would rather just slot duroks bane and run leap as my main ultimate. The only good thing that came out of the previous standard change was that every time you reapply standard, you can reactivate the synergy.

Ragnarock41

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Its a unique area denial skill that helps my breach holder do it's job. I love it, needs no change imo.

Great synergy for area denial, great buff to the dk who's meant too stand tall and fight.

Its DIFFERENT and situational, like negate. Also it isn't great in small scale and open field. But it's a game changer on a block tank, lock down, breach holding dk.

I disagree, it has worth to one of my characters more than any other, and the game needs more of that and less BIS DBOS type ultimates.

I didn't knew this was a role play thread.
Area denial... rofl.

''guys fall back that DK has a standart up!''

said no one ever, and no one ever will.

how can you compare a game changer ult like negate to a meme tier dk standart? It baffles me to even think about it.

Urza1234

Draxys wrote: »

“It’s just outdated” basically sums up DKs. They’re the only class that didn’t get significant updates to make it appropriate for the current game.

That being said, I think one way to make banner fearsome again could be to give it a passive effect that increases damage and effects etc against players inside its radius. Gives it extra usefulness in pvp, doesn’t change pve.

Thats hardly fair, they did get nerfs.

Leandor

Make standard's area of effect an unpurgable effect that limits player movement to 30% of normal, negating any and all speed buffs while affected. Then it has its uses for breach defense but doesn't impact PvE at all.

Quantum_V

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Its a unique area denial skill that helps my breach holder do it's job. I love it, needs no change imo.

Great synergy for area denial, great buff to the dk who's meant too stand tall and fight.

Its DIFFERENT and situational, like negate. Also it isn't great in small scale and open field. But it's a game changer on a block tank, lock down, breach holding dk.

I disagree, it has worth to one of my characters more than any other, and the game needs more of that and less BIS DBOS type ultimates.

Why not just have a warden with spores? He doesn't have to wait for ult cooldown...

I'm not saying that banner is bad, major defile is a very strong debuff. I'm saying it's outdated, classes have skills with the same effect that of which a 250 ult. That, imo, makes no sense.

Quantum_V

Leandor wrote: »

Make standard's area of effect an unpurgable effect that limits player movement to 30% of normal, negating any and all speed buffs while affected. Then it has its uses for breach defense but doesn't impact PvE at all.

Yeah! I could see this working!

Vaoh

The new Shifting Standard is very good....

Thogard

Vaoh wrote: »

The new Shifting Standard is very good....

Doesn’t it take a GCD to reset the standard?

Joy_Division

OP hit the nail on the head.

When ZoS changed the cost from 200 to 250 (still can't believe they did this), they did so announcing that it was something of a "gold standard "(pun intended) for how effective and ultimate should be for its cost.

The only way such a conclusion can be drawn is if they PvE only or are one of the PuGs who stood inside Sypher's banners way back when it was possible to open world on a magDK and not spend half the time playing horse simulator.

As far as how to make it effective in PvP, I don't think it can be done without major restructruing. As folks have already mentioned its former big appeal was AoE defile, but that now can be replicated by a spammable skill. The fact of the matter is otherwise it has a small area of effect that is easy to move out of and its DoT does not inspire dread. If I find myself in a banner, I don't think to myself "Oh, no I better leave" (the way I do a destro ult), rather, "That's a nice whooshing sound. Is there anything here that I need/want to do? No? OK, maybe it's time to make that poor DK sad and calmly walk out of her banner."

Besides, it will proc some PuG's earthgore and will go *poof* to be replaced by a font of enemy healing.

Thogard

They should just make it like the warden frost ult but with the defile instead of the stun.

OutLaw_Nynx

I haven’t used the other morph in pvp but if memory serves me correctly we don’t gain ult when the standard is down correct?

Barbaran

actually a great ult when playing a mag dk.
fighting 2v1 agaiant someone with a pocket healer or fighting a templar since the class lacks an execute.
i think the cost needs to drop a bit, or finally give DKs a class execute, so even stam DKs dont HAVE to use 2 hand.
but at this point asking for a DK execute is a pipe dream

Ragnarock41

Thogard wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

The new Shifting Standard is very good....

