Crown crates aren't really gambling

billp_ESO

Crown crates aren't really gambling, they are like flipping a blank coin with no heads or tails, and then just accepting whatever ESO says the results are.

Real gambling involves odds and payouts, and you take a chance on the odds to get the payout. Real gambling, like slot machines, have to publish their odds and verify that the odds are actually correct.

ESO crown crates are like playing craps with blank dice, you roll something unknown, and ESO just tells you what they will do. It's not really gambling at all.

Jim_Pipp

No One Ever wrote:

Since you explained it that way I feel really silly for thinking it was gambling.

code65536

Gaming companies add a lot of features to their loot crates so that they are not legally considered as gambling. E.g., buying them through an intermediate virtual credit, not via cash. And also the fact that you never "lose" and come away empty-handed. You always get something (that is often undesirable).

The problem, though, is that while all these acrobatics mean that they are not technically and legally considered gambling, they aren't very effective against human perception (tough there evidently are exceptions, like the OP of this thread). As the saying goes, "If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck."

Turelus

Rather than arguing about the definitions of gambling can't we all just agree they're unfriendly and not beneficial to the consumer?

billp_ESO

[snip]

I studied actual gambling, wrote my own RNG, and started making money playing craps. In Las Vegas, the Gaming Commission makes slot machines go through tests to verify that their RNG is actually random. All games and machines have to post their actual odds.

ESO crates are not really gambling.

Personally, I think they are an abomination in a MMO game. It would be fine it they worked off of something you could earn in-game. But since they cost actual real money, they should be eliminated.

[Edit to remove quote]

JKorr

If you read the original announcement about the crates, they aren't gambling.

You are buying a crate of consumables that are supposed to be equal or better value sold in the crate than sold separately.

There is a small chance of getting something else in the crate of consumables. There is an even smaller chance of getting a special reward in the crate of consumables. There is an infinitesimal chance of getting an uber rare reward in the crate of consumables.

No gambling; you are buying consumables. Those items are guaranteed to be in the crate. Whether you attempt to get the special rewards or not is totally personal preference.

Now, if the crates were sold specifically for the chance of getting one of the special rewards without any guaranteed contents, then it would be a gamble. Is it empty, or is this one of the special rewards.....

Knowing how the rng gremlins work for me in the game means I'll never buy the rng crates. My crafters can make food, poisons and potions. If a senche/cat mount is for sale in the crown store, or a senche/cat pet is for sale at a price I am willing to pay then I'll buy it. I won't spend Akatosh knows how much for consumables, and a slight chance of maybe getting one of the special rewards.

AlienSlof

The people buying crates are not buying them for consumables - just as they probably don't directly buy consumables either. Nor are the crates marketed as 'wonderful consumables' - all the marketing glorifies the mounts.

There are the gems, but the exchange rate is a rip-off. If it was more fair, I'd possibly buy a few just to get gems. As it is currently it's just robbery.

Mureel

billp_ESO wrote: »

Crown crates aren't really gambling, they are like flipping a blank coin with no heads or tails, and then just accepting whatever ESO says the results are.

Real gambling involves odds and payouts, and you take a chance on the odds to get the payout. Real gambling, like slot machines, have to publish their odds and verify that the odds are actually correct.

ESO crown crates are like playing craps with blank dice, you roll something unknown, and ESO just tells you what they will do. It's not really gambling at all.

No it is NOT gambling, If you already know you will get garbage - how can it be gambling? xD

Sure, you have a chance at something else, but you are guaranteed 1-some of things of each other tier. It's in no way gambling.

Rouven

I didn't have to answer a math question before opening a crate so I know I'm not getting anything!

Because it's not gambling if skill is envolved, it's the law! (My local form of law.)

If you wonder what I'm talking about ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skill_testing_question


Pacrooti wonders, if five Nord go into a bar and two get really drunk, how many will come out of the bar?

tplink3r1

Why is it even relevant? It's still voluntary, gambling or not.

