So I am seeing a lot of fake tank hate...

lagrue

I feel bad because on PS4 our dungeon runners are toxic beyond reason. Even at CP 570 something now, I've never done many Dungeons - I'm learning the mechanics.

But at the same time, my friend who I just introduced to the game, has played for 2 weeks and is now CP100, is just learning the ropes of his role as Tank.

We're only doing NORMAL dungeons, and people keep trashing him for not being the best tank in the game. Sending 'VTK' in the chat, telling him he's stupid.

I play DPS, had one healer the other night who didn't give me any heals (I know because I have incoming heal numbers on) - he was fighting the boss the whole time - and rather than admit he wasn't healing, he went on a huge rant about my friend who's currently learning how to tank blaming him. Because ya know - it's his fault I wasn't being healed by the healer from enemy DoTs on the ground - lke the tank has any true bearing of poison clouds everywhere....

There's too much hate in general, in the dungeons. People need to realize this is a game with 100s of hours of content, we aren't all dungeon runners - and when we do want to start learning, like holy heck, have a little faith we can make it through with some communication.

If it was vet content I'd understand, but the amount of rage in regular level dungeons is just sad.

Amadis001

lagrue wrote: »

If it was vet content I'd understand, but the amount of rage in regular level dungeons is just sad.

Life is too short. *** in dungeons has nothing to do with tanks good or bad. I just vote to kick when someone is raging and if I don’t get the vote then I leave myself. Every once in a while I have to make it clear that it’s him or me and the vast majority of the time they kick him.

Having said that, I think you always have to keep your ears open for valid criticism and try to look past the tone of voice. I got yelled out a few times when I was first learning to tank and I learned some of the most important basics from that feedback. Of course I also learned from some very cool dudes who are able to coach me and not berate me, but that’s clearly a relatively rare situation.

victoriana-blue

I blame the fake tanks for the general lack of knowledge on letting tanks do their job. If no one ever explained why the dps need to let the tank drop 1-3 aoes before engaging themselves, or they never see the difference in damage when the tank holds the boss still, or experience proper debuffs, there's no reason for them to know how to play with a tank instead of 3 dps.

"It's just a normal"? Screw that, most normals go a heck of a lot faster with someone to group adds, stay in place, and control boss movement. (Like that bone flayer boss in CoH I: soooo much easier when he's just side to side, not in danger of resetting.) And that's just what I ended up doing on my under-50 sorc dps several times this week when the fake tanks were ineffective, not to mention all the buffs & other benefits real tanks bring.

If normals are supposed to be a stepping stone for vet and a quick run for max level folks, fake tanks interfere with everyone. I'll happily wait an extra ten minutes in the dps queue if it means I'll get a real tank.

cazlonb16_ESO wrote: »

Now picture a tank that's not a DK...And half of these bullet points fall flat already.

A couple of those points aren't needed. I don't wear ebon or use warhorn in four-person content because 1k health doesn't save dps who are standing in red and warhorn is more effective on people with high dps to start with (which isn't a guarantee in pugs).

As a nb tank I bring off-heals that help with dps and a much more dynamic style than "hold it in place." I can take advantage of different gear (like swarm mother or bogdan), I have a class gap-close that doesn't scatter enemies, and I'm constantly crit-healing. That said, I need to PvP some more if I want to get Barrier and I don't perma-block. Different strengths for different classes & set-ups.

Tasear

You know... what take awesome for having so many tanks.

Zyjin

I don't think tanks are really thankless anymore than any other role. I mean, if tanks are thankless, then what about healers and DPS etc? Do they not deserve thanks as well?

Honestly in normal dungeons, if you have a taunt and taunt the boss you're doing good enough for me ;p.

Veteran and trials require a lot more, but I only expect a tank in a normal dungeon to taunt the boss and that's basically it. If you don't even have a taunt though, I don't think you should even be queuing as tank, because how else are you going to draw agro?

I mean I've run plenty no tank dungeons with the event, and in the end, it doesn't bother me in normal dungeons, but that still is my only real expectation for tanks. I expect healers to heal, Tanks to Tank, and DPS to do DPS.

