Making NB DPS more Risk/Reward through Positioning

Shadzilla

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

These are my own ideas, and I hope to hear criticism about them and/or your own ideas for the Nightblade as well.

Pulling from https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/374513/new-nightblade-skill-replacing-agony-change-to-backstab/p1:

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

To be honest, I think that agony (Malefic Offering) should be left alone. It adds in a healing that is so different from the standard norm, I think its a good thing, for now, as it gives NB healing a uniqueness.

What I honestly think (and this is just quick speculation), is that the Master Assassin passive should be tweaked a bit. And at least a few skill should be shifted around.

To begin with:

Master Assassin now increases your Weapon Damage and Spell Damage by [x]% against targets facing away from you (+ the sneak stun bonus).

I would then take Veiled Attack, and swap it's position with Blur, then Swap Veiled Attack and Assassin's Blade in the skill unlock list.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Shadzilla

Of course.

My next suggestion would be to then do this:

Teleport Strike:
Part of the base skill and carrying over to the morphs:
Casting this from stealth or cloak teleports you behind your target, or the nearest valid terrain.

Now you have a way to re-position yourself behind an enemy, it comes with a little setup so that you aren't always behind your enemy (requiring you to at least spend magicka on cloak while in combat), as well as giving you a way to gap close into your passive ability. (Having the camera rotate for the player automatically might be a good thing here). (This is also kinda a nerf as a PvP guy could expect a newb using Teleport strike all the time with cloak to always show up behind them).

Mark Target, Implications for NB in PvP
Now that Surprise Attack is in the Assassination Tree, it might be beneficial to change the functionality of the stamina morph of Surprise Attack so this is the skill they need to apply an armor debuff rather than sNB spamming SA all the time.

At this point, SA (and veiled strike) has been gutted absolutely ruthlessly. It now no longer debuffs the enemy with Major Fracture for sNB, but for both mNB and sNB you no longer gain Major Resistance buffs from spamming this attack.

So, at this point, how can Veiled Strike be buffed (or other aspects of the NB skills) in order to compensate for this tremendous amount of nerf in regards to self-buffs and target debuffs?

My thoughts on this are as follows:

Change Master Assassin (in the Assassination Skill Tree), to increase WD and SD against targets facing away from you (by the current amount that is applied to the sneaking bonus)

Move Veiled Strike (SA) into the Assassination Tree, replacing Blur (into Shadow) and swapping Assassin's Blade(Killer's Blade) with Veiled Strike(SA)

Teleport Strike (base functionality) will now position you behind your Target if cast from cloak or stealth or invisibility.

Veiled Strike (base functionality) will no longer stun from stealth or cloak, but will instead ignore blocking mitigation if cast from behind an enemy.

Surprise Attack (VS) will no longer debuff with Major Fracture, but instead will have different functionality. It will now grant the Stun bonus that was removed in the base skill.

Now NB is much more position dependent, and can take down permablocking tanks if they're silly enough to expose their back to the NB. However this comes at the cost of not getting Major Resistance Buffs from spamming Surprise attack, as well as relegating Major Fracture to Mark Target.


I'd love to hear constructive criticism about this, as well as your own ideas. (Constructive criticism does not mean "applauding" the idea. but rather offering feedback with reasoning behind it. It could be negative criticism but with solid reasoning behind it. Remaining Civil is always a plus.)

Totally agree with the master assassin change, giving nightblades a better incentive to actually get behind their targets.

I highly dislike switching veiled strike and blur in the trees... I have personally played a stamblade since beta, and the shadow barrier buffs are such a huge part of my build its not even funny. Without having that shadow barrier passive, I become waaaaaaay more squishy..

I wouldn't remove the snare from teleport strike, I personally think the snare is a must have.

The change to veiled strike is really pvp only related, which I do not like.

Do not like the stun proposed to suprise attack. In all honesty I wouldn't mind seeing suprise attack give its own new 3k physical resistance debuff that can stack with other debuffs, and not applying major fracture. This would make having at least 1 stamblade even more of a requirement for raids.

