Please Take Your Dungeon Roles Seriously

bhagwad

For vet dungeon finder, ff you're a tank, then I expect you to at the very least:

1. Taunt
2. Hold boss still
3. Stats are anything that allows you to accomplish the above two

If you're a DPS, I expect you to at the very least:

1. NOT have 30k health
2. Have at least 15k DPS

If you're a healer, I expect you at the very least:

1. Keep tank/DPS topped up and not let them remain at low health for more than a few seconds.
2. Pick up guys since you most likely have the passives for fast rezzing.

And DPS/Healer needs to have at least 17k health (But not like today when one DPS had 34k health!)

Out of the three, I think the tank is the most obvious when they're not doing their job. DPS can get away with a lot because there are no numbers telling us what their damage is. Healers of course we notice only if they're really bad...

And yet today when I said in group chat "Tank, please stand still and hold the boss in one place", I get the response "You do your job and let me do mine". But you're not doing your job! Your job is not just to aggro the boss' attention, but to hold the guy still and not have him chase you all across the map so the DPS can finish the fight quickly.

Why the hostility? You should be happy that someone's trying to politely teach you how to do a better job. Today in one instance, the healer didn't provide heals for several seconds even though we were not in combat (Beginning of Vaults of Madness when you fall through the hole), I asked "Heals please?", and got the response "stfu".

Bottom line: You're in the dungeon to fulfill a specific role. Please take it seriously, because the rest of us are going to work on that assumption. If I'm taking random trash damage as a DPS, I need to have faith in my healer that they're going to have my back and I don't need to stop my DPS rotation. I'm not talking about standing in red circles or something dumb like that - just random non-specific damage. Similarly, I bring AoE Dot spells under the assumption that the tank is going to hold the boss still.

We all build based on the role you choose. To take your job seriously!

AzraelKrieg

I'm going to dispute point 2 for healers. If a healer is rezzing, the group isn't getting heals. Healers should never be rez. That is either the DPS or the tanks job to get people up.

SirDopey

DPS - 17K health isn't necessary for DPS, some players will have more survivability with 11k health than other "freasher" players with 25k. I don't believe any of my DPS have more than 17k hp.

Combat metrics - still tells you group DPS so it's pretty easy to see whose not pulling their weight.

Healer's - it does sound a bit stuck up asking for heals outside of combat.

Now what I expect:

That people making "tutorial" posts include screenshots of 30k+ solo parses on skeleton.....

FrancisCrawford

AzraelKrieg wrote: »

I'm going to dispute point 2 for healers. If a healer is rezzing, the group isn't getting heals. Healers should never be rez. That is either the DPS or the tanks job to get people up.

While that makes sense as a general rule, somehow in this game rezzing has become a healer job, due to:

• A passive skill that helps rezzing.
• The focus on HoTs rather than burst heals, which makes the idea of healer rezzes not be totally ridiculous.

I still think that's silly, but it is what it is.

AzraelKrieg

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

AzraelKrieg wrote: »

I'm going to dispute point 2 for healers. If a healer is rezzing, the group isn't getting heals. Healers should never be rez. That is either the DPS or the tanks job to get people up.

While that makes sense as a general rule, somehow in this game rezzing has become a healer job, due to:

• A passive skill that helps rezzing.
• The focus on HoTs rather than burst heals, which makes the idea of healer rezzes not be totally ridiculous.

I still think that's silly, but it is what it is.

I do instinctively go for rezzes on my healer because of the resto staff ult but in a trial situation I can't be doing that. However, did have a near wipe on vet HM Molag Kena the other day and that quick rez from the templar passives and Kagrenac 5pc got the group up in seconds. But yeah, healers shouldn't be getting rezzes unless it's a last resort. Tanks will survive so they should get them first but if out of position it falls on someone else. A rez takes less time than a taunt takes to wear off.

firedrgn

17 k health is plenty if decent healer . I had a post about this awhile ago. Healers are not what they used to be.. I have had to self,heals and raise my health a little.

SirDopey

AzraelKrieg wrote: »

I'm going to dispute point 2 for healers. If a healer is rezzing, the group isn't getting heals. Healers should never be rez. That is either the DPS or the tanks job to get people up.

Completely agree, Healer should always be last to rez.

VaranisArano

Your advice is excellent for any groups wishing to complete Veteran dungeons skillfully and efficiently.

