The Current Destro Pain Train Meta Needs To Die

coplannb16_ESO

I use the other morph

Joy_Division

Glory wrote: »

ITT: People who think that because groups run a skill due to the meta, that means that those groups approve of the meta.

Agrippa is just pointing out what has been what many perceive as a stale meta: destro ultimate spam + Vicious Death to kill people, otherwise turtle up and wait for more destro ultimate spam.

For emphasis.

Give me a break with the "this faction abuses destro bomb". Can't even try to have a productive conversation without that crap always coming up.

@Publius_Scipio - My first MMO too. I think balance is fluid, things are always changing. Things are unanticipated. Soemthing is always going to be a bit too strong and bit too weak.

But that's fine. Provided nothing to too far ascew.

What's not fine is stale meta. What's not fine are three things - Earth Gore, Destro ult, and Negate - competently dominating and group encounters/fights such that tactics are reduced to what Kilandos said: destro bomb+Negate or kite/turtle until destro bomb+negate are up. I can live with some imbalances provided what I'm playing is actually interesting and enjoyable.

I have hard time believing the higher ups in this company log into Vivec on a regular basis. There is no way. It's not so much that they are unaware of bugs or say highly puzzling things like they haven't encountered the audio bug (although that's really hard to swallow). It that there no way I can believe the big cheeses, the head honchos, the top dogs, etc., plays what we do and is fine with it such that so little is done to change it.

Nightfall12

What find bad about these trains is due to the numbers I only see the first few… I'm like ok there are 3 of them and there are 3 of us this will be balanced…then Suddenly I'm dead and i see the rest appear out of thin air.

I think the death recap screen has a magical property that reduces your lag enough to see all the guys the killed you, that you couldn't see before, then when you respawn you receive the Lag buff again.

Publius_Scipio

Joy_Division wrote: »

Glory wrote: »

ITT: People who think that because groups run a skill due to the meta, that means that those groups approve of the meta.

Agrippa is just pointing out what has been what many perceive as a stale meta: destro ultimate spam + Vicious Death to kill people, otherwise turtle up and wait for more destro ultimate spam.

For emphasis.

Give me a break with the "this faction abuses destro bomb". Can't even try to have a productive conversation without that crap always coming up.

@Publius_Scipio - My first MMO too. I think balance is fluid, things are always changing. Things are unanticipated. Soemthing is always going to be a bit too strong and bit too weak.

But that's fine. Provided nothing to too far ascew.

What's not fine is stale meta. What's not fine are three things - Earth Gore, Destro ult, and Negate - competently dominating and group encounters/fights such that tactics are reduced to what Kilandos said: destro bomb+Negate or kite/turtle until destro bomb+negate are up. I can live with some imbalances provided what I'm playing is actually interesting and enjoyable.

I have hard time believing the higher ups in this company log into Vivec on a regular basis. There is no way. It's not so much that they are unaware of bugs or say highly puzzling things like they haven't encountered the audio bug (although that's really hard to swallow). It that there no way I can believe the big cheeses, the head honchos, the top dogs, etc., plays what we do and is fine with it such that so little is done to change it.

The Zenimax executives are probably and have never logged in. I can believe Matt Firor (in his Akatosh form) has walked upon Tamriel at one time or another. I was told Rich Lambert plays quite often. Speak of ZOS, I have not have read one post, seen anything from Brian Wheeler in what seems like ages. I hope all is well with him.

Derra

To get rid of those you need a different mechanic to kill zergs back - or a new one that ppl complain about.

Either proxybombing + vd. Dynamic ult. 12m loltornado - you can´t just remove/nerf everything that actually counters (as in allows you to fight at all with 20 ppl) zerging (talking about 40 or 50+++ players) and expect the general pop of the game to not do it.

If you want to get rid of proxy storm strains you have to get rid of numbers >>> everything at the same time.

Raudgrani

I'd rather endure 25 emperor Eye of Flame, than the current state of Cyrodiil. I mean, I can dodge, run away, keep myself at range or whatever - but what can I do about being caught in a never ending load screen after being killed, or even end up in one randomly? Focus on what's important: Get the game at least barely playable again, we need to demand this. We are the consumers, and we are in charge really.

