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Everything needed to know about Bow/Bow in PVE - Updated for Stonethorn

  • JobooAGS
    JobooAGS
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    SodanTok wrote: »
    krachall wrote: »
    As much as I'd like bow/bow to work, there are two main problems. The first is pretty basic and clear: lack of a good stamina ranged spammable. Snipe's agonizingly long cycle makes it a poor choice and everything else is magicka based if it's ranged.

    The second problem is the same problem faced by every other non-meta build: there's just no place for it.

    Content is either so easy (normal non-DLC, vet non-DLC, and normal DLC) that virtually any build (or no real build at all will work) or hard enough (vet DLCs, vet trials) that someone doing suboptimal DPS is either a detriment to the group or being carried by someone with over-optimal DPS.

    It's a shame that the bow isn't the stamina equivalent to the staff. I'm personally tired of entering a trial and seeing 10 staff users, a tank, and me. This game really has become Elder Staves Online.

    Well there is obv cutting dive (and sub assault) on warden. The snipe is also great spammable. I know people dislike it, but thats because they have problem getting used to it. Properly weaved snipe performs better than any spammable in the game. And to this day, the main drawback of it was the 1s long 50% self snare, which got reduced to 25%. Which is putting it very close to all other melee spammables with cast/channel time (flurry, heavy attacks, wrecking blow on 2H builds) that have no speed reduction.

    But yes, there is no place for bow/bow, because they never bring anything new. Really, the only place for bow/bow in trials is if you are bringing more DPS than other stamina setups. Which happens only in less serious vet trial groups. Or you are bringing enough not to be detrimental, which could happen in slightly more serious groups, but still not for the best. I can easily see situations where having 20% less DPS, but constantly can perform as good as that melee setup that has to move a lot (vAS kinda comes in mind).
    Did not have chance to do vAS on bow build, since I only run bear warden currently, and bear simply does not work in vAS (and losing it is such big dps loss, that i dont bother)

    perhaps swapping snipe and rapid fire making them an ult and spammable respectively and making one of the morphs for the snipe ult tie into group support as while a double bow build so it is not like a buff for stam melee
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  • Ollowaiin2
    Ollowaiin2
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    Please don't missunderstand me. It's all about endgame raiding. I theoratically want to run 8 two weapons/bow meta stam DDs in every possible situation and only use BowBow when needed. I see no benefit in playing magicka anymore.

    Edit:
    @JobooAGS, can we please talk about the present (or upcoming) patch in order to stay realistic and a little productive?
    Edited by Ollowaiin2 on January 27, 2018 11:18PM
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  • SodanTok
    SodanTok
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    Ollowaiin2 wrote: »
    Please don't missunderstand me. It's all about endgame raiding. I theoratically want to run 8 two weapons/bow meta stam DDs in every possible situation and only use BowBow when needed. I see no benefit in playing magicka anymore.

    In that case, it could be very viable choice. If two healers are enough to supply all off balance possible (which wont be much :D ), I can see something like vAA being done fast with many stam builds with DW that switch to bow on mage. The mage alone may go slightly slower than than with more magicka DD, but rest of the trial would go probably much faster.

    I have no idea what will be the strength of magicka builds next patch, since their dummy parses are always boosted by raid buffs and nobody really really serious bothered to perform really really serious raid buffed DPS test on bow build. At least I am not unaware of any. Nor capable of testing one.
    Edited by SodanTok on January 27, 2018 11:20PM
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  • Ollowaiin2
    Ollowaiin2
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    This tactic is not only for vAA. It could ne viable for every trial except vAS
    SodanTok wrote: »

    In that case, it could be very viable choice. If two healers are enough to supply all off balance possible (which wont be much :D ), I can see something like vAA being done fast with many stam builds with DW that switch to bow on mage. The mage alone may go slightly slower than than with more magicka DD, but rest of the trial would go probably much faster.

    I have no idea what will be the strength of magicka builds next patch, since their dummy parses are always boosted by raid buffs and nobody really really serious bothered to perform really really serious raid buffed DPS test on bow build. At least I am not unaware of any.

    I guess the fight may be even faster, since we give the support sets to the BowBow rangers and boost the dps of the melee camp that way.
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  • SodanTok
    SodanTok
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    Ollowaiin2 wrote: »
    This tactic is not only for vAA. It could ne viable for every trial except vAS
    SodanTok wrote: »

    In that case, it could be very viable choice. If two healers are enough to supply all off balance possible (which wont be much :D ), I can see something like vAA being done fast with many stam builds with DW that switch to bow on mage. The mage alone may go slightly slower than than with more magicka DD, but rest of the trial would go probably much faster.