And that's all you can really expect I mean in normal dungeons, considering the wide skill gap present.

ookami007

josiahva wrote: »

This is more just an observation. I play tanks for the most part, I have 3 different tanks I mainly play. I have my pure tank I use for difficult content, I have my DPS/Tank hybrid I use for normal dungeons and non-DLC vet dungeons, and I have a Warden healer/Tank hybrid that I just mess around on from time to time. I enjoy playing the support role for whatever reason. So I am quite amused with all the hate going around for fake tanks simply because under normal conditions I see no respect whatsoever for tanks(Yes, I am talking to you, you people who think their DPS is so awesome they go aggroing a mob before I can get there to position them correctly and keep them together causing them to scatter all over the room and making me waste resources grouping them back up). But, when real tanks become more scarce due to events like this...its these same people who want to kick fake tanks and cry about tanks that don't perform the role. The point being that if you want more people to tank, you need to show some respect for the role and not treat them as if they are superfluous, otherwise incompetent tanks will proliferate.

I see no point whatsoever in your post. I don't see any hate or lack of respect for ACTUAL TANKS. An ACTUAL tank is a tank that knows his job, knows the mechanics and carries at least one taunt.

A fake tank is someone who ISN'T a tank, has no desire to tank, no knowledge of tanking, and no taunt, and yet, queues as a tank to game the system and get into a dungeon faster. In otherwise, a fraud (a swindler, a con artist, a trickster, deceiver... like a line jumper at the park).

So, no... no one has love for those people, nor should they.

And yes, I have tanks and have tanked all non-dlc content and many dlc content. I take exception to some idiot who wants to cheat the dungeon finder system (it's already broken enough) because he doesn't want to level up his own tank and doesn't feel like waiting.

Alpheu5

Zyjin wrote: »

I don't think tanks are really thankless anymore than any other role. I mean, if tanks are thankless, then what about healers and DPS etc? Do they not deserve thanks as well?

Honestly in normal dungeons, if you have a taunt and taunt the boss you're doing good enough for me ;p.

Veteran and trials require a lot more, but I only expect a tank in a normal dungeon to taunt the boss and that's basically it. If you don't even have a taunt though, I don't think you should even be queuing as tank, because how else are you going to draw agro?

I mean I've run plenty no tank dungeons with the event, and in the end, it doesn't bother me in normal dungeons, but that still is my only real expectation for tanks. I expect healers to heal, Tanks to Tank, and DPS to do DPS.

And that's all you can really expect I mean in normal dungeons, considering the wide skill gap present.

Usually when I say they're thankless, I mean that there are those that think the content can be completed just as easily without them. DPS isn't thankless because nobody wants to spent 5 hours in a dungeon hacking away at bosses. I'm sure a group could very easily complete vCoS with 2 tanks and 2 healers, but the next chapter would probably be live by the time they finish.

NyassaV

I will often queue as a tank (unless it's a vet DLC dungeon). But I can actually do all roles, sometimes it's just faster if I DPS. So stop complaining... Especially if it's normal mode

Jade1986

Runefang wrote: »

Jade1986 wrote: »

Solution to fake tank hate, people stop queuing as tank if not tank.

Your solution creates problems. The queue for normal dungeons is now twice as long.

And those that are 'real' tanks, are crap more often than 'fake' tanks are.

That has been the way it is in mmos forever. If you dont want to wait, dont play a dps, but dont fake role and then expect someone else to run out and tank.

Jamini

Spacemonkey wrote: »

blackheart haven (well pirate skelly dungeon, i think thats the one) on vet. 3rd boss has a random range one hit-ability that barely tickled me and our tank, but kept oneshotting the two dpses.

so we jsut chose to stop reviving them after like the tenth time (somewhat to their request I must say, repair costs lol)


The boss literaly barely dmged us. But took forever to kill... (tank + healer). Id like to point out I barely needed to do any healing at all.

But yeah. DPS are so l33t. Because of DPS we have bosses with crazy health pools, half the dungeons with harder mechanics are dps races. -.- death to dpses.

