We need to do something about the zergbads.

VaranisArano

ak_pvp wrote: »

Adapt to getting mowed down by multiple players who themselves don't need to adapt or manage resources/health/buffs because they have numbers carrying them without any drawback. Hell, for some reason AoE caps exist. Its fair that multiple players can damage/snare/root/debuff you but you can do it to 6ish, with lowering damage and effects capping out.

There is no reason an NB shouldn't be able to fear everyone within the cone, or a DK talonsing everyone in the vicinity.

Oh, LOL! Players in zergs don't need to adapt or manage resources/health/buffs? Nope!

Zerg surfers absolutely have to manage their resources/health/buffs because even though they are in greater numbers, they are still alone. They don't get the benefit of anything other than hiding in the pack. If I'm zerg surfing, the only person I can depend on is myself and if I get out of position or move up too fast, I'm dead. Its possible to do this "mindlessly" as you say, but that player is going to end up out of position and dead more often than not. Effectively "surfing" the zerg is not as easy as it looks. (Admittedly, I will join the zerg from Chalman to Bleaks when I get tired of solo running around all the different keeps anymore and just want a guaranteed fight. So I'll allow that its less effort than paying attention to the map and anticipating enemy movements. But even then, the actual fighting is never mindless. Now if only we'd actually set up siege on Bleaks...)

If I'm PUGing it, I can sort of depend on my group members, but not too much because most PUGs aren't that organized. I'm still paying a lot of attention to my health/resources/buffs, plus everyone else's. In both situations zerg surf or PUG, I'm constantly paying attention to the tactical situation trying to figure out when to push, retreat or lay siege. You might see me carried along by the tide, but I'm fighting in a very active way within that tide of players. If I start running mindlessly, I'll be dead in short order.

Most of my experience comes from running with organized raids. Organized raids are all about managing resources/health/buffs as a coordinated groups. You can't overextend your healers or get the players with less stam locked down in the back because then you wipe. You can't run your healers out of magicka on the ram because you still have to take the keep. You can't not pay attention to health/resources/buffs because those buffs are what's keeping you alive and your resources are letting you do damage. An organized raid is constantly adapting to the tactical situation and managing their resources/health/buffs. If they weren't they'd be far less effective or they'd be dead.

Now, organized raids do have a leader. So its tempting to say that the players just hand over all the thinking to their leader, stay on crown, and drop ultimates on command. That may be the case in some raids? But I've never really believed that. Combat in Cyrodiil is too fluid for a raid that performs well to mindlessly follow their leader's calls. I regularly raid with an organized group and it takes constant, active thought to read the combat, anticipate my leader and follow calls, to know when I should throw heals, when I should switch to damage or CCs, to manage my own resources and buffs, to know when to dodge, break free, rezz the fallen, and all the many things that go on in PVP combat. Good organized raiding is not mindless. Mindless organized raiding is just a bad raid that's going to wind up dead.

So I don't buy this idea that players in the zerg are mindlessly playing. If they are, you don't have to worry about them, they'll be dead soon enough. Most players in the zerg are actively thinking and playing the game, managing their own health, resources, and buff without relying on other players. In an organized raid, those players are most certainly relying on their fellows but are also managing their own in order to play as a coordinated, effective group - and to be effective, there is nothing mindless about good coordinated play.

ak_pvp

VaranisArano wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Adapt to getting mowed down by multiple players who themselves don't need to adapt or manage resources/health/buffs because they have numbers carrying them without any drawback. Hell, for some reason AoE caps exist. Its fair that multiple players can damage/snare/root/debuff you but you can do it to 6ish, with lowering damage and effects capping out.

There is no reason an NB shouldn't be able to fear everyone within the cone, or a DK talonsing everyone in the vicinity.

Oh, LOL! Players in zergs don't need to adapt or manage resources/health/buffs? Nope!

Zerg surfers absolutely have to manage their resources/health/buffs because even though they are in greater numbers, they are still alone. They don't get the benefit of anything other than hiding in the pack. If I'm zerg surfing, the only person I can depend on is myself and if I get out of position or move up too fast, I'm dead. Its possible to do this "mindlessly" as you say, but that player is going to end up out of position and dead more often than not. Effectively "surfing" the zerg is not as easy as it looks. (Admittedly, I will join the zerg from Chalman to Bleaks when I get tired of solo running around all the different keeps anymore and just want a guaranteed fight. So I'll allow that its less effort than paying attention to the map and anticipating enemy movements. But even then, the actual fighting is never mindless. Now if only we'd actually set up siege on Bleaks...)

If I'm PUGing it, I can sort of depend on my group members, but not too much because most PUGs aren't that organized. I'm still paying a lot of attention to my health/resources/buffs, plus everyone else's. In both situations zerg surf or PUG, I'm constantly paying attention to the tactical situation trying to figure out when to push, retreat or lay siege. You might see me carried along by the tide, but I'm fighting in a very active way within that tide of players. If I start running mindlessly, I'll be dead in short order.

Most of my experience comes from running with organized raids. Organized raids are all about managing resources/health/buffs as a coordinated groups. You can't overextend your healers or get the players with less stam locked down in the back because then you wipe. You can't run your healers out of magicka on the ram because you still have to take the keep. You can't not pay attention to health/resources/buffs because those buffs are what's keeping you alive and your resources are letting you do damage. An organized raid is constantly adapting to the tactical situation and managing their resources/health/buffs. If they weren't they'd be far less effective or they'd be dead.

Now, organized raids do have a leader. So its tempting to say that the players just hand over all the thinking to their leader, stay on crown, and drop ultimates on command. That may be the case in some raids? But I've never really believed that. Combat in Cyrodiil is too fluid for a raid that performs well to mindlessly follow their leader's calls. I regularly raid with an organized group and it takes constant, active thought to read the combat, anticipate my leader and follow calls, to know when I should throw heals, when I should switch to damage or CCs, to manage my own resources and buffs, to know when to dodge, break free, rezz the fallen, and all the many things that go on in PVP combat. Good organized raiding is not mindless. Mindless organized raiding is just a bad raid that's going to wind up dead.

So I don't buy this idea that players in the zerg are mindlessly playing. If they are, you don't have to worry about them, they'll be dead soon enough. Most players in the zerg are actively thinking and playing the game, managing their own health, resources, and buff without relying on other players. In an organized raid, those players are most certainly relying on their fellows but are also managing their own in order to play as a coordinated, effective group - and to be effective, there is nothing mindless about good coordinated play.

I have surfed zergs before. And in no way possible do they have to manage their resources the same as a solo/small group player does. Tent do the have to pull of well timed combo to kill a player, they are focused less, they get healed by the many healers and EVEN IF they die, they can be revived without much loss. Saying you don't have to worry about them is comical since they still deal damage.