    I have no idea what will be the strength of magicka builds next patch, since their dummy parses are always boosted by raid buffs and nobody really really serious bothered to perform really really serious raid buffed DPS test on bow build. At least I am not unaware of any.

    I guess the fight may be even faster, since we give the support sets to the BowBow rangers and boost the dps of the melee camp that way.

    The issue of not having shield or blade cloak is still pretty much present, but yeah I am starting to see it. It definitely sounds interesting, and whats more, viable at the top end.

    Whats more, most of these situations are benefiting from standing in range (well, because that is also the reason to require ranged dd), so other stuff, like long shot passive come in equation too. And someone like stamNB, from good range really performs great.
    Edited by SodanTok on January 27, 2018 11:35PM
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  • Ollowaiin2
    Ollowaiin2
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    SodanTok wrote: »

    The issue of not having shield or blade cloak is still pretty much present, but yeah I am starting to see it. It definitely sounds interesting, and whats more, viable at the top end.

    Whats more, most of these situations are benefiting from standing in range (well, because that is also the reason to require ranged dd), so other stuff, like long shot passive come in equation too. And someone like stamNB, from good range really performs great.

    Echoing Vigor is always an option to stay alive and you still have your friendly neighbourhood healers.
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  • JobooAGS
    JobooAGS
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    Ollowaiin2 wrote: »
    Please don't missunderstand me. It's all about endgame raiding. I theoratically want to run 8 two weapons/bow meta stam DDs in every possible situation and only use BowBow when needed. I see no benefit in playing magicka anymore.

    Edit:
    @JobooAGS, can we please talk about the present (or upcoming) patch in order to stay realistic and a little productive?

    I was just throwing a random idea that can be made in a future patch, sorry
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  • Ollowaiin2
    Ollowaiin2
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    I'm sorry, I've red too many negative comments lately blaming ZOS for everything...
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  • JobooAGS
    JobooAGS
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    Ollowaiin2 wrote: »
    I'm sorry, I've red too many negative comments lately blaming ZOS for everything...

    Though if rapid fire were to be made a spammable, and snipe an ult I wonder how they would be...
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  • DoctorESO
    DoctorESO
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    .
    Edited by DoctorESO on September 23, 2018 1:20AM
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  • JobooAGS
    JobooAGS
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    DoctorESO wrote: »
    The negative sentiment about bow users comes from all the light attack and snipe spammers. Pew, pew, pew, pew, pew, pew, pew...

    took a bowblade once in a pugged vet dungeon, got kicked for "bad dps" meanwhile 1, I was pulling my weight for dps, while doing mechanics, resing, and throwing down self heals as the healer just did jabs and maybe a healing ward or bol,( I was pulling about 75-80+% of the group dps.) 2 consequently the other dps was literally just light attacking and maybe throwing a steel tornado or rapid strikes here and there. If the other dps were to pull even 3/4 of what I pulled, we would have been fine. Really shows the resentment towards bow builds
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  • exiars10
    exiars10
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    As promised – report after 7 days.

    I play two months (360 hours in game). My character is currently CP 335. My ESO Plus run out so I don‘t have access to transmutation station and DLC dungeons. Attributes are 7 points in health and everything else into stamina. If you ask me why – let just say that I have bad habit of jumping from cliffs and surviving with just several hundreds health. Bosmer jumping master race :). Unbuffed has ~12,5 k health and ~29,6 k stamina. For food I craft and use Braised Rabbit with Spring Vegetables.

    I don‘t use crafted poisons for PvE as they are waste of my precious mats in my case. I use them for PvP only. If somebody is interested Drain Health Poison IX (Fleshfly Larva + Nightshade + Stickhorn) is absolute cancer ;).
    And I don‘t use Essence of Weapon Power but I will defenitely use them in the stage II of veteran group dungeons.

    Gear setup
    Kra‘gh's heavy monster helmet (training)
    5x Hunding‘s Rage (4x divine medium armor + 2x bows (infused + poison / sharpened + disease)
    5x Spriggan‘s Thorns (2x divine medium armor + 3x jewelry)
    Everything is purple except golden bows.

    Skills
    1. Lethal Arrow – Acid Spray – Leeching Strikes – Relentless Focus – Rearming Trap / Flawless Dawnbreaker
    2. Poison Injection – Endless Hail – Resolving Vigor – Killer‘s Blade – Razor Caltrops / Ballista

    I broke my experience into three categories.
    Bad
    Build is mostly great except in cramped space so avoiding cornered is priority. There are some public and group dungeons where it can be problematic. Acid Spray is great for the fast killing mob in those situations but that bring us to the main problem – stamina sustain. I admit that I regularly use Flawless Dawnbreaker into huge mob packs if I get overwhelmed. It rarely happens but happen :).