Anazasi

Vilestride wrote: »

ishilb14_ESO wrote: »

AD is just not very good at faction stacking. In DC, we have faction stacking down to a science, which is why we own Chalman most of the time. Our faction stack is almost impossible for Dracarys 30man zerg to handle.

Insightful.

On Topic, Destro Meta is the most balanced meta in this games history and the game will continue to grow at a healthy rate if nothing is changed. Keep it up everyone!

Did he really say that? Vile I don't think I've ever seen you all with more than 20 in group. But it's nice to see DC taking pride in something that they can do well.

Anazasi

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Actually I always thought it'd be cool if eye of the storm was like a ring or a donut that did damage around the caster but not in the center of the AoE where the caster is located. Probs wouldn't change anything but it would be more creative and cool.

I would vote for Eye of the Donut as long as it's Dunkin of course.

Ghostbane

tl;dr : Make earthgore cancel out destros

Autumnhart

Joy_Division wrote: »

I have hard time believing the higher ups in this company log into Vivec on a regular basis. There is no way. It's not so much that they are unaware of bugs or say highly puzzling things like they haven't encountered the audio bug (although that's really hard to swallow). It that there no way I can believe the big cheeses, the head honchos, the top dogs, etc., plays what we do and is fine with it such that so little is done to change it.

If they PVP it's in Battlegrounds. Fifteen minutes of play in Vivec would be enough to enlighten them. They're not interested.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

It's interesting to hear that apparently destro's are so powerful yet I very rarely die to them in cyro. Maybe I'm not online when some 10-14m nb group is running but it seems odd.
I wonder what people think would happen if destro was removed.

Rin_Senya

"Kilandros wrote: »

Pretty much this. No meta is perfect, but previous metas were more interesting than this one. Summer 2016 was IMO a solid meta - you had a bunch of classes and ults in play, movement and finding chokes was basically the number 1 most important thing a group could do. I loved leading groups back then. Now it's just call out destros / wait for earthgore proc / call more destros and negates.

If leading now would be so easy ("just call out destros / wait for earthgore proc / call more destros and negates") we would see a lot of good competitive groups running around in Cyrodiil. In fact there is like 2-3 strong guild/groups left and the rest are just zerg surfing, imo. Lack of good leadership is one of the biggest problems in PVP atm.

Kilandros

Rin_Senya wrote: »

"Kilandros wrote: »

Pretty much this. No meta is perfect, but previous metas were more interesting than this one. Summer 2016 was IMO a solid meta - you had a bunch of classes and ults in play, movement and finding chokes was basically the number 1 most important thing a group could do. I loved leading groups back then. Now it's just call out destros / wait for earthgore proc / call more destros and negates.

If leading now would be so easy ("just call out destros / wait for earthgore proc / call more destros and negates") we would see a lot of good competitive groups running around in Cyrodiil. In fact there is like 1-2 strong guild/groups left and the rest are just zerg surfing, imo. Lack of good leadership is one of the biggest problems in PVP atm.

Why are you making generalized assumptions about a statement regarding my leading preferences? I said I didn't like to lead anymore because I think the meta is stale. Not that it's "so easy" (where did you get that from? If you're going to quote me, then quote me.)

In any case, I do think there a correlation between this meta and the lack of good organized groups left playing. It's my opinion that a lot of good players/guilds lost interest because the TTK became so high. You're free to disagree of course. I know your guild likes this meta and that's fine. But that doesn't mean that everyone else likes it.

Agrippa_Invisus

Rin_Senya wrote: »

"Kilandros wrote: »

Pretty much this. No meta is perfect, but previous metas were more interesting than this one. Summer 2016 was IMO a solid meta - you had a bunch of classes and ults in play, movement and finding chokes was basically the number 1 most important thing a group could do. I loved leading groups back then. Now it's just call out destros / wait for earthgore proc / call more destros and negates.

If leading now would be so easy ("just call out destros / wait for earthgore proc / call more destros and negates") we would see a lot of good competitive groups running around in Cyrodiil. In fact there is like 2-3 strong guild/groups left and the rest are just zerg surfing, imo. Lack of good leadership is one of the biggest problems in PVP atm.