Balamoor

Turelus wrote: »

Rather than arguing about the definitions of gambling can't we all just agree they're unfriendly and not beneficial to the consumer?

I found them very benificial

My opinion matters too. :-)

SydneyGrey

I agree that they aren't gambling. Gambling implies that there's a good chance you'll get nothing for your money. With crates, you'll always get SOMETHING, even if it's something you don't want. They're like blind box toys, where you know you'll get a toy in the box, but you just don't know which one it will be. If crates are gambling, then blind box Minecraft mini-figures are gambling, too.

ZOS_MattL

Hey there,
We have removed several posts from this thread for being off topic and baiting. In the future before making a post be sure to follow our Community Rules.

Stewart1874

billp_ESO wrote: »

Crown crates aren't really gambling, they are like flipping a blank coin with no heads or tails, and then just accepting whatever ESO says the results are.

Real gambling involves odds and payouts, and you take a chance on the odds to get the payout. Real gambling, like slot machines, have to publish their odds and verify that the odds are actually correct.

ESO crown crates are like playing craps with blank dice, you roll something unknown, and ESO just tells you what they will do. It's not really gambling at all.

It absolutely is gambling. You are paying for something with an uncertain outcome.

That is gambling. Its about as black and white as it comes. The only reason you are guaranteed to get something out of it (be it potions or whatever other lowly rewards are on offer) is so folk actually buy them. The only certainty of loot boxes is that they contain something.

Its immoral. Get them to ***.

Hanokihs

Stewart1874 wrote: »

billp_ESO wrote: »

Crown crates aren't really gambling, they are like flipping a blank coin with no heads or tails, and then just accepting whatever ESO says the results are.

Real gambling involves odds and payouts, and you take a chance on the odds to get the payout. Real gambling, like slot machines, have to publish their odds and verify that the odds are actually correct.

ESO crown crates are like playing craps with blank dice, you roll something unknown, and ESO just tells you what they will do. It's not really gambling at all.

It absolutely is gambling. You are paying for something with an uncertain outcome.

That is gambling. Its about as black and white as it comes. The only reason you are guaranteed to get something out of it (be it potions or whatever other lowly rewards are on offer) is so folk actually buy them. The only certainty of loot boxes is that they contain something.

Its immoral. Get them to ***.

By the definition of "gamble," every instance of RNG in the game is apparently immoral. Is it immoral to have players grind dungeons and overland bosses/dolmens for specific gear? How about vMA? How about Undaunted chests with their keys and whatnot? What about the in-game holiday lootboxes that come at the end of those dailies?

Oh, but wait. Is... Is it only immoral if they're asking people to spend money, instead of asking people to waste hours upon hours of time? Because the end result is the same: you're taking a risk on an uncertain but desired outcome. You may get the weapon you want. You may get the armor piece you want. You may get the costume or crafting recipe you want. You may get the apex/radiant mount drop you want. You may not. Decide if it's worth it or not, because the odds and mechanics aren't changing. If it is worth it? Go for it. If not? Go without.

Some people prefer to save up and blow a bunch of money on attempting to get shiny trinkets that are negligibly better than what they already have. Some people prefer to sit down and blow a bunch of time attempting to get a weapon or armor set piece that's negligibly better than what they already have. Pulling back the curtain reveals the same shady, detrimental system; what makes the money route so heinous? Is it the money? Because that's silly.

Stewart1874

Hanokihs wrote: »

Stewart1874 wrote: »

billp_ESO wrote: »

Crown crates aren't really gambling, they are like flipping a blank coin with no heads or tails, and then just accepting whatever ESO says the results are.

Real gambling involves odds and payouts, and you take a chance on the odds to get the payout. Real gambling, like slot machines, have to publish their odds and verify that the odds are actually correct.

ESO crown crates are like playing craps with blank dice, you roll something unknown, and ESO just tells you what they will do. It's not really gambling at all.

It absolutely is gambling. You are paying for something with an uncertain outcome.

