The Current Destro Pain Train Meta Needs To Die

usmcjdking

Destruction Staff ultimate is not the problem. Why do all these posts appear every 3-4 days? Destruction Staff ultimate can be replaced by 4-5 other skills and have the exact same effect with the exact same posts by the exact same people.

Now lets actually get into ballgroup empowering skills -
Retreating Manuevers.

This skill is the single common theme in every patch of "XYZ ULTI BALL GROUP META".

Nihilos

usmcjdking wrote: »

Destruction Staff ultimate is not the problem. Why do all these posts appear every 3-4 days? Destruction Staff ultimate can be replaced by 4-5 other skills and have the exact same effect with the exact same posts by the exact same people.

Now lets actually get into ballgroup empowering skills -
Retreating Manuevers.

This skill is the single common theme in every patch of "XYZ ULTI BALL GROUP META".

While we’re all playing in the dirt, this man is playing 11 dimensional chess in his mind

NobleGuardian

LOL

NobleGuardian

this is too funny

usmcjdking

Nihilos wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Destruction Staff ultimate is not the problem. Why do all these posts appear every 3-4 days? Destruction Staff ultimate can be replaced by 4-5 other skills and have the exact same effect with the exact same posts by the exact same people.

Now lets actually get into ballgroup empowering skills -
Retreating Manuevers.

This skill is the single common theme in every patch of "XYZ ULTI BALL GROUP META".

While we’re all playing in the dirt, this man is playing 11 dimensional chess in his mind

Someone didn't get breastfed this morning.

Publius_Scipio

*Kilandros and his people go to war with Dracarys*
*Bedlam breaks out within the Pact*
*The COVENANT capitalizes on this in Vivec campaign*
*Dominion Knights and other elf tribes send 10,000 to stop the COVENANT at Chalman instead of taking alessia, sejanus, and BRK*

Nihilos

usmcjdking wrote: »

Nihilos wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Destruction Staff ultimate is not the problem. Why do all these posts appear every 3-4 days? Destruction Staff ultimate can be replaced by 4-5 other skills and have the exact same effect with the exact same posts by the exact same people.

Now lets actually get into ballgroup empowering skills -
Retreating Manuevers.

This skill is the single common theme in every patch of "XYZ ULTI BALL GROUP META".

While we’re all playing in the dirt, this man is playing 11 dimensional chess in his mind

Someone didn't get breastfed this morning.

Gimme a quick suckle cutie

WreckfulAbandon

ishilb14_ESO wrote: »

AD is just not very good at faction stacking. In DC, we have faction stacking down to a science, which is why we own Chalman most of the time. Our faction stack is almost impossible for Dracarys 30man zerg to handle.

Honesty is good.

I just wanted to quote this gem in case it gets edited later in a moment of clarity.

I'll tell you what AD is not good at: exploiting the animosity between DC and EP that usually gives AD a free hand to act. They almost always choose to attack EP though, and guess what, they almost always lose campaign as well.

What's the definition of insanity again?

NobleGuardian

waiiiittt atlas are you encouraging a rapids nerf before a desto utl nerf....

Kartalin

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

ishilb14_ESO wrote: »

AD is just not very good at faction stacking. In DC, we have faction stacking down to a science, which is why we own Chalman most of the time. Our faction stack is almost impossible for Dracarys 30man zerg to handle.

Honesty is good.

I just wanted to quote this gem in case it gets edited later in a moment of clarity.

I'll tell you what AD is not good at: exploiting the animosity between DC and EP that usually gives AD a free hand to act. They almost always choose to attack EP though, and guess what, they almost always lose campaign as well.

What's the definition of insanity again?

True, but if you wipe a DC group once or twice you somehow end up fighting 3 guilds that coincidentally all end up at your location at the same time. In most cases large EP groups don’t seem to have quite the same affinity for each other unless you really just drag out a fight.

usmcjdking

NobleGuardian wrote: »

waiiiittt atlas are you encouraging a rapids nerf before a desto utl nerf....

Yes. As long as destro does more damage than bats than it will continue to have it's weekly rage posts. When it's damage drops below that of bats, then bats will just be the preferred AOE ulti used in ball meta - which is what was the case prior to 1T.