This is an issue that's compounded by the continually shrinking pvp player base.

We're not going to get those additional good, healthy guilds to build themselves within this meta as it continues to drive players away either through the barrier to entry or frustration with dealing with it.

Almost all the current 'top guilds' are those that have heavily cannibalized the members of guilds that have retired, vanished, broken up, etc.

Sharee

Just give players damaged by destro ult one second of immunity to destro ult.

Since it ticks once per second, a single EOTS won't be affected (the immunity will be gone before it ticks again), but stacking multiple EOTS won't do any more damage to one particular player than one EOTS does.

Kilandros

Sharee wrote: »

Just give players damaged by destro ult one second of immunity to destro ult.

Since it ticks once per second, a single EOTS won't be affected (the immunity will be gone before it ticks again), but stacking multiple EOTS won't do any more damage to one particular player than one EOTS does.

Just make it blockable, really.

Joy_Division

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

It's interesting to hear that apparently destro's are so powerful yet I very rarely die to them in cyro. Maybe I'm not online when some 10-14m nb group is running but it seems odd.
I wonder what people think would happen if destro was removed.

I rarely die to them too. Not really the issue. Rather it doesn't take too much thought or skill to use it effectively, it totally outshines other ultimates that cost the same like Banner and Nova, and people are tired of seeing ball-groups run around with super strong mobile PbAoEs (and Earth Gores).

I do agree that simply removing them would make it very difficult to overcome the tanking, healing, AoE caps, and overall mitigation that is possible by organized groups of players. ZoS has drove themselves into quite a large cul-de-sac and it's unfortunately going to take a lot of talent and resources to make Cyrodiil a place where variety and comelling game-play can thrive.

Jawasa

Dont worry meta is allready changing. If you play on PC EU you know Whats up.

Anazasi

You want to know the real problem with group play. Here it is. You have a few groups that plan raids and build comp for support and DPS and then you have groups that log in que up then sit down and pray that tonight will be a good night and a good comp will just magically appear. The groups that plan raids with comp in mind are the groups that are eating up the raids that have not prayed enough for the magical blessing.

If this issue was focused on a little more and players took more time to develop group builds and play support roles more, comp might be a little easier to reach. Who ever started the rumor that you can toss on a few sets grab a resto staff and poof you're a healer was playing a silly joke on you. The reality is, for AD at least, there are probably 3 groups that run comp or try to run it based on the whimsical nature of humans and those groups are Fantasia, TKG, and AD. The worst part however, DK is always teaching comp and developing support players that eventually end up with others. How's those earth gore helms working? Don't get me wrong I don't mind teaching players, in fact I probably have touch more players amongst the AD faction (in a good way ha ha) than most. It just needs to get better somehow and some way and nerfing just isn't the answer. If the meta is changing, that's great. Share the theory on it so we can all get together and work on it. But until than let's all try a little harder to make OUR community the best it can be.

Karm1cOne

Remove aoe caps, give siege more damage against players, and tweak earthgore. These 3 changes would help tremendously to disencentivise stacking raids.

Publius_Scipio

Karm1cOne wrote: »

Remove aoe caps, give siege more damage against players, and tweak earthgore. These 3 changes would help tremendously to disencentivise stacking raids.

Raids weren't disincentivized in 2014, 2015, 2016, and for 11 months of 2017. While your suggestions are valid, once again I must say that "destroying" zergs in Cyrodiil is a myth. Reasons such as the fact that the whole concept of Cyrodiil was built upon large groups participating in royal rumbles for keeps. Guilds/groups will always find some gear set and skill combination to do exactly what they have always done. And yeah, guilds and zergs have used different sets and skills throughout the different ESO updates. But make no mistake about it, the skills and gear might be different but the zergs are doing exactly what they have always done. And that's to mow down anything in their path as fast as they can.

Lexxypwns

I just wanna say that being critical of @Agrippa_Invisus for running meta strategies then calling for them to be nerfed are wild crazy.

Let's say he didn't want to run eye of flame in his group, they'd go out in cyrodiil, win a few but likely never get a win against an organized guild. Then his guild members get discouraged and he loses members. Now, as a guild leader, its his responsible to make sure he keeps his group together and having fun. It's pretty unlikely his guild is going to enjoy being non-competitive and even more unlikely they'll keep playing when they can't compete.