That is gambling. Its about as black and white as it comes. The only reason you are guaranteed to get something out of it (be it potions or whatever other lowly rewards are on offer) is so folk actually buy them. The only certainty of loot boxes is that they contain something.

Its immoral. Get them to ***.

By the definition of "gamble," every instance of RNG in the game is apparently immoral. Is it immoral to have players grind dungeons and overland bosses/dolmens for specific gear? How about vMA? How about Undaunted chests with their keys and whatnot? What about the in-game holiday lootboxes that come at the end of those dailies?

Oh, but wait. Is... Is it only immoral if they're asking people to spend money, instead of asking people to waste hours upon hours of time? Because the end result is the same: you're taking a risk on an uncertain but desired outcome. You may get the weapon you want. You may get the armor piece you want. You may get the costume or crafting recipe you want. You may get the apex/radiant mount drop you want. You may not. Decide if it's worth it or not, because the odds and mechanics aren't changing. If it is worth it? Go for it. If not? Go without.

Some people prefer to save up and blow a bunch of money on attempting to get shiny trinkets that are negligibly better than what they already have. Some people prefer to sit down and blow a bunch of time attempting to get a weapon or armor set piece that's negligibly better than what they already have. Pulling back the curtain reveals the same shady, detrimental system; what makes the money route so heinous? Is it the money? Because that's silly.

I don't think you understand the definition of gambling, here, I'll help you out.

'Gamble: Play games of chance for money; bet.'

Key point, M-O-N-E-Y, Last time I failed miserably at vMA I don't recall cracking the Visa out, so I don't think it falls under the definition of Gambling.

You do also realise that gambling has caused untold damage to individuals, families and communities right?

Moving on,

It's immoral because it is a disgusting practise aimed at milking the consumer for every penny possible. Microtransactions already achieve that, but instead they've walled off further content behind loot crates which require a separate currency only obtainable through loot crates, thereby forcing the consumer to pay for loot crates if they want the content.

Microtransactions, however disagreeable have a certain outcome. You buy an outfit you want for 500 crowns, you get said outfit. Loot crates offer no guarantees of obtaining the mount or outfit you want and are padded out with crap designed to reduce the likelihood of obtaining the more desirable mounts and outfits, to then increase the likelihood you will continue purchasing.

I could go further,

Perhaps we could talk about the visuals which are designed to target dopamine receptors to further encourage repeat purchases. The flashing, the sparkly stuff, colours etc. That makes the brain associate it as a pleasurable activity and breaks down the internal wall within ourselves which says 'time to stop, this is stupid'. The whole idea of it is designed to keep the consumer on this kind of happy medium balance of feeling rewarded yet hungry for more. Its utterly insidious and you should be free of gambling when you turn on your games console. If you want to gamble, go to a casino. This form of backdoor gambling is frankly sick.

[Snip]
[Edited to remove inappropriate content]

Slick_007

Stewart1874 wrote: »

I don't think you understand the definition of gambling, here, I'll help you out.

'Gamble: Play games of chance for money; bet.'

Key point, M-O-N-E-Y, Last time I failed miserably at vMA I don't recall cracking the Visa out, so I don't think it falls under the definition of Gambling.

let me help you out. can you tell the difference
play games of chance for money
play games of chance with money.

ESO does not do the first, which is by your own words, gambling.
removing this requires kids to be banned from buying lucky dips at your local fair, you know, since you claim thats gambling.

Stewart1874

Slick_007 wrote: »

Stewart1874 wrote: »

I don't think you understand the definition of gambling, here, I'll help you out.

'Gamble: Play games of chance for money; bet.'

Key point, M-O-N-E-Y, Last time I failed miserably at vMA I don't recall cracking the Visa out, so I don't think it falls under the definition of Gambling.

let me help you out. can you tell the difference
play games of chance for money
play games of chance with money.