The basis of this entire post is that players should have to look after themselves more, and that solo/small group/zergs should have a more fair playing game field and not win for numbers alone. Done by removing extra defenses by grouping gives and making it so defenses scale. (imagine if dodge roll/cloak had a cap to what you can cloak/dodge from)

And this zerg weakening doesn't have to do with smaller organised groups, I said that in my comments and based my suggestions of it. For example: Limiting healing to two affects big unorganised zergs who only win because of raw numbers, not smaller organised groups where there are less healers and most look after themselves.

Mojmir

ak_pvp wrote: »

Mojmir wrote: »

Make up your mind, you want people in pvp or not? Take the good with the bad, war isn't supposed to be fair.

Making the game fairer will kill PvP?

No, maybe people not getting zerged down constantly and playing horse sim would have more people in PvP. To those like you saying oh well, irl wars are like this. We aren't in real life, we are in a game where people are throwing fire balls and can resurrect.

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

if you’re not in an organized group using discord or TS yeah, you’re going to lose then subsequently complain that you are getting steam rolled by zergs. Even though there is a clear cut difference between a Zerg of disorganized players and a full raid of organized players. I’m not talking “put x in chat, TS required” groups. That’s not organized. It’s randoms. A real organized group isn’t a “bunch of idiots” as you say, it’s quite the opposite. Specialized roles and required builds, tactics and strategy that leads to victory 9/10 times against an enemy force twice the size. I know some people don’t like having to build how someone else tells them too but that order and discipline is key to success. It’s an AvAvA large scale war. Battlegrounds should of been a good answer for small scale but they ruined it with CP...

This. A raid that trains together, runs close together, and has a mixture of roles for support, healing, and damage is going to dominate the battlefield because of superior organization and execution of tactics. Gear sets and meta skills will come and go, organization and training carries the day.

Organized raid v PUGs is a slaughter, 9 times out of 10. Organized raid v organized raid has been some of the best PVP I've ever experienced. But then, I enjoy group combat and playing support roles. I certainly understand the people who prefer 1v1 or small group or PUGing it, and I've done all of those, but my preferred playstyle is definitely playing with a trained, organized, raid.

And what’s funny is even though I run with a organized guild I still actually prefer solo or small group lol. It’s a great sight to see when we roll through twice the enemy numbers but there is something more fun about running solo to me. Maybe more gratification from victories as I achieve them all by myself? Either way, both play styles are fun and people need to learn to adapt to any given situation.

Adapt to getting mowed down by multiple players who themselves don't need to adapt or manage resources/health/buffs because they have numbers carrying them without any drawback. Hell, for some reason AoE caps exist. There is no reason an NB shouldn't be able to fear everyone within the cone, or a DK talonsing everyone in the vicinity, since an entire group could do that to a single player with full damage and effects.

Play battlegrounds, no horse and no zergs

ak_pvp

Mojmir wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Mojmir wrote: »

Make up your mind, you want people in pvp or not? Take the good with the bad, war isn't supposed to be fair.

Making the game fairer will kill PvP?

No, maybe people not getting zerged down constantly and playing horse sim would have more people in PvP. To those like you saying oh well, irl wars are like this. We aren't in real life, we are in a game where people are throwing fire balls and can resurrect.

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

if you’re not in an organized group using discord or TS yeah, you’re going to lose then subsequently complain that you are getting steam rolled by zergs. Even though there is a clear cut difference between a Zerg of disorganized players and a full raid of organized players. I’m not talking “put x in chat, TS required” groups. That’s not organized. It’s randoms. A real organized group isn’t a “bunch of idiots” as you say, it’s quite the opposite. Specialized roles and required builds, tactics and strategy that leads to victory 9/10 times against an enemy force twice the size. I know some people don’t like having to build how someone else tells them too but that order and discipline is key to success. It’s an AvAvA large scale war. Battlegrounds should of been a good answer for small scale but they ruined it with CP...

This. A raid that trains together, runs close together, and has a mixture of roles for support, healing, and damage is going to dominate the battlefield because of superior organization and execution of tactics. Gear sets and meta skills will come and go, organization and training carries the day.

Organized raid v PUGs is a slaughter, 9 times out of 10. Organized raid v organized raid has been some of the best PVP I've ever experienced. But then, I enjoy group combat and playing support roles. I certainly understand the people who prefer 1v1 or small group or PUGing it, and I've done all of those, but my preferred playstyle is definitely playing with a trained, organized, raid.

And what’s funny is even though I run with a organized guild I still actually prefer solo or small group lol. It’s a great sight to see when we roll through twice the enemy numbers but there is something more fun about running solo to me. Maybe more gratification from victories as I achieve them all by myself? Either way, both play styles are fun and people need to learn to adapt to any given situation.

Adapt to getting mowed down by multiple players who themselves don't need to adapt or manage resources/health/buffs because they have numbers carrying them without any drawback. Hell, for some reason AoE caps exist. There is no reason an NB shouldn't be able to fear everyone within the cone, or a DK talonsing everyone in the vicinity, since an entire group could do that to a single player with full damage and effects.

Play battlegrounds, no horse and no zergs

I do, since I have less time generally. However whilst they are better than openworld the amazing choice of the same balancing and cp have made it an unavoidable tank fest as alexandrious mentioned.

lao

ak_pvp wrote: »

A key aspect of ESOs AVA style combat, but the way they are currently is fun for no one. Unkillable balls of idiots who have to think of nothing just spam attacks, if they die, no matter. They get rezzed instantly. Anything that can combat zergs is taken away too. Dynamic ultimate, nerfed. Blazing shield builds, nerfed. (The fact that they dealt near no damage without being hit meant it was balanced) Proxy, nerfed. (Fair) Even block builds who can really only do damage when hit on with multiple targets get nerfed.

What I would change:

• Readd a lesser form of dynamic ultimate. On top of the current ult gen we have now. This won't be too OP, but will still help.
• Buff and add more abilities/sets that scale well against multiple targets. Things like proxy, blazing, seventh and fury. Things like shimmering/wings should be per person. General stuff to not be streamrolled.
• Remove all AoE caps completely, aside from effects that have low targets purposefully. (Jabs extra st damage and shalk st stun.) Things like encase or permafrost should damage and stun anyone able to be stunned within the range, whether its 1 or 100 people.
• Make rezzing more difficult. When rezzing in PvP there should be a cost. maybe health, ulti or something? And those who have been rezzed shouldn't be able to res themselves for 1min. This would less affect coordinated groups, more large masses who can just shrug off any death.
• Limit healing to two people in PvP. How this would work. When healed, it'd assign two healers to a player for x seconds, (yourself not included) and for that X seconds, you can only be healed by yourself or two healers. This won't affect small groups, and healers can still heal multiple players, just bigger groups can't stack them and heal through everything. Players would have to look out for there own health bar a little more. PvP only Maybe even reduce all external healing. So anything not healed by themselves is reduced. However for this the achievements will have to be changed.
• Nerf abilities/sets that allow zergs to take no damage/Xv1 hard. Soul assault, snipe spam, earth gore, the ability to camp high up and spam ranged trash without fear, (Chains and gapclosers outside of keeps should take you to them/vice versa.)
• EDIT: Limiting snares to a maj/min system. Stam warden can deal with it, but other classes have to sacrifice a lot and it just sucks. Break free? Snared 70% and zerged down.