Publius_Scipio

Lexxypwns wrote: »

I just wanna say that being critical of @Agrippa_Invisus for running meta strategies then calling for them to be nerfed are wild crazy.

Let's say he didn't want to run eye of flame in his group, they'd go out in cyrodiil, win a few but likely never get a win against an organized guild. Then his guild members get discouraged and he loses members. Now, as a guild leader, its his responsible to make sure he keeps his group together and having fun. It's pretty unlikely his guild is going to enjoy being non-competitive and even more unlikely they'll keep playing when they can't compete.

Lexxypwns wrote: »

I just wanna say that being critical of @Agrippa_Invisus for running meta strategies then calling for them to be nerfed are wild crazy.

Let's say he didn't want to run eye of flame in his group, they'd go out in cyrodiil, win a few but likely never get a win against an organized guild. Then his guild members get discouraged and he loses members. Now, as a guild leader, its his responsible to make sure he keeps his group together and having fun. It's pretty unlikely his guild is going to enjoy being non-competitive and even more unlikely they'll keep playing when they can't compete.

So basically you said A Grape Invisible is a hypocrite. At least that the way I read it.

Rin_Senya

Kilandros wrote: »

Why are you making generalized assumptions about a statement regarding my leading preferences? I said I didn't like to lead anymore because I think the meta is stale. Not that it's "so easy" (where did you get that from? If you're going to quote me, then quote me.)

In any case, I do think there a correlation between this meta and the lack of good organized groups left playing. It's my opinion that a lot of good players/guilds lost interest because the TTK became so high. You're free to disagree of course. I know your guild likes this meta and that's fine. But that doesn't mean that everyone else likes it.

I'm not making generalisations. You used the word "just" indicating a simplistic approach. Leading is a lot more complex then this when fighting in outnumbered situations especially against other guilds and boiling it down to "just calling destro's" is an oversimplification.

Additionally the main problem is that due to lack of any cooldown or resource management ttk is entirely burst dependent meaning that real ttk is very short but just feels longer. For example you fight and fight someone but when you come to kill them you do it with 1 well executed burst combo realistically outside of this combo that person is in no danger from your normal damage. Raids function on the same principle just on a larger scale.

Kilandros wrote: »

"I know your guild likes this meta".

I didnt say that I liked this meta and I don't think you will find many of us saying that we do so isn't it a generalisation to say this. Conversely not everyone likes 1vX, does that mean that 1vXers are wrong for liking it? We have to move away from the "blame the meta" cycle that people seem to be in. The real problem in my opinion is lack of involvement in the player base. For example people instead of saying "wow I want to be that good" when looking at strong guilds or solo players instead they go "oh they are cheating / their playstyle is bad for the game / it's easy to play like that it's so bad to play that way" (not saying that's what you are doing here).

Lexxypwns

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

I just wanna say that being critical of @Agrippa_Invisus for running meta strategies then calling for them to be nerfed are wild crazy.

Let's say he didn't want to run eye of flame in his group, they'd go out in cyrodiil, win a few but likely never get a win against an organized guild. Then his guild members get discouraged and he loses members. Now, as a guild leader, its his responsible to make sure he keeps his group together and having fun. It's pretty unlikely his guild is going to enjoy being non-competitive and even more unlikely they'll keep playing when they can't compete.

Lexxypwns wrote: »

I just wanna say that being critical of @Agrippa_Invisus for running meta strategies then calling for them to be nerfed are wild crazy.

Let's say he didn't want to run eye of flame in his group, they'd go out in cyrodiil, win a few but likely never get a win against an organized guild. Then his guild members get discouraged and he loses members. Now, as a guild leader, its his responsible to make sure he keeps his group together and having fun. It's pretty unlikely his guild is going to enjoy being non-competitive and even more unlikely they'll keep playing when they can't compete.

So basically you said A Grape Invisible is a hypocrite. At least that the way I read it.

Nah, it's perfectly acceptable to play the meta. It is also perfectly acceptable to ask that the stale meta be changed.