As Agrippa touched on - the problem isn't Destro ult. The problem is the reliability of delivering the destro ult to it's intended target. Trying to isolate a Drac/Venatus/Fantasia bomber is nigh impossible because of Retreating Manuevers. The counterplay to high damage glass cannons has always been to interdict them before they can set up their damage. ZOS has decided to remove every method of being able to actually do this with the introduction of an absurdly powerful non-targetted AOE HOT in Earthgore and prevent positioning isolation through repeated application of Retrating Manuevers.

Inig0

hmm on the topic of d-ult in particular the main thing I see where its over performing other ults or just in general is how it goes through block. When you compare it to other ults like meteor or bats i think the counter play associated with each ult should be a large portion of the topic.

Back when people just used meteors it was just for that sick burst to line up with det which was a pretty small window and most of that damage could largely be mitted via block or barrier for example (or by seeing the attempt to open that window of opportunity and shutting it before [insert your favorite ball group to hate on] jumped through kappa.)

If Im not mistaken back when bats was prominent it wasn't nearly as devastating as d-ult considering d-ult goes through block and the destro passives associated with it that increases its utility and strength. So with bats you didnt see this insane damage potential that you do now.

So i think the best thing to do is go down the list and point out what the good counters to the previous metas were and see if they can be applied to d-ult. If theres not a reasonable counter then it would appear that thing might be over performing in which case a rework might be necessary.

All that being said I dont care enough to even consider that. i just want the topic to move to what the counter plays are or arent. Trying to change things like general ult cost of all ults, nerfing something out of relevance, or bringing up rapids in a d-ult discussion is the last thing we need.

We just need effective counter play.

Kas

tbh i'd rather get train'd by destros that ported around by meteors

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

usmcjdking wrote: »

NobleGuardian wrote: »

waiiiittt atlas are you encouraging a rapids nerf before a desto utl nerf....

Yes. As long as destro does more damage than bats than it will continue to have it's weekly rage posts. When it's damage drops below that of bats, then bats will just be the preferred AOE ulti used in ball meta - which is what was the case prior to 1T.

As Agrippa touched on - the problem isn't Destro ult. The problem is the reliability of delivering the destro ult to it's intended target. Trying to isolate a Drac/Venatus/Fantasia bomber is nigh impossible because of Retreating Manuevers. The counterplay to high damage glass cannons has always been to interdict them before they can set up their damage. ZOS has decided to remove every method of being able to actually do this with the introduction of an absurdly powerful non-targetted AOE HOT in Earthgore and prevent positioning isolation through repeated application of Retrating Manuevers.

Lets say you did this, the bombers targets would also be unable to escape without rapids and the bombers themselves would easily be able to ambush into them.

yet again a change designed to 'hurt groups' would make no difference to them.

Tbh groups should be made stronger in order to encourage more groups to form. Players who play better are still going to be better even if this is the case. Smallscalers will still be able to pick on all the people who run headfirst into a fight with no group and the guild struggling to perform and being frustrated would feel a lot better and greater participation in the game would be achieved.

usmcjdking

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

NobleGuardian wrote: »

waiiiittt atlas are you encouraging a rapids nerf before a desto utl nerf....

Yes. As long as destro does more damage than bats than it will continue to have it's weekly rage posts. When it's damage drops below that of bats, then bats will just be the preferred AOE ulti used in ball meta - which is what was the case prior to 1T.

As Agrippa touched on - the problem isn't Destro ult. The problem is the reliability of delivering the destro ult to it's intended target. Trying to isolate a Drac/Venatus/Fantasia bomber is nigh impossible because of Retreating Manuevers. The counterplay to high damage glass cannons has always been to interdict them before they can set up their damage. ZOS has decided to remove every method of being able to actually do this with the introduction of an absurdly powerful non-targetted AOE HOT in Earthgore and prevent positioning isolation through repeated application of Retrating Manuevers.

Lets say you did this, the bombers targets would also be unable to escape without rapids and the bombers themselves would easily be able to ambush into them.

yet again a change designed to 'hurt groups' would make no difference to them

A vast majority of bomber targets don't have perpetual rapids to begin with so your argument is narrow in that regard albeit you aren't wrong in your example. A better group would be able to make quicker work of a worse group and I'm not entirely sure how that can be construed as a bad thing.

