So I am seeing a lot of fake tank hate...

tplink3r1

Because the lack of tanks totally justifies me checking the tank role as a 17k health stamblade DPS.
No. If you have fake tanks exploiting the group finder, it's their problem, not the rest of the group for not being tanks. Your miserable post would be right if those people were complaining about the LACK of tanks, but this is not the case.

Caleb_Kadesh

cazlonb16_ESO wrote: »

Now picture a tank that's not a DK...And half of these bullet points fall flat already.

Exactly. My Tank is a nightblade. Queue the trolls...

Loc2262

zyk wrote: »

What is a fake tank?

Is it:

- the player with a 40k hp heavy armor permablock build who excels at pressing a taunt key and not dying

OR

- the player with a 16-20k hp build who can hold agro, heal himself and still contribute 15-30k dps? (or in the case of trash, 50-120k)

A player with 16-20k health can maybe hold aggro, but will not survive. Lots of boss attacks deal so much damage, they'll oneshot them, no matter how good they can "heal themselves". There's a reason why there's three roles with respective distribution of resources.

Of your two examples, I definitely prefer the 40k heavy armor permablock one, because they can at least fulfill the two most basic tanking requirements: Keep aggro, stand still with the boss, AND survive.

Mancombe_Nosehair

As a real tank, if a group member charges ahead and aggro's everything, I just sit back and watch them burn...

Mureel

josiahva wrote: »

This is more just an observation. I play tanks for the most part, I have 3 different tanks I mainly play. I have my pure tank I use for difficult content, I have my DPS/Tank hybrid I use for normal dungeons and non-DLC vet dungeons, and I have a Warden healer/Tank hybrid that I just mess around on from time to time. I enjoy playing the support role for whatever reason. So I am quite amused with all the hate going around for fake tanks simply because under normal conditions I see no respect whatsoever for tanks(Yes, I am talking to you, you people who think their DPS is so awesome they go aggroing a mob before I can get there to position them correctly and keep them together causing them to scatter all over the room and making me waste resources grouping them back up). But, when real tanks become more scarce due to events like this...its these same people who want to kick fake tanks and cry about tanks that don't perform the role. The point being that if you want more people to tank, you need to show some respect for the role and not treat them as if they are superfluous, otherwise incompetent tanks will proliferate.

Well I shower our tanks with adoration and gold! So wherever you are, apparently is not the best place!

At the same time though, I don't give a toss if a fank comes on a random *shrugs*

Runefang

luton0watford4 wrote: »

As a real tank, if a group member charges ahead and aggro's everything, I just sit back and watch them burn...

As a real DPS, if the tank charges ahead and aggro's everything, I just sit back and watch them burn...

MLGProPlayer

duendology wrote: »

Ehh from what I've seen tanks are absolutely essential. I don't feel "safe", if that makes sense, when no tank is around..just a bunch awesomely awesome dps toons obviously suffering from ADHD or.. diarrhea...and not paying attention to the rest of the group.

DPS isn't supposed to pay attention to the rest of the group. If they can survive while still dishing out the necessary damage, they are doing their job. This is how 4x DPS groups work. Everyone does their own thing and burns through the content.

PlagueSD

Spacemonkey wrote: »

blackheart haven (well pirate skelly dungeon, i think thats the one) on vet. 3rd boss has a random range one hit-ability that barely tickled me and our tank, but kept oneshotting the two dpses.

As a tank, you're on interrupt duty. That ability should be interrupted so it doesn't one-shot anyone.

Same thing with the zombie pit boss in ICP. He has a one-shot mechanic that channels for 10 seconds. If not interrupted. It'll one-shot anyone. You should really have another character in melee range with him in case the tank get's focused.

PlagueSD

luton0watford4 wrote: »

As a real tank, if a group member charges ahead and aggro's everything, I just sit back and watch them burn...

Yep. I do the same thing. Also, if there's a sorc using a frost staff and pulls agro, I let them tank it. It's pretty funny to watch. I'm not about to risk making the mob taunt-immune in case it decides to go after my healer.

Runefang wrote: »

luton0watford4 wrote: »

As a real tank, if a group member charges ahead and aggro's everything, I just sit back and watch them burn...