You're constructing a straw man where playing the meta means you also enjoy the meta. That's not the case.

Playing the meta means you enjoy being competitive in whichever environment you play. Being a guild leader means you're responsible for making sure your members are working together to reach your guilds goals. When that guild is a large scale end-game PVP guild that means that you run destros. Now, just because he's being a good guild leader by putting his guild in a position to reach their goals DOES NOT mean that he's happy about the means to reach that end. In fact, I think, it shows a desire to improve the competitive environment to come in here and say this is the meta, my group runs it, its trash, we know it, you know it, let's push for a change in it.

Agrippa_Invisus

Lexxypwns wrote: »

I just wanna say that being critical of @Agrippa_Invisus for running meta strategies then calling for them to be nerfed are wild crazy.

Let's say he didn't want to run eye of flame in his group, they'd go out in cyrodiil, win a few but likely never get a win against an organized guild. Then his guild members get discouraged and he loses members. Now, as a guild leader, its his responsible to make sure he keeps his group together and having fun. It's pretty unlikely his guild is going to enjoy being non-competitive and even more unlikely they'll keep playing when they can't compete.

I'm intentionally not responding to those posts that seem more salty than constructive.

If those post authors want to rewrite their commentary to be more pertinent to the actual discussion, then I'll respond to them directly.

Posting "from the inside" as it were, also immediately disabuses the 'git gud' argument. I know what the meta is and how it works, and it's not unfamiliarity with it that makes me want to see things change.

The meta is stale. It's been the same for too long and each recent opportunity that ZOS has had to change things up, they have failed at. Instead they added Earthgore (and even with the recent damage nerf), which made Destro ulti even more important as Novas and Negates and other ultis are devoured by a mindless set piece proc (how's that for commensurate costs? A resource free set proc devours 200+ ulti ground effects -- yeah, that seems even).

@Kilandros is right when he says that it wouldn't take much to change things up at least a little bit.

Back when Hijinx existed, I used to be able to tell folks that the requirements for group were a basic framework of skills that filled a particular niche. Things like 'spammable aoe, aoe cc, and strong aoe ulti'. I was able to let people choose how to build their character to meet those requirements. Tatsu would spam Steel Tornado even before the Stam buffs, and we had banners and novas and dawnbreakers all mixed as the type of ultis we'd drop.

That build diversity is not viable in this meta, and that's a shame. For a game that advertises 'play as you want', the pvp has very much become 'play this way or die'.

Minno

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

I just wanna say that being critical of @Agrippa_Invisus for running meta strategies then calling for them to be nerfed are wild crazy.

Let's say he didn't want to run eye of flame in his group, they'd go out in cyrodiil, win a few but likely never get a win against an organized guild. Then his guild members get discouraged and he loses members. Now, as a guild leader, its his responsible to make sure he keeps his group together and having fun. It's pretty unlikely his guild is going to enjoy being non-competitive and even more unlikely they'll keep playing when they can't compete.

I'm intentionally not responding to those posts that seem more salty than constructive.

If those post authors want to rewrite their commentary to be more pertinent to the actual discussion, then I'll respond to them directly.

Posting "from the inside" as it were, also immediately disabuses the 'git gud' argument. I know what the meta is and how it works, and it's not unfamiliarity with it that makes me want to see things change.

The meta is stale. It's been the same for too long and each recent opportunity that ZOS has had to change things up, they have failed at. Instead they added Earthgore (and even with the recent damage nerf), which made Destro ulti even more important as Novas and Negates and other ultis are devoured by a mindless set piece proc (how's that for commensurate costs? A resource free set proc devours 200+ ulti ground effects -- yeah, that seems even).

@Kilandros is right when he says that it wouldn't take much to change things up at least a little bit.

Back when Hijinx existed, I used to be able to tell folks that the requirements for group were a basic framework of skills that filled a particular niche. Things like 'spammable aoe, aoe cc, and strong aoe ulti'. I was able to let people choose how to build their character to meet those requirements. Tatsu would spam Steel Tornado even before the Stam buffs, and we had banners and novas and dawnbreakers all mixed as the type of ultis we'd drop.