If I remember right, that's the melee mini-boss in the Hangraven area right? (First boss is the argonian that kicks you with a huge knockback and an unblockable, second is an ogrim?)

That move can and should be inturrupted. That's your man job in that fight, as a tank, to bash it. Your DPS wiping in that fight is pretty much totally on you.

No offense.

Defilted

In a normal or non-DLC Vet dungeon, As long as you are taunting something if needed based on your group makeup and not dying then you are tanking.

My concern is not in a normal dungeon when I am running my 690 DPS/Healers/tanks through. Now if I am running a level 35 nightblade(Which I was during the event) that has not yet got all the self heals and survive-ability skills and the person marked as a tank or a healer cannot do just the tiniest little bit of that role, then this is when i get annoyed.

If I am marked as a healer, but not really a healer then the expectations of everyone else(in the group) is that I can heal. So I better equip a resto staff just in case I got to throw a heal at the bare minimum. In a normal dungeon you are going to get all levels from level 10 to CP 690. You might have to help the low guys with a few heals or taunts and I think that if you queue as a tank/healer you better damn well be prepared to do it.

First world problem I know. I am not going to loose sleep over it, but if you Queue as a role you better be prepared to attempt that role if you are called upon to do so in the dungeon.

Ertthewolf

Just run three tanky werewolf hybrid builds and a heavy armor healer lol. Plenty of dps and we all can take a hit. Been running vet dungeons including all dlc like this forever.

exeeter702

Jade1986 wrote: »

Solution to fake tank hate, people stop queuing as tank if not tank.

waitwhat

Alpheu5 wrote: »

Zyjin wrote: »

I don't think tanks are really thankless anymore than any other role. I mean, if tanks are thankless, then what about healers and DPS etc? Do they not deserve thanks as well?

Honestly in normal dungeons, if you have a taunt and taunt the boss you're doing good enough for me ;p.

Veteran and trials require a lot more, but I only expect a tank in a normal dungeon to taunt the boss and that's basically it. If you don't even have a taunt though, I don't think you should even be queuing as tank, because how else are you going to draw agro?

I mean I've run plenty no tank dungeons with the event, and in the end, it doesn't bother me in normal dungeons, but that still is my only real expectation for tanks. I expect healers to heal, Tanks to Tank, and DPS to do DPS.

And that's all you can really expect I mean in normal dungeons, considering the wide skill gap present.

Usually when I say they're thankless, I mean that there are those that think the content can be completed just as easily without them. DPS isn't thankless because nobody wants to spent 5 hours in a dungeon hacking away at bosses. I'm sure a group could very easily complete vCoS with 2 tanks and 2 healers, but the next chapter would probably be live by the time they finish.

I agree with this part about tanking being thankless, and it applies to healers too, but not DPS.

The truth of the matter is this: People inordinately value DPS roles because much of the extant end-game PvE content inordinately prioritizes the DPS role, causing tanks and healers to be inordinately undervalued/underappreciated. Until recently, ESO's PvE designers weren't as adept as they are now, and thus much of the earlier content boils down to a dps race (e.g. Kena hardmode, vMoL Rakkhat, vAA Mage, vHRC Warrior, vAA Ghost Boss, vHRC Welwa Boss, vSO Serpent, vSO Overchargers, vDSA Dark Mage boss, vDSA Hiath the Battlemaster, ALL of vMA, and etc.). Balanced mechanics are hard to design and implement, DPS checks much less so, and DPS-race mechanics shift the burden of being inventive to the players, who must figure out the min-maxed build requirements to pass the DPS check.

It's a deficiency in design that is now thankfully being corrected by Horns of the Reach and Clockwork City. You can't four-dps Cernunnon's one-shots, and vAS Olms + 2 is not a dps race. Even most of vHoF is a mechanics check first, and a dps check second.

Honestly, I'd love to see some threads about how the paradigm of "more damage is the solution to everything" underlies so many of the complaints we have about PvE. It's the reason tanking and healing boil down to a combo of four sets every single patch since OT dropped. It's the reason behind the underappreciated support roles. It's the reason so many creative tanking sets (Automated Defense, Resilient Yokeda, Lunar Bastion) get called 'trash'.