    Stamina sustain is really a problem in veteran dungeons against huge mob packs with mini bosses. I use Essence of Stamina potions and they help enough to finish stage. It‘s really sad how bow heavy attacks are just outright terrible...

    Neutral
    This build is on par for farming as is classical DW/bow combo. I have several farming places and on some is bow/bow combo faster for killing and on the others DW/bow so in the end it‘s the same.

    Good
    Normal group dungeons are blast. I regularly get paired with 20-40 level players and I carry hard even with new tank and healer players. Zero problems.
    Veteran group dungeons are completely different beast. I already typed about stamina sustain. I also carried low CP player and played with many 600+ CP players. Nobody complained I use 2x bow. I also played several times with only two players (waiting fourth to load) and we did just fine without death as long as there is compentent healer or tank in group. I commended several players because there is epidemy of fake tanks and healers. I‘m currently clearing veteran dungeons for achievements for Undaunted skill line.
    I also started clearing and farming world bosses. I can‘t do it alone but again as long as I have one player (preferably healer or tank) beside me, I can do my job pretty well.

    In the end, my personal observation after learning so much – using bow/bow is hard and I saw these players die against world boses and in cramped public dungeons (Vile Manse says hi ;)).


    @SodanTok

    I want to thank you again for this thread and your suggestions B).

    I hope this is my last question – I seriously think to change Spriggan‘s set to the Morag Tong (2x armor + 3x jewelry). Purple Morag Tong parts are dirt cheap to buy and I can use them in PvP, too. I would lose ~1.100 stamina and 3.450 physical penetration but would gain weapon and poison damage. As sniper and spray spammer it looks better on paper.
    Again, no DLC group dungeons and no trials (both normal and veteran).
    Edited by exiars10 on February 1, 2018 2:14PM
    I don't play ESO since 15.06. because Cyrodiil is broken since Summerset (PvE isn't much better, too)...

    Aldmeri Dominion (PC Europe via Steam)

    The cowardly Wood Elves are best noted for their unwillingness to engage in a face-to-face attack; a Bosmer will strike at you from every side except the front. You won't cross swords with a Bosmer, but you might catch an arrow in the throat. Be wary in forests and jungles, and watch your back.
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  • SodanTok
    SodanTok
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    exiars10 wrote: »
    As promised – report after 7 days.

    I play two months (360 hours in game). My character is currently CP 335. My ESO Plus run out so I don‘t have access to transmutation station and DLC dungeons. Attributes are 7 points in health and everything else into stamina. If you ask me why – let just say that I have bad habit of jumping from cliffs and surviving with just several hundreds health. Bosmer jumping master race :). Unbuffed has ~12,5 k health and ~29,6 k stamina. For food I craft and use Braised Rabbit with Spring Vegetables.

    I don‘t use crafted poisons for PvE as they are waste of my precious mats in my case. I use them for PvP only. If somebody is interested Drain Health Poison IX (Fleshfly Larva + Nightshade + Stickhorn) is absolute cancer ;).
    And I don‘t use Essence of Weapon Power but I will defenitely use them in the stage II of veteran group dungeons.

    Gear setup
    Kra‘gh's heavy monster helmet (training)
    5x Hunding‘s Rage (4x divine medium armor + 2x bows (infused + poison / sharpened + disease)
    5x Spriggan‘s Thorns (2x divine medium armor + 3x jewelry)
    Everything is purple except golden bows.

    Skills
    1. Lethal Arrow – Acid Spray – Leeching Strikes – Relentless Focus – Rearming Trap / Flawless Dawnbreaker
    2. Poison Injection – Endless Hail – Resolving Vigor – Killer‘s Blade – Razor Caltrops / Ballista

    I broke my experience into three categories.
    Bad
    Build is mostly great except in cramped space so avoiding cornered is priority. There are some public and group dungeons where it can be problematic. Acid Spray is great for the fast killing mob in those situations but that bring us to the main problem – stamina sustain. I admit that I regularly use Flawless Dawnbreaker into huge mob packs if I get overwhelmed. It rarely happens but happen :).

    Stamina sustain is really a problem in veteran dungeons against huge mob packs with mini bosses. I use Essence of Stamina potions and they help enough to finish stage. It‘s really sad how bow heavy attacks are just outright terrible...

    Neutral
    This build is on par for farming as is classical DW/bow combo. I have several farming places and on some is bow/bow combo faster for killing and on the others DW/bow so in the end it‘s the same.