I would like to see more of a reward for nightblades actually being behind their targets. It happens in pretty much all other games, where rogues do their best damage in the 6 o'clock position of the boss/target. I would love to see a backstab ability instead of the new suicide skill, but I know it is a longshot. Hopefully in the future we can at least get some passives that will reward directional tactical combat for this class.

Lexxypwns

Kilandros wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

These are my own ideas, and I hope to hear criticism about them and/or your own ideas for the Nightblade as well.

Pulling from https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/374513/new-nightblade-skill-replacing-agony-change-to-backstab/p1:

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

To be honest, I think that agony (Malefic Offering) should be left alone. It adds in a healing that is so different from the standard norm, I think its a good thing, for now, as it gives NB healing a uniqueness.

What I honestly think (and this is just quick speculation), is that the Master Assassin passive should be tweaked a bit. And at least a few skill should be shifted around.

To begin with:

Master Assassin now increases your Weapon Damage and Spell Damage by [x]% against targets facing away from you (+ the sneak stun bonus).

I would then take Veiled Attack, and swap it's position with Blur, then Swap Veiled Attack and Assassin's Blade in the skill unlock list.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Shadzilla

Of course.

My next suggestion would be to then do this:

Teleport Strike:
Part of the base skill and carrying over to the morphs:
Casting this from stealth or cloak teleports you behind your target, or the nearest valid terrain.

Now you have a way to re-position yourself behind an enemy, it comes with a little setup so that you aren't always behind your enemy (requiring you to at least spend magicka on cloak while in combat), as well as giving you a way to gap close into your passive ability. (Having the camera rotate for the player automatically might be a good thing here). (This is also kinda a nerf as a PvP guy could expect a newb using Teleport strike all the time with cloak to always show up behind them).

Mark Target, Implications for NB in PvP
Now that Surprise Attack is in the Assassination Tree, it might be beneficial to change the functionality of the stamina morph of Surprise Attack so this is the skill they need to apply an armor debuff rather than sNB spamming SA all the time.

At this point, SA (and veiled strike) has been gutted absolutely ruthlessly. It now no longer debuffs the enemy with Major Fracture for sNB, but for both mNB and sNB you no longer gain Major Resistance buffs from spamming this attack.

So, at this point, how can Veiled Strike be buffed (or other aspects of the NB skills) in order to compensate for this tremendous amount of nerf in regards to self-buffs and target debuffs?

My thoughts on this are as follows:

Change Master Assassin (in the Assassination Skill Tree), to increase WD and SD against targets facing away from you (by the current amount that is applied to the sneaking bonus)

Move Veiled Strike (SA) into the Assassination Tree, replacing Blur (into Shadow) and swapping Assassin's Blade(Killer's Blade) with Veiled Strike(SA)

Teleport Strike (base functionality) will now position you behind your Target if cast from cloak or stealth or invisibility.

Veiled Strike (base functionality) will no longer stun from stealth or cloak, but will instead ignore blocking mitigation if cast from behind an enemy.

Surprise Attack (VS) will no longer debuff with Major Fracture, but instead will have different functionality. It will now grant the Stun bonus that was removed in the base skill.

Now NB is much more position dependent, and can take down permablocking tanks if they're silly enough to expose their back to the NB. However this comes at the cost of not getting Major Resistance Buffs from spamming Surprise attack, as well as relegating Major Fracture to Mark Target.


I'd love to hear constructive criticism about this, as well as your own ideas. (Constructive criticism does not mean "applauding" the idea. but rather offering feedback with reasoning behind it. It could be negative criticism but with solid reasoning behind it. Remaining Civil is always a plus.)

Those are a lot of buffs/changes for a class that is already very potent and getting buffed this patch. I do think that Surprise Attack and Blur should swap lines for cohesion and so that SA can take advantage of the buffed Executioner passive.

As far as mNB goes, my biggest complaint is that the Assassin's Will proc is very very clunky. They're improving that, so we're going to need to see how that plays out. But in general I think both Magicka and Stamina NB are in very good spots right now.

The last thing you want is for NB to get overbuffed because when it inevitably gets nerfed to compensate ZOS will go overboard with both direct and indirect nerfs. Trust me on this, I've played a DK since beta.