Olms having 99.2MM health is a sign. Down with dps.

Unlikely_Ghostbuster

It's absolutely true -- fake tanks and fake healers have been an issue throughout this event. I cannot say how much in normal dungeons as I don't run them, but in veteran difficulty, it's been fairly consistent.

There are some dungeons I simply won't run unless I am doing it with my own main tank simply because the tank absolutely MUST be on top of the mechanics for the run to succeed, such as Bloodroot Forge. If your tank doesn't plug the lava geysers, then everyone dies. If your tank doesn't taunt all three amalgams, then everyone dies.

I have eight dungeon-ready characters. Two of them are tanks -- an Argonian DK whose tanking success relies upon maintaining block and the healing received, and an Orc DK whose resistances are through the roof. I prefer the Orc build because I can almost always maintain my resources with heavy attacks and minimal help from the healer. The Argonian is a more dangerous juggling act with potions and heavy attacks when I don't have a reliable healer. With either tank, I don't rely upon shards and orbs -- I have learned through dozens of PUGs that they won't always be there. I chain & root mobs with both tanks and do my best to work around the once-infrequent DPS moron who thinks they can pull mobs, themselves.

I also have two viable healers, one templar and one Warden. It's much easier to heal with my templar and my warden healer still needs to get orbs, but I've never been accused of "bad healing" on either character because I know the responsibilities of the healer role almost as well as I understand the tank role.

My other four "dungeon-ready" characters are all DPS. BUT, because of the fake tanks AND fake healers, this past week, I've absolutely dreaded running dungeon content on my DPS characters. Why? Because for the last week, there have been more incompetent tanks and healers than NOT. Because there hasn't been zero guarantee the tank and healer will fulfill their roles properly, let alone abide by the mechanics of the dungeon. Because it takes at least 20 minutes to get into a random veteran dungeon when you honestly queue as a DPS. Because it's astoundingly frustrating when the other members of your group lied to skip ahead of the queue.

I joined a PUG veteran BC run late and immediately saw why the other DPS(s) dropped -- the "tank" had 19k health and was trying to kite the incineration beetles. It was truly a spectacle of idiocy. The healer was fake, too -- the only spell the "healer" used was rapid regeneration... that's it. Fire all over, almost nowhere safe to stand, with moving targets, and no healing. I've had more enjoyable visits to the dentist. I have never experienced such incompetence in veteran BC.

Let's face facts: THIS EVENT HAS BEEN A MISERABLE FAILURE.

The mystery boxes didn't help new players grow into better players. It incentivized LYING.

Whoever is responsible for concocting this rock-stupid "event" should be publicly flogged. Nobody has enjoyed it.

All this week has accomplished is making it glaringly apparent that completely unrestricted PUGs for random veteran dungeons are DUMB. One player can ruin it for the other three, which is not right. Veteran dungeon content should be restricted to players who have completed every group dungeon on normal FIRST -- no queueing for veteran content right out of the gate. There need to be qualifying conditions!

VETERAN DIFFICULTY SHOULD HAVE PREREQUISITES.

Sad to say it, but some players are either too dishonest and/or too incompetent to judge their own fitness for content rated at veteran difficulty. If this dumb event has shown the community anything, it's that: scrubs shouldn't be permitted to jump right into vet-dungeons they're NOT prepared to handle.

ZioGio

I have to chuckle reading through this thread because of what happened during this morning's normal dungeon random PUG.

I've only been queuing for random dungeons for a week (CP 320+, but almost all of it through overland questing) to take advantage of the last event, but I always play a healer in other MMOs so I was comfortable respec'ing and gearing my Templar as a dedicated healer.

Every random PUG during the week has been great. We hardly ever chat, but each person seemed to know their role. No arguments, no frustration. Even when I accidently queued for a veteran dungeon, we only had problems at the last boss where we wiped so many times we all agreed, amicably, to call it.