    Good
    Normal group dungeons are blast. I regularly get paired with 20-40 level players and I carry hard even with new tank and healer players. Zero problems.
    Veteran group dungeons are completely different beast. I already typed about stamina sustain. I also carried low CP player and played with many 600+ CP players. Nobody complained I use 2x bow. I also played several times with only two players (waiting fourth to load) and we did just fine without death as long as there is compentent healer or tank in group. I commended several players because there is epidemy of fake tanks and healers. I‘m currently clearing veteran dungeons for achievements for Undaunted skill line.
    I also started clearing and farming world bosses. I can‘t do it alone but again as long as I have one player (preferably healer or tank) beside me, I can do my job pretty well.

    In the end, my personal observation after learning so much – using bow/bow is hard and I saw these players die against world boses and in cramped public dungeons (Vile Manse says hi ;)).


    SodanTok

    I want to thank you again for this thread and your suggestions B).

    I hope this is my last question – I seriously think to change Spriggan‘s set to the Morag Tong (2x armor + 3x jewelry). Purple Morag Tong parts are dirt cheap to buy and I can use them in PvP, too. I would lose ~1.100 stamina and 3.450 physical penetration but would gain weapon and poison damage. As sniper and spray spammer it looks better on paper.
    Again, no DLC group dungeons and no trials (both normal and veteran).

    Dont. Well you can use Morag Tong and it wont be bad, but there is no advantage for you. Your damage will simply get worse. Thats for PVE obv. in PVP its one of the best sets.

    Also for the stamina sustain. The obvious is to go for the Dubious, but if you cant get it (its super expensive), you can do 2 options (that will negatively impact your damage, but it may be necessary) -> Either recovery glyph on jewelry or Lava Foot Soup food (then put A LOT of attribute points to health to return to ~17k values).

    Also important thing. Dont spam Acid Spray even in trash fights. If you have to kill many of them and your DoTs and buffs are all on and you have literally nothing else to do (because casting lethal arrow here would be kinda pointless) -> You heavy attack, press acid spray during the windup and repeat till you have to cast aoes and buffs again.
    Edited by SodanTok on February 1, 2018 3:38PM
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  • Jowrik
    Jowrik
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    @SodanTok How do you think we could fit Mechanical Acuity into this setup (especially for NB)?
    I was thinking about Acuity+VO, Acuity+TFS (in case pen is needed), Acuity+Briarheart en the obvious master + vMA bow
    I'm currently unable to craft the set so I was wondering if you'd be willing to do some parses with Acuity.
    Nightblade - Khajiit - Rha'Viir
    PC - EU - Aldmeri Dominion
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  • SodanTok
    SodanTok
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    Jowrik wrote: »
    SodanTok How do you think we could fit Mechanical Acuity into this setup (especially for NB)?
    I was thinking about Acuity+VO, Acuity+TFS (in case pen is needed), Acuity+Briarheart en the obvious master + vMA bow
    I'm currently unable to craft the set so I was wondering if you'd be willing to do some parses with Acuity.

    I was largely unimpressed by Acuity around Clockwork PTS. Made some tests and it just did not work that great. There is no burst period as on normal stamblade for example. No cheap ultimate. No front bar synergy (you can use it on front bar DW and avoid proccing it on backbar then). And if it procs during bow heavy attack you are just screwed.
    (but back then I was still working with khajiit, redguard could show even better results because of the sustain and less crit)

    But I may give it a go again. Will try it on warden too (less crit damage, but with cheap ulti). It will probably still be good, most things are really good and close to each other. Plus the grim focus changes could help with with lining spectral bow to the proc.

    Big disadvantage is the craftability of it. Disables NMG as potential set, which imo should be used nearly always on bow build in trials. And very little of other support sets to use for group. On warden could probably do war machine + acuity and have best of both worlds.
    Edited by SodanTok on February 2, 2018 10:55AM
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  • Jowrik
    Jowrik
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    SodanTok wrote: »
    Jowrik wrote: »
    SodanTok How do you think we could fit Mechanical Acuity into this setup (especially for NB)?
    I was thinking about Acuity+VO, Acuity+TFS (in case pen is needed), Acuity+Briarheart en the obvious master + vMA bow
    I'm currently unable to craft the set so I was wondering if you'd be willing to do some parses with Acuity.

    I was largely unimpressed by Acuity around Clockwork PTS. Made some tests and it just did not work that great. There is no burst period as on normal stamblade for example. No cheap ultimate. No front bar synergy (you can use it on front bar DW and avoid proccing it on backbar then). And if it procs during bow heavy attack you are just screwed.

    But I may give it a go again. Will try it on warden too (less crit damage, but with cheap ulti). It will probably still be good, most things are really good and close to each other. Plus the grim focus changes could help with with lining spectral bow to the proc.

    Big disadvantage is the craftability of it. Disables NMG as potential set, which imo should be used nearly always on bow build in trials.