Yes, Lotus Fanning to your target is an option. An improper attempt to isolate a specific player will result in just that.

Lucky28

Kartalin wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

ishilb14_ESO wrote: »

AD is just not very good at faction stacking. In DC, we have faction stacking down to a science, which is why we own Chalman most of the time. Our faction stack is almost impossible for Dracarys 30man zerg to handle.

Honesty is good.

I just wanted to quote this gem in case it gets edited later in a moment of clarity.

I'll tell you what AD is not good at: exploiting the animosity between DC and EP that usually gives AD a free hand to act. They almost always choose to attack EP though, and guess what, they almost always lose campaign as well.

What's the definition of insanity again?

True, but if you wipe a DC group once or twice you somehow end up fighting 3 guilds that coincidentally all end up at your location at the same time. In most cases large EP groups don’t seem to have quite the same affinity for each other unless you really just drag out a fight.

yeah but AD should probably chill on the double teaming. cause that just pisses off EP and when EP guilds log on Ad ends up getting mercilessly farmed for hours as a result.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Inig0 wrote: »

hmm on the topic of d-ult in particular the main thing I see where its over performing other ults or just in general is how it goes through block. When you compare it to other ults like meteor or bats i think the counter play associated with each ult should be a large portion of the topic.

Back when people just used meteors it was just for that sick burst to line up with det which was a pretty small window and most of that damage could largely be mitted via block or barrier for example (or by seeing the attempt to open that window of opportunity and shutting it before [insert your favorite ball group to hate on] jumped through kappa.)

If Im not mistaken back when bats was prominent it wasn't nearly as devastating as d-ult considering d-ult goes through block and the destro passives associated with it that increases its utility and strength. So with bats you didnt see this insane damage potential that you do now.

So i think the best thing to do is go down the list and point out what the good counters to the previous metas were and see if they can be applied to d-ult. If theres not a reasonable counter then it would appear that thing might be over performing in which case a rework might be necessary.

All that being said I dont care enough to even consider that. i just want the topic to move to what the counter plays are or arent. Trying to change things like general ult cost of all ults, nerfing something out of relevance, or bringing up rapids in a d-ult discussion is the last thing we need.

We just need effective counter play.

Bats also goes through block it just did less damage instead it gave heals. It was also a lot cheaper than destro meaning you can stack more, pop more at once and get them back quicker.

Destro has a 2s wind up before it starts damage. It's counter play is "move out" along with some others.

CyrusArya

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Tbh groups should be made stronger in order to encourage more groups to form.

Nah. No advantages or disadvantages should be conferred based on group status or size. The extra numbers, ultis, ability to accommodate dedicated roles, etc are more than enough of an advantage. Not to mention, lack of groups isn’t an issue rn in PvP, nor is a lack of willingness to participate in zerg play.

Anazasi

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

*Kilandros and his people go to war with Dracarys*
*Bedlam breaks out within the Pact*
*The COVENANT capitalizes on this in Vivec campaign*
*Dominion Knights and other elf tribes send 10,000 to stop the COVENANT at Chalman instead of taking alessia, sejanus, and BRK*

If I had 10,000 elfs, trust me we would all be under your bed. You all need to stop thinking DK is the zerg guild or group on the campaign. We run 16 to 20 a few nights a week. It's not my fault that DC needs to send double our numbers to kill us. If you don't believe me about group size take a look at the video's.....Theres over 100 on the Tube.

It's very possible that you are confusing Dominant Dominion and Dominion Knights. We are not the same guild although since AD likes to share players many of the DK members run with DD when I'm not leading. In fact there are times when I run with DD especially if i am just wanting to relax and play a support role. But we are not the same, we have different lead styles and group requirements. The most significant DD has multiple raid leads. DK has 1 and that is me. I have pepper if you need it?

Nihilos

CyrusArya wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Tbh groups should be made stronger in order to encourage more groups to form.

Nah. No advantages or disadvantages should be conferred based on group status or size. The extra numbers, ultis, ability to accommodate dedicated roles, etc are more than enough of an advantage. Not to mention, lack of groups isn’t an issue rn in PvP, nor is a lack of willingness to participate in zerg play.