ESO does not do the first, which is by your own words, gambling.
removing this requires kids to be banned from buying lucky dips at your local fair, you know, since you claim thats gambling.

so lootcrates aren't bought with real world currency? Jesus.. Load up your game mate, you're in for a surprise

I didn't realise we had moved on to picking up utterly ridiculous examples. Heres the facts, there is enough of a correlation between lootboxes and games of chance for the Belgian, Dutch and Hawaiian governments to look in to it. Interesting how they aren't looking into local fairs

If it looks like a duck...

Hanokihs

Stewart1874 wrote: »

I don't think you understand the definition of gambling, here, I'll help you out.

'Gamble: Play games of chance for money; bet.'

I don't think you can see, so I'll point out what you missed. Same Google search:

"2. take risky action in the hope of a desired result."

And another:

"2 : to stake something on a contingency (see contingency 1) : take a chance"

So really, you're only arguing semantics. Which is a fine exercise in linguistics, but undermining to the point you're trying to make.

And I get that you object to the money aspect, but I don't get why. Anyone can save up enough to blow on crates if they choose to, just like anyone can waste their time to learn vMA mechanics and grind dungeons. But it may take a really long time to finally have you want from it, and very few can afford the best of both worlds - the surplus of time AND money. But that's just life. It is what it is.

Balamoor

Stewart1874 wrote: »

billp_ESO wrote: »

Crown crates aren't really gambling, they are like flipping a blank coin with no heads or tails, and then just accepting whatever ESO says the results are.

Real gambling involves odds and payouts, and you take a chance on the odds to get the payout. Real gambling, like slot machines, have to publish their odds and verify that the odds are actually correct.

ESO crown crates are like playing craps with blank dice, you roll something unknown, and ESO just tells you what they will do. It's not really gambling at all.

It absolutely is gambling. You are paying for something with an uncertain outcome.

That is gambling. Its about as black and white as it comes. The only reason you are guaranteed to get something out of it (be it potions or whatever other lowly rewards are on offer) is so folk actually buy them. The only certainty of loot boxes is that they contain something.

Its immoral. Get them to ***.

By that logic Pokemon and MTG is gambling as well

so....since Hasbro and Wizards of the Coast has beat down that argument to the point where the plaintiffs were laughed out of court there is precedent for the so called anti- gambling crowd to lose and lose big, but who really cares? We are looking at a multi-year appeals process and already in the more extreme cases that could be challenged the industry is starting to police itself, heck look what Trion just did to the RIFT packs that were blatant pay to win.

I look for the Business model that ZoS has to stay while blatant P2W like SWBF2 and RIFTs gets self regulated.

Stewart1874

Hanokihs wrote: »

Stewart1874 wrote: »

I don't think you understand the definition of gambling, here, I'll help you out.

'Gamble: Play games of chance for money; bet.'

I don't think you can see, so I'll point out what you missed. Same Google search:

"2. take risky action in the hope of a desired result."

And another:

"2 : to stake something on a contingency (see contingency 1) : take a chance"

So really, you're only arguing semantics. Which is a fine exercise in linguistics, but undermining to the point you're trying to make.

And I get that you object to the money aspect, but I don't get why. Anyone can save up enough to blow on crates if they choose to, just like anyone can waste their time to learn vMA mechanics and grind dungeons. But it may take a really long time to finally have you want from it, and very few can afford the best of both worlds - the surplus of time AND money. But that's just life. It is what it is.

We're getting into an english debate about what gambling means

Money is spent on effectively dice (die? idgaf) rolls. That is gambling. However, I think we can accept that it is yes? So we're now debating my declaring it immoral right?

Okay, I see you're trying to equate time as a currency to highlight that there is no difference between spending time and spending money to unlock content, is that correct?

Time is just time, money is an abstract representation of ones labour. I.e it is more valuable than time because you must spend time to earn money. Every game makes you 'spend' time, recently perhaps worryingly games have went further. Rather than stopping at the price of the game they have added DLC, then evolved past that to microtransactions, to now Loot Crates. As each generation passes the overall quality of the game decreases as more and more content is held behind pay walls. That to me is immoral.

Referring back to my previous point about dopamine receptors (which has been highlighted by psychologists as true). That is immoral.