    Would you use NMG because your DPS would be lower anyways & saving out a melee stam DPS on running a lower dmg set?
    Also Acuity + war machine could be something aswell maybe, since the major slayer buff is 28 meters too? Not sure what ult to use then though. I guess ballista but you can't use it as often as you would like compared to a melee dps.

    I agree on your points though, if Acuity would have jewelry that might be good. Really wondering about the grim focus changes too affecting bow (even the current setup i run). The thing with bow dd is that you have to really min/max, losing 1-2k DPS because you're using another set is more of a handicap than it would be for melee dd
    Nightblade - Khajiit - Rha'Viir
    PC - EU - Aldmeri Dominion
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  • Jowrik
    Jowrik
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    Jowrik wrote: »
    @SodanTok How do you think we could fit Mechanical Acuity into this setup (especially for NB)?
    I was thinking about Acuity+VO, Acuity+TFS (in case pen is needed), Acuity+Briarheart en the obvious master + vMA bow
    I'm currently unable to craft the set so I was wondering if you'd be willing to do some parses with Acuity.

    Adding to this, Acuity+3xVO jewelry+monster helm/shoulder combo might be worth checking out too?
    Nightblade - Khajiit - Rha'Viir
    PC - EU - Aldmeri Dominion
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  • SodanTok
    SodanTok
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    Jowrik wrote: »
    SodanTok wrote: »
    Jowrik wrote: »
    SodanTok How do you think we could fit Mechanical Acuity into this setup (especially for NB)?
    I was thinking about Acuity+VO, Acuity+TFS (in case pen is needed), Acuity+Briarheart en the obvious master + vMA bow
    I'm currently unable to craft the set so I was wondering if you'd be willing to do some parses with Acuity.

    I was largely unimpressed by Acuity around Clockwork PTS. Made some tests and it just did not work that great. There is no burst period as on normal stamblade for example. No cheap ultimate. No front bar synergy (you can use it on front bar DW and avoid proccing it on backbar then). And if it procs during bow heavy attack you are just screwed.

    But I may give it a go again. Will try it on warden too (less crit damage, but with cheap ulti). It will probably still be good, most things are really good and close to each other. Plus the grim focus changes could help with with lining spectral bow to the proc.

    Big disadvantage is the craftability of it. Disables NMG as potential set, which imo should be used nearly always on bow build in trials.

    Would you use NMG because your DPS would be lower anyways & saving out a melee stam DPS on running a lower dmg set?
    Also Acuity + war machine could be something aswell maybe, since the major slayer buff is 28 meters too? Not sure what ult to use then though. I guess ballista but you can't use it as often as you would like compared to a melee dps.

    I agree on your points though, if Acuity would have jewelry that might be good. Really wondering about the grim focus changes too affecting bow (even the current setup i run). The thing with bow dd is that you have to really min/max, losing 1-2k DPS because you're using another set is more of a handicap than it would be for melee dd

    You use NMG for 3 reasons. Group support obviously. Then because you can literally quantify the penetration as % damage increase. It is same % for 20k as it is for 40k dps, so by you wearing it, you are losing less DPS (like for example if you were using spriggan or TFS) and everyone else gains more DPS because they get the % for free. Also bow has pretty good AoE (more so on warden), would even say better than normal DW stamsorc in many situations (they are the best users of NMG).
    War Machine is not really doable with bow on anything but warden. Theoretically you do it with the melee incap/soul harvest on NB too, but I feel that is too stupid on bow build (plus puts you in harms way) or the templar one. Not worth it imo so only warden has cheap, ranged ultimate.
    But yes, the major slayer buff is good. Solo on some dummy it wont be seen as good (the gain is very diminished by the many other % modifiers bow and warden have), but it offers very rare buff to other ranged users in group. Something only magicka warden can do.

    As for bow dd, you really dont have to min max. Given the nature of bow low DPS, we have the unique 'advantage' (lol) of having better choice of sets. Something that gives 1k DPS to melee build may give us just 50-80% of the value. I tried many sets like morag tong, hunding, briar, acuity, vo, war machine, red mountain, poisonous serpent, ... an the difference between best and worst with similar penetration value is like 2k DPS (i think morag tong was worst). TFS obviously wins over all of them, but that is because penetration is too good on dummy, without all the penetration debuffs from group.

    Jowrik wrote: »
    Jowrik wrote: »
    @SodanTok How do you think we could fit Mechanical Acuity into this setup (especially for NB)?
    I was thinking about Acuity+VO, Acuity+TFS (in case pen is needed), Acuity+Briarheart en the obvious master + vMA bow
    I'm currently unable to craft the set so I was wondering if you'd be willing to do some parses with Acuity.