Agreed. The only advantage a bigger group should have is having more people.

MLRPZ

Meanwhile, meteor is broken for 2 years + and no one cares.
Last year, it was insta death to fall damage when you were standing on the smallest ledge, now it's 20m rollbacks 5 to 10 seconds after you get hit and going throu block half the time

Agrippa_Invisus

MLRPZ wrote: »

Meanwhile, meteor is broken for 2 years + and no one cares.
Last year, it was insta death to fall damage when you were standing on the smallest ledge, now it's 20m rollbacks 5 to 10 seconds after you get hit and going throu block half the time

No one is saying Meteor's lag yoyoing shouldn't be fixed.

It's just not what this thread is about.

MLRPZ

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

MLRPZ wrote: »

Meanwhile, meteor is broken for 2 years + and no one cares.
Last year, it was insta death to fall damage when you were standing on the smallest ledge, now it's 20m rollbacks 5 to 10 seconds after you get hit and going throu block half the time

No one is saying Meteor's lag yoyoing shouldn't be fixed.

It's just not what this thread is about.

that's my point, no one is saying it.
Everyone is focused on EoTS which is 10 times easier to counter than buggy meteor

zyk

usmcjdking wrote: »

Destruction Staff ultimate is not the problem. Why do all these posts appear every 3-4 days? Destruction Staff ultimate can be replaced by 4-5 other skills and have the exact same effect with the exact same posts by the exact same people.

Now lets actually get into ballgroup empowering skills -
Retreating Manuevers.

This skill is the single common theme in every patch of "XYZ ULTI BALL GROUP META".

Yeah. Just like it was true before the destro ult.

What's actually buffed ball groups the past few months is the absurdity of Earthgore. It has made the well-executed ball groups practically invincible against anything other than another well-executed ball group or extreme numbers.

I do not like Destro ult gameplay, but I think that nerfing it further could have consequences that may not have been considered. For example, it is a counter to block builds and encourages mobility in builds.

What I want to see is PVP to have an active dev lead who has a say in combat design and can be more responsive to gameplay issues in Cyrodiil. ZOS needs to be more agile and iterative in its approach to PVP bugs, balance and gameplay.

Agrippa_Invisus

zyk wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Destruction Staff ultimate is not the problem. Why do all these posts appear every 3-4 days? Destruction Staff ultimate can be replaced by 4-5 other skills and have the exact same effect with the exact same posts by the exact same people.

Now lets actually get into ballgroup empowering skills -
Retreating Manuevers.

This skill is the single common theme in every patch of "XYZ ULTI BALL GROUP META".

Yeah. Just like it was true before the destro ult.

What's actually buffed ball groups the past few months is the absurdity of Earthgore. It has made the well-executed ball groups practically invincible against anything other than another well-executed ball group or extreme numbers.

I do not like Destro ult gameplay, but I think that nerfing it further without could havre consequences that may not have been considered. For example, it is a counter to block builds and encourages mobility in builds.

What I want to see is PVP to have an active dev lead who has a say in combat design and can be more responsive to gameplay issues in Cyrodiil. ZOS needs to be more agile and iterative in its approach to PVP bugs, balance and gameplay

The continued spotty communication with the PVP player base from the devs and the lack of noticeable activity by the ostensible PVP lead is just... not acceptable... from a customer relations standpoint.

It is also part and parcel of why the meta has gotten stale. They're not paying attention and not making iterative changes. Just occasional broad strokes and then vanishing again. Earthgore should never have existed in the state it's in for as long as it has. It should already be changed at least in regards to how it interacts with the effects of other players, especially ultis.

But have they done anything about it? Nope. Nothing.

Morvane

Ghostbane wrote: »

Impulse Trains
Wall of Element Trains
Steel Tornado Trains
Standard Trains
Destro Trains
etc

One goes away, another rises.

nahuy idi, filosof.

in 2 words: good changes make life tasty

Sharee

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

NobleGuardian wrote: »

waiiiittt atlas are you encouraging a rapids nerf before a desto utl nerf....

Yes. As long as destro does more damage than bats than it will continue to have it's weekly rage posts. When it's damage drops below that of bats, then bats will just be the preferred AOE ulti used in ball meta - which is what was the case prior to 1T.

