Everything needed to know about Bow/Bow in PVE - Updated for Stonethorn

exiars10

AFAIK (but SodanTok will answer better), Slimecraw is used in PvP for some builds.
If you are solo player like me do what I did and slot Camouflaged Hunter for Minor Berserk.
For group content, there is Combat Prayer, isn't it?

Ask yourself, what would you lose (other gear bonus) if you add Slimecraw? Remember, 8% is additive so in reality it's not 8% at all.

SodanTok

SkyIsTheLimit1206 wrote: »

@SodanTok

Just a quick question

For non-NBs without the Minor Berserk skill, can't they use Slimecraw Monster Set for the Minor Berserk? Is that viable?

as exiars10 pointed out. You will get the minor berserk buff from combat prayer so it is not worth it in most situations. The only one where I would say go for it is AS, since its nearly impossible for healer there to aim that skill at everyone

Lynx7386

Any thoughts on my concept poisonknight bow/bow build?
5x Morag tong (one bow)
5x swamp raider (one bow)
2x spawn of mephala

Back bar swamp raider and use flames of oblivion to proc it. All aoe abilities on back bar as well (noxious breath, acid spray, endless hail, flames of oblivion, Igneous weapons, corrosive armor).
Front bar: lethal arrow, poison injection, venomous claw, green dragon blood, expert hunter, toxic barrage.

Obviously not a meta or trials level setup but I think it could get by for most content

SodanTok

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Any thoughts on my concept poisonknight bow/bow build?
5x Morag tong (one bow)
5x swamp raider (one bow)
2x spawn of mephala

Back bar swamp raider and use flames of oblivion to proc it. All aoe abilities on back bar as well (noxious breath, acid spray, endless hail, flames of oblivion, Igneous weapons, corrosive armor).
Front bar: lethal arrow, poison injection, venomous claw, green dragon blood, expert hunter, toxic barrage.

Obviously not a meta or trials level setup but I think it could get by for most content

Morag tong is good. Even performs on pretty good level compared to other sets when you go for full poison setup. Spawn of Mephala is good too, except heavy attacking is not really good with bow.

But not sure about swamp raider. First I don't know how the proc works (if you can reliably keep it 100%)

And then, even if you play poison build, there is no reason to skip the very very good non poison abilities which are: endless hail, caltrops, trap, light attacks

Imo, just endless hail + light attacks (~30% of your DPS) make swamp raider barely better than hunding. If you really want to go full on the poison thing (meaning do everything for having poison, even if not the best) I would probably try something like Poisonous Serpent if you can

//edit:
I made some miscalculations. Firstly, endless hail will have much lesser DPS without VMA bow. Secondly, given that all my parses or test I ever did were with sets that just boost everything, my image of DPS % physical damage consists of would be slightly of too. With that in mind, swamp raider looks much better option now (when it comes to full poison). I would still pick rather hunding and VMA bow tho, even if playing full poison, because it makes almost no change (still same poison abilities), but gives insanely more dps.

Eirianbryn30

I've been nightblade, bow mostly, since I started. I really wish they would fix it so a bow /bow build is a little more respected. I'm glad I found this thread.

exiars10

Some news :
1) Week ago, I finally grinded to Undaunted 9…
2) And then I changed health glyph in Kra‘gh heavy helmet to stamina, and in belt from stamina to health. Now unbuffed I have 13k health and 31,1k stamina.
3) And two days ago, I finally researched nirnhoned (with a lot of woodworking research scrolls) and transmutated backbar bow to it.

EDIT
I'm testing some new gear. Wrong test results... Had to delete the rest of message :-/.
EDIT 2
Forgot attributes for calculation... Orginal message is correct after checking.

I found out two underrated (under radar) sets which could help fellow bow/bow solo players who don‘t have access to trial gear and unique bows. I used ESO Build Editor to compare stats before buying (the following gear is cheap anyway, and I have Agility anyway). So, new combo:
5x Hunding‘s Rage + 3x Unfathomable Darkness (armor) + 3x Vengeance Leech (jewelry) compared to 1x Kra‘gh + 5x Hunding‘s Rage + 5x Spriggan‘s Thorns both used with food. Findings:
+ effective weapon power is just ~1% lower
+ weapon critical is 5% higher
+ no need for expensive food (max health + stamina recovery) as cheap max health + max stamina is more than enough
+ higher health and stamina pool because of it.

Sustain is drastically better even you need to do killing blow. Yes, it‘s not VS but I still don‘t have time to farm it plus I really don‘t like trials :-/. Anyway, for overland content and killing group dungeon trash it‘s just fantastic. Obviosly bad against world bosses and has limited use against group dungeon‘s bosses but works great for those who have a lot od ads.