    Adding to this, Acuity+3xVO jewelry+monster helm/shoulder combo might be worth checking out too?

    I will check it out. The chances are it will perform better than acuity+5piece because of the monster set, but I dont think it would perform better than other good sets in this case.
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  • SodanTok
    SodanTok
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    @Jowrik Actually I forgot the most important antiAcuity reason of all. Bad Lightweight trap. For reasons known only to ZoS balance team, lightweight trap offers only 60% uptime on Minor Force in classic rotation, while costing enough stamina and having enough bad animation, not to ever make it worth casting twice.

    In some super ultra raid situation I guess someone could give Guard minor force buff... but why. For one, bow build will rarely see place in such situation and for second, why give minor force buff to build that already has 60% uptime on minor force, when you can give it to magicka build that has 0%.

    Ofc there is rearming trap, but you wont use it. I see many builds and guides using it, but no. In proper trial you are never gonna use rearming trap. What do you do when you cant move (like in MoL or AA).
    Edited by SodanTok on February 2, 2018 1:54PM
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  • exiars10
    exiars10
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    @SodanTok

    All right about set and some news.
    Character defenitely has unbuffed ~13k health and ~30k stamina. Sorry for mistyping.

    I transmutated Kra‘gh helm from training to divines. Guild house has station, I completely forgot about it :).

    I bought Dubious Camoran Throne at 95 gold per piece which is the cheapest I found last night and I searched both TTC and in person at so many traders… I will use it only in the hardest veteran group dungeons. And there is no way I‘m going to pay 250k+ for recipe :).
    I can craft Orzorga‘s Triple Trifle Pocket. Looks good to me for easier veteran dungeons.

    I regularly read/browse r/elderscrollsonline and I found out this video:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHBCn7gBnE0
    Guy is using Red Mountain set. I guess it‘s legit for Warden but what about Nightblade?
    I don't play ESO since 15.06. because Cyrodiil is broken since Summerset (PvE isn't much better, too)...

    Aldmeri Dominion (PC Europe via Steam)

    The cowardly Wood Elves are best noted for their unwillingness to engage in a face-to-face attack; a Bosmer will strike at you from every side except the front. You won't cross swords with a Bosmer, but you might catch an arrow in the throat. Be wary in forests and jungles, and watch your back.
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  • SodanTok
    SodanTok
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    exiars10 wrote: »
    @SodanTok

    All right about set and some news.
    Character defenitely has unbuffed ~13k health and ~30k stamina. Sorry for mistyping.

    I transmutated Kra‘gh helm from training to divines. Guild house has station, I completely forgot about it :).

    I bought Dubious Camoran Throne at 95 gold per piece which is the cheapest I found last night and I searched both TTC and in person at so many traders… I will use it only in the hardest veteran group dungeons. And there is no way I‘m going to pay 250k+ for recipe :).
    I can craft Orzorga‘s Triple Trifle Pocket. Looks good to me for easier veteran dungeons.

    I regularly read/browse r/elderscrollsonline and I found out this video:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHBCn7gBnE0
    Guy is using Red Mountain set. I guess it‘s legit for Warden but what about Nightblade?

    Yeah I know about red mountain. Single target, it is powerful as all other sets I mention in the guide. But that is it... single target only. All other sets, for no or minimal DPS loss, buff all your AoE damage. And that is on dummy. In group content you may get more weapon damage from SPC het every healer uses, you get Major Force from warhorn nearly every healer or tank uses and these things do not buff Red Mountain at all.

    As for NB, even worse. If I simplify the racial advantages, NB gets crit, Warden gets +% damage done, Sorc gets +% physical damage done. So out of these 3, only warden is buffing red mountain.

    Also side note, I never tested it, but red mountain is fire damage, so there is chance it does not actually get buff from physical penetration at all. Which would make it totally bad in trials for example.
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  • SodanTok
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    @Jowrik

    Alright. Testing on PTS was very difficult. More than ever. Funny how the game with 180 ping can make you see casting endless hail, make you hear casting endless hail and not cast it. Or how easily you can go through backbar rotation, weaving light attacks (and see them fly) yet get only 2 stacks for grim focus.

    So I dropped all test where I noticed such behavior and though it had big impact. Used VO in all tests so I never had to go for heavy attacks and ruin test plus it very obviously is outputting less damage than other big sets (but not by much and with the sustain it is good reason to always have it as secondary). Nothing was really optimized other than CP for maximum gain so no point looking at the numbers and comparing them with different parses with different gear, penetration, sustain, etc...