As Agrippa touched on - the problem isn't Destro ult. The problem is the reliability of delivering the destro ult to it's intended target. Trying to isolate a Drac/Venatus/Fantasia bomber is nigh impossible because of Retreating Manuevers. The counterplay to high damage glass cannons has always been to interdict them before they can set up their damage. ZOS has decided to remove every method of being able to actually do this with the introduction of an absurdly powerful non-targetted AOE HOT in Earthgore and prevent positioning isolation through repeated application of Retrating Manuevers.

Lets say you did this, the bombers targets would also be unable to escape without rapids and the bombers themselves would easily be able to ambush into them.

Ambush requires you to actually target individual targets. Thats not really comparable to the ease of just following the crown and lawn-mowing everything you cross at major expedition speed while being immune to any sort of movement impairment.

I have said it long ago that the major issue with blobs is their immunity to basically anything except negate, simply because negate is the only thing that cannot be remedied by spamming rapids. Take away their perma snare immunity, and suddenly things like cinder storm on breach becomes a problem for them, and we gain many more methods of dealing with them than just doing the same thing they do.

Glory

Nihilos wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Tbh groups should be made stronger in order to encourage more groups to form.

Nah. No advantages or disadvantages should be conferred based on group status or size. The extra numbers, ultis, ability to accommodate dedicated roles, etc are more than enough of an advantage. Not to mention, lack of groups isn’t an issue rn in PvP, nor is a lack of willingness to participate in zerg play.

Agreed. The only advantage a bigger group should have is having more people.

Is it time to make another AoE caps thread? Last time we heard from ZOS about AoE caps was December 2016 (correct me if I'm wrong). I still don't get why having more than X players means you get an additional advantage of less damage taken.

Last time we heard from Brian on this forum was in August 2017 We haven't gotten much about PvP balancing in months. It'd be great to hear that they're working on things at least, but I'm guessing they're understaffed and underappreciated (by the higher-ups, not us).

Crispen_Longbow

ishilb14_ESO wrote: »

AD is just not very good at faction stacking. In DC, we have faction stacking down to a science, which is why we own Chalman most of the time. Our faction stack is almost impossible for Dracarys 30man zerg to handle.

Don't you just love when EP, a former "IR" and "Havoc" member, comes in and claims they are a DC to try and troll the thread? I believe he is running 3 years strong with the same tactic and people still fall for it.

Anazasi wrote: »

Did he really say that? Vile I don't think I've ever seen you all with more than 20 in group. But it's nice to see DC taking pride in something that they can do well.

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

ishilb14_ESO wrote: »

AD is just not very good at faction stacking. In DC, we have faction stacking down to a science, which is why we own Chalman most of the time. Our faction stack is almost impossible for Dracarys 30man zerg to handle.

Honesty is good.
I just wanted to quote this gem in case it gets edited later in a moment of clarity.

Publius_Scipio

Anazasi wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

*Kilandros and his people go to war with Dracarys*
*Bedlam breaks out within the Pact*
*The COVENANT capitalizes on this in Vivec campaign*
*Dominion Knights and other elf tribes send 10,000 to stop the COVENANT at Chalman instead of taking alessia, sejanus, and BRK*

If I had 10,000 elfs, trust me we would all be under your bed. You all need to stop thinking DK is the zerg guild or group on the campaign. We run 16 to 20 a few nights a week. It's not my fault that DC needs to send double our numbers to kill us. If you don't believe me about group size take a look at the video's.....Theres over 100 on the Tube.

It's very possible that you are confusing Dominant Dominion and Dominion Knights. We are not the same guild although since AD likes to share players many of the DK members run with DD when I'm not leading. In fact there are times when I run with DD especially if i am just wanting to relax and play a support role. But we are not the same, we have different lead styles and group requirements. The most significant DD has multiple raid leads. DK has 1 and that is me. I have pepper if you need it?

*Takes the pepper and places it back in his pantry*

I did say other elf tribes.

*Scipio dials 911*
*Tells the police Anazasi entered his house and went into the pantry taking the pepper*
*15 minutes later the NYPD arrest Anazasi*