That build diversity is not viable in this meta, and that's a shame. For a game that advertises 'play as you want', the pvp has very much become 'play this way or die'.

I can agree on that. There's allot of problems in cyro that can be solved if all classes could move in a unique and diverse way. But currently only 2 classes can achieve this with snares limiting mobilty even further.

It's one thing to have a strong PBAOE, it's entirely another to have one that can always hit its target by reducing the mobilty of your enemy without much effort.

Kilandros

Rin_Senya wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Why are you making generalized assumptions about a statement regarding my leading preferences? I said I didn't like to lead anymore because I think the meta is stale. Not that it's "so easy" (where did you get that from? If you're going to quote me, then quote me.)

In any case, I do think there a correlation between this meta and the lack of good organized groups left playing. It's my opinion that a lot of good players/guilds lost interest because the TTK became so high. You're free to disagree of course. I know your guild likes this meta and that's fine. But that doesn't mean that everyone else likes it.

I'm not making generalisations. You used the word "just" indicating a simplistic approach. Leading is a lot more complex then this when fighting in outnumbered situations especially against other guilds and boiling it down to "just calling destro's" is an oversimplification.

Additionally the main problem is that due to lack of any cooldown or resource management ttk is entirely burst dependent meaning that real ttk is very short but just feels longer. For example you fight and fight someone but when you come to kill them you do it with 1 well executed burst combo realistically outside of this combo that person is in no danger from your normal damage. Raids function on the same principle just on a larger scale.

Kilandros wrote: »

"I know your guild likes this meta".

I didnt say that I liked this meta and I don't think you will find many of us saying that we do so isn't it a generalisation to say this. Conversely not everyone likes 1vX, does that mean that 1vXers are wrong for liking it? We have to move away from the "blame the meta" cycle that people seem to be in. The real problem in my opinion is lack of involvement in the player base. For example people instead of saying "wow I want to be that good" when looking at strong guilds or solo players instead they go "oh they are cheating / their playstyle is bad for the game / it's easy to play like that it's so bad to play that way" (not saying that's what you are doing here).

I used the word "just" in relation to my statement that this meta is stale. Because this meta does "just" revolve around 2-3 Ultimates. "Simple" and "oversimplification" are your words, not mine. As a raid lead, I dont think there's anything "simple" about leading in any meta. Why you're so determined to put words I didn't say into my mouth is kind of mystifying. Maybe you're overreading? I don't know.

I'm really not interested in getting into a wall-of-text war with you or anybody else on this forum. I'll end by repeating that I believe this meta is stale because it consists of 2-3 Ultimates. Go ahead and assume/presume/interpret whatever you want from that statement, I guess.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Kilandros wrote: »

Rin_Senya wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Why are you making generalized assumptions about a statement regarding my leading preferences? I said I didn't like to lead anymore because I think the meta is stale. Not that it's "so easy" (where did you get that from? If you're going to quote me, then quote me.)

In any case, I do think there a correlation between this meta and the lack of good organized groups left playing. It's my opinion that a lot of good players/guilds lost interest because the TTK became so high. You're free to disagree of course. I know your guild likes this meta and that's fine. But that doesn't mean that everyone else likes it.

I'm not making generalisations. You used the word "just" indicating a simplistic approach. Leading is a lot more complex then this when fighting in outnumbered situations especially against other guilds and boiling it down to "just calling destro's" is an oversimplification.

Additionally the main problem is that due to lack of any cooldown or resource management ttk is entirely burst dependent meaning that real ttk is very short but just feels longer. For example you fight and fight someone but when you come to kill them you do it with 1 well executed burst combo realistically outside of this combo that person is in no danger from your normal damage. Raids function on the same principle just on a larger scale.

Kilandros wrote: »

"I know your guild likes this meta".

I didnt say that I liked this meta and I don't think you will find many of us saying that we do so isn't it a generalisation to say this. Conversely not everyone likes 1vX, does that mean that 1vXers are wrong for liking it? We have to move away from the "blame the meta" cycle that people seem to be in. The real problem in my opinion is lack of involvement in the player base. For example people instead of saying "wow I want to be that good" when looking at strong guilds or solo players instead they go "oh they are cheating / their playstyle is bad for the game / it's easy to play like that it's so bad to play that way" (not saying that's what you are doing here).