On snipe spam, i'd make it have to be aimed, like a long, narrow soul assault, but remove the cast time and be faster/unblockable if it hits and do more damage at range, so it would require skill to use, but able to work as a spammable and be very damaging.

you´re taking the wrong approach to deal with this. your treating symptoms but ignore the root of the problem. cyrodiil zone design is complete trash. objective based pvp is trash. get rid of all those keeps or make them completely irrelevant to pvp. change group cap to 8 ppl max and make anyone beeing hit by more than 8 ppl automatically be worth 0 ap.

the way an open world pvp zone is meant to work is a ton of small groups roaming around looking for competitive fights between each other while respecting each others fights and not add on each other when a fight is already in progress.

instead we get a giant cluster**** cos every single person on the map gets tunnelled into the same location cos some clueless amateur at ZOS thought objective based pvp would be great. its not. it never was. it never will be. just get rid of it completely finally and turn cyrodiil into a highly competitive pvp arena as it should have been from the very beginning.

deepseamk20b14_ESO

ak_pvp wrote: »

Mojmir wrote: »

Make up your mind, you want people in pvp or not? Take the good with the bad, war isn't supposed to be fair.

Making the game fairer will kill PvP?

No, maybe people not getting zerged down constantly and playing horse sim would have more people in PvP. To those like you saying oh well, irl wars are like this. We aren't in real life, we are in a game where people are throwing fire balls and can resurrect.

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

if you’re not in an organized group using discord or TS yeah, you’re going to lose then subsequently complain that you are getting steam rolled by zergs. Even though there is a clear cut difference between a Zerg of disorganized players and a full raid of organized players. I’m not talking “put x in chat, TS required” groups. That’s not organized. It’s randoms. A real organized group isn’t a “bunch of idiots” as you say, it’s quite the opposite. Specialized roles and required builds, tactics and strategy that leads to victory 9/10 times against an enemy force twice the size. I know some people don’t like having to build how someone else tells them too but that order and discipline is key to success. It’s an AvAvA large scale war. Battlegrounds should of been a good answer for small scale but they ruined it with CP...

This. A raid that trains together, runs close together, and has a mixture of roles for support, healing, and damage is going to dominate the battlefield because of superior organization and execution of tactics. Gear sets and meta skills will come and go, organization and training carries the day.

Organized raid v PUGs is a slaughter, 9 times out of 10. Organized raid v organized raid has been some of the best PVP I've ever experienced. But then, I enjoy group combat and playing support roles. I certainly understand the people who prefer 1v1 or small group or PUGing it, and I've done all of those, but my preferred playstyle is definitely playing with a trained, organized, raid.

And what’s funny is even though I run with a organized guild I still actually prefer solo or small group lol. It’s a great sight to see when we roll through twice the enemy numbers but there is something more fun about running solo to me. Maybe more gratification from victories as I achieve them all by myself? Either way, both play styles are fun and people need to learn to adapt to any given situation.

Adapt to getting mowed down by multiple players who themselves don't need to adapt or manage resources/health/buffs because they have numbers carrying them without any drawback. Hell, for some reason AoE caps exist. There is no reason an NB shouldn't be able to fear everyone within the cone, or a DK talonsing everyone in the vicinity, since an entire group could do that to a single player with full damage and effects.

Your logic is incredibly flawed.

Get into an actual good group and go against another good organized group. It isn’t “mindless spamming of skills”.

My organized group will steam roll you and 50 others. If it’s so mindless, why is it that 50 unorganized players, can’t beat 24 organized players? If 24 “mindless people (as you call them)” best you and 49 others....man....what does that make you? Worse than mindless? By all means it must.

Why in the hell should one NB be able to fear anyone in a cone, which could literally be a dozen people or more if they were in this imaginary cone. Why the hell should one DK be able to talon everyone in their immediate vicinity? While you’re at it, make surprise attack hit everyone in a cone. While we’re at it, let’s double leaps radius and make flame lash 360 degrees. Any other silly ideas?

I don’t think you have the greatest situational awareness if you’re getting destroyed by zergs. Rarely do I die to zergs because I pick where I fight and if i see a Zerg coming I don’t just stand there dumb founded. 90% of my gameplay is solo as well.

Vilestride

lao wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

A key aspect of ESOs AVA style combat, but the way they are currently is fun for no one. Unkillable balls of idiots who have to think of nothing just spam attacks, if they die, no matter. They get rezzed instantly. Anything that can combat zergs is taken away too. Dynamic ultimate, nerfed. Blazing shield builds, nerfed. (The fact that they dealt near no damage without being hit meant it was balanced) Proxy, nerfed. (Fair) Even block builds who can really only do damage when hit on with multiple targets get nerfed.

What I would change:

• Readd a lesser form of dynamic ultimate. On top of the current ult gen we have now. This won't be too OP, but will still help.
• Buff and add more abilities/sets that scale well against multiple targets. Things like proxy, blazing, seventh and fury. Things like shimmering/wings should be per person. General stuff to not be streamrolled.
• Remove all AoE caps completely, aside from effects that have low targets purposefully. (Jabs extra st damage and shalk st stun.) Things like encase or permafrost should damage and stun anyone able to be stunned within the range, whether its 1 or 100 people.
• Make rezzing more difficult. When rezzing in PvP there should be a cost. maybe health, ulti or something? And those who have been rezzed shouldn't be able to res themselves for 1min. This would less affect coordinated groups, more large masses who can just shrug off any death.
• Limit healing to two people in PvP. How this would work. When healed, it'd assign two healers to a player for x seconds, (yourself not included) and for that X seconds, you can only be healed by yourself or two healers. This won't affect small groups, and healers can still heal multiple players, just bigger groups can't stack them and heal through everything. Players would have to look out for there own health bar a little more. PvP only Maybe even reduce all external healing. So anything not healed by themselves is reduced. However for this the achievements will have to be changed.
• Nerf abilities/sets that allow zergs to take no damage/Xv1 hard. Soul assault, snipe spam, earth gore, the ability to camp high up and spam ranged trash without fear, (Chains and gapclosers outside of keeps should take you to them/vice versa.)
• EDIT: Limiting snares to a maj/min system. Stam warden can deal with it, but other classes have to sacrifice a lot and it just sucks. Break free? Snared 70% and zerged down.

On snipe spam, i'd make it have to be aimed, like a long, narrow soul assault, but remove the cast time and be faster/unblockable if it hits and do more damage at range, so it would require skill to use, but able to work as a spammable and be very damaging.

you´re taking the wrong approach to deal with this. your treating symptoms but ignore the root of the problem. cyrodiil zone design is complete trash. objective based pvp is trash. get rid of all those keeps or make them completely irrelevant to pvp. change group cap to 8 ppl max and make anyone beeing hit by more than 8 ppl automatically be worth 0 ap.

the way an open world pvp zone is meant to work is a ton of small groups roaming around looking for competitive fights between each other while respecting each others fights and not add on each other when a fight is already in progress.

instead we get a giant cluster**** cos every single person on the map gets tunnelled into the same location cos some clueless amateur at ZOS thought objective based pvp would be great. its not. it never was. it never will be. just get rid of it completely finally and turn cyrodiil into a highly competitive pvp arena as it should have been from the very beginning.