Then this morning I got my first PUG made up of three glass cannons who ran through the content and decided to tap the first boss and everything around it. Two dropped almost instantly and I had to keep up a steady stream of HoTs, DoTs, and direct heals on the third to keep him alive. Eventually the two of us downed the boss and the minions.

That's when the survivor turned to me and said "Don't queue as a healer if you don't know how to heal."

I said "Excuse me?"

"You let the other two die and never threw out a heal that I could see."

I said "I did nothing but heal you through that boss fight!"

He retorted "Learn to heal."

Yep, I got the infamous "fake tank" group with a "blame the healer for the DPS' stupidity" for good measure.

Quit group, got coffee, came back, re-queued, got a random PUG with a real tank and DPS who knew what they were doing. I wonder how many healers that other group went though?

jaschacasadiob16_ESO

Amadis001 wrote: »

If you don't care about fake tanks, ...

You misunderstood me, then.
I totally dislike people queuing up as tank when they are not.
On the other hand, if you are a DD but you can taunt (I won't have the Lava Queen on me all the time) and wont go down with a hit that's at least acceptable. If you can't do any of that I vote kick you. If the vote fails, I let them die and leave.

AtraisMachina2

Hahaha dungeons are easy. Lmk if you have problems with people queueing improperly. Ill help you out with your toon. Lol

Icy_Waffles

LeagueTroll wrote: »

Yeah, like i have to bring my real tank to waste time with bunch sub 20k dps potatoes.

Yeah seriously, i find i have to end up doing dps just to finish the freaking run

Girl_Number8

lagrue wrote: »

I feel bad because on PS4 our dungeon runners are toxic beyond reason. Even at CP 570 something now, I've never done many Dungeons - I'm learning the mechanics.

But at the same time, my friend who I just introduced to the game, has played for 2 weeks and is now CP100, is just learning the ropes of his role as Tank.

We're only doing NORMAL dungeons, and people keep trashing him for not being the best tank in the game. Sending 'VTK' in the chat, telling him he's stupid.

I play DPS, had one healer the other night who didn't give me any heals (I know because I have incoming heal numbers on) - he was fighting the boss the whole time - and rather than admit he wasn't healing, he went on a huge rant about my friend who's currently learning how to tank blaming him. Because ya know - it's his fault I wasn't being healed by the healer from enemy DoTs on the ground - lke the tank has any true bearing of poison clouds everywhere....

There's too much hate in general, in the dungeons. People need to realize this is a game with 100s of hours of content, we aren't all dungeon runners - and when we do want to start learning, like holy heck, have a little faith we can make it through with some communication.

If it was vet content I'd understand, but the amount of rage in regular level dungeons is just sad.

I am so sorry for your experience. Please report and block players that are breaking the tos. My best advice is to find a guild that helps new players with dungeons. My guild has gotten new players through every dungeon in the game. A good way to know if the guild is nice is simply asked them to help you with a dungeon you and your friend want to do, if they take you right away or set it for that week it may be a good fit. It's a game it should be fun and enjoyable.

Your friend should also check out https://woeler.eu

I believe he is on the forums here as well.

Niobium

Spacemonkey wrote: »

blackheart haven (well pirate skelly dungeon, i think thats the one) on vet. 3rd boss has a random range one hit-ability that barely tickled me and our tank, but kept oneshotting the two dpses.

This is another point about tanks not knowing or understanding mechanics. This should have been interrupted and the tank is in the best position do just that. Can others in the group interrupt? Sure, but the tank is the one standing right there, in the boss's face and likely has the stamina to bash it without breaking a sweat.

The dps death here is on your tank, not the dps.

Dracofyre wrote: »

devs need to take away one-shot kills ability, it wrong on many ways.

I'm not familiar with any one shot kill abilities that can't be interrupted or avoided in dungeons via learning mechanics.

josiahva

victoriana-blue wrote: »

I blame the fake tanks for the general lack of knowledge on letting tanks do their job. If no one ever explained why the dps need to let the tank drop 1-3 aoes before engaging themselves, or they never see the difference in damage when the tank holds the boss still, or experience proper debuffs, there's no reason for them to know how to play with a tank instead of 3 dps.