I used the word "just" in relation to my statement that this meta is stale. Because this meta does "just" revolve around 2-3 Ultimates. "Simple" and "oversimplification" are your words, not mine. As a raid lead, I dont think there's anything "simple" about leading in any meta. Why you're so determined to put words I didn't say into my mouth is kind of mystifying. Maybe you're overreading? I don't know.

I'm really not interested in getting into a wall-of-text war with you or anybody else on this forum. I'll end by repeating that I believe this meta is stale because it consists of 2-3 Ultimates. Go ahead and assume/presume/interpret whatever you want from that statement, I guess.

Not really sure why you are reacting in a seemingly hostile way to someone clarifying what they read from your post when asked or why a wall of text war would be required for a simple discussion.

I also disagree with your definition of what a lead should do to organise a successful raid

Kilandros wrote: »

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Whats the point of changing anything anyways? Like Ghost Waffles the elf said, guilds will simply jump on the next bandwagon of "most bang for the buck". No one will stop the masses from gravitating towards the strongest and most effective thing to use. That goes for solo also. It's the nature of it all.

There is a huge qualitative difference between the destro meta and the previous metas because eye of the potato dmg moves with the group. The 'group bomb' dmg is mobile rather than centered on stationary, negatable ground target aoe. Before eye of the potato, if you wanted non negatable dmg your options were dawnbreakers (which is directional & smaller area) or bats (which is lower dmg).

One thing I'd like to add to grippa's point is earthgore's auto negate effect needs to go. As if ground placed ults weren't already gimped enough in the destotato meta...

I loved leading groups back then. Now it's just call out destros / wait for earthgore proc / call more destros and negates.

I see leading as far far more than this and its actually incredibly difficult to do in the current meta due to the speed in which a misplay is punished now.

In fact calling destros/negates is one of the last things to do when leading in my experience. I'm sorry you don't like leading now but I think its a little unfair to blame a meta for falling out of love for some playstyle e.g. leading more than any other factor, such as player burnout, group performance, game performance and population etc..

Anazasi

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

I just wanna say that being critical of @Agrippa_Invisus for running meta strategies then calling for them to be nerfed are wild crazy.

Let's say he didn't want to run eye of flame in his group, they'd go out in cyrodiil, win a few but likely never get a win against an organized guild. Then his guild members get discouraged and he loses members. Now, as a guild leader, its his responsible to make sure he keeps his group together and having fun. It's pretty unlikely his guild is going to enjoy being non-competitive and even more unlikely they'll keep playing when they can't compete.

I'm intentionally not responding to those posts that seem more salty than constructive.

If those post authors want to rewrite their commentary to be more pertinent to the actual discussion, then I'll respond to them directly.

Posting "from the inside" as it were, also immediately disabuses the 'git gud' argument. I know what the meta is and how it works, and it's not unfamiliarity with it that makes me want to see things change.

The meta is stale. It's been the same for too long and each recent opportunity that ZOS has had to change things up, they have failed at. Instead they added Earthgore (and even with the recent damage nerf), which made Destro ulti even more important as Novas and Negates and other ultis are devoured by a mindless set piece proc (how's that for commensurate costs? A resource free set proc devours 200+ ulti ground effects -- yeah, that seems even).

@Kilandros is right when he says that it wouldn't take much to change things up at least a little bit.

Back when Hijinx existed, I used to be able to tell folks that the requirements for group were a basic framework of skills that filled a particular niche. Things like 'spammable aoe, aoe cc, and strong aoe ulti'. I was able to let people choose how to build their character to meet those requirements. Tatsu would spam Steel Tornado even before the Stam buffs, and we had banners and novas and dawnbreakers all mixed as the type of ultis we'd drop.

That build diversity is not viable in this meta, and that's a shame. For a game that advertises 'play as you want', the pvp has very much become 'play this way or die'.

If you would have posted this first and reworked the title, it would have come across as strong analytical and critical thinking on why change is needed. Instead you approached the meta with gloves on and tickled at it. Be assertive like this and you will have a lot more support.

Nicely done and totally agreeable with.