If you want ESO to pretty much fundementally be a different game..... Why don't you just play a different game. Keep seiges and AvAvA is what we signed up for.

The game description may as well have said zerg v zerg and yet you bought it.....

Play how you want? Sure you have that freedom. They never promised it'd be easy or that you wouldn't get outnumbered by the large groups they did specifically say there would be.

Everything I just read from your post sounds like a guy complaining he hates hamburgers after just buying a happy meal.

ak_pvp

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Mojmir wrote: »

Make up your mind, you want people in pvp or not? Take the good with the bad, war isn't supposed to be fair.

Making the game fairer will kill PvP?

No, maybe people not getting zerged down constantly and playing horse sim would have more people in PvP. To those like you saying oh well, irl wars are like this. We aren't in real life, we are in a game where people are throwing fire balls and can resurrect.

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

if you’re not in an organized group using discord or TS yeah, you’re going to lose then subsequently complain that you are getting steam rolled by zergs. Even though there is a clear cut difference between a Zerg of disorganized players and a full raid of organized players. I’m not talking “put x in chat, TS required” groups. That’s not organized. It’s randoms. A real organized group isn’t a “bunch of idiots” as you say, it’s quite the opposite. Specialized roles and required builds, tactics and strategy that leads to victory 9/10 times against an enemy force twice the size. I know some people don’t like having to build how someone else tells them too but that order and discipline is key to success. It’s an AvAvA large scale war. Battlegrounds should of been a good answer for small scale but they ruined it with CP...

This. A raid that trains together, runs close together, and has a mixture of roles for support, healing, and damage is going to dominate the battlefield because of superior organization and execution of tactics. Gear sets and meta skills will come and go, organization and training carries the day.

Organized raid v PUGs is a slaughter, 9 times out of 10. Organized raid v organized raid has been some of the best PVP I've ever experienced. But then, I enjoy group combat and playing support roles. I certainly understand the people who prefer 1v1 or small group or PUGing it, and I've done all of those, but my preferred playstyle is definitely playing with a trained, organized, raid.

And what’s funny is even though I run with a organized guild I still actually prefer solo or small group lol. It’s a great sight to see when we roll through twice the enemy numbers but there is something more fun about running solo to me. Maybe more gratification from victories as I achieve them all by myself? Either way, both play styles are fun and people need to learn to adapt to any given situation.

Adapt to getting mowed down by multiple players who themselves don't need to adapt or manage resources/health/buffs because they have numbers carrying them without any drawback. Hell, for some reason AoE caps exist. There is no reason an NB shouldn't be able to fear everyone within the cone, or a DK talonsing everyone in the vicinity, since an entire group could do that to a single player with full damage and effects.

Your logic is incredibly flawed.

Get into an actual good group and go against another good organized group. It isn’t “mindless spamming of skills”.

My organized group will steam roll you and 50 others. If it’s so mindless, why is it that 50 unorganized players, can’t beat 24 organized players? If 24 “mindless people (as you call them)” best you and 49 others....man....what does that make you? Worse than mindless? By all means it must.

Why in the hell should one NB be able to fear anyone in a cone, which could literally be a dozen people or more if they were in this imaginary cone. Why the hell should one DK be able to talon everyone in their immediate vicinity? While you’re at it, make surprise attack hit everyone in a cone. While we’re at it, let’s double leaps radius and make flame lash 360 degrees. Any other silly ideas?

I don’t think you have the greatest situational awareness if you’re getting destroyed by zergs. Rarely do I die to zergs because I pick where I fight and if i see a Zerg coming I don’t just stand there dumb founded. 90% of my gameplay is solo as well.

Did you not read the rest of my posts, you know, the things that organised groups wont be affected since they look after themselves too. Just breaking the extra defense players get from being a group for no reason. And that it will only affect the bad ones.

If the nb/dk is fighting a dozen people, they are out matched in damage, combined health, and healing power. Why should their abilities have some arbitrary limit to people if all those people could affect the NB/Dk. (same with encase, warden spikes and the like too, basically total removal of aoe caps)

On escaping zerg. As a dk/templar/some wardens. If you see a zerg coming your generally ***. Also why should they have to. Hey, you. Either group up, run from half the fights or die.

Is there any reason things to limit mindless zerging or buff solo/smaller players is bad, or would you like anyone below a certain amount of players just to be steamrolled? I play mainly solo, (mainly bgs atm since time Constraints) and used to play haderus because it was smaller. Unfortunately it's now more of the same but less ever since updates made it more and more punishing to run solo.

ak_pvp

Vilestride wrote: »

lao wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

A key aspect of ESOs AVA style combat, but the way they are currently is fun for no one. Unkillable balls of idiots who have to think of nothing just spam attacks, if they die, no matter. They get rezzed instantly. Anything that can combat zergs is taken away too. Dynamic ultimate, nerfed. Blazing shield builds, nerfed. (The fact that they dealt near no damage without being hit meant it was balanced) Proxy, nerfed. (Fair) Even block builds who can really only do damage when hit on with multiple targets get nerfed.

What I would change:

• Readd a lesser form of dynamic ultimate. On top of the current ult gen we have now. This won't be too OP, but will still help.
• Buff and add more abilities/sets that scale well against multiple targets. Things like proxy, blazing, seventh and fury. Things like shimmering/wings should be per person. General stuff to not be streamrolled.
• Remove all AoE caps completely, aside from effects that have low targets purposefully. (Jabs extra st damage and shalk st stun.) Things like encase or permafrost should damage and stun anyone able to be stunned within the range, whether its 1 or 100 people.
• Make rezzing more difficult. When rezzing in PvP there should be a cost. maybe health, ulti or something? And those who have been rezzed shouldn't be able to res themselves for 1min. This would less affect coordinated groups, more large masses who can just shrug off any death.
• Limit healing to two people in PvP. How this would work. When healed, it'd assign two healers to a player for x seconds, (yourself not included) and for that X seconds, you can only be healed by yourself or two healers. This won't affect small groups, and healers can still heal multiple players, just bigger groups can't stack them and heal through everything. Players would have to look out for there own health bar a little more. PvP only Maybe even reduce all external healing. So anything not healed by themselves is reduced. However for this the achievements will have to be changed.
• Nerf abilities/sets that allow zergs to take no damage/Xv1 hard. Soul assault, snipe spam, earth gore, the ability to camp high up and spam ranged trash without fear, (Chains and gapclosers outside of keeps should take you to them/vice versa.)
• EDIT: Limiting snares to a maj/min system. Stam warden can deal with it, but other classes have to sacrifice a lot and it just sucks. Break free? Snared 70% and zerged down.