Doesn’t it take a GCD to reset the standard?

and as far as I remember ,after the last changes to it, you can't get ultimate while shifting standart is up.
IF thats still the case its literally useless.

ak_pvp

Make SOM shift once. (With how mobility is so damn important, the outdated factor is too true, once they have rolldodged, then its useless, especially vs a ranged build) Keep shifting as infinite. Give them a small stun on drop. (maybe limit to first 2 drops?) Lower ult cost to 200.

It doesn't need to be a utility belt that KOSs everyone and gives you a handy whilst doing it.

Ragnarock41

Barbaran wrote: »

actually a great ult when playing a mag dk.
fighting 2v1 agaiant someone with a pocket healer or fighting a templar since the class lacks an execute.
i think the cost needs to drop a bit, or finally give DKs a class execute, so even stam DKs dont HAVE to use 2 hand.
but at this point asking for a DK execute is a pipe dream

yeah, so that I can finally be a dual wielding berserkser in PvP,


I will just use chains for gapcloser...
Chains....

oh wait.

Savos_Saren

For those of you asking: you can build ultimate while shifting standard is down. In the right circumstances- you can pop off a Ferocious Leap almost immediately after the Standard ends.

Before other classes scream “nerf”: This is a very rare circumstance.

Waffennacht

davey1107 wrote: »

@Nihility42

Are you sure you got EVERYTHING on your wish list for that one ability? In addition, maybe it could also:

- refresh the potion timer regardless what the countdown is
- Recharge itself
- Call out for dominos pizza, realize dominos sucks and call to cancel
- Kill nearest Templar instantly. Avada kadavra!
- discover unified theory of physics
- Open overcharge bar that gives DKs every ability in the game
- send rude email to Eric Wroebel on every use

Lol.

About fing killed me

Quantum_V

ak_pvp wrote: »

Make SOM shift once. (With how mobility is so damn important, the outdated factor is too true, once they have rolldodged, then its useless, especially vs a ranged build) Keep shifting as infinite. Give them a small stun on drop. (maybe limit to first 2 drops?) Lower ult cost to 200.

It doesn't need to be a utility belt that KOSs everyone and gives you a *** whilst doing it.

I like this!

Vaoh

OutLaw_Nynx wrote: »

I haven’t used the other morph in pvp but if memory serves me correctly we don’t gain ult when the standard is down correct?

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

The new Shifting Standard is very good....

Doesn’t it take a GCD to reset the standard?

and as far as I remember ,after the last changes to it, you can't get ultimate while shifting standart is up.
IF thats still the case its literally useless.

Thogard wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

The new Shifting Standard is very good....

Doesn’t it take a GCD to reset the standard?

You DO gain Ultimate while the Standard is down. Confirmed. Stop with the conspiracy theories everyone please lol.

Everyone is yelling for buffs. That’s cool and all, but the fact that the people who call it weak don’t know this massive detail goes to show they haven’t even bothered to use what they’re asking to buff a single time in *many* patches.
It was massively buffed in Clockwork City.... please go try it. It’s a very powerful Ultimate now.

It takes a GCD to move the Standard (obviously) but you can move it at will, and the extended duration is naturally added to the skill. It doesn’t take away from the skill for the player to need to move it. You can even cast your Dragon Leap before the duration of Shifting Standard ends.

Please try it first before yelling for buffs....

Savos_Saren

Shifting Standard costs 250 now, though.

trowlk

Here is a good idea for a standard pvp morph:

-Enchaining Stardard: While active, an ally can activate the Enchain synergy, dealing [X] Flame damage, pulling all the enemies to the standard and immobilizing them for 5 seconds.

Nihility42

davey1107 wrote: »

@Nihility42

Are you sure you got EVERYTHING on your wish list for that one ability? In addition, maybe it could also:

- refresh the potion timer regardless what the countdown is
- Recharge itself
- Call out for dominos pizza, realize dominos sucks and call to cancel
- Kill nearest Templar instantly. Avada kadavra!
- discover unified theory of physics
- Open overcharge bar that gives DKs every ability in the game
- send rude email to Eric Wroebel on every use

Lol.

I'm not actually sure what you're getting at. I just responded to OP's ideas. These aren't my suggestions or a wishlist.

ak_pvp

Vaoh wrote: »

OutLaw_Nynx wrote: »

I haven’t used the other morph in pvp but if memory serves me correctly we don’t gain ult when the standard is down correct?