Once you master proc'ing the bow its GG tho on mageblade. I typically always pop 2 spectral bows off per cast of merciless and could probably get 3 if I didn't prefer to recast it before going back to resto bar after my second proc. That's mostly just preference because then I'm not pressured to get back to front bar so I don't miss my proc. I've taken to slotting degeneration back bar (since I chugged 3k spell power pots and didn't bother to farm more mats) and using that to empower either the bow or an ultimate after bar swap.

Niiiice, yeah it's extremely satisfying (and devastating) to land the proc in PvP. I'm definitely nowhere near getting 3 procs off per cast though lol, I've got a ways to go. But I am looking forward to being able to animation cancel the proc next patch.

Me too! I'll be moving merciless to back bar and bar swap canceling the bow so I can slot ele drain front bar.

Izaki

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Lexxypwns

I honestly only play stamNB, but aint mNB a little sub-par currently?

Magblades are better than MagSorcs in PvE in single target dps. Since Magplars, Mag DKs and Mag Wardens aren't used at all in trials nowadays since the melee spots are too precious, that kinda makes them the best Magicka DPS in single target.

Stamblades are just as good as Stam DKs and only get better in shorter fights. They also give massive group support via Soul Harvest and War Machine.

I don't get why you want to change the whole functionality of a class that is in a very good spot.

Izaki

Kilandros wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

These are my own ideas, and I hope to hear criticism about them and/or your own ideas for the Nightblade as well.

Pulling from https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/374513/new-nightblade-skill-replacing-agony-change-to-backstab/p1:

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

To be honest, I think that agony (Malefic Offering) should be left alone. It adds in a healing that is so different from the standard norm, I think its a good thing, for now, as it gives NB healing a uniqueness.

What I honestly think (and this is just quick speculation), is that the Master Assassin passive should be tweaked a bit. And at least a few skill should be shifted around.

To begin with:

Master Assassin now increases your Weapon Damage and Spell Damage by [x]% against targets facing away from you (+ the sneak stun bonus).

I would then take Veiled Attack, and swap it's position with Blur, then Swap Veiled Attack and Assassin's Blade in the skill unlock list.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Shadzilla

Of course.

My next suggestion would be to then do this:

Teleport Strike:
Part of the base skill and carrying over to the morphs:
Casting this from stealth or cloak teleports you behind your target, or the nearest valid terrain.

Now you have a way to re-position yourself behind an enemy, it comes with a little setup so that you aren't always behind your enemy (requiring you to at least spend magicka on cloak while in combat), as well as giving you a way to gap close into your passive ability. (Having the camera rotate for the player automatically might be a good thing here). (This is also kinda a nerf as a PvP guy could expect a newb using Teleport strike all the time with cloak to always show up behind them).

Mark Target, Implications for NB in PvP
Now that Surprise Attack is in the Assassination Tree, it might be beneficial to change the functionality of the stamina morph of Surprise Attack so this is the skill they need to apply an armor debuff rather than sNB spamming SA all the time.

At this point, SA (and veiled strike) has been gutted absolutely ruthlessly. It now no longer debuffs the enemy with Major Fracture for sNB, but for both mNB and sNB you no longer gain Major Resistance buffs from spamming this attack.

So, at this point, how can Veiled Strike be buffed (or other aspects of the NB skills) in order to compensate for this tremendous amount of nerf in regards to self-buffs and target debuffs?

My thoughts on this are as follows:

Change Master Assassin (in the Assassination Skill Tree), to increase WD and SD against targets facing away from you (by the current amount that is applied to the sneaking bonus)

Move Veiled Strike (SA) into the Assassination Tree, replacing Blur (into Shadow) and swapping Assassin's Blade(Killer's Blade) with Veiled Strike(SA)

Teleport Strike (base functionality) will now position you behind your Target if cast from cloak or stealth or invisibility.

Veiled Strike (base functionality) will no longer stun from stealth or cloak, but will instead ignore blocking mitigation if cast from behind an enemy.

Surprise Attack (VS) will no longer debuff with Major Fracture, but instead will have different functionality. It will now grant the Stun bonus that was removed in the base skill.