    Cant use war machine, we know penetration set will always be better because its solo parse, VO reasons I already stated so the only good choices to compare acuity to were briar and hunding. Did several test and removed all weird outliers (srsly, one of my hunding parses had 35.2k DPS). No poisons were used (to minimize RNG). All 6M dummies:

    Acuity: 33,354 DPS
    Briarheart: 33,785 DPS
    Hunding: 33,601 DPS

    In summary, use whatever you want, but all the advantages of Acuity are mostly gone on bow build. No 100% Minor Force Uptime, no burst phase, not even that low crit (reason why it performs well on some magicka builds) since bow builds usually lack just 5-7.5% crit chance over DW build.
    Many times Acuity procced at very horrible time (the moment you just start reapplying dots)


    Will probably test it on warden too someday. No bonus crit damage there, but also less critical chance.
    Edited by SodanTok on February 2, 2018 5:47PM
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  • exiars10
    exiars10
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    Yesterday for pledges were WRS and BC. Played on veteran.

    In BC half way through, other DD left and I was with CP 700+ healer and CP 800+ tank. Several players entered and quickly left because they came in the end – the Lava Queen. I did my best and we beat Lava Queen. I was several times one shoted (didn‘t know mechanics and I hate clunky ESO moving animations) but healer always resurrected me. After we killed her they thanked me for staying. Not a single complain for using bow/bow. Wow. DW/bow would probably much faster kill but anyway – see my signature :D.

    In Sewers, tank was CP 1000+, healer CP 900+, and other DD CP 700+. That DD used Red Mountain set. Volcano was processing like crazy. This is really gimmick as it mostly shoot skeevers and bandits – epic fail :). TL; DR – Red Mountain is great set for Warden for farming world/public dungeon/delve bosses otherwise is nice meme set. My next character is going to be Bosmer stamina Warden (one day in summer) and this meme set is noted ;).

    I don't play ESO since 15.06. because Cyrodiil is broken since Summerset (PvE isn't much better, too)...

    Aldmeri Dominion (PC Europe via Steam)

    The cowardly Wood Elves are best noted for their unwillingness to engage in a face-to-face attack; a Bosmer will strike at you from every side except the front. You won't cross swords with a Bosmer, but you might catch an arrow in the throat. Be wary in forests and jungles, and watch your back.
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  • JobooAGS
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    Finally made it to 35k on my bowblade, thanks!
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  • AcadianPaladin
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    I'm still very much enjoying this thread.

    Some of the things I've seen here have inspired my bow/bow stamsorc to reevaluate her limits. Her limits had been soloing public dungeons and very carefully soloing dolmens. I felt that soloing WBs or going to Cyrodiil to get Caltrops would be well beyond her.

    Thanks to the confidence gained from this thread, I'm happy to report that she has blossomed quite a bit. Practice and a heavy reliance on mobility have been the key. This past week she not only graduated to soloing WBs but also braved Cyrodiil long enough to earn Caltrops which I think will help her even more.

    She'll never claim to be a high level dps but she really can carry her weight in most situations. Anyway, thanks again to all for the wonderful knowledge shared in this thread.
    PC NA(no Steam), PvE, mostly solo
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  • JobooAGS
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    If only raid leaders would call for a bow build like they call for a mag sorc or magblade for ranged
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  • Toc de Malsvi
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    JobooAGS wrote: »
    If only raid leaders would call for a bow build like they call for a mag sorc or magblade for ranged

    It would be cool, but as of yet there is no specific useful buff brought by Bow, and there are little to no fights where bow is significantly advantageous. Mostly Bow is somewhat disadvantageous as anything other than a back bar support weapon. It's really hard to argue that back bar support is not what ZOS intended in the design of Bow within ESO's combat, I don't like it but everything significantly Bow's have is available from back bar support. Snipe is the one and truly front bar skill and ZOS appears to be torn on its view with it, they don't want you ganking but that is mostly all Snipe is good for.

    I have personally worked really hard to use Bows and come up with creative solutions to take advantage of Snipe, but it still is far more effective for gank spamming than for really anything else.
    Legendary Archer of Valenwood
    Bosmer Dragon Knight Archer. XBox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Bosmer Nightblade Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Bosmer Sorcerer Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Bosmer Warden Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Templar's are evil..
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  • JobooAGS
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    JobooAGS wrote: »
    If only raid leaders would call for a bow build like they call for a mag sorc or magblade for ranged

    It would be cool, but as of yet there is no specific useful buff brought by Bow, and there are little to no fights where bow is significantly advantageous. Mostly Bow is somewhat disadvantageous as anything other than a back bar support weapon. It's really hard to argue that back bar support is not what ZOS intended in the design of Bow within ESO's combat, I don't like it but everything significantly Bow's have is available from back bar support. Snipe is the one and truly front bar skill and ZOS appears to be torn on its view with it, they don't want you ganking but that is mostly all Snipe is good for.