As a real DPS, if the tank charges ahead and aggro's everything, I just sit back and watch them burn...

lol, that's sarcasm, right?

raj72616a

tplink3r1 wrote: »

Because the lack of tanks totally justifies me checking the tank role as a 17k health stamblade DPS.
No. If you have fake tanks exploiting the group finder, it's their problem, not the rest of the group for not being tanks. Your miserable post would be right if those people were complaining about the LACK of tanks, but this is not the case.

most vet dungeons can be tanked comfortably with a 17k health tank.

FG2, CoA2, WS2, Direfrost, Selene, EH2, DC2, Blackheart, even on hard mode, have no attack that would one shot a 17k health medium armor tank.

firedrgn

I think these discussions need to be separated between normal and vet.
I get asked to que as an off healer so we can get moving. It was actually fun. Normal dungeons you can fake tank and fake heal . Vet is a different story.

SoLooney

lol, all i see are people hating fake tanks, and real tanks and real healers getting butt hurt of not getting a thank you. its a dang game.

dps pulling over 30k dps, i guess they deserve a thank you too? but how many times do we get it, hardly, but who cares..... its a game

if people are so butthurt, go play dungeons with your friends, saves me from countless headaches

SupremeRissole

Spacemonkey wrote: »

blackheart haven (well pirate skelly dungeon, i think thats the one) on vet. 3rd boss has a random range one hit-ability that barely tickled me and our tank, but kept oneshotting the two dpses.

so we jsut chose to stop reviving them after like the tenth time (somewhat to their request I must say, repair costs lol)


The boss literaly barely dmged us. But took forever to kill... (tank + healer). Id like to point out I barely needed to do any healing at all.

But yeah. DPS are so l33t. Because of DPS we have bosses with crazy health pools, half the dungeons with harder mechanics are dps races. -.- death to dpses.

A simple bash/crushing shock from the tank or ANYONE would have kept them alive.
And allowed them to do the damage you are complaining about lacking.

Fake DPS is a larger issue IMO. A "real" dps who pulls 10k and queues for vet bloodroot......kick.

Random (vet) dungeons with random people is literally cancer in this game, it's rarely a good time so I tend to group with people I know or avoid it altogether. One of the worst issues is people have never some dungeons e.g HotR and they get them in a random vet and are a blatant hinderance to the group. You should have to have completed it on vet specific before it can pop up in random queue.

For normal dungeons there is no need for roles, on my tank and healer I refuse to do normal content as there's no need for it.

As much as I dont care for fake tanks in normal dungeons, I do think that having someone like myself solo the dungeon whilst the new players just run behind me doesnt teach new players anything, so then they eventually jump into vet with no clue. However a real cp690 dps queued as a dps who didnt "cheat" (btw lol) still causes this same issue.

FrancisCrawford

I suspect that the cultures on different servers are very different.

I play on PC/NA. Little gets said in Group Finder PUG groups. But what does get said is almost always pleasant and polite.

Examples:

• Even in otherwise quiet groups, it is common to TYFG at the end.
• Most groups try to be good about waiting for somebody who needs the quest.
• My Level 46 Warden wound up in CoA 2 on Random Normal today. I warned the group I'd never been in there before. They rushed ahead a bit imprudently, but nothing unpleasant was said, even when I fell into lava, couldn't jump out, and eventually rezzed at the start and made my way back to the group, nor when I died on my first try with the Maw and caused a wipe. The TYFGs at the end were particularly complimentary (sincerely or otherwise).
• My first time in Vet Spindleclutch 1 I died horribly and repeatedly on the final boss, the first time causing a full wipe. The group nonetheless asked me to heal the other non-DLC pledge for them.
• I randomed a group that featured a level 22 "tank" who wielded a greatsword, transformed into a werewolf, and LITERALLY was named a variant of "Leroy Jenkiiiiiiins". Nobody got angry.
• Another of my random groups wound up with 4 people in RoM, none of whom had finished it before, two of whom were a bit slow to admit that fact. We made our way through and succeeded without recriminations.
• I've only been involved in one group that had votes to kick, among many dozens of Group Finder PUGs.

raj72616a

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

I suspect that the cultures on different servers are very different.

I play on PC/NA. Little gets said in Group Finder PUG groups. But what does get said is almost always pleasant and polite.