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

The new Shifting Standard is very good....

Doesn’t it take a GCD to reset the standard?

and as far as I remember ,after the last changes to it, you can't get ultimate while shifting standart is up.
IF thats still the case its literally useless.

Thogard wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

The new Shifting Standard is very good....

Doesn’t it take a GCD to reset the standard?

You DO gain Ultimate while the Standard is down. Confirmed. Stop with the conspiracy theories everyone please lol.

Everyone is yelling for buffs. That’s cool and all, but the fact that the people who call it weak don’t know this massive detail goes to show they haven’t even bothered to use what they’re asking to buff a single time in *many* patches.
It was massively buffed in Clockwork City.... please go try it. It’s a very powerful Ultimate now.

It takes a GCD to move the Standard (obviously) but you can move it at will, and the extended duration is naturally added to the skill. It doesn’t take away from the skill for the player to need to move it. You can even cast your Dragon Leap before the duration of Shifting Standard ends.

Please try it first before yelling for buffs....

Aye, the ulti return was ninjafixed. And overall it'd consider it buffed, but the total time being reduced and the cost increase was a nerf if say you are in a smaller area like TreevP, tower or inner keep fights, where the extra drops isn't necessary. And the use of GCD can become awkward, even if you do increase total time.

paulsimonps

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Its a unique area denial skill that helps my breach holder do it's job. I love it, needs no change imo.

Great synergy for area denial, great buff to the dk who's meant too stand tall and fight.

Its DIFFERENT and situational, like negate. Also it isn't great in small scale and open field. But it's a game changer on a block tank, lock down, breach holding dk.

I disagree, it has worth to one of my characters more than any other, and the game needs more of that and less BIS DBOS type ultimates.

I didn't knew this was a role play thread.
Area denial... rofl.

''guys fall back that DK has a standart up!''

said no one ever, and no one ever will.

how can you compare a game changer ult like negate to a meme tier dk standart? It baffles me to even think about it.

What I think he meant is the way that people will move out of areas that have large ultimate's in them. People will move out of negates even if they are stamina, people will move out of Novas even though people say its crap in PvP, people will move out of DKs standards. Controlling bottle necks is a thing, mile gates, bridges, resource towers, keep towers and keep breaches. Using Standards or Novas in those types of places do a lot of good for those that are protecting or trying to slow breach in really really large fights.

In the same way I play my DK Tank in a similar way where I use chains and Swarm mother to chain people in, and even though I look like a "blocktard", and people love to attack me even when I take F all damage, me chaining people in during fights at the locations mentioned usually kills those people off very fast cause they get pulled out form their team to mine. Similarly a Area Denial spec like the commentor mentioned is a strategy that does work, its not useful in open field and might have limited results on their own, but in objective fights they can be a great boon.

Waffennacht

Nihility42 wrote: »

davey1107 wrote: »

@Nihility42

Are you sure you got EVERYTHING on your wish list for that one ability? In addition, maybe it could also:

- refresh the potion timer regardless what the countdown is
- Recharge itself
- Call out for dominos pizza, realize dominos sucks and call to cancel
- Kill nearest Templar instantly. Avada kadavra!
- discover unified theory of physics
- Open overcharge bar that gives DKs every ability in the game
- send rude email to Eric Wroebel on every use

Lol.

I'm not actually sure what you're getting at. I just responded to OP's ideas. These aren't my suggestions or a wishlist.

Come on, it's still pretty funny, unified theory of physics? Avada kadavra? It's funny (even if misdirected)

tplink3r1

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Its a unique area denial skill that helps my breach holder do it's job. I love it, needs no change imo.

Great synergy for area denial, great buff to the dk who's meant too stand tall and fight.

Its DIFFERENT and situational, like negate. Also it isn't great in small scale and open field. But it's a game changer on a block tank, lock down, breach holding dk.

I disagree, it has worth to one of my characters more than any other, and the game needs more of that and less BIS DBOS type ultimates.

I didn't knew this was a role play thread.
Area denial... rofl.

''guys fall back that DK has a standart up!''

said no one ever, and no one ever will.

how can you compare a game changer ult like negate to a meme tier dk standart? It baffles me to even think about it.

You must be new in this game, please, let me be your guide.