On snipe spam, i'd make it have to be aimed, like a long, narrow soul assault, but remove the cast time and be faster/unblockable if it hits and do more damage at range, so it would require skill to use, but able to work as a spammable and be very damaging.

you´re taking the wrong approach to deal with this. your treating symptoms but ignore the root of the problem. cyrodiil zone design is complete trash. objective based pvp is trash. get rid of all those keeps or make them completely irrelevant to pvp. change group cap to 8 ppl max and make anyone beeing hit by more than 8 ppl automatically be worth 0 ap.

the way an open world pvp zone is meant to work is a ton of small groups roaming around looking for competitive fights between each other while respecting each others fights and not add on each other when a fight is already in progress.

instead we get a giant cluster**** cos every single person on the map gets tunnelled into the same location cos some clueless amateur at ZOS thought objective based pvp would be great. its not. it never was. it never will be. just get rid of it completely finally and turn cyrodiil into a highly competitive pvp arena as it should have been from the very beginning.

If you want ESO to pretty much fundementally be a different game..... Why don't you just play a different game. Keep seiges and AvAvA is what we signed up for.

The game description may as well have said zerg v zerg and yet you bought it.....

Play how you want? Sure you have that freedom. They never promised it'd be easy or that you wouldn't get outnumbered by the large groups they did specifically say there would be.

Everything I just read from your post sounds like a guy complaining he hates hamburgers after just buying a happy meal.

I agree with the sentiment that removing avava would kill it. I'm more of the "add more sub objectives to space people out."

But that doesn't mean the game says "run in a Laggy zergy mess against other zergs between keeps and if you want to play any other way get ***. "

No, it's an open world PvP that should encourage skillful objective based play between groups of all sizes without penalising you for not having enough players.

Vilestride

ak_pvp wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

lao wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

A key aspect of ESOs AVA style combat, but the way they are currently is fun for no one. Unkillable balls of idiots who have to think of nothing just spam attacks, if they die, no matter. They get rezzed instantly. Anything that can combat zergs is taken away too. Dynamic ultimate, nerfed. Blazing shield builds, nerfed. (The fact that they dealt near no damage without being hit meant it was balanced) Proxy, nerfed. (Fair) Even block builds who can really only do damage when hit on with multiple targets get nerfed.

What I would change:

• Readd a lesser form of dynamic ultimate. On top of the current ult gen we have now. This won't be too OP, but will still help.
• Buff and add more abilities/sets that scale well against multiple targets. Things like proxy, blazing, seventh and fury. Things like shimmering/wings should be per person. General stuff to not be streamrolled.
• Remove all AoE caps completely, aside from effects that have low targets purposefully. (Jabs extra st damage and shalk st stun.) Things like encase or permafrost should damage and stun anyone able to be stunned within the range, whether its 1 or 100 people.
• Make rezzing more difficult. When rezzing in PvP there should be a cost. maybe health, ulti or something? And those who have been rezzed shouldn't be able to res themselves for 1min. This would less affect coordinated groups, more large masses who can just shrug off any death.
• Limit healing to two people in PvP. How this would work. When healed, it'd assign two healers to a player for x seconds, (yourself not included) and for that X seconds, you can only be healed by yourself or two healers. This won't affect small groups, and healers can still heal multiple players, just bigger groups can't stack them and heal through everything. Players would have to look out for there own health bar a little more. PvP only Maybe even reduce all external healing. So anything not healed by themselves is reduced. However for this the achievements will have to be changed.
• Nerf abilities/sets that allow zergs to take no damage/Xv1 hard. Soul assault, snipe spam, earth gore, the ability to camp high up and spam ranged trash without fear, (Chains and gapclosers outside of keeps should take you to them/vice versa.)
• EDIT: Limiting snares to a maj/min system. Stam warden can deal with it, but other classes have to sacrifice a lot and it just sucks. Break free? Snared 70% and zerged down.

On snipe spam, i'd make it have to be aimed, like a long, narrow soul assault, but remove the cast time and be faster/unblockable if it hits and do more damage at range, so it would require skill to use, but able to work as a spammable and be very damaging.

you´re taking the wrong approach to deal with this. your treating symptoms but ignore the root of the problem. cyrodiil zone design is complete trash. objective based pvp is trash. get rid of all those keeps or make them completely irrelevant to pvp. change group cap to 8 ppl max and make anyone beeing hit by more than 8 ppl automatically be worth 0 ap.

the way an open world pvp zone is meant to work is a ton of small groups roaming around looking for competitive fights between each other while respecting each others fights and not add on each other when a fight is already in progress.

instead we get a giant cluster**** cos every single person on the map gets tunnelled into the same location cos some clueless amateur at ZOS thought objective based pvp would be great. its not. it never was. it never will be. just get rid of it completely finally and turn cyrodiil into a highly competitive pvp arena as it should have been from the very beginning.

If you want ESO to pretty much fundementally be a different game..... Why don't you just play a different game. Keep seiges and AvAvA is what we signed up for.

The game description may as well have said zerg v zerg and yet you bought it.....

Play how you want? Sure you have that freedom. They never promised it'd be easy or that you wouldn't get outnumbered by the large groups they did specifically say there would be.

Everything I just read from your post sounds like a guy complaining he hates hamburgers after just buying a happy meal.

I agree with the sentiment that removing avava would kill it. I'm more of the "add more sub objectives to space people out."

But that doesn't mean the game says "run in a Laggy zergy mess against other zergs between keeps and if you want to play any other way get ***. "

No, it's an open world PvP that should encourage skillful objective based play between groups of all sizes without penalising you for not having enough players.

I 100% agree with what you are saying about objectives and that there should be a balance between the objectives intended for different size groups. I believe this was originally what ZOS envisioned. I also conceed that the 2 are no longer distinguished from one another and that they should be.

I just don't agree with the removal of objectives entirely as you did suggest.

WuffyCerulei

My buddies in pvp mainly say that Snipe and morphs are a huge pain since that it hits so hard from a distance, and that the aoe caps need to be removed to help deal with the zergs.

VaranisArano

lao wrote: »

you´re taking the wrong approach to deal with this. your treating symptoms but ignore the root of the problem. cyrodiil zone design is complete trash. objective based pvp is trash. get rid of all those keeps or make them completely irrelevant to pvp. change group cap to 8 ppl max and make anyone beeing hit by more than 8 ppl automatically be worth 0 ap.

the way an open world pvp zone is meant to work is a ton of small groups roaming around looking for competitive fights between each other while respecting each others fights and not add on each other when a fight is already in progress.

instead we get a giant cluster**** cos every single person on the map gets tunnelled into the same location cos some clueless amateur at ZOS thought objective based pvp would be great. its not. it never was. it never will be. just get rid of it completely finally and turn cyrodiil into a highly competitive pvp arena as it should have been from the very beginning.