Examples:

• Even in otherwise quiet groups, it is common to TYFG at the end.
• Most groups try to be good about waiting for somebody who needs the quest.
• My Level 46 Warden wound up in CoA 2 on Random Normal today. I warned the group I'd never been in there before. They rushed ahead a bit imprudently, but nothing unpleasant was said, even when I fell into lava, couldn't jump out, and eventually rezzed at the start and made my way back to the group, nor when I died on my first try with the Maw and caused a wipe. The TYFGs at the end were particularly complimentary (sincerely or otherwise).
• My first time in Vet Spindleclutch 1 I died horribly and repeatedly on the final boss, the first time causing a full wipe. The group nonetheless asked me to heal the other pledge or them.
• I randomed a group that featured a level 22 "tank" who wielded a greatsword, transformed into a werewolf, and LITERALLY was named a variant of "Leroy Jenkiiiiiiins". Nobody got angry.
• Another of my random groups wound up with 4 people in RoM, none of whom had finished it before, two of whom were a bit slow to admit that fact. We made our way through and succeeded without recriminations.
• I've only been involved in one group that had votes to kick, among many dozens of Group Finder PUGs.

it's just different culture between forums and the actual game.

Vaoh

bhagwad wrote: »

Alpheu5 wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

...So I am quite amused with all the hate going around for fake tanks simply because under normal conditions I see no respect whatsoever for tanks...

Really?
Have only been tanking for a couple of months
but regularly receive compliments after finished HM pledge runs
and got asked for advice on how to build a tank after running Vet Randoms in the event

I'd like to know what utopic population you play with. Just like healing, it's a thankless task for the most part that some people underestimate the importance of.

Spacemonkey wrote: »

blackheart haven (well pirate skelly dungeon, i think thats the one) on vet. 3rd boss has a random range one hit-ability that barely tickled me and our tank, but kept oneshotting the two dpses.

so we jsut chose to stop reviving them after like the tenth time (somewhat to their request I must say, repair costs lol)


The boss literaly barely dmged us. But took forever to kill... (tank + healer). Id like to point out I barely needed to do any healing at all.

But yeah. DPS are so l33t. Because of DPS we have bosses with crazy health pools, half the dungeons with harder mechanics are dps races. -.- death to dpses.

In this case, it is the tank's fault that the DPS died, not the DPS. You're supposed to bash that attack when he starts to charge it up, otherwise, yes, it's entirely likely to kill you in 1 shot.

It's not thankless at all. Just consider everything a full fledged tank does:

Taunts important targets
Holds them STILL
Faces them away from group
Chains in adds, often trivializing boss fights
Immobilizes adds in a group for easy DPS
Continuous warhorns every minute
Solid debuffs with weakening and crushing enchants
Regular shields for the whole group every few seconds!
Extra health for the group if running ebon

There are some fights, where a tank carries the entire show on their shoulders like the titan in CoA II where the tank grabs the two flame atronachs and single handedly drags them away from the group so they can DPS the boss in peace.

Or on the planer inhibitor fight, when the tank can just hold the boss STILL right up to the blue phase. Thank you!

Or Bloodroot Forge, whether it's standing on the volcanoes, or keeping aggro of all three final bosses. Thank you!

Or Falkreath hold with the minotaurs. And with the 3rd skeleton boss. I'd like to see 4 DPS'ers do that!

I mean seriously, any decent group will appreciate you. Most of these activities are so obvious, that everyone will be thanking their stars if they get a competent tank.

Finding a tank that can do even half of these things is difficult. Finding a tank who can do all or almost all of these things only happens when the stars align while you use Group Finder.

Unfortunately, the impression that ZOS puts on players of what a “tank” is supposed to do is only half of what is expected. You are meant to taunt adds AND support your group, not just taunt the adds. This means wearing group support sets, keeping enemies debuffed, following certain mechanics, throwing out buffs/heals to your allies, and keeping enemies taunted/standing still and facing away from the DPS. Few tanks understand that or care to learn. Without any sort of in-game Undaunted tutorial, the Group Finder experience will remain overall bad

kringled_1

Just as a counterpoint to one part of that: certain group support on a tank is frequently pointless in the groupfinder. Ebon won't help the rushy dps who die repeatedly on trash packs. Crusher enchant and warhorn don't do much when group dps is 12k and the tank is 25% of it. I've taken a short break from dungeon pug tanking to do PvP but I don't expect the situation to have changed when I get back to it.