"It's just a normal"? Screw that, most normals go a heck of a lot faster with someone to group adds, stay in place, and control boss movement. (Like that bone flayer boss in CoH I: soooo much easier when he's just side to side, not in danger of resetting.) And that's just what I ended up doing on my under-50 sorc dps several times this week when the fake tanks were ineffective, not to mention all the buffs & other benefits real tanks bring.

If normals are supposed to be a stepping stone for vet and a quick run for max level folks, fake tanks interfere with everyone. I'll happily wait an extra ten minutes in the dps queue if it means I'll get a real tank.

cazlonb16_ESO wrote: »

Now picture a tank that's not a DK...And half of these bullet points fall flat already.

A couple of those points aren't needed. I don't wear ebon or use warhorn in four-person content because 1k health doesn't save dps who are standing in red and warhorn is more effective on people with high dps to start with (which isn't a guarantee in pugs).

As a nb tank I bring off-heals that help with dps and a much more dynamic style than "hold it in place." I can take advantage of different gear (like swarm mother or bogdan), I have a class gap-close that doesn't scatter enemies, and I'm constantly crit-healing. That said, I need to PvP some more if I want to get Barrier and I don't perma-block. Different strengths for different classes & set-ups.

Speaking of that bone flayer guy I am STILL trying to find a way to hold him relatively motionless. Sometimes I am able to trap him between a column and the wall, but he still seems to make a break for it every once in awhile. I don't have nearly the trouble with the one in vaults of madness. Not that that little bit of tanking frustration has anything to do with this thread in general...

Ashtaris

There are DPS that get it, and others that don’t. The ones that wait for the tank to pull the agro, use chains to pull in the outside mobs and root the rest, and the DPS knows when and how to strike. And then there are those Leroy DPS types that jump into the middle of the mob, take all the agro, and die declaring “WTF just happened”, usually blaming the healer or tank for their stupidity. Like I said, some get it, and some don’t

zyk

What is a fake tank?

Is it:

- the player with a 40k hp heavy armor permablock build who excels at pressing a taunt key and not dying

OR

- the player with a 16-20k hp build who can hold agro, heal himself and still contribute 15-30k dps? (or in the case of trash, 50-120k)

I'm not into ESO PVE. I find scripted combat boring. The only time I played PVE vet dungeons regularly was during 2.5 and 2.6. My partner at the time and I completed most vet dungeons duo. I completed quite a few solo. I was able to tank all of the vet non-DLC vet dungeons with 16-20k HP Magicka NB and DK builds np. I tanked quite a few with Stam DPS builds too.

Was I a fake tank? I would say no, because I did the job. As long as someone can perform the role, they are a real tank.

Do I sound elitist? I don't think so because I suck at PVE. (and many would say PVP too!) I do not have a single optimized PVE build and my rotations are inefficient and poorly executed. It's just not a trinity game most of the time.

DMuehlhausen

josiahva wrote: »

This is more just an observation. I play tanks for the most part, I have 3 different tanks I mainly play. I have my pure tank I use for difficult content, I have my DPS/Tank hybrid I use for normal dungeons and non-DLC vet dungeons, and I have a Warden healer/Tank hybrid that I just mess around on from time to time. I enjoy playing the support role for whatever reason. So I am quite amused with all the hate going around for fake tanks simply because under normal conditions I see no respect whatsoever for tanks(Yes, I am talking to you, you people who think their DPS is so awesome they go aggroing a mob before I can get there to position them correctly and keep them together causing them to scatter all over the room and making me waste resources grouping them back up). But, when real tanks become more scarce due to events like this...its these same people who want to kick fake tanks and cry about tanks that don't perform the role. The point being that if you want more people to tank, you need to show some respect for the role and not treat them as if they are superfluous, otherwise incompetent tanks will proliferate.

Tanks and healers are always going to take the blame for DD screw up. Always has always will be.