However, your advice is not necessary to simply complete a Veteran dungeon. The dungeon finder is a good way to find a group with which to complete a dungeon. If you want a guarantee that your group will complete that dungeon skillfully and efficiently, group with people you know such as guildmates.

Off topic, I had to laugh at your situation in Vaults of Madness. Seeing as how the combat doesn't start until you go through the gate and you have to wait on the Harvester to do her cutscene anyway, your healer might just as well save his/her magicka and let you naturally heal from the fall damage. That's a perfect example of when a healer doesn't actually have to heal you if they know the dungeon well.

paulsimonps

Gaming is Serious Business

Tryxus

bhagwad wrote: »

If you're a healer, I expect you at the very least:

1. Keep tank/DPS topped up and not let them remain at low health for more than a few seconds.
2. Manage your team's resources well by applying Resource steal debuffs and throwing an Orb/Shard occasionally

Fixed that for you.

vyndral13preub18_ESO

You make a fairly long List for a random dungeon.

My random list looks like this.

Tank
1. Hold Aggro on the big mean stuff.

Healer
1. Try not to let anyone die

Dps
1. Do enough damage so that I don’t fall asleep in the middle of a fight.


Pretty simple really. If you build you character with the assumption that this is the least you will get, you can make it through most dungeons. Sure you might not get those super leet dps numbers but you will probably make it through.

And you might have to stop your to hot to touch dps rotation to Rez that bad dps for the 9th time this fight, but hey it is funny knowing he is seconds away from the one shot he will never dodge.

Magdalina

AzraelKrieg wrote: »

I'm going to dispute point 2 for healers. If a healer is rezzing, the group isn't getting heals. Healers should never be rez. That is either the DPS or the tanks job to get people up.

I don't think there's a strict "healing order" in ESO tbh. Healing(effective healing - not spamming healing spells at full health, but actually replenishing lost health) takes priority to ressing, but standing there doing nothing as no one's health is even dropping and you're literally standing on top of the dead body does not. Also please please please don't be that healer who stands there watching me slowly die over the course of like good half a minute after tank and the other dps die and I get agro. Seriously, I'm kiting, shielding and giving you all the time I can SO YOU CAN RES, not just stand there "because you're the healer". Whoever can res without getting the team wiped, resses. Period.

Also, OP, you got it all wrong. Obviously they're only there to play how they want. How dare you be so selfish as to imply a TANK is actually expected to have a TAUNT, let alone other stuff?! What kind of madness is this, to imply that one queueing for a specific role must actually follow some weird rules that might totally not meet their preferred playstyle!.. What's next, demanding they step out of red just because you selfishly want them to?

disintegr8

I disagree with healer being the first call for rezz's - I think the healer should only rez if two players are dead or you are right near the corpse and nobody else is losing health.

I agree with DPS having 17-18k health, simply to prevent being one shotted and so the healer is not using all his energy for one player. I had a DPS on 11k health in a NORMAL dungeon once and I was using all my resources just to keep him alive until I gave him some food to use.

My tanks all have 30-35k health, which is what I like to see as a minimum. Have seen tanks come in with 15-20k health and my suspicion is they are simply queue jumping. The tank needs a taunt and I don't see a taunt skill on the werewolf skill line, so please stay out of werewolf form while tanking!

SydneyGrey

AzraelKrieg wrote: »

I'm going to dispute point 2 for healers. If a healer is rezzing, the group isn't getting heals. Healers should never be rez. That is either the DPS or the tanks job to get people up.

I was about to say this same thing. If the healer is rezzing and someone else dies because they weren't getting healed, then it just makes the problem worse.

WreckfulAbandon

^ this is what we're up against

akl77

Yea that’s what pugs are like, some are really bad some are good.
With the ones you described I’d just leave the group cos they never learn and it’s torturing for you, that’s not what I call having fun together.
But then I hope ZOS won’t get me another one hour penalty for leaving a group.
@ZOS_GinaBruno

raj72616a

i thought dps should be the one to rez?

tank is holding 100% uptime taunt on boss, and bosses do heavy attack now and then, so tank need to wait for the time frame between two heavy attack or knocking-back AoE to do the rez.

and for some group, once the healer stop healing people start dying. if i play on my templar tank i'd rather tell the healer to leave the rez to me.

anyway pug is pug.
if you get a weak dps in group, then do 35k single target dps yourself, that should be enough for most vet dungeon.
if you get weak healer and tank, then be a flawless conqueror yourself.

if you are really interested in teaching them the game beyond giving specific pointers abt the dungeon's mechanics, do that AFTER the run. you can craft them beginner sets, give build advice, show them a proper dps rotation, when you are out of dungeon.

stojekarcub18_ESO

MOST vet dungeons can be run with a mashup of anything. I understand your frustration, but just live and let live.

