Dungeons since T1

Kali_Despoine

Now that I have started a new account (bored with my 690) I have noticed that the non-vet tier type 2 dungeons do not do their one shot mechanics.I find this as a slap in the face and the reason so many vet players are bad at not getting hit by these mechanics. It also makes the run un-challenging if you can just stand there on your non-tank and wack away without any recourse.

My question is: Do you think non-vet dungeons should have the same one hit mechanics as their vet counterparts always had? Why?

Katahdin

No because non vet is where your see the mechanics for the first time (or should be) and can become familiar with them before going to the vet version.

Maybe they should hit a bit harder, but not one shot.

Alpheu5

No, I see normal mode as a way to see and learn the basic mechanics of the dungeon for people with near-zero experience with them. Once they become more familiar with the game and know to do what a lot of experienced players do without even thinking (stay out of red, bash the heavies, activate the XYZ), then they can apply those more advanced methods in a live situation in the veteran versions.

WrathOfInnos

Examples?

I don't think the last boss of Banished Cells 1 should be a one-shot in normal mode. It is too fast, barely telegraphed, and most players will not be able to dodge in time.

Maybe attacks like CoS Dranos Velador's one-shot if you don't interrupt the adds could still be deadly in normal, because that is a mechanic not just a cheap shot from the boss. Then again, pugging normals would be a lot more painful with more one-shot mechanics.

Kali_Despoine

tier type 2 dungeons never had a non vet before. So we OG had to learn only through vet instances. Plus they are not learning.

As of this moment I have taught over 20 players how to clean the cure off during final fight in BC2. They didn't even know about the curse. These were high end players with over 500cp to cap.

Kali_Despoine

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Examples?

I don't think the last boss of Banished Cells 1.

See I'm talking about type 2 tier so BC1 is not BC2 please try again

Apache_Kid

Kali_Despoine wrote: »

Now that I have started a new account (bored with my 690) I have noticed that the non-vet tier type 2 dungeons do not do their one shot mechanics.I find this as a slap in the face and the reason so many vet players are bad at not getting hit by these mechanics. It also makes the run un-challenging if you can just stand there on your non-tank and wack away without any recourse.

My question is: Do you think non-vet dungeons should have the same one hit mechanics as their vet counterparts always had? Why?

No. That is why there is a vet option. The majority of the people who queue in for normal dungeons are not equipped to deal with one-shot mechanics and it would make queuing for random normals a nightmare for many players.

VaranisArano

I don't know the cleanse in BC II because BC II rarely comes up in my random normal. I think I've run it once? So you'd be teaching me, a CP 690 tank, simply because I don't run it often.

Tanking Vet Dungeons and tanking Normal Dungeons is different. There's a definite learning curve. Something that you can shrug off in normal if you have a good tanking build becomes a one-shot if you don't block in veteran.

Oddly enough, you know what made my learning curve from normal to vet worse? The fact that I had a good tanking build. Let that sink in. I had a good tanking build for normals, so I didn't ever had to worry about most of the mechanics. A bad tank on the other hand? A bad tank would've learned to respect the mechanics more than my good tank did.

But on the other hand, normal dungoens are for learning. Not everyone learns to play dungeons with a good tanking build and you have to learn somewhere. When you had low levels in WGT and ICP all the time, you can bet they learned to respect the mechanics! Mechanics that were too hard in most cases and that high level players complained incessantly about having to explain to those lowbies. Can't have cake and eat it too.

WrathOfInnos

Kali_Despoine wrote: »

My question is: Do you think non-vet dungeons should have the same one hit mechanics as their vet counterparts always had? Why?

Did not realize you wanted discussion only about dungeons with a "2" in the name. Not implied by your question.

Which one-shots are you referring to specifically?

Kali_Despoine

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Kali_Despoine wrote: »

My question is: Do you think non-vet dungeons should have the same one hit mechanics as their vet counterparts always had? Why?

Did not realize you wanted discussion only about dungeons with a "2" in the name. Not implied by your question.

Which one-shots are you referring to specifically?

Kali_Despoine wrote: »

non-vet tier type 2 dungeons

Yes it was.
All of them from Spindelclutch to Eden Hallow Though Eden Hallow will not kill a 600cp+ player any more.
See even you don't know about the one shot mechanics

WrathOfInnos

So you have 0 examples then? Not sure what you are complaining about if you can't name a single instance of this happening.