    I have personally worked really hard to use Bows and come up with creative solutions to take advantage of Snipe, but it still is far more effective for gank spamming than for really anything else.

    If zos were to make snipe an ult and rapid fire a spammable and give one of the morphs of rapid fire a small debuff say 5% more damage against the target for the duration of a dot (debuff) on the final hit for the group which can be purged (toxic barrage?) And the other morph being more bursty like the final hit from rapid strikes or something. It would definely make pvpers who hate snipe spam happy, and if done right, make bow users not frowned upon.
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  • SodanTok
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    New Patch Update
    • Snipe is back - Coming next Patch (Dragon Bones DLC), movement slow from cast time/channel abilities is being reduced from 50% to 25%. That means one of the main weaknesses of Snipe is greatly reduced. It still remains cast time ability obviously, making it difficult for light attack weaving for many people and in some situations problematic use, but the danger (or DPS loss when canceling) of having to cast it in fast paced combat (where AoEs fly left and right like in AS trial) is mostly gone now. And as bow spammable, it still outperforms any other available spammable in the game, that includes warden Cutting Dive.
    • Nightblade rotation is better - With Changes to Grim Focus (Relentless) keeping the stack count even when ability is recasted or not active (as long as you are in combat), the rotation and DPS output of NB Bow build is much improved. Getting 2 spectral arrow shots in 20s is now guarantee and in some situations getting halfway to 3rd is possible. Before even 2nd shot was not always within reach. With this, I would even advise to having Relentless Focus on both bars and cast it whenever it is ready on any bar (big difference between DW and bow build here, since we have bar space and we have +/- weapon damage on both bars)

    Also made some DPS test to highlight how classes stack against each other. As always, these numbers are meaningful only in this context. Gear was not maximized for most DPS on each class, PTS has 200 ping. Used two setups, one with full penetration with Major Fracture (~18200) and second with same penetration minus the Major Fracture (~13000) mostly to be able to compare Stam sorc. Redguard vampire, 5VO, 5TFS, fully divines Lover, Minor Fracture from Focused Aim. This does not tell the whole story obviously. Nightblade has Minor Berserk and too much sustain (if I wanted more DPS, I would not use VO for example). Warden without Major Fracture basically means no damage from Sub Assault, which is DPS loss, etc...

    Full penetration (~18200)
    • Nightblade full pen: 37,250 DPS
    • Warden (no bear) full pen: 32,647 DPS
    • Warden (bear) full pen: 35,280 DPS

    Partial penetration (~13000)
    • Nightblade partial pen: 33,588 DPS
    • Sorc partial pen: 32,622 DPS
    • Warden (no bear) partial pen: 30,040 DPS

    Bar all the minor details mentioned above, this easily tells the story of how Warden underperforms without Bear. Nightblade is still obviously the king for single target DPS, but they are very lacking survivability. Bow nightblade has very minor self healing and no defensive buffs. Sorc is weaker than NB, much bigger sustain problems while still having lesser DPS, but comes with Surge and Hurricane (very useful in all situations where even on bow build one has to stand close to enemy - and therefore the aoe).
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  • exiars10
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    Thank you very much for the update for the next official ESO update. Some love for bow indeed :).

    Since I started using Orzorga‘s Triple Trifle Pocket (increase Max Health by 5000 and Stamina Recovery by 457 for 2 hours) I can literally (acid) spray and pray like a pro :). Seriously, no more using Essence of Stamina and can spray all over (public and group) dungeon mobs. I know Bosmer is on low for NB stamina PvE, but racial passive with this food really jumps stamina recovery highly.

    So basically being a bit squishy is only big problem so avoiding cramped space is high priority. Died several times yesterday in Eastmarch PD (f### this place) because of spawning enemies and really cramped space :-/...

    Next is PvP bow/bow thread as I finally grinded enough skill points...


    @AcadianPaladin

    Grinding Cyrodiil for Assault line is actually one of the easiest things in game as long as position yourself properly and don't die. Join zerg and heal them. Easy AP farming. But anyway I'm glad you did it.

    Solo dolmen farming is mostly easy (I did it so many times) except several harder enemies. I really hate those big 2H guys who use AoE silence and slows. Killing priority no.1.
    Edited by exiars10 on February 4, 2018 4:03PM
    I don't play ESO since 15.06. because Cyrodiil is broken since Summerset (PvE isn't much better, too)...

    Aldmeri Dominion (PC Europe via Steam)

    The cowardly Wood Elves are best noted for their unwillingness to engage in a face-to-face attack; a Bosmer will strike at you from every side except the front. You won't cross swords with a Bosmer, but you might catch an arrow in the throat. Be wary in forests and jungles, and watch your back.
    Options
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