Then I changed Vengeance Leech to good ol‘ Agility jewelry and it‘s better then both previous combos but stamina sustain suffers in prolonged fights if not managed properly but effective weapon power is ~4-5% higher than Kra‘gh + Hunding + Spriggan combo.

I hope this is going to help somebody .

TL; DR
5x Hunding‘s Rage + 3x Unfathomable Darkness (armor) + 3x Vengeance Leech (jewelry) or Agility (jewelry) is the best combo for solo players who doesn't have access to trail gear and unique bows.
Choose jewelry depending on your stamina sustain management .

SodanTok

@exiars10 If sustain the issue for you still (hence the vengeance leech use), try pairing set like hunding (or spriggan) with set like bone pirate or kyne kiss.

Morgul667

My friend hit 33 or 35k dps with stam warden bow bow build the other day. Seems more or less ok now. Still slightly underperforming but okay. I mean its a warden anyway.

exiars10

I found this interesting video. It‘s pretty much fresh.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kCHc6swpgs

It‘s Nightblade bow/bow build with Kra‘gh + Asylum Bow + Swamp Raider + Poisonous Serpent sets.

I don‘t know what to think...
How much buffed up Toxic Barrage is actually worth? And Shadow Silk?
And whole build look like more oriented to PvP at least to me.

SodanTok

exiars10 wrote: »

I found this interesting video. It‘s pretty much fresh.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kCHc6swpgs

It‘s Nightblade bow/bow build with Kra‘gh + Asylum Bow + Swamp Raider + Poisonous Serpent sets.

I don‘t know what to think...
How much buffed up Toxic Barrage is actually worth? And Shadow Silk?
And whole build look like more oriented to PvP at least to me.

This is PVP oriented and more for fun. Something like swamp raider isnt worth it at all imo. Toxic Barrage is pretty meh but it can be good vs opponents you can stand and take their damage (so no sorcs no nightblades, no wardens,...)

exiars10

It's defenitely PvE build as he uses Arrow Barrage and Shadow Silk which are (borderline) useless in PvP. He even demostrated at dolmes (but at dolmens works almost everything anyway ).

I'm going to use Shadow Silk at Bangkorai dolmens' farming as a nice meme . I have a lot of unspend skills so why not and there are always a lot of players so synergy activation is guaranteed. Also, everybody and their mother farm bosses in Hew's Bane, so another usage .

Also, with some changes in abilities, it's could be potent sniper PvP build.

All in all, I like when people think outside of box (meta). I like his reasoning and it can be easily changed for personal preferences (abilities and gear).

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

exiars10 wrote: »

I found this interesting video. It‘s pretty much fresh.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kCHc6swpgs

It‘s Nightblade bow/bow build with Kra‘gh + Asylum Bow + Swamp Raider + Poisonous Serpent sets.

I don‘t know what to think...
How much buffed up Toxic Barrage is actually worth? And Shadow Silk?
And whole build look like more oriented to PvP at least to me.

It is funny that at one point in the video he is bragging about a 45k poison arrow. I hit a 47k in a twins fight on norm maw with spriggans/aglity/nirn master bow and valkyn on a bowden.

He also states he is not a math guy and would fail a basic fraction test. Not the most confidence building thing.

exiars10

Let's be honest - his theorycrafting is pretty good. His build needs just proper execution/rotation which wasn't well in his case :P.

My only real complain is Silk Shadow - just switch to Razor Caltrops and suddenly it's much better.

Anyway, the more people think outside of box, the better just like original author of this thread and then everybody else who posts and read it.

Also, his build with some tweaks is really OP in PvP. I'll post in sniper bow/bow thread about it.

SodanTok

exiars10 wrote: »

It's defenitely PvE build as he uses Arrow Barrage and Shadow Silk which are (borderline) useless in PvP. He even demostrated at dolmes (but at dolmens works almost everything anyway ).

I'm going to use Shadow Silk at Bangkorai dolmens' farming as a nice meme . I have a lot of unspend skills so why not and there are always a lot of players so synergy activation is guaranteed. Also, everybody and their mother farm bosses in Hew's Bane, so another usage .

Also, with some changes in abilities, it's could be potent sniper PvP build.

All in all, I like when people think outside of box (meta). I like his reasoning and it can be easily changed for personal preferences (abilities and gear).

Well neither asylum bow, poisonous serpent or swamp raider are good pve sets. Funnily enough his build would perform better defending flags in battle grounds.

But yeah its not like it is bad what he does. He put thoughts into it, which is the line that separates 1% of bow users from the 99%.

Shadow Silk is also pretty good skill, if it worked properly. Currently it requires 18m range to proc synergy, which does not happen in 99% of endgame fighting situations (unless some specific mechanic requires people to move away). If it had more sensible range, this skill would be imo must slot on any bow build (on those that have space)

exiars10

I started to permanentely use Shadow Silk (back bar) in group dungeons, too.