The only one-shot I can think of in spindle 2 or elden 2 is the ghost in spindle that puts a red ring around you that you must stay inside. Not sure if this remains a one-shot in normal. Is this the mechanic that you want scaled up?

The falling rocks in Bloodspawns room also do high damage, but that's more about leaving the fight area than an actual mechanic that has to be done.

Kali_Despoine

actually Spindel had 2. One yes the red ring and then the last boss had one as well. I say had because our max cp can withstand the hit and/or they nerfed it. His punch used to kill if you didn't block it.
EH2 Light Hammer from second boss Dark Root is it's name I think
BC2 last boss though not a one shot but if curse was left on long enough you would die
F23 tether from the second boss and AOE and laser from the Dreugh boss
DS2 First boss flame attack

in non-vet these all tickle and do no real damage. You can literally stand there and take it like it's nothing to worry about. This will not teach you anything about the mechanic if you think it will not kill you.

Kanar

Yes normal dungeons should at least be able to one shot damage dealers and healer. The argument that players learn mechanics in normal dungeons doesn't hold water, because if they are not forced to learn then they don't. Instead they just heal through it and don't learn. So the one shots should be there.

Alpheu5

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

So you have 0 examples then? Not sure what you are complaining about if you can't name a single instance of this happening.

The only one-shot I can think of in spindle 2 or elden 2 is the ghost in spindle that puts a red ring around you that you must stay inside. Not sure if this remains a one-shot in normal. Is this the mechanic that you want scaled up?

The falling rocks in Bloodspawns room also do high damage, but that's more about leaving the fight area than an actual mechanic that has to be done.

You can absolutely faceplant into the Red Ring of Loneliness in normal BC2 and walk away with little more than a slap on the wrist. I tanked it as a random for the luls one day and was honestly amazed that the person that kept getting ringed didn't even try to avoid it, even though it was obviously a bad thing.

goldenarcher1

Crypt of Hearts 2 normal 2nd to last boss still has the insta-death mechanic.

Apherius

Still waiting for the " Well just put your stuff and CP off " answer. There is always someone to say this, and they will never understand that there is a difference between the challenge that you create by your own and the challenge that the game give you.

btw no, i don't think , they should better add more " tiers", normal is too easy and Vet is still easy or too hard for some so we need a tier between Normal and veteran that we could call " intermediate " then a tier after veteran that we could call " Champion "

DMuehlhausen

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Examples?

I don't think the last boss of Banished Cells 1 should be a one-shot in normal mode. It is too fast, barely telegraphed, and most players will not be able to dodge in time.

Maybe attacks like CoS Dranos Velador's one-shot if you don't interrupt the adds could still be deadly in normal, because that is a mechanic not just a cheap shot from the boss. Then again, pugging normals would be a lot more painful with more one-shot mechanics.

What attack are you talking about? The flame circles? Those are easily telegraphed and you can roll out of them. It hits everyone in the group so 4 circles so it will hit you.

If you're talking about the range attack. You just have to pay attention to him and you can block the attack. If you're blocking, it does almost no damage.

rhapsodious

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Examples?

I don't think the last boss of Banished Cells 1 should be a one-shot in normal mode. It is too fast, barely telegraphed, and most players will not be able to dodge in time.

Maybe attacks like CoS Dranos Velador's one-shot if you don't interrupt the adds could still be deadly in normal, because that is a mechanic not just a cheap shot from the boss. Then again, pugging normals would be a lot more painful with more one-shot mechanics.

What attack are you talking about? The flame circles? Those are easily telegraphed and you can roll out of them. It hits everyone in the group so 4 circles so it will hit you.

If you're talking about the range attack. You just have to pay attention to him and you can block the attack. If you're blocking, it does almost no damage.

The one after the teleport jumps where the tank is stunned and Dranos charges up his super-heavy, presumably, since you're supposed to interrupt the adds for that. Otherwise you get whacked.

starkerealm

Kali_Despoine wrote: »

F23 tether from the second boss and AOE and laser from the Dreugh boss

I think the tether still 1hits in normal. I mean, the tether execute may only be 15k damage, I'm not 100% certain off hand.

NordSwordnBoard

II Normal Dungeons should have a one shot imo. A party member dying resonates better with the team as far as what their tactics might be (standing in red/not standing in red - not using stamina to save for dodge rolls/break free and walking out of red instead of rolling out) as opposed to a near death which can go unnoticed with a decent healer in normal.

Getting one shot in a normal II is a better prep for Vet, and deaths are easy to recover from in normal dungeons for the group. Rezzing order and responsibility should be learned before you get to vet content.