SirAndy

bhagwad wrote: »

... take your job seriously ...

You sound like a lot of "fun" to run with ...

Ertthewolf

I usually just Que with my wife and guildies so never run into many issues lol. I did do a run with some guys on Vet Darkshade II on my werewolf and had to solo every boss myself.....So yeah good times xD

raj72616a

Ertthewolf wrote: »

I usually just Que with my wife and guildies so never run into many issues lol. I did do a run with some guys on Vet Darkshade II on my werewolf and had to solo every boss myself.....So yeah good times xD

consider yourself lucky that group got you thru the jellyfish boss tentacle hentai hell?

Runefang

The only time I find it obvious that somebody is not doing their job is when the DPS is low. That's because with add-ons you can see how good the group is going overall, if I as the healer am doing more than 15% of the damage then I'm with a bad group.

I've done 50% of the damage in vet dungeons before... those are the groups I quit.

RANKK7

Yes, healing must be there, but a healer must provide buffs, debuffs and support to sustain, that's most important for me as a DD. If it's not hm tempest last boss or bloodroot, a dead member to rez is not so tragic at all, really.
On the other hand, being low on resources with no support whatsoever and/or do not benefit of ele drain... nope, that shouldn't happen.

Also, I'm not interested to comment the rest of the post, I pug a lot and I expect to see the most absurd things, pick up groups are what they are and it's necessary to adapt, just wanted to comment on the healer part since deaths doesn't mean bad healer, death could be due to moronic members moves or their inexperience about mechanics, or even a moment of inattention from the healer, it can happen but that doesn't mean bad healer, lack of support is bad.

TheShadowScout

Personally, I think its nifty enough if people don't blatantly stand in the red and expect the healer to somehow keep them alive anyhow... when healers heal instead of burning their magica "helping out" the DDs... when the tanks keep the aggro on them... when the DDs at least contribute nicely.

But hey, if someone wants to do a great run, then maybe they ought to pick a good team instead of making demands of PUGs, right?

Yarlenzey

bhagwad wrote: »

For vet dungeon finder, ff you're a tank, then I expect you to at the very least:

1. Taunt
2. Hold boss still
3. Stats are anything that allows you to accomplish the above two

If you're a DPS, I expect you to at the very least:

1. NOT have 30k health
2. Have at least 15k DPS

If you're a healer, I expect you at the very least:

1. Keep tank/DPS topped up and not let them remain at low health for more than a few seconds.
2. Pick up guys since you most likely have the passives for fast rezzing.

And DPS/Healer needs to have at least 17k health (But not like today when one DPS had 34k health!)

Out of the three, I think the tank is the most obvious when they're not doing their job. DPS can get away with a lot because there are no numbers telling us what their damage is. Healers of course we notice only if they're really bad...

And yet today when I said in group chat "Tank, please stand still and hold the boss in one place", I get the response "You do your job and let me do mine". But you're not doing your job! Your job is not just to aggro the boss' attention, but to hold the guy still and not have him chase you all across the map so the DPS can finish the fight quickly.

Why the hostility? You should be happy that someone's trying to politely teach you how to do a better job. Today in one instance, the healer didn't provide heals for several seconds even though we were not in combat (Beginning of Vaults of Madness when you fall through the hole), I asked "Heals please?", and got the response "stfu".

Bottom line: You're in the dungeon to fulfill a specific role. Please take it seriously, because the rest of us are going to work on that assumption. If I'm taking random trash damage as a DPS, I need to have faith in my healer that they're going to have my back and I don't need to stop my DPS rotation. I'm not talking about standing in red circles or something dumb like that - just random non-specific damage. Similarly, I bring AoE Dot spells under the assumption that the tank is going to hold the boss still.

We all build based on the role you choose. To take your job seriously!

If you were any good, you could carry any underperformers.
Stop taking a game so seriously.

Maybe you should not play dungeons, if you cant hack it...