I don't know what is worse? 18 m range for synergy or pathetically low 4 m radius. If it only had 6m (half of Caltrops) radius, I wouldn't complain. Anyway, it got permanent place on my back bar instead of Swallow Souls which was sloted for passive when I use Vigor. At dolmens and Hew's Bane zone boss farming, people trigger it and it hits very high (obviously only if it was stamina DD player).

On the other thread, I wrote about Unfathomable Darkness set which I already use as 3x on bow/bow setup. I read crows crit and I bought jewelry last night (100 g each piece - beyond dirt cheap) to see it myself.

And indeed, crows defenitely crit. Crow damage is 4.671 in my case (purple gear) in gear tooltip, basic damage is at 4k and highest crit was 7,4k, and I am just CP400. I read they crit up to 8k. Crows trigger on any damage, and they are always up ("10%") in tightly spaced and packed group dungeons. I use it with 5x Hunding's Rage and 1x Kra'gh helm. At 12 m range, I look at crows as offensive shield .

exiars10

Some new info.

Shadow Silk actually crit which I admit didn't know... Last night in dungeons I saw crits in range 12-13k. Not bad at all and really usable in static fights. Also, I watched Gilliamtherogue's Undaunted video and he said that spiders (synergy) are pets, so they crit, too.

I had one of the best PUG dungeon run ever last night. Finally tank which used Aggressive Warnhorn (I can bet he wasn't DK tank) and healer who buffed us like crazy. There were a lot of synergies all over the place. Crows (Unfathomable Darkness) crited up to 7,9k. It was nut . I really hope this set never becomes meta so small minority can enjoy with it.

Speaking of @Gilliamtherogue, I watched his latest Nightblade video for DB patch. A lot of his explanations apply to bow/bow, too and he gave me some nice ideas. He's defenitely the best as he doesn't look at things as black-white.

He literally trashed Mechanical Acuity (over hyped meta hum ). Like OP added on top:

Mechanical Acuity is good set. But dont chase the meta. It does not suit bows very much.

Great set for parsing .

He also recommend Stormfist and even Spawn of Mephala (another mostly forgotten set) as Monster set which OP already recommend for bow/bow users so kudos to @SodanTok.

Why I like his new video even more?
He mentioned my personal favourite Repear's Mark ability if you can slot it for some situations.
Another possible important ability is Mirage. It was mentioned here on the first page, but I comletely forgot about it :-/. I'll run it instead of Vigor and see is it worth. After all, there is almost unused magicka pool so why not.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfRgKwnIJe4

P. S.
I bought game on 6.12. (after 7 days of free play) and after 3 months, I learned a lot and still learning.
This thread is golden and my favourite on the whole ESO forum .

SodanTok

Yes, Gilliamtherogue is very good at explaining many things that may not even be that much relevant for the top 1% players, but useful for the rest of us. Tho he did trashed Shadow Silk imo too much during PTS. I still think that ability would be almost must have on most stamina builds (if they had space for it) if the synergy could be reliably activated by everyone.

Eirianbryn30

What's everyone's thoughts on the Hawk eye set?

exiars10

IMO even if you slot every possible Bow ability, it's not worth in PvE as AFAIK added 5% bow damage is additive. SodanTok knows for sure if that is correct. What other proven set it can replace in PvE? I can't think of any. Just compare it to Hunding's Rage which is golden standard set for stamina DD. It's meh.

In PvP it's hit and more a miss. From my theorycrafting in ESO Build Editor this set has very limited usage in PvP. Marksman's Crest + several other stamina sets is outright superior combo for sniper ganking play.

SodanTok

Eirianbryn30 wrote: »

What's everyone's thoughts on the Hawk eye set?

Hawk eye is pretty meh for everything. Just compare the 5% more damage with BOW (only) abilities to something like Vicious Ophidian (I know it is trial set so it is obviously better and harder to get) where you have 5% to ALL damage in dungeons/trial and it is just 3 pieces.

Should give you clear picture how much bad that is compared to other sets.

JobooAGS

So with regards to your post about warden bear not being buffed by master bow, warden bow dps should be in a better spot?

SodanTok

JobooAGS wrote: »

So with regards to your post about warden bear not being buffed by master bow, warden bow dps should be in a better spot?

It wouldnt really be seen as much in the parse, since it is still just 300 weapon damage on only bear attacks. Probably like 1% more DPS in sustained fight. But it would slightly more % when we talk the special cases like lucky crits on bear ulti. Many execute crits on bear ulti. Even matters in some duel situation using bear and master bow.

Vythri

@SodanTok

I may have missed it, but did you ever determine the DPS difference between using Cutting Dive and Focused Aim?