I think its good to raise the stakes a little in this regard, seeing as there's little risk to begin with in normal dungeons.

xb1LL_mr_sir_LL

this isnt a regular mmo its an Elder Scrolls game,people need their easy mode.

AlnilamE

Kali_Despoine wrote: »

actually Spindel had 2. One yes the red ring and then the last boss had one as well. I say had because our max cp can withstand the hit and/or they nerfed it. His punch used to kill if you didn't block it.
EH2 Light Hammer from second boss Dark Root is it's name I think
BC2 last boss though not a one shot but if curse was left on long enough you would die
F23 tether from the second boss and AOE and laser from the Dreugh boss
DS2 First boss flame attack

in non-vet these all tickle and do no real damage. You can literally stand there and take it like it's nothing to worry about. This will not teach you anything about the mechanic if you think it will not kill you.

EH2: Dark Root only one-shot you if you didn't follow the mechanic and stayed far enough apart.
BC2: You still die in Vet
FG2: I'm sure the tether still kills you. The laser from the Spawn of Mephala (the Dreugh Boss is in FG1) does not kill you in Vet unless you are also in the boss' AoE. Plenty of people still die in Normal.
DS2: Did that one-shot if Vet? I don't remember that boss ever being problematic. Grobull is the team breaker in that dungeon.

WrathOfInnos

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Examples?

I don't think the last boss of Banished Cells 1 should be a one-shot in normal mode. It is too fast, barely telegraphed, and most players will not be able to dodge in time.

Maybe attacks like CoS Dranos Velador's one-shot if you don't interrupt the adds could still be deadly in normal, because that is a mechanic not just a cheap shot from the boss. Then again, pugging normals would be a lot more painful with more one-shot mechanics.

What attack are you talking about? The flame circles? Those are easily telegraphed and you can roll out of them. It hits everyone in the group so 4 circles so it will hit you.

If you're talking about the range attack. You just have to pay attention to him and you can block the attack. If you're blocking, it does almost no damage.

I was referring to the ranged attack in BC2. Even in vet a shield will protect me from it, and at range it can be dodged. Still it always manages to kill any stamina melee in the group, and often unsuspecting healers that are focused on keeping people alive during fire. Spending half the fight rezzing is not fun, and extending this to normal mode to troll casuals is a terrible idea.

Most of the things listed in this thread are not even 1 shots on vet. Which I guess is part of the complaint, that everything is becoming too easy with CP.

Someone mentioned doing dungeons without CP assigned or without armor. I'll agree that this is pointless in the current game design, but I do think it could be fun if they added achievements and titles for these type of challenges. Kind of like the speed runs and deathless achievements. I recall in the game Fable you could accept challenges to do certain quests Naked for extra rewards, that could be a nice challenge here as well. I imagine the naked VMA title would be rare and impressive. Or maybe a no-CP vMoL group clear.

vyndral13preub18_ESO

Im split on this. You need them to learn to dodge/block the one shot in an easier setting. Because if they dont, when they hit vet, they wont. And they wont have practiced. So what was the point of normal again? To teach them that the healer can carry them through all the bad decisions they make? But it does seem odd to punish new players with a one shot mechanic.

Anyway Damned if you do. Damned if you don't.

WrathOfInnos

@vyndral13preub18_ESO I'm not sure normals are intended to teach mechanics. People that care about mechanics will run vet and will learn about the one-shots quickly. Normal is for casual play, experiencing dungeon quest stories, leveling characters, unlocking skill points, etc.

Kali_Despoine

AlnilamE wrote: »

EH2: Dark Root only one-shot you if you didn't follow the mechanic and stayed far enough apart.
BC2: You still die in Vet
FG2: I'm sure the tether still kills you. The laser from the Spawn of Mephala (the Dreugh Boss is in FG1) does not kill you in Vet unless you are also in the boss' AoE. Plenty of people still die in Normal.
DS2: Did that one-shot if Vet? I don't remember that boss ever being problematic. Grobull is the team breaker in that dungeon.

The question was for normal dungeons not vet. Should the mechanics still work the same in normal dungeons?
Also thank you for correcting me on FG2 yes it's not a Dreugh.
And no the tether in normal is laughable.

vyndral13preub18_ESO

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I'm not sure normals are intended to teach mechanics. People that care about mechanics will run vet and will learn about the one-shots quickly. Normal is for casual play, experiencing dungeon quest stories, leveling characters, unlocking skill points, etc.

