dear zos, how about the idea make destro ults not stackable in cryo?

Trashs1

i ve run yesterday my first time with a middle big organized grp and it was fun yes.

when your grp run into another organized grp the tactic of choice was all sorcs pop eye of the storm and mageblades put in bomb and get the enemys wrecked. (all others where kinda suport like stamsorc for immoval and so on)

well im experienced in pvp but not in running with organized grps but i came to the follow conclution:

destro trains suck. they build tanky and just stack layers over layers of eye of the storm and even the tankiest tank gets melted in secounds.

bombing is kinda skillful because it has a few seconds delay and needs some skill to place you right into the enemy crowd <-- high risk high reward

so my sugestion is alow only like 1 or 2 layers of eye of the storm in cryo. this will stop the destro trains and make melee chars more vaible again

what does the other fellow pvpers think?

Sylphex

Eye of the Storm lasts 7 seconds and takes 2 seconds to charge up. You've got the chance to actually escape an incoming storm if you're quick enough and have the positioning, skill. Try not stacking heavily on top of each other either.

What we don't need is less ways to combat rolling zergs.

Trashs1

Sylphex wrote: »

Eye of the Storm lasts 7 seconds and takes 2 seconds to charge up. You've got the chance to actually escape an incoming storm if you're quick enough and have the positioning, skill. Try not stacking heavily on top of each other either.

What we don't need is less ways to combat rolling zergs.

are u sure? i had the intention all the upzerging is because of the unbeliveable usefulness of 5-6 eye of the storms layers

well as i sayd im experienced in pvp but not in running in organized grps

Chilly-McFreeze

Trashs1 wrote: »

Sylphex wrote: »

Eye of the Storm lasts 7 seconds and takes 2 seconds to charge up. You've got the chance to actually escape an incoming storm if you're quick enough and have the positioning, skill. Try not stacking heavily on top of each other either.

What we don't need is less ways to combat rolling zergs.

are u sure? i had the intention all the upzerging is because of the unbeliveable usefulness of 5-6 eye of the storms layers

well as i sayd im experienced in pvp but not in running in organized grps

Problem with skills, that where designed as a tool against zergs, is that zergs use them just as well if not better. Proxy det, EotS, Vamp Swarm, Steel tornado are all ment to be uses against tightly stacked opponents. You see how that played out.

IxSTALKERxI

The easiest way to explain it is this:

Damage from different players has always been intended to stack and healing from different players has always been intended to stack. That's generally how an MMO is meant to work. It encourages players to focus targets - or focus their aoe damage in the same area. Focusing targets / damage is one of the factors that decides which group is better than the other in pvp. On the flip side the opponents can stack aoe healing in area's where they are getting damaged, or on a player that is getting focused.

So making a special change just for one ultimate in the game without applying the same rules to other abilities such as batswarm etc. would be inconsistent. Applying it to every ability in the game would discourage teamwork and promote disorganized skill-less zerging. Also would make burst ultimate's a better alternative etc.

The eye of the storm meta is rather stale - eye of the storm needs to be brought more in line with the other alternative ultimate's in the game so you see some players using eye of the storm, others using batswarm, some using soul tether or dawnbreaker, etc. If survivability is an issue without destro ult than healing/utility needs to be looked into - earthgore nerf etc. Or a complete removal of damage AoE cap's.

Taonnor

A Zerg can easily playout a bomb group (~12 players) with hit / run / rezz. Sooner or later the bomb group will die. If you nerv eye of the storm that you cannot stack them, bomb groups will be growing to larger bomb groups. We always had this situation as we had an aoe cap of 6 peoples. So no. EotS is Ok as it is.

My opinion is to give smaller groups more advantage against zergs. Like no aoe cap, rezz sickness, group only heals and an ap bonus for smaller groups. This could make the current default bomb group a bit smaller to ~8-10 peoples and is a good way in my eyes.

Feanor

Remove AoE caps. Adjust skill power accordingly. Done.