Ulfgarde

You should be able to hard-carry with that street knowledge bro.

If it isn't a DLC dungeon, you can usually just blaze through it with 30k+ DPS and some shields / vigor.

zaria

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

AzraelKrieg wrote: »

I'm going to dispute point 2 for healers. If a healer is rezzing, the group isn't getting heals. Healers should never be rez. That is either the DPS or the tanks job to get people up.

While that makes sense as a general rule, somehow in this game rezzing has become a healer job, due to:

• A passive skill that helps rezzing.
• The focus on HoTs rather than burst heals, which makes the idea of healer rezzes not be totally ridiculous.

I still think that's silly, but it is what it is.

It depend a lot of the setting to, smooth fight but dd messed up boss mechanic and died, healer rez.
If I'm healing for my life, DD rez.
But general is an good rule that healer is first to rez

vyndral13preub18_ESO

Why are there so many post about who will Rez? This is a random dungeon. There is only a 1 in 4 Chance anyone in the group will even know how or be willing to Rez. If you, regardless of role, don’t know or Won’t Rez, There is a 0 in 4 chance.

AzraelKrieg

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

Why are there so many post about who will Rez? This is a random dungeon. There is only a 1 in 4 Chance anyone in the group will even know how or be willing to Rez. If you, regardless of role, don’t know or Won’t Rez, There is a 0 in 4 chance.

Because if someone dies getting them back up is important. And if it's the healer that's doing the rezzing someone else could die from the lack of heals going out.

vyndral13preub18_ESO

AzraelKrieg wrote: »

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

Why are there so many post about who will Rez? This is a random dungeon. There is only a 1 in 4 Chance anyone in the group will even know how or be willing to Rez. If you, regardless of role, don’t know or Won’t Rez, There is a 0 in 4 chance.

Because if someone dies getting them back up is important. And if it's the healer that's doing the rezzing someone else could die from the lack of heals going out.

Oh I get it. It just seems you have better luck on the random draw then me. I was simply pointing out that my experience with random groups has me believing that I am the only one ever in my groups that know how or that is willing to Rez. no matter what role I am running.

My personal favorite was on the final boss where half way through the fight he draws the sword from the middle of the room. Then he will from time to time lift someone into the air. And if the dps is to low, he will kill them. I forget the dungeon. But the mechanic is much the same as fg2 where someone gets chained downed, then killed if not saved.

In both these dungeons, yes it is bad and the group is under performing if this happens. But this is NOT a wipe. All you have to do is Rez the person killed. And now when it happens again, just Rez the next person. You can make it through both bosses ignoring the dps checks. Just Rez.

Yet it feels like I have spent hours lying on the ground screaming at my screen, please by all that is Holy someone just accidently walk over me and press the wrong button. But no I spend that time watching group after group after group die one by one over and over and over because it seems only I know how that strange magical function works.

AzraelKrieg

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

AzraelKrieg wrote: »

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

Why are there so many post about who will Rez? This is a random dungeon. There is only a 1 in 4 Chance anyone in the group will even know how or be willing to Rez. If you, regardless of role, don’t know or Won’t Rez, There is a 0 in 4 chance.

Because if someone dies getting them back up is important. And if it's the healer that's doing the rezzing someone else could die from the lack of heals going out.

Oh I get it. It just seems you have better luck on the random draw then me. I was simply pointing out that my experience with random groups has me believing that I am the only one ever in my groups that know how or that is willing to Rez. no matter what role I am running.

My personal favorite was on the final boss where half way through the fight he draws the sword from the middle of the room. Then he will from time to time lift someone into the air. And if the dps is to low, he will kill them. I forget the dungeon. But the mechanic is much the same as fg2 where someone gets chained downed, then killed if not saved.

In both these dungeons, yes it is bad and the group is under performing if this happens. But this is NOT a wipe. All you have to do is Rez the person killed. And now when it happens again, just Rez the next person. You can make it through both bosses ignoring the dps checks. Just Rez.

Yet it feels like I have spent hours lying on the ground screaming at my screen, please by all that is Holy someone just accidently walk over me and press the wrong button. But no I spend that time watching group after group after group die one by one over and over and over because it seems only I know how that strange magical function works.

That would be COH2 and yeah, that is a pain with lacklustre DPS. I try to provide some damage during that phase if I'm not the one caught to help break the shield.