Now NB is much more position dependent, and can take down permablocking tanks if they're silly enough to expose their back to the NB. However this comes at the cost of not getting Major Resistance Buffs from spamming Surprise attack, as well as relegating Major Fracture to Mark Target.


I'd love to hear constructive criticism about this, as well as your own ideas. (Constructive criticism does not mean "applauding" the idea. but rather offering feedback with reasoning behind it. It could be negative criticism but with solid reasoning behind it. Remaining Civil is always a plus.)

Those are a lot of buffs/changes for a class that is already very potent and getting buffed this patch. I do think that Surprise Attack and Blur should swap lines for cohesion and so that SA can take advantage of the buffed Executioner passive.

As far as mNB goes, my biggest complaint is that the Assassin's Will proc is very very clunky. They're improving that, so we're going to need to see how that plays out. But in general I think both Magicka and Stamina NB are in very good spots right now.

The last thing you want is for NB to get overbuffed because when it inevitably gets nerfed to compensate ZOS will go overboard with both direct and indirect nerfs. Trust me on this, I've played a DK since beta.

Once you master proc'ing the bow its GG tho on mageblade. I typically always pop 2 spectral bows off per cast of merciless and could probably get 3 if I didn't prefer to recast it before going back to resto bar after my second proc. That's mostly just preference because then I'm not pressured to get back to front bar so I don't miss my proc. I've taken to slotting degeneration back bar (since I chugged 3k spell power pots and didn't bother to farm more mats) and using that to empower either the bow or an ultimate after bar swap.

Niiiice, yeah it's extremely satisfying (and devastating) to land the proc in PvP. I'm definitely nowhere near getting 3 procs off per cast though lol, I've got a ways to go. But I am looking forward to being able to animation cancel the proc next patch.

Animation canceling the bow proc will mostly be of use to Stamblades: HA + Assassin's Scourge + Bash. On a Magblade the only animation canceling that you'll be able to do is weapon swap canceling, which is somethign you can already do, since the cast time is only 100 miliseconds. You'll also be able to block cast it. Unless of course you're referring to block canceling, which doesn't do anything at all aside from making your character look extremely awkward. Not much will change for Relentless. It just won't be as clunky in general since it will fire off immediately instead of locking your character into an animation for 0.1 seconds.

Avran_Sylt

@Izaki

I understand that NB is actually in a good spot. I agree with you in that sentiment, sNB and mNB both have different playstyles that are actually very different from one another.

I enjoy it as it is now, however In my opinion it would be better for class variety to have the NB at its core function in a manner that is different from other classes during add phases and the standard stack and burn.

Mainly what I want to accomplish is to have their approach (most notable in trash mob phases) be different from other classes while keeping their current damage output roughly the same.

To that end is the main reasoning behind the change to Master Assassin. Now, the directional +% damage boost was shortsighted, I will give you that, as it would allow the NB to further pump up their DPS from current parses. Which is why the next thought was to have it grant passive % resistance mitigation based on your position.

With that, the NB playstyle during multiple add phases will have them moving behind their target to maximize their potential DPS from the lack of tank focus on that target (the target still having resistances and not being overpenetrated at that time). Allowing a NB to instead focus on shifting single target damage rather than blanket AoE damage in a crowd.

Unfortunately, when it comes to immobile large bosses, the stack'n'burn will continue to persist, as the tank can very easily turn the bosses back to the NB and the boss itself likely having negligible resistances from a variety of debuffs + your own penetration.

DDuke

Definitely some interesting ideas there.

I especially like the idea of moving Surprise Attack to Assassination skill tree, it seems like a much better fit there & it'd make Shadow a purely "utility" skill line, giving it some identity (as they're doing with Siphoning, by making it the "healing" skill line).

There's one downside though: stamblades are extremely squishy in PvE, so you'd need some skill on Shadow skill line you can utilize in PvE for the Major buffs. ZOS mentioned a while ago they were planning on making stealth a more integral part of stamblade PvE DPS, so we'll see I guess.