So, I'm really struggling here. What exactly are you objecting to with my use of immoral ? Factually, it is immoral what they are doing. Unless you enjoy having to crack out the wallet Every. Single. Time. you want a new outfit or mount, and even then there are no guarantees you'll even get what you want.. because you are gambling you will receive what you want from the crates.

At this point, I'm done. I believe the evidence I have put forward shows it to be the immoral practice it is and i strongly believe trying to justify Loot crates is only going to make companies go further in what liberties they can take from the consumer. If you disagree and enjoy gambling that is your prerogative, however that does not change the blatant immorality of Loot crates and their negative impact on consumers.

JKorr

AlienSlof wrote: »

The people buying crates are not buying them for consumables - just as they probably don't directly buy consumables either. Nor are the crates marketed as 'wonderful consumables' - all the marketing glorifies the mounts.

There are the gems, but the exchange rate is a rip-off. If it was more fair, I'd possibly buy a few just to get gems. As it is currently it's just robbery.

True. However it seems the CYA aspect is/was they are selling the crates for the consumables. Or at least that is how I read the announcement. https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/25871

This Thursday, we'll be introducing the first season of Crown Crates to the ESO Crown Store. Crown Crates are purchased through the Crown Store, and contain a randomized selection of useful consumables and collectibles that are valued more than the price of a single crate. In addition, they also offer a chance to obtain unique cosmetic items, pets, or mounts. Crown Crates include new and exclusive items, as well as some items you might have missed in previous limited time offers.

Whenever you purchase a Crown Crate, you will always be awarded four items, with the chance to get a fifth item. In the event you receive a mount, pet, costume or personality that you already own from your Crown Crate, you'll be awarded a new resource - Crown Gems - in its place. You will also have the option to convert several items obtained from Crown Crates to Crown Gems any time you want. Items that can be manually converted include potions, poisons, riding lessons, experience scrolls, and other utility-type items. Any Crown Gems you earn can then be used to purchase the collectible items of your choosing from the current Crown Crate season.

Each Crown Crate is associated with a special “Season" that will include uniquely themed items, and will be cycled quarterly. We're kicking off the first season of Crown Crates with the electrifying Storm Atronach theme.

The original version of the crates in the pts didn't have any option at all for trading back the consumables. You only got gems for duplicates. There were many, many posts about the total uselessness [and really overabundance] of the potions, food and poisons because the crafters could make better versions of everything except the super experience scroll. When that was pointed out, the "mythic aetherial ambrosia" recipe was added, with the uber rare dust, always rare perfect roe, and a second copy of the basic ambrosia recipe required, so they were still [barely] within the "the crown store will never sell anything better than what the players can craft" statement.

A possible reason why they will *never* give a better exchange rate for items/gems: if they exchanged gems per poison/potion instead of per card, you'd accumulate gems too quickly and if they gave more than 1/3 of the value of apex rewards in gems again, you would accumulate gems too quickly. If you manage to get a lot of gems you will be able to simply *buy* the item you want, and you will stop buying crates. The entire point of the person hired to monetize stuff as much as possible is to encourage people to buy *more* crates. There were a lot of posts after the crates started from people who said "I bought X number of crates, and didn't get the apex reward I wanted, BUT I *did* get enough gems to buy the apex reward I wanted, so I'm done with the crates until they come up with something I really want." I'll guess that isn't what they wanted to hear. I'm not really surprised that super rare special apex rewards you can't buy with gems showed up....

Slick_007

Stewart1874 wrote: »

so lootcrates aren't bought with real world currency? Jesus.. Load up your game mate, you're in for a surprise

I didn't realise we had moved on to picking up utterly ridiculous examples. Heres the facts, there is enough of a correlation between lootboxes and games of chance for the Belgian, Dutch and Hawaiian governments to look in to it. Interesting how they aren't looking into local fairs

If it looks like a duck...

you cant even understand your own argument. i guess you cant be expected to understand anything opposed to it.
your own definition of gambling is playing games of chance FOR money - that means to win money. not spend it.
buying a lucky dip at your local fair spends money but the prize is NOT money. same as loot crates

in your definition, you may end up with nothing. in the second definition, you are guaranteed to get something. you are buying something.
if you cant tell the difference you have bigger issues than this to worry about.