Have to strongly disagree with this. Why do normal have any mechanics at all then? Heck just have the monsters stand there and not do anything if the normals are good for nothing.

Anyway If that is the case then I’d say we need an easier tier under normal. Story mode maybe? For the people who want to light attack their way through.

Doctordarkspawn

Kali_Despoine wrote: »

tier type 2 dungeons never had a non vet before. So we OG had to learn only through vet instances. Plus they are not learning.

As of this moment I have taught over 20 players how to clean the cure off during final fight in BC2. They didn't even know about the curse. These were high end players with over 500cp to cap.

That's mostly because the game never bothered to teach anyone jack all.

If we gave an easier difficulty, tuned up normal, and then let people run what they wanted to run on the weakest, this problem would mostly be solved, but I doubt that'll happen anytime soon.

Mostly because of community revilement at anything not hard because of the screeching of the 1%

Kali_Despoine

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

That's mostly because the game never bothered to teach anyone jack all.

If we gave an easier difficulty, tuned up normal, and then let people run what they wanted to run on the weakest, this problem would mostly be solved, but I doubt that'll happen anytime soon.

Mostly because of community revilement at anything not hard because of the screeching of the 1%

I don't consider myself as a 1% but there is no challenge in this game but the new DLC dungeons on vet. I'm sure if I played them more often they too would become lackluster.

Have you ever seen anyone pull the twins (Harvester Bosses) together in BC2? I do it but I have yet seen it done by anyone that I don't play with.
Tank a Bone Colossus boss in a corner so he can't run?
There are so many things that I do that I never seen done before.
From start to boss and boss to boss I pull all the mobs together and burn w/ said boss. This is getting harder to do as the stun after stun these mobs now throw are getting out of hand but nothing a trash stam pot can't fix.Really I've been thinking about putting Rapids on my back bar and removing inner light(dps) and quick cloak (tank) so the rest of the group can keep up with me.
You might ask where are my stam dps at, well they PvP since I don't like to pay to change cp and morphs.

VaranisArano

Normal Dungeons still have mechanics. The lower the group DPS, and in general the lower level the players, the more you have to respect the mechanics. This is important because ZOS redid the dungeon difficulties, meaning that low level players with ESO+ or the DLC didn't get shunted into the DLC dungeons with greater frequency. Everyone knows that the DLC dungeon mechanics can be punishing on normal - so much so that they were very hard for low level players to deal with. No one was happy with that situation and that's why ZOS changed it.

But fine, a list of mechanics in (Non DLC) Normal Dungeons that you have to respect. Caveat: stuff that tanks have to respect and stuff that squishy 14k health DPS have to respect is quite different. No, I don't want to hear "But with amazing DPS you can melt everything in normal!!!" Because you can, but normal is designed for players to get in at the lowest level they can, where they are very unlikely to do amazing DPS. You can't balance Normal dungeons for amazing DPS - you've got vet and trials for that.

Not all of these are one shots, but many will kill and the rest will make your run a pain if you don't respect them

Arx Corinium - The Songstress and her pet
Volenfell - The steam tunnel. Not a boss, but that steam will murder you
Direfrost Keep - not really that bad, but Drodda's healing/drain spell can get bad if you don't break free
Vaults of Madness - Sacrifice a fellow player on the first boss, do the hokey pokey on the final boss getting in or out depending on where he shields
Elden Hollow II - the dark/light circles on the Lurcher boss
Fungal Grotto II - Gamyne Bandu's chain DPS check, Cirenas the Shepherd's spiders granting resistance if killed, Vila Theran's darkness
Darkshade Caverns II - the Patriarch's reflect and the Engine Guardian's poison phase (lever, spam heals, or die)
Crypt of Hearts II - Spider Lady's webs & storm, 2nd to last boss you'd better roll out into a clear area, Nerien'eth's DPS check
City of Ash II - Urata's adds must be killed, The Fire Maw's waves of adds, Valkyn Skoria's DPS check.

Now Veteran difficulty takes a ton of stuff you had no problems with on Normal and makes them one shots, including regular attacks from the bosses. In Vet, any telegraphed boss attack can be a one-shot. Therefore (unless you've got amazing DPS in the group) you have to respect ALL the mechanics, which results in a big learning curve if you were, effectively, too good for Normal dungeons.

Normal says "Its a good idea if you block this, but you won't die if you fail/lag/stand in stupid." Veteran says "Block or die. Lagged? Dead. Blocked too slow? Dead. Didn't roll out of stupid in time? Dead. Do better next time."