That being said this event did cause a problem since a lot of people were running Normal since it was the same rewards. So DD, more geared, would queue as tank cause you should still be able to finish the dungeon. People weren't happy about it since sometimes pure dps isn't good enough to get through some fights that require a block here and there.

Samadhi

zyk wrote: »

What is a fake tank?

Is it:

- the player with a 40k hp heavy armor permablock build who excels at pressing a taunt key and not dying

OR

- the player with a 16-20k hp build who can hold agro, heal himself and still contribute 15-30k dps? (or in the case of trash, 50-120k)
...

Neither example is,
a Tank with 20k hp may have another 20k in shields as well,
it does not matter how the tank mitigates damage to survive
the base requirements are take aggro/interrupt AoEs so teammates are not taking damage, and not die while doing so
beyond that, holding the boss still and providing buffs to increase party damage or decrease their damage taken just improves the presence

if your second example instead said:

zyk wrote: »

...
- the player with a 16-20k hp build who can hold agro, heal himself and still contribute 15-30k dps? (or in the case of trash, 50-120k)
...

That one little change is all it really takes to make a difference,
if someone jumps the queue as a tank, they simply need to be able to survive and keep the rest of the party from taking unnecessary damage

You mention contributing significant DPS; that is fine as it is a style of tanking
given that a number of skills in ESO provide self-healing based off of a % of the damage done,
running a high damage build is perfectly valid to such ends,
tanking is not defined by a single rigid playstyle or build, but rather by the results in action

there is not much in the way of complaint about a tank pulling weight through individual damage rather than group utility
in instances like a Nightblade sap tank, more magicka and spell damage means more powerful heals off Sap Essence and more powerful HoT off Swallow Soul and Refreshing Path
a number of the heals Nighblade has (especially if opting for Funnel rather than the Minor Vitality slot bonus) provide added utility to the group based on damage stats
In contrast, a DK can provide greater group utility when built for Health to provide a more powerful shield buff

but someone queued as a tank who does not taunt,
or who runs around continually pulling the boss out of ground AoEs forcing higher resource expenditure for the people who waited on DPS queue
is effectively making the dungeon worse for the other group members

Anhedonie

Another fake taxitank thread?

idk

lagrue wrote: »

I feel bad because on PS4 our dungeon runners are toxic beyond reason. Even at CP 570 something now, I've never done many Dungeons - I'm learning the mechanics.

But at the same time, my friend who I just introduced to the game, has played for 2 weeks and is now CP100, is just learning the ropes of his role as Tank.

We're only doing NORMAL dungeons, and people keep trashing him for not being the best tank in the game. Sending 'VTK' in the chat, telling him he's stupid.

I play DPS, had one healer the other night who didn't give me any heals (I know because I have incoming heal numbers on) - he was fighting the boss the whole time - and rather than admit he wasn't healing, he went on a huge rant about my friend who's currently learning how to tank blaming him. Because ya know - it's his fault I wasn't being healed by the healer from enemy DoTs on the ground - lke the tank has any true bearing of poison clouds everywhere....

There's too much hate in general, in the dungeons. People need to realize this is a game with 100s of hours of content, we aren't all dungeon runners - and when we do want to start learning, like holy heck, have a little faith we can make it through with some communication.

If it was vet content I'd understand, but the amount of rage in regular level dungeons is just sad.

@lagrue

While it's a side topic concerning your friend. I've always found it best for someone in a née role to get some practice with guild mates and friends.

They tend to be more patient and willing to explain things as well as let him/her take the time to size up a group to decide how to approach them.

In the end it's just plain a better experience vs running with some ransoms in a hurry.

zaria

idk wrote: »

lagrue wrote: »

I feel bad because on PS4 our dungeon runners are toxic beyond reason. Even at CP 570 something now, I've never done many Dungeons - I'm learning the mechanics.

But at the same time, my friend who I just introduced to the game, has played for 2 weeks and is now CP100, is just learning the ropes of his role as Tank.

We're only doing NORMAL dungeons, and people keep trashing him for not being the best tank in the game. Sending 'VTK' in the chat, telling him he's stupid.