As for removing Major Fracture from SA, that'd be a pretty big nerf and I'm not sure if it'd be a necessary one (would probably make every NB run Piercing Mark for it, resulting in frustrating PvP).


Teleport Strike: I'd like them to keep as it is for Lotus Fan, but remove Major Empower from Ambush (you don't land anything after Ambushing anyway vs good players/Miats) & add your suggestion of teleporting behind target.

Maryal

I wish I could, but, I'm sorry, I can't get behind the suggested changes (no pun intended ... lol!). The suggestions clearly focus on a particular play style you would like, but don't currently have, in pvp.

While I can understand the desire to have this type of play style available via class skills/passives, I don't think it should come at the price of dismantling NBs, as a class, or any of the other classes.

If all you want is extra damage for attacking 'from behind' ... if you want a way to have positioning be part of your play style, then you could look into the Flanking armor set (bonus damage when attacking from behind the target).

If, however, you want a play style more immersive than what you could get wearing the Flanking armor set, one that could only be obtained by having certain skills/passives available to you, then you do have other options:

1.) You could advocate for a new class. If you elect to go this route, the class abilities/passives need to be plausible with existing ESO lore.

For example, you could suggest a Daedra class. This would require not only suggesting class trees, skills/passives, but you would have to come up with how that class would fit into Cyrodiil. One thought might me that Daedra would be alliance-less. They could turn the town of Bruma into their base (since there is a dark anchor right there in the town). When the daedra successfully siege a keep, the keep's guards turn into daedra and maybe there would be some daedra monsters inside the keep lurking around the 2 flags inside. If this were a serious consideration, the idea would obviously need to be flushed out a little more.

2.) Another possibility would be to suggest that each class be given a 4th skill tree. You want a skill-line based pvp play style that is not currently offered in the game. Instead of trying to change the NB class to do this, what about adding to it by suggesting a 4th skill tree? I suspect you may need to come up with the skills/morphs and passives for this 4th skill tree (leaving the other skill trees intact).

--> The only down side I see to this option is that you might also need to come up with a proposal for a 4th skill tree for the other classes as well. Obviously this would be a time intensive project, but I think the end result would be more impactful than doing it for a single class only.

Maryal

SirAndy wrote: »

That would mean the death of my stamina Nightblade brawler build.

Remember, not everyone plays Nightblades the same way you do ...

Yea, mine too.

Izaki

DDuke wrote: »

Definitely some interesting ideas there.

I especially like the idea of moving Surprise Attack to Assassination skill tree, it seems like a much better fit there & it'd make Shadow a purely "utility" skill line, giving it some identity (as they're doing with Siphoning, by making it the "healing" skill line).

There's one downside though: stamblades are extremely squishy in PvE, so you'd need some skill on Shadow skill line you can utilize in PvE for the Major buffs. ZOS mentioned a while ago they were planning on making stealth a more integral part of stamblade PvE DPS, so we'll see I guess.


As for removing Major Fracture from SA, that'd be a pretty big nerf and I'm not sure if it'd be a necessary one (would probably make every NB run Piercing Mark for it, resulting in frustrating PvP).


Teleport Strike: I'd like them to keep as it is for Lotus Fan, but remove Major Empower from Ambush (you don't land anything after Ambushing anyway vs good players/Miats) & add your suggestion of teleporting behind target.

I was actually thinking of SA being moved to Assassination as a result of ZOS' Tank Heal DPS skill line thing. However: Surprise Attack actually fits in pretty well to the Shadow Tree. You "steal" resistances. Or you gain speed in stealth. That's shadowy stuff. I would totally like to get 2% crit just from having SA slotted though. But like you said, it would make stamblades very squishy. Nowadays, they aren't THAT squishy due to Leeching and Shadow Barrier. But take the 10% mitigation away and... yeah.

Gilvoth

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Teleport Strike (base functionality) will now position you behind your Target if cast from cloak or stealth or invisibility.

this part i highlighted and quoted sounds like an awesome idea and would truely help us nightblades.
however, the part i quoted here, is the only part i agree with though, im sorry, but i just dont agree with nor care for the other requests.