I'd love to be able to use Cutting Dive just from a stylistic point of view, and for the fact that its NOT SNIPE. If it's going to severely hamper my damage output though, then I won't bother.

SodanTok

Vythri wrote: »

@SodanTok

I may have missed it, but did you ever determine the DPS difference between using Cutting Dive and Focused Aim?

I'd love to be able to use Cutting Dive just from a stylistic point of view, and for the fact that its NOT SNIPE. If it's going to severely hamper my damage output though, then I won't bother.

Hm I thought I posted them here but apparently I did not. Unfortunately I haven't tested lethal arrow vs cutting dive (to not pollute the result with minor fracture), but in pre CWC patch tests focused aim (replacing cutting dive) build performed in static fights (so dummy) 2k dps better than cutting dive. So the difference is there and is huge, but with presence of minor fracture from templar for example and in fights that force you to follow mechanics or move around (so less opportunities to cast snipe or less time simply to channel) it will significantly decrease to a point where I still prefer cutting dive over snipe (but slot focused aim for fights without stamplar)

Amdar_Godkiller

Hmmm.

I don't think know if that rotation is ideal for warden bow/bow

Try SA on both bars

Next to it slot acid spray

On the back bar next to it slot Tangled Webs from the Undaunted skill line



You're rotation minus LA/HA weaving will simply be



Netch, Lotus,


Caltrops, Subterranean, Acid Spray, Endless Hail

Subterranean, Tangled Webs, Lightweight Trap


Subterranean, Acid Spray, Poison Injection

Subterranean, Tangled Webs, Endless Hail,



Caltrops (Before every fourth Subterranean), Subterranean, Acid Spray, Lightweight Trap

Subterranean, Tangled Webs, Poison Injection, Lotus (after every other Poison Injection)


Subterranean, Acid Spray, EH

SA, TW, Trap




Netch (Before every other Caltrops)


Caltrops, SA, AS, PI

SA, TW, EH

SA, AS, Trap

SA, TW, PI, Lotus





Any spammable will be a major DPS loss for Warden.

The advantage of bow/bow for them, is that it actually allows theme to fit all of their skills in perfectly

SodanTok

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Hmmm.

I don't think know if that rotation is ideal for warden bow/bow

Try SA on both bars

Next to it slot acid spray

On the back bar next to it slot Tangled Webs from the Undaunted skill line



You're rotation minus LA/HA weaving will simply be



Netch, Lotus,


Caltrops, Subterranean, Acid Spray, Endless Hail

Subterranean, Tangled Webs, Lightweight Trap


Subterranean, Acid Spray, Poison Injection

Subterranean, Tangled Webs, Endless Hail,



Caltrops (Before every fourth Subterranean), Subterranean, Acid Spray, Lightweight Trap

Subterranean, Tangled Webs, Poison Injection, Lotus (after every other Poison Injection)


Subterranean, Acid Spray, EH

SA, TW, Trap




Netch (Before every other Caltrops)


Caltrops, SA, AS, PI

SA, TW, EH

SA, AS, Trap

SA, TW, PI, Lotus





Any spammable will be a major DPS loss for Warden.

The advantage of bow/bow for them, is that it actually allows theme to fit all of their skills in perfectly

I will look into it. But ignoring Tangled web (shadow silk) as I dont consider it usable skill with the synergy limitation currently, I tested many complex rotations and in general they are rarely really worth it. For example on redguard setup, you need to spend considerable time on frontbar (~7 sec) to guarantee 2 adrenaline rush procs. Adding sub assault on backbar also removes the flex spot open for vigor or other skills to help survivability (which bow/bow is lacking).
But I would agree rotation that keeps constant spam of SA (SA LA skill LA skill LA SA or SA HA skill LA SA) performs well on dummy, I just found it very resource draining. Most notably when Snipe rotation generally outperforms either damage wise or sustain wise any other I tried.

Eirianbryn30

Ok this mightve been answered already, what's the ideal trait I'm looking for with dropped gear? Or crafted?

Thanks

SodanTok

Eirianbryn30 wrote: »

Ok this mightve been answered already, what's the ideal trait I'm looking for with dropped gear? Or crafted?

Thanks

As in any other stamDD build, divines on armor, nirn on backbar weapon, robus on jewelry. And frontbar bow infused (prefered) or nirn

UM_xReb

So, with the Dragonbones update, what do you think the optimal rotation would be for Warden?

SodanTok

UM_xReb wrote: »

So, with the Dragonbones update, what do you think the optimal rotation would be for Warden?

Generally the same, but I will better answer for you (hopefully) soon. Once I get time to some proper testing. The current rotation is very easy to perform in all situations and performs good. Rotation with more subs or snipes will be slightly more difficult but that will al be explained later. I will tag you in the post so you dont miss it