I play DPS, had one healer the other night who didn't give me any heals (I know because I have incoming heal numbers on) - he was fighting the boss the whole time - and rather than admit he wasn't healing, he went on a huge rant about my friend who's currently learning how to tank blaming him. Because ya know - it's his fault I wasn't being healed by the healer from enemy DoTs on the ground - lke the tank has any true bearing of poison clouds everywhere....

There's too much hate in general, in the dungeons. People need to realize this is a game with 100s of hours of content, we aren't all dungeon runners - and when we do want to start learning, like holy heck, have a little faith we can make it through with some communication.

If it was vet content I'd understand, but the amount of rage in regular level dungeons is just sad.

@lagrue

While it's a side topic concerning your friend. I've always found it best for someone in a née role to get some practice with guild mates and friends.

They tend to be more patient and willing to explain things as well as let him/her take the time to size up a group to decide how to approach them.

In the end it's just plain a better experience vs running with some ransoms in a hurry.

This, however on pc its mostly as players don't give advice they simply leave or vote kick.

I have ran into two players like above in all my time playing eso, not counting saying dps sucks before leaving.
First was an backstabber, not knowing we was in guild group with voice chat, he asked for an vote kill on me as he died on the linked players in vFG2, how could he not know that mechanic? it its in normal too. He got vote kicked

The other was more in the more salty than the death sea category however he was very good, gave lots of good advises and suffered trough lots of our wipes to before leaving.

However then learning to heal I liked to get weak groups in normal dungeons, that made me have to work but with the fast spikes or sustained healing requirments you get in veteran.

Blackleopardex

Samadhi wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

...So I am quite amused with all the hate going around for fake tanks simply because under normal conditions I see no respect whatsoever for tanks...

Really?
Have only been tanking for a couple of months
but regularly receive compliments after finished HM pledge runs
and got asked for advice on how to build a tank after running Vet Randoms in the event

Your talking about different situations..

Ofc when things are difficult and a boss will easily kill a DD if pulled like some of the harder veteran dungeons or you are dealing with less exp DDs that are not that far ahead in the game. Then the DDs will most likely wait for the tank to take the aggro and be pleased when he/she can do his/her role until the boss/trash lies dead. However, this is not what OP is talking about at all. He/she is talking about people that have no patience to let the tank do their role on trash and bosses in all dungeons. This typical DD that runs ahead and kill half, or so, of the first trash-pull even before everyone is out of loading screens and continues to run ahead and pull and make a mess out of everything throughout the dungeon. And ofc, this does not mean that he/she dies, it's easy solo many of the veteran dungeons so this is not my point. However these people make it really annoying for the tank, I often leave the dungeon if I have idiots like that when I can't manage to kick them.

It does not stop there tho, because even for the other DD or the healer this can be very frustrating. If the other DD has less exp it's gonna be much more difficult for him to stay alive when the tank are unable to even catch up and do his job. Even for an exp DD it can be annoying that you don't get the chance to dps properly maybe testing some new setup in live action? I for one hate it when we get bad pulls and it breaks my DPS numbers. From a healers perspective it can also be endlessly annoying having people in different locations, damage everywhere, and just a mess to buff and heal and when people start to die because of this it will look bad on the healer in some situations.

So all in all we are talking about specific people that has no respect for their groups members and should never had q'ed for a random dungeon in the first place.

Many of the people that does this might argue with that it will take to long to wait for everyone and they wanna do it fast or whatever. Maybe it's an idea if the others in the group are very slow to ask them: 'Please guys, can we try to be a bit quick?' And who knows, maybe that would speed things up? And lets be honest a properly run dungeon with everyone there and doing their role will make a quicker dungeon most of the time(less arguments, less deaths and more dps).

On the other hand I wanna add something to the slow-motion dungeon runners. I mean it's ok to do the quest and stuff but when you go q for a dungeon, take a quick look that you have everything ready cp/food/pots/repairs/gear/skills. I know you can't prepare everything on beforehand but try to what you can and this will help the other side of this argument that for sure will continue into oblivion.