Avran_Sylt

@Maryal

An interesting viewpoint for sure. Starting off, while it does sound like this is for PvP only, I'm finding that it's easier to balance a concept with PvP in mid first, then tweaking it to PvE.

On the point that this would dismantle the NB, yeah, it would kind of force a less tanky playstyle onto players as it stands currently. And I'm starting to see that if a DPS/Tank/Heal archetype is followed for a particular class, if the 5+1 skill archetype is adhered to, more often than not you end up gutting other avenues of play available to other players.

My aim is not just extra damage from behind, but eventually have that play into the NB class as a whole through utilization with stealth. For most any adds, if you hold aggro on them the only way to get behind them is to stun them. Cloak acts as a very easy way for a player to de-aggro a mob and reposition. I want to have the NB utilizing stealth to augment a plethora of their basic abilities. Such that a tank NB might have an ability that taunts an enemy when cast from behind them, a healer NB might have a single target heal turn into an AoE heal if cast from behind the enemy. Positioning itself allowing the NB access to a greater selection of options through healing, tanking, and dpsing.

This idea is merely in it's conceptual form. Your feedback and others is greatly beneficial in hammering out inconsistencies as well as providing insight into other aspects that I myself have not noticed with the basic kit. So thank you, your comment alone has made me ponder about the implementation of these skill, and perhaps how some things can be kept the same while diversifying the total options available.

SirAndy

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

My aim is not just extra damage from behind, but eventually have that play into the NB class as a whole through utilization with stealth.

I understand where you are going with your proposed changes and why, my point however is that not everyone plays their Nightbalde that way.

My Nightblade brawler has not had a single stealth skill on any of her bars for 3 years now. I would have to abandon her since i don't particular enjoy the stealth/sneak aspect of that class.

She is, however, a formidable DPS monster that can solo most group content while being close up and in your their face.

Avran_Sylt

@SirAndy

Could I ask then the reasoning behind your choice of NB for a brawler? And not something like a stamDK?

In my opinion class choice should be one based on play-style, not preferred role. If you're choosing NB for brawling, is it because it's the more optimal brawler setup from all the other available classes?

SirAndy

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Could I ask then the reasoning behind your choice of NB for a brawler? And not something like a stamDK?

I like the Nightblade class skills for my build , especially the "Assassination" line has a lot of very useful buff/debuff skills and passives for a dual wield brawler. Only one of the passives is stealth based, the rest work great for normal combat.

I also use "Leeching Strikes" from the "Siphoning" tree to keep me alive since i weave a lot of light/heavy attacks into my main DW attack (Flurry).

My build is based on high critical damage and critical healing, both of which are very well supported by the Nightblade class.

Avran_Sylt

@SirAndy

Fair enough. However, does brawling via the upfront buffs/debuffs offered by an "Assassination" skill line seem to be the most logical choice? Would it not be better suited for another class whose thematic archetype is not that of a rogue?

The "in-your-face" style I can't quite say I agree should be a staple of the NB brawler. I can see the siphoning aspect of it, but gaining all those defensive/offensive buffs from sticking to your target and not playing off of anything else would be much better located on a class more thematically themed to that, such as a Knight or Templar.

I don't mean to take away the playstyle as a whole, if anything I suggested was to come to pass, it would have to be done en masse with other classes such that a minimal amount of playstyles are lost, and more are gained. Not to mention each class would need to be looked at to see what it can offer to a player.

SirAndy

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Fair enough. However, does brawling via the upfront buffs/debuffs offered by an "Assassination" skill line seem to be the most logical choice? Would it not be better suited for another class whose thematic archetype is not that of a rogue?

Most logical choice? Probably not.

But nevertheless a very viable choice and one i would hate to see disappear ...

Avran_Sylt

@SirAndy

Hate to see disappear on the NB? Or hate to see disappear as a whole? As it could certainly be possible to shift that play-style onto another class.

SirAndy

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Hate to see disappear on the NB? Or hate to see disappear as a whole? As it could certainly be possible to shift that play-style onto another class.

Sure, WTB Class change token ...

Avran_Sylt

@SirAndy

And if any of these kind of major changes were to transpire, I would hope that Zenimax allows that to be a thing.