Jade1986

billp_ESO wrote: »

Crown crates aren't really gambling, they are like flipping a blank coin with no heads or tails, and then just accepting whatever ESO says the results are.

Real gambling involves odds and payouts, and you take a chance on the odds to get the payout. Real gambling, like slot machines, have to publish their odds and verify that the odds are actually correct.

ESO crown crates are like playing craps with blank dice, you roll something unknown, and ESO just tells you what they will do. It's not really gambling at all.

I have been a rabid advocate of getting rid of them and their poison. And after I got 30 crates and got absolute squat, it has reaffirmed my hatred toward companies that do this kind of crap, and people who support this kind of crap.

Jade1986

Slick_007 wrote: »

Stewart1874 wrote: »

so lootcrates aren't bought with real world currency? Jesus.. Load up your game mate, you're in for a surprise

I didn't realise we had moved on to picking up utterly ridiculous examples. Heres the facts, there is enough of a correlation between lootboxes and games of chance for the Belgian, Dutch and Hawaiian governments to look in to it. Interesting how they aren't looking into local fairs

If it looks like a duck...

you cant even understand your own argument. i guess you cant be expected to understand anything opposed to it.
your own definition of gambling is playing games of chance FOR money - that means to win money. not spend it.
buying a lucky dip at your local fair spends money but the prize is NOT money. same as loot crates

in your definition, you may end up with nothing. in the second definition, you are guaranteed to get something. you are buying something.
if you cant tell the difference you have bigger issues than this to worry about.

L.oL.

Gambling doesnt have to be just money.

RNG crates are literally like if you paid a car dealer 10 thousand Euro that was doing a game of chance where the prize was a, single tire, a pair of breaks, the frame of a rusted mustang, some old screws, a beat down vw beatle, a porsch, a Rols Royce, and a Lambo, then you get a bucket of bolts as a prize. If you dont see anything wrong with that, then there is literally nothing anyone could say to change your mind. You are literally arguing against your own self interest.

Banana

Real money for RNG is ***

Hanokihs

Stewart1874 wrote: »

We're getting into an english debate about what gambling means

Money is spent on effectively dice (die? idgaf) rolls. That is gambling. However, I think we can accept that it is yes? So we're now debating my declaring it immoral right?

Okay, I see you're trying to equate time as a currency to highlight that there is no difference between spending time and spending money to unlock content, is that correct?

Time is just time, money is an abstract representation of ones labour. I.e it is more valuable than time because you must spend time to earn money. Every game makes you 'spend' time, recently perhaps worryingly games have went further. Rather than stopping at the price of the game they have added DLC, then evolved past that to microtransactions, to now Loot Crates. As each generation passes the overall quality of the game decreases as more and more content is held behind pay walls. That to me is immoral.

Referring back to my previous point about dopamine receptors (which has been highlighted by psychologists as true). That is immoral.

So, I'm really struggling here. What exactly are you objecting to with my use of immoral ? Factually, it is immoral what they are doing. Unless you enjoy having to crack out the wallet Every. Single. Time. you want a new outfit or mount, and even then there are no guarantees you'll even get what you want.. because you are gambling you will receive what you want from the crates.

At this point, I'm done. I believe the evidence I have put forward shows it to be the immoral practice it is and i strongly believe trying to justify Loot crates is only going to make companies go further in what liberties they can take from the consumer. If you disagree and enjoy gambling that is your prerogative, however that does not change the blatant immorality of Loot crates and their negative impact on consumers.