Taonnor

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Trashs1 wrote: »

Sylphex wrote: »

Eye of the Storm lasts 7 seconds and takes 2 seconds to charge up. You've got the chance to actually escape an incoming storm if you're quick enough and have the positioning, skill. Try not stacking heavily on top of each other either.

What we don't need is less ways to combat rolling zergs.

are u sure? i had the intention all the upzerging is because of the unbeliveable usefulness of 5-6 eye of the storms layers

well as i sayd im experienced in pvp but not in running in organized grps

Problem with skills, that where designed as a tool against zergs, is that zergs use them just as well if not better. Proxy det, EotS, Vamp Swarm, Steel tornado are all ment to be uses against tightly stacked opponents. You see how that played out.

The greatest advantage are in my eyes not this tools for zergs. The overheal, the invinite rezzing and the dimishing return of the aoe caps are the greatest problems for smaller groups against zergs.

IxSTALKERxI

Feanor wrote: »

Remove AoE caps. Adjust skill power accordingly. Done.

^pretty much this

Bashev

Back in the days we had dynamic utli regen which was the way small groups to counter bigger groups. @ZOS_Wrobel removed it and tried to compensate it with proxy first, then with Vicious Death and the last try was EoTS. Unfortunately all attempts failed.

*Bring back dynamic ultimates regen
*Make siege in CP campaigns as good as in noCP campaigns

Trashs1

thx guys for clarifying thos out for me.

its fun for me running in such a grp but i see some potential for improvement of the experience

Bashev wrote: »

Back in the days we had dynamic utli regen which was the way small groups to counter bigger groups. @ZOS_Wrobel removed it and tried to compensate it with proxy first, then with Vicious Death and the last try was EoTS. Unfortunately all attempts failed.

*Bring back dynamic ultimates regen
*Make siege in CP campaigns as good as in noCP campaigns

how did dynamic ult reg work? (im only playing since 10 months)

Zbigb4life

Sylphex wrote: »

Eye of the Storm lasts 7 seconds and takes 2 seconds to charge up. You've got the chance to actually escape an incoming storm if you're quick enough and have the positioning, skill. Try not stacking heavily on top of each other either.

What we don't need is less ways to combat rolling zergs.

But what if the rolling zergs use eye of the storm?

pieratsos

Sylphex wrote: »

Eye of the Storm lasts 7 seconds and takes 2 seconds to charge up. You've got the chance to actually escape an incoming storm if you're quick enough and have the positioning, skill. Try not stacking heavily on top of each other either.

What we don't need is less ways to combat rolling zergs.

Destro ults not stacking is a way to combat zergs cause thats what they rely on. If you use it with ur group to combat groups bigger than yours doesnt mean its good. You are doing the exact same [snip] they do. Its the exact same concept. That playstyle is the issue. Not the numbers in ur groups.

[Edited to remove profanity]

Lieblingsjunge

They already announced, iirc, that destro-ulti will be nerfed. And that's good. If you could only be hit by 1 destro ultimate, or 2 at a time, that would be a welcoming change. At least in my eyes.

Nobody needs more than 2 storms to kill off a 20-man pug-group anyway. Maybe it's enough with 1 even.

Trashs1

they all run plague doc + blood spawn to be tanky and get a ton of ult. u need a few of them to actually do dmg

Bashev

Trashs1 wrote: »

thx guys for clarifying thos out for me.

its fun for me running in such a grp but i see some potential for improvement of the experience

Bashev wrote: »

Back in the days we had dynamic utli regen which was the way small groups to counter bigger groups. @ZOS_Wrobel removed it and tried to compensate it with proxy first, then with Vicious Death and the last try was EoTS. Unfortunately all attempts failed.