This sounds like an excellent new zone to add to the game, a free-for all PVP zone.

However, just because you don't enjoy objective based PVP in a zone designed for groups of 8-24 players but supporting everything from solo players, small groups, organized raids, gankers, bombers, zergs, faction stacks, AP farming, Alessia bridge farming, remember the Chalamo, scroll runs, and emp pushes, doesn't mean there aren't players who do.

Don't destroy Cyrodiil. Make something new and if players like it better, they'll come.

A_G_G_R_O

I only hate when my faction zergs, because they Zerg deep and kill maps

technohic

I have finally figured out after watching groups I’m in chase smaller numbers around a resource tower as well as being in the smaller group on my magblade after the rest of my group being zerged down and just not releasing while I pop out of stealth just enough to keep their interest: you can really waste their time. They just hate seeing 1 guy get away.

Guilty of this myself but have started to figure it out. Now I need to learn to string them out and start picking them off 1 at a time.

Barbaran

all they would have to do is do an AP cap based on how many team mates arw in direct proximity to you.
make the proximity just over the size of a keep, after 10 make it 90% ap you gain, at 15 85%, 24@ 80%, anything over 24 is 20%.
i bet you zergs break up and try to spread through rhe map if they did that

IxSTALKERxI

I agree that there should be some changes made but I don't agree with all the changes suggested. Here is my list:

-Reduce maximum group size to 18.
-Reduce healing done to players you are not grouped with by 25%. When in a group of 6 or larger, healing done to players outside of group and healing received from players outside of group is reduced by 25%?
-Remove damage AoE caps.

AoE cap change may require nerfs of other things. I would reduce EoTS radius to 8m and Reduce vicious death tooltip by 25% to help compensate.

-Reduce O'tick values by 33%.
-Nerf Earthgore, either make the heal single target instead of AoE, or make it not remove enemy ultimate's.
-Revert retreating maneuvers change so that it only gets removed from doing damage but not healing allies - Cap the ability to 6 targets instead.

These changes alone would have a large impact in my opinion, and organised large scale pvp will still be viable with these changes.

Joy_Division

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

-Reduce healing done to players you are not grouped with by 25%.

I don't understand why this is such a popular suggestion - almost always offered by people who don't heal.

You want to give these stack on ground ball groups even more mechanics that favor them? How exactly does this incentivizing people form not being a zergbad?

Or is Cyrodiil just full of DPS who get indignant that there are two other roles, tanks and healers, that counter their primary function?

Xvorg

Xsorus wrote: »

Buff Prox Det back to being non *** mode and that'd go a long way.

They nerfed Prox Det pretty heavily, then proceeded to add in Destro Ult which benefits Zergs more then small groups.

I would buff inevitable deto instead of proxi. Then you have an option to spread the zerg

VaranisArano

Joy_Division wrote: »

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

-Reduce healing done to players you are not grouped with by 25%.

I don't understand why this is such a popular suggestion - almost always offered by people who don't heal.

You want to give these stack on ground ball groups even more mechanics that favor them? How exactly does this incentivizing people form not being a zergbad?

Or is Cyrodiil just full of DPS who get indignant that there are two other roles, tanks and healers, that counter their primary function?

Right? I guess I won't bother to solo zerg surf anymore when I'm tired of working hard to defend and take keeps. I'll just group up in a PUG raid and zerg surf that way. My heals matter!

And this suggestion would do absolutely zilch to the organized raid I run with. Oh, wait, it would make our less organized opponents more squishy. So we can dominate the field even more? To paraphrase Inigo Montoya, "I don't think this will have the effect you think it will."

IxSTALKERxI

Joy_Division wrote: »

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

-Reduce healing done to players you are not grouped with by 25%.

I don't understand why this is such a popular suggestion - almost always offered by people who don't heal.

You want to give these stack on ground ball groups even more mechanics that favor them? How exactly does this incentivizing people form not being a zergbad?

Or is Cyrodiil just full of DPS who get indignant that there are two other roles, tanks and healers, that counter their primary function?

First of all, I have played a healer and many support roles. Heck I think I may have spent more hours in support roles than dps at this point. I don't know why you always take a stab at people like as if they are some 1vXer who is having a hard time executing their dawnbreaker combo.

Anyways, that aside. I'll try and explain reasoning. I can understand why this isn't the perfect solution - a small group of ungrouped players will have less healing from each other. They could form a group with each other though. The benefit outways this downside though imo. At the moment, multiple ball groups can stack on top of each other and benifit from each others heals. Also 50 ungrouped players can benifit from the full strength of heals from 50 people. I also suggested this change along side reducing the max group cap to 18 as well as removing aoe caps and nerfing earthgore. So overall the strength of both 'ball groups' and ungrouped zergs would both be reduced sort of downscaling the fights slightly. But yes, it would be at the expense of the rare occasion that there are 5 or so ungrouped players supporting each other with heals.

What I was trying to target with this is when around 40-50 DC faction stack storm through the front door of nikel and their health bars don't even move and it's not even a decent organised raid, it's literally just a mass of 50 people with loads of off-healing going off and maybe 1 organised group hidden in there somewhere.


Edit:

Ok how about this:

Healing done is reduced by 25% on players you aren't grouped with when you are already in a group of your own. That way solo players can heal other solo players. But a group of 18 players can't heal solo players who are surfing them as effectively. A group of 4 players can't heal a separate group of 4 players as effectively etc. My main issue is with guild/group stacking and zerg surfing.

VaranisArano

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Anyways, that aside. I'll try and explain reasoning. I can understand why this isn't the perfect solution - a small group of ungrouped players will have less healing from each other. They could form a group with each other though. The benefit outways this downside though imo. At the moment, multiple ball groups can stack on top of each other and benifit from each others heals. Also 50 ungrouped players can benifit from the full strength of heals from 50 people. I also suggested this change along side reducing the max group cap to 18 as well as removing aoe caps and nerfing earthgore. So overall the strength of both 'ball groups' and ungrouped zergs would both be reduced sort of downscaling the fights slightly. But yes, it would be at the expense of the rare occasion that there are 5 or so ungrouped players supporting each other with heals.

What I was trying to target with this is when around 40-50 DC faction stack storm through the front door of nikel and their health bars don't even move and it's not even a decent organised raid, it's literally just a mass of 50 people with loads of off-healing going off and maybe 1 organised group hidden in there somewhere.

So, group up or die, huh? This is going to separate the wheat from the chaff, as it were, making it much harder to be an ungrouped player or small group player in large battles and encouraging players to stick together, making organized groups even stronger in comparison to unorganized players.

I mean, as someone who plays in an organized raid, I'm not going to say no to what is effectively going to make it easier for my raid to dominate the battlefield, but I'm also wondering if that's what you were trying to cause. Because as much as I love dominating the battlefield, its not that much fun for the people I'm smashing with a raid to suddenly get that much weaker because they are getting less healing.

If I'm going to win, I'd prefer it be because my raid was the strongest, with the best tactics, who executed them the most effectively. Not because my less organized enemies took a massive nerf to their survivability.