Glad you agree with me on the semantics aspect. If you can see that debating definitions is pointless and silly, then you should also be able to see my point: the whole game is perched atop a foundation of various gambles. Anything kissed/cursed by RNG is a gamble, whether you spend money on it, or time. One is, arguably, no more heinous than another; it's all a matter of perspective. Some people have more time than money, and some have more money than time; both sides spend their resources accordingly, making an appropriate sacrifice along the way.

I probably won't ever carry a Malestrom weapon or paint my toons in Abyssal Beryl, but if a Radiant mount shows up and it speaks to my heart, I am getting it. Similarly, some people will never obtain an Apex mount they like, but they can top all the leaderboards or be Emperor any time they get the gumption.

Radiance

Call it whatever you want, the fact remains the Crown Crate system and constant Deadline Timers are hinged on PREDATORY MARKETING practices. These are manipulative methods used to project the ILLUSION OF EXCLUSIVITY in order to INFLATE the value of Pixels, Data that can be instantly Copy & Paste replicated millions of times at no cost.

"If you want this item, you must Pay this amount before this time OR you must buy as many boxes as it takes for us to deem you worthy of this."

I've never been a fan but until this latest reintroduction of Storm/ Wild Hunt Crates, I perceived the Crown Crate's random card draw as an introduction into a secondary marketing system. The absence of the option to SPEND GEMS acquired by already having bought Crown Crates is quite literally Inciting Gambling and unacceptable to me. I am Morally Opposed to Gambling and could not bring myself to buy crates this time around and will not likely be buying them for the foreseeable future based on principle. They'll have to display some serious originality for me to go back on that declaration. I'm not saying crown crates should be removed but they SHOULD UPHOLD the USE of their GEM CURRENCY on ALL Crown Crates OR Open the showcase to Free purchase using regular Crowns. People want to spend money but this current system is abusive to their customers in the sense they are left with feelings of Regret and Disdain after putting so much money into a temporary entertainment system that doesn't value their time spent investing in their creation.

My only comment to the passively Content who say "That's just the way it is, If you don't like it, don't play" Why do anything by that logic, if everything just IS regardless of out actions... This whole ESO world is by design and can be changed at a moments notice, the question is, Will they!? And the answer to that is, Yes, if a big enough player base stands together to demand it... Your disbelief in the possibility is a manifestation of the lack of your own willingness to try or you simply don't care which is all fine and well for you but that doesn't diminish the concerns of the ones who do...

Zbigb4life

billp_ESO wrote: »

Crown crates aren't really gambling, they are like flipping a blank coin with no heads or tails, and then just accepting whatever ESO says the results are.

Real gambling involves odds and payouts, and you take a chance on the odds to get the payout. Real gambling, like slot machines, have to publish their odds and verify that the odds are actually correct.

ESO crown crates are like playing craps with blank dice, you roll something unknown, and ESO just tells you what they will do. It's not really gambling at all.

Offcourse it's gambling...

billp_ESO

Perhaps what I should have said is that Crown Crates aren't gambling in the sense of legal gambling. In legal gambling, the odds are posted, the prizes are posted, and the RNG is verified to be actually random. In Las Vegas, these are all required. When you put money into an actual gambling machine, you know what the odds of winning are, you know what the prizes are.

Since we have no idea if ESO's RNG is actually random, or even if it is actually used, Crown Crates wouldn't pass the requirements of official legal gambling.

For all we know, ESO could be manipulating the so-called "RNG" so that specific users have different chances of winning than others. Maybe ESO targets whales after accumulating psychological profiles, and targets them specifically. Would you still call that gambling?

Crown Crates are a game of chance, that is true, but you have no idea what the chances are. For $100 I'll let you pick a card from an unknown number of cards, and the winning card is also unknown. I'm free to say win or lose anytime I want. Is that really gambling?

Darkstorne

Some interesting responses in here. Crown Crates are quite clearly predatory, and as a result should be heavily regulated whether you think they classify as gambling or not (claw machines for example aren't considered gambling, yet are still regulated), yet there are a few posters in here going to great lengths to try and defend their susceptibility to getting blatantly ripped off every 3 months. I feel sorry for them