*Bring back dynamic ultimates regen
*Make siege in CP campaigns as good as in noCP campaigns

how did dynamic ult reg work? (im only playing since 10 months)

When you damage a target you generate 1 ult for each target that you hit. When you receive damage (or if you block the damage, I forgot how it was this part) you generate 1ult for each hit. If your hits were critical it was 3 ulti I think then if you CC another 3 ulti. It needed some tweaks because skills as dark talons were very OP. AoE CC + DoT and it generated tons of ultimate when you hit 6 targets.

Feanor

On top of that healing worked the same, so AoE heals like Healing Springs generated ultimate really fast. And for a long time you could generate ultimate with it even if your targets were full HP and you didn't heal them at all. Most raids therefore constantly charged their ultimate to full before going to the next fight.

Vapirko

We’ve been asking for this change for a long time. Upside is ZOS realized the issue with EOTS and is planing on bringing down the damage within this PTS cycle, so it’s not perfect, I agree with you that some sort of unstackable option would be great, but at least it’s something.

Lieblingsjunge

Trashs1 wrote: »

they all run plague doc + blood spawn to be tanky and get a ton of ult. u need a few of them to actually do dmg

Oh really, now. That's probably the [snip] build Ive heard for a bomblade in a long, long time. Plague got nerfed making it a bad choice for Bomblades anyway.

DRXHarbinger

Bashev wrote: »

Trashs1 wrote: »

thx guys for clarifying thos out for me.

its fun for me running in such a grp but i see some potential for improvement of the experience

Bashev wrote: »

Back in the days we had dynamic utli regen which was the way small groups to counter bigger groups. @ZOS_Wrobel removed it and tried to compensate it with proxy first, then with Vicious Death and the last try was EoTS. Unfortunately all attempts failed.

*Bring back dynamic ultimates regen
*Make siege in CP campaigns as good as in noCP campaigns

how did dynamic ult reg work? (im only playing since 10 months)

When you damage a target you generate 1 ult for each target that you hit. When you receive damage (or if you block the damage, I forgot how it was this part) you generate 1ult for each hit. If your hits were critical it was 3 ulti I think then if you CC another 3 ulti. It needed some tweaks because skills as dark talons were very OP. AoE CC + DoT and it generated tons of ultimate when you hit 6 targets.

They were good times, on top of that Skoria had no cooldown when it came out Literally rained fire and ults dropped back to back.

Make DK's great again!

Bashev

Feanor wrote: »

On top of that healing worked the same, so AoE heals like Healing Springs generated ultimate really fast. And for a long time you could generate ultimate with it even if your targets were full HP and you didn't heal them at all. Most raids therefore constantly charged their ultimate to full before going to the next fight.

Yeah I forgot that healing also generated ulti. And the healing crits 3 times more.

GreenSoup2HoT

Trashs1 wrote: »

they all run plague doc + blood spawn to be tanky and get a ton of ult. u need a few of them to actually do dmg

not like the damage difference is that much with a dps set compared to plague though. hell the monster sets are why i slowly hate this game. you can build no damage and kill people with seleane or go full damage and get tons of tankiness with trollk/bloodspawn.

Sandman929

Feanor wrote: »

Remove AoE caps. Adjust skill power accordingly. Done.

Exactly. It doesn't need any special layering rules but it does need to be brought in line with other AoE ultis. Coordinated ultis and coordinated AoE damage will still be there after this change, but right now with the radius and the unblockable high damage EotS is the default and nothing really compares. Negate is what makes EotS so lethal.

GreenSoup2HoT

we gotta wait for next weeks patch.

GeorgeBlack

Remove all AoE skills from PvP just like you cannot use a siegeW in PvE. (Or at least all damaging skills while reducing healing received in all cyro players)

Let every player play a role. Be it engage disengage. Be it bruising. Be it kill the healer. Be it step up and take the heat, while archers and nukers support the advance. Oh ye.. and remove Mages wrath/explosion...

I never liked AoE plethora. AoE fighting should be a thing for one class in the game (in games that have more than 4 classes).
AOE skills should have high cooldowns for truly strategic moves that require true organisation.

AoE means zergs.
No AoE in Cyro would mean beautiful large scale battles.