IxSTALKERxI

VaranisArano wrote: »

If I'm going to win, I'd prefer it be because my raid was the strongest, with the best tactics, who executed them the most effectively. Not because my less organized enemies took a massive nerf to their survivability.

Not sure what this has to do with farming ungrouped players then, that doesn't really display that your raid is the strongest with the best tactics lol.

Anyways, I'd be happy with just the other changes on the list. Excluding the healing change part. It would be a nice start.

ak_pvp

My way of limiting healing is different. Instead of limiting a healer by some arbitrary number, it instead limits the healed by capping external healers to 2. So stacking is reduced.

IxSTALKERxI

ak_pvp wrote: »

My way of limiting healing is different. Instead of limiting a healer by some arbitrary number, it instead limits the healed by capping external healers to 2. So stacking is reduced.

Yeah this works, but I don't think you can do this as it will have a huge impact on pve.

They already did a pass on a lot of skills reducing them to 2 targets such as bol, funnel health. This gets added to the list of things like mutagen and ward ally etc.

Then the rest are capped at 6. Healing springs, ritual, earthgore, vigor, healing thicket, remembrance, cleanse etc. The thing is reducing these will have an impact on PVE. Also will mess with some healer/dps ratio group comps.

The part I find annoying is that heals go on the people who need it, even if they aren't in the same group. So like you could have a 16 man raid spamming heals - all 16 people have full impen, good positioning etc. and aren't taking much damage. Surfing on top of them though are like 15 people who are naked with 0 impen and all the healing springs heals go to them. Idk it's just annoying how the healing priority works inside faction stacks of multiple guilds and mass amounts of people surfing their way to the back flag for their O'tick. That's my main gripe when it comes to the topic of zerging. Like when I use the term zerg I'm usually talking about the faction stacks of 50+ people that send everyone to 500+ ping lol.

ak_pvp

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

My way of limiting healing is different. Instead of limiting a healer by some arbitrary number, it instead limits the healed by capping external healers to 2. So stacking is reduced.

Yeah this works, but I don't think you can do this as it will have a huge impact on pve.

They already did a pass on a lot of skills reducing them to 2 targets such as bol, funnel health. This gets added to the list of things like mutagen and ward ally etc.

Then the rest are capped at 6. Healing springs, ritual, earthgore, vigor, healing thicket, remembrance, cleanse etc. The thing is reducing these will have an impact on PVE. Also will mess with some healer/dps ratio group comps.

The part I find annoying is that heals go on the people who need it, even if they aren't in the same group. So like you could have a 16 man raid spamming heals - all 16 people have full impen, good positioning etc. and aren't taking much damage. Surfing on top of them though are like 15 people who are naked with 0 impen and all the healing springs heals go to them. Idk it's just annoying how the healing priority works inside faction stacks of multiple guilds and mass amounts of people surfing their way to the back flag for their O'tick. That's my main gripe when it comes to the topic of zerging. Like when I use the term zerg I'm usually talking about the faction stacks of 50+ people that send everyone to 500+ ping lol.

Generally a PvP only suggestion, maybe factored in to battle spirit. If it was pve then you'd be ruined by an odd vigor.

technohic

You guys keep taking this to a level where your fix would be worse than the problem.

VaranisArano

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

If I'm going to win, I'd prefer it be because my raid was the strongest, with the best tactics, who executed them the most effectively. Not because my less organized enemies took a massive nerf to their survivability.

Not sure what this has to do with farming ungrouped players then, that doesn't really display that your raid is the strongest with the best tactics lol.

Anyways, I'd be happy with just the other changes on the list. Excluding the healing change part. It would be a nice start.

Okay, then consider the time and place where you get raids + ungrouped players. Keep Captures and Defenses. Just like you described here:

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

What I was trying to target with this is when around 40-50 DC faction stack storm through the front door of nikel and their health bars don't even move and it's not even a decent organised raid, it's literally just a mass of 50 people with loads of off-healing going off and maybe 1 organised group hidden in there somewhere.

You just made it tons easier for my organized raid to dominate that fight. Farming has nothing to do with it. You just made the capabilities of an organized raid that much more effective and the ungrouped players so much easier to kill.

DHale

There is already a counter to Zergbad... eye of the potatoe and proximetry detonation with viscous death.

Joy_Division

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

-Reduce healing done to players you are not grouped with by 25%.

I don't understand why this is such a popular suggestion - almost always offered by people who don't heal.

You want to give these stack on ground ball groups even more mechanics that favor them? How exactly does this incentivizing people form not being a zergbad?

Or is Cyrodiil just full of DPS who get indignant that there are two other roles, tanks and healers, that counter their primary function?

First of all, I have played a healer and many support roles. Heck I think I may have spent more hours in support roles than dps at this point. I don't know why you always take a stab at people like as if they are some 1vXer who is having a hard time executing their dawnbreaker combo.

Anyways, that aside. I'll try and explain reasoning. I can understand why this isn't the perfect solution - a small group of ungrouped players will have less healing from each other. They could form a group with each other though. The benefit outways this downside though imo. At the moment, multiple ball groups can stack on top of each other and benifit from each others heals. Also 50 ungrouped players can benifit from the full strength of heals from 50 people. I also suggested this change along side reducing the max group cap to 18 as well as removing aoe caps and nerfing earthgore. So overall the strength of both 'ball groups' and ungrouped zergs would both be reduced sort of downscaling the fights slightly. But yes, it would be at the expense of the rare occasion that there are 5 or so ungrouped players supporting each other with heals.

What I was trying to target with this is when around 40-50 DC faction stack storm through the front door of nikel and their health bars don't even move and it's not even a decent organised raid, it's literally just a mass of 50 people with loads of off-healing going off and maybe 1 organised group hidden in there somewhere.


Edit:

Ok how about this:

Healing done is reduced by 25% on players you aren't grouped with when you are already in a group of your own. That way solo players can heal other solo players. But a group of 18 players can't heal solo players who are surfing them as effectively. A group of 4 players can't heal a separate group of 4 players as effectively etc. My main issue is with guild/group stacking and zerg surfing.

I always take a stab at people who advocated it because it was FENGRUSH and people who played like him who championed loud, hard, and raged for ZoS to nerf healing, which ZoS did, and now, does he even play the game? It was from that part of the community that these cries have come, and Zos has time and time again catered to that narrative and here we are, still asking for more healing nerfs. Every time people who hate healing get their wish, that just further sucks up what little life and soul that's left in our classes and it's eventually replaced by OP trash like Earth Gore, which becomes required to fulfill the function that our classes no longer have. People who hate healing are never satisfied.

I can't say I know your play routines, but most of the time I see you, you are in a group, whether you're supporting or doing whatever. Which is fine, I ran with VE for over a year. I respect your group and the contributions you have made to the game, from which I can remember is since basically forever. So don't take my stab the wrong way. But groups should not automatically be conferred advantages. That's unfair. Why do people get special benefits for running in a ball-group, or if that offends, a group at all? AoE caps, restrictive purges, restrictive rapid maneuvers, class passives only applying for group members, specific sets, no all of that isn't enough. Now people want to restrict healing to groups only? Do you not see what organized groups like Drac do to disorganized masses of Pugs? If anything it the groups that need a 25% healing reduction because the game;s mechanics are so stacked up in their favor to begin with. Even 16 good players stand zero chance, none, against Drac's 16.

What if I want to just heal folks and have no interest in stacking on crown? I'm basically told hey, get in a group. Or somehow I suffer a 25% reduction on what I do. Meanwhile some NB can put on her clever alchemist and VD and blow up masses of PuGs since they suffer no such penalty.

Yes multiple ball groups can stack. IMHO, because the existing mechanics already favor such "tactics" If these 50 DC are stacking at Nickel, how exactly is AD supposed to fight them? Cutting "pug" heals is putting the regular AD players who don't join a group at a huge disadvantage, forcing ball groups to be the only counter.

5 ungrouped players in not a rare occasion. In fact it's rather common. Or at least it's a common sight to players who don't group. Your proposal would make it such that is a situation where it's me and 4 randoms who run into a group and coordinated same sized group to not only suffer the disadvantages mentioned above and no voice coms, but stick us all with a major defile, that can be stacked with another major defile. You're so concerned about that DC raid stacking in a group of 50 you're basically telling everyone else to group up or suffer huge penalties.

I just assumed everyone play by the same rules and not include any more unnecessary calculations into the system.

As for as the -25% if you are group to players outside your group, well at least that doesn't screw players over who choose not to group. But more calculations and it's still favors the huge group. If group A shows up with 24, or even 18 with your proposal, why does my group of 8 and another friendly group of 8 should suffer mechanical disadvantages fighting them?

Everyone should fight by the same rules. No AoE CAPs. No special conditional bonuses just because you're in a group. No penalties just because someone is not in your group

Edit: I don;t mean to be snarky and apologize if I came off that way. I just think this issue is much more complicated than it often portrayed and I am loathe to see either more nerfs hitting any class or play-styles being put at a mechanic disadvantage.

ak_pvp

Joy_Division wrote: »

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

-Reduce healing done to players you are not grouped with by 25%.

I don't understand why this is such a popular suggestion - almost always offered by people who don't heal.

You want to give these stack on ground ball groups even more mechanics that favor them? How exactly does this incentivizing people form not being a zergbad?

Or is Cyrodiil just full of DPS who get indignant that there are two other roles, tanks and healers, that counter their primary function?

First of all, I have played a healer and many support roles. Heck I think I may have spent more hours in support roles than dps at this point. I don't know why you always take a stab at people like as if they are some 1vXer who is having a hard time executing their dawnbreaker combo.

Anyways, that aside. I'll try and explain reasoning. I can understand why this isn't the perfect solution - a small group of ungrouped players will have less healing from each other. They could form a group with each other though. The benefit outways this downside though imo. At the moment, multiple ball groups can stack on top of each other and benifit from each others heals. Also 50 ungrouped players can benifit from the full strength of heals from 50 people. I also suggested this change along side reducing the max group cap to 18 as well as removing aoe caps and nerfing earthgore. So overall the strength of both 'ball groups' and ungrouped zergs would both be reduced sort of downscaling the fights slightly. But yes, it would be at the expense of the rare occasion that there are 5 or so ungrouped players supporting each other with heals.

What I was trying to target with this is when around 40-50 DC faction stack storm through the front door of nikel and their health bars don't even move and it's not even a decent organised raid, it's literally just a mass of 50 people with loads of off-healing going off and maybe 1 organised group hidden in there somewhere.


Edit:

Ok how about this:

Healing done is reduced by 25% on players you aren't grouped with when you are already in a group of your own. That way solo players can heal other solo players. But a group of 18 players can't heal solo players who are surfing them as effectively. A group of 4 players can't heal a separate group of 4 players as effectively etc. My main issue is with guild/group stacking and zerg surfing.

I always take a stab at people who advocated it because it was FENGRUSH and people who played like him who championed loud, hard, and raged for ZoS to nerf healing, which ZoS did, and now he doesn't even play the game. It was from that part of the community that these cries have come, and Zos has time and time again catered to that narrative and here we are, still asking for more healing nerfs. Every time people who hate healing get their wish, that just further sucks up what little life and soul that's left in our classes and it's eventually replaced by OP trash like Earth Gore, which becomes required to fulfill the function that our classes no longer have. People who hate healing are never satisfied.

I can't say I know your play routines, but most of the time I see you, you are in a group, whether you're supporting or doing whatever. Which is fine, I ran with VE for over a year. I respect your group and the contributions you have made to the game, from which I can remember is since basically forever. So don't take my stab the wrong way. But groups should not automatically be conferred advantages. That's unfair. Why do people get special benefits for running in a ball-group, or if that offends, a group at all? AoE caps, restrictive purges, restrictive rapid maneuvers, class passives only applying for group members, specific sets, no all of that isn't enough. Now people want to restrict healing to groups only? Do you not see what organized groups like Drac do to disorganized masses of Pugs? If anything it the groups that need a 25% healing reduction because the game;s mechanics are so stacked up in their favor to begin with. Even 16 good players stand zero chance, none, against Drac's 16.

What if I want to just heal folks and have no interest in stacking on crown? I'm basically told hey, get in a group. Or somehow I suffer a 25% reduction on what I do. Meanwhile some NB can put on her clever alchemist and VD and blow up masses of PuGs since they suffer no such penalty.

Yes multiple ball groups can stack. IMHO, because the existing mechanics already favor such "tactics" If these 50 DC are stacking at Nickel, how exactly is AD supposed to fight them? Cutting "pug" heals is putting the regular AD players who don't join a group at a huge disadvantage, forcing ball groups to be the only counter.

5 ungrouped players in not a rare occasion. In fact it's rather common. Or at least it's a common sight to players who don't group. Your proposal would make it such that is a situation where it's me and 4 randoms who run into a group and coordinated same sized group to not only suffer the disadvantages mentioned above and no voice coms, but stick us all with a major defile, that can be stacked with another major defile. You're so concerned about that DC raid stacking in a group of 50 you're basically telling everyone else to group up or suffer huge penalties.

I just assumed everyone play by the same rules and not include any more unnecessary calculations into the system.

As for as the -25% if you are group to players outside your group, well at least that doesn't screw players over who choose not to group. But more calculations and it's still favors the huge group. If group A shows up with 24, or even 18 with your proposal, why does my group of 8 and another friendly group of 8 should suffer mechanical disadvantages fighting them?

Everyone should fight by the same rules. No AoE CAPs. No special conditional bonuses just because you're in a group. No penalties just because someone is not in your group

All this. I mean I am still pedaling my suggestion since it only affects heal stackers and not just killing healing all together. And with removal of AoE caps healers would be more valuable.