Taonnor

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Remove all AoE skills from PvP just like you cannot use a siegeW in PvE. (Or at least all damaging skills while reducing healing received in all cyro players)

Let every player play a role. Be it engage disengage. Be it bruising. Be it kill the healer. Be it step up and take the heat, while archers and nukers support the advance. Oh ye.. and remove Mages wrath/explosion...

I never liked AoE plethora. AoE fighting should be a thing for one class in the game (in games that have more than 4 classes).
AOE skills should have high cooldowns for truly strategic moves that require true organisation.

AoE means zergs.
No AoE in Cyro would mean beautiful large scale battles.

No, not realy. If there is no AoE, my first thought is that unbalanced campaings will be more unbalanced, because smaller groups will not have a chance against larger groups. How will you solve this?

Dreyloch

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Remove all AoE skills from PvP just like you cannot use a siegeW in PvE. (Or at least all damaging skills while reducing healing received in all cyro players)

Let every player play a role. Be it engage disengage. Be it bruising. Be it kill the healer. Be it step up and take the heat, while archers and nukers support the advance. Oh ye.. and remove Mages wrath/explosion...

I never liked AoE plethora. AoE fighting should be a thing for one class in the game (in games that have more than 4 classes).
AOE skills should have high cooldowns for truly strategic moves that require true organisation.

AoE means zergs.
No AoE in Cyro would mean beautiful large scale battles.

And..... there it is. This is now (yet AGAIN) a nerf sorcs thread. Because who else really uses EoTs and Mages wrath? Hmm? Magicka NB's are the only other real class to use EoTS, and good ones are far and few between. Anyone on this thread that thinks EoTs needs a nerf is simply not battle aware enough to see it coming or to get out of the way. Simple solution folks...don't stand in stupid! Don't charge into a group that's charging up ulti's to unleash the AE bomb. L2 Mind your surroundings BRUCE!!

IxSTALKERxI

Dreyloch wrote: »

Anyone on this thread that thinks EoTs needs a nerf is simply not battle aware enough to see it coming or to get out of the way. Simple solution folks...don't stand in stupid! Don't charge into a group that's charging up ulti's to unleash the AE bomb. L2 Mind your surroundings BRUCE!!

Just because people make balance suggestions doesn't mean they are dieing to the skill and their post is nothing more than QQ. The guild I'm in pretty much dominated the destro meta when it came out during one tamriel - avoiding enemy bombs completely and counter bombing etc. None of that is the point though.

Basically the way I look at it is, if you aren't slotting destro ult in cyrodiil you are gimping yourself. If a specific skill becomes mandatory in pvp then it's usually a pretty good sign that things aren't balanced.

Mustard

How about no stackable dots period. Multiple curses is awesome!!!

MehrunesFlagon

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

The easiest way to explain it is this:

Damage from different players has always been intended to stack and healing from different players has always been intended to stack. That's generally how an MMO is meant to work. It encourages players to focus targets - or focus their aoe damage in the same area. Focusing targets / damage is one of the factors that decides which group is better than the other in pvp. On the flip side the opponents can stack aoe healing in area's where they are getting damaged, or on a player that is getting focused.

So making a special change just for one ultimate in the game without applying the same rules to other abilities such as batswarm etc. would be inconsistent. Applying it to every ability in the game would discourage teamwork and promote disorganized skill-less zerging. Also would make burst ultimate's a better alternative etc.

The eye of the storm meta is rather stale - eye of the storm needs to be brought more in line with the other alternative ultimate's in the game so you see some players using eye of the storm, others using batswarm, some using soul tether or dawnbreaker, etc. If survivability is an issue without destro ult than healing/utility needs to be looked into - earthgore nerf etc. Or a complete removal of damage AoE cap's.

removal of aoe caps is the best idea.

MehrunesFlagon

Mustard wrote: »

How about no stackable dots period. Multiple curses is awesome!!!

if it were a pvp only change yes,but the way things are currently balanced no.