Please Take Your Dungeon Roles Seriously

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

AzraelKrieg wrote: »

I'm going to dispute point 2 for healers. If a healer is rezzing, the group isn't getting heals. Healers should never be rez. That is either the DPS or the tanks job to get people up.

While that makes sense as a general rule, somehow in this game rezzing has become a healer job, due to:

• A passive skill that helps rezzing.
• The focus on HoTs rather than burst heals, which makes the idea of healer rezzes not be totally ridiculous.

I still think that's silly, but it is what it is.

This assumes a Templar healer, I Heal on a warden, where is my passive that helps rezzing?

raj72616a

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

AzraelKrieg wrote: »

I'm going to dispute point 2 for healers. If a healer is rezzing, the group isn't getting heals. Healers should never be rez. That is either the DPS or the tanks job to get people up.

While that makes sense as a general rule, somehow in this game rezzing has become a healer job, due to:

• A passive skill that helps rezzing.
• The focus on HoTs rather than burst heals, which makes the idea of healer rezzes not be totally ridiculous.

I still think that's silly, but it is what it is.

This assumes a Templar healer, I Heal on a warden, where is my passive that helps rezzing?

they might think the only choice is to wear SPC + Kagrenc set, master resto staff, no alternative, if you are taking your healer job seriously

ForsakenSin

there is nothing more that P$%#$# me off then

1) Tank that dose not taunt !!!
2) tank that F$%$#$%$ runs around the F$%$$% DAMM room when we drop our aoe on ground or ult and tank just walks the boss out of it! STOP DOING THAT

that is about it.. if healer is not that great and its not a difficult dungeon i just get my twilight out and heal when needed.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

raj72616a wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

AzraelKrieg wrote: »

I'm going to dispute point 2 for healers. If a healer is rezzing, the group isn't getting heals. Healers should never be rez. That is either the DPS or the tanks job to get people up.

While that makes sense as a general rule, somehow in this game rezzing has become a healer job, due to:

• A passive skill that helps rezzing.
• The focus on HoTs rather than burst heals, which makes the idea of healer rezzes not be totally ridiculous.

I still think that's silly, but it is what it is.

This assumes a Templar healer, I Heal on a warden, where is my passive that helps rezzing?

they might think the only choice is to wear SPC + Kagrenc set, master resto staff, no alternative, if you are taking your healer job seriously

That is not a passive, that is a set bonus, one that I actually have ran, wasn't that useful. I agree with the spirit of the op but then laying out demands is kind of too much.

WuffyCerulei

SirDopey wrote: »

DPS - 17K health isn't necessary for DPS, some players will have more survivability with 11k health than other "freasher" players with 25k. I don't believe any of my DPS have more than 17k hp.

Combat metrics - still tells you group DPS so it's pretty easy to see whose not pulling their weight.

Healer's - it does sound a bit stuck up asking for heals outside of combat.

Now what I expect:

That people making "tutorial" posts include screenshots of 30k+ solo parses on skeleton.....

11k health in vet dungeons equals getting 1-shot. A lot.

Mojmir

rule number 1:
if you havent done the dungeon on vet,say so.

Ertthewolf

raj72616a wrote: »

Ertthewolf wrote: »

I usually just Que with my wife and guildies so never run into many issues lol. I did do a run with some guys on Vet Darkshade II on my werewolf and had to solo every boss myself.....So yeah good times xD

consider yourself lucky that group got you thru the jellyfish boss tentacle hentai hell?

Soloed that damn thing as well....Took me like 20 mins and a lot of heal over time potions. Claws of Life is awesome on that fight as you get HP back based on disease damage dealt. And there is a lot of things to dot for sure...

Thunderknuckles

AzraelKrieg wrote: »

I'm going to dispute point 2 for healers. If a healer is rezzing, the group isn't getting heals. Healers should never be rez. That is either the DPS or the tanks job to get people up.

Well, and in some of those dungeons you're almost constantly being interrupted by AoE's going off everywhere. We did CoA II last night and one dps went down. I, the healer, was trying to get'em back up and simply could not due to constant interrupts. Well, or stand there in the stupid taking massive damage the whole time hoping I get that player back in action before going down myself.

Dragath

the forum is used by players that feel the need to be informed and/or take part on different topics.
op, the people you are talking about are not on the forum.
if you don't want to encounter random behaviour in your dungeons, don't use tools that will throw you in a dungeon together with random people.
this will never change.
i can understand your pov and sympathise with it somewhat, but you have to remember that there are a lot of players who just play this game for fun. they would never use a word like "job" in the way you did. they will never share your opinion and you will never come to terms with them.
they want to hop around, have fun and do crazy stuff. you want to do a "good job" in the game.
consider the fact that they might not have any fun playing your way, as would be the other way around, i assume.
they can play however they want, just as you do.
the only way to avoid more experiences like that, is to not rely on random players.

GabiAlex

AzraelKrieg wrote: »

I'm going to dispute point 2 for healers. If a healer is rezzing, the group isn't getting heals. Healers should never be rez. That is either the DPS or the tanks job to get people up.

As a DD I always told healers to let me doing the rezzing and they keep focusing on keeping the others alive. Also I move faster so I can reach those that by any chance die far from the group then and return to the fight in no time.

SoLooney

dont tell me how to play!

for real though, if youre a dps queueing as a tanj or healer, at least have good dps. dont be horrible at all 3 jobs cause youre gonna look like complete scum

LadyNalcarya

Dragath wrote: »

the forum is used by players that feel the need to be informed and/or take part on different topics.
op, the people you are talking about are not on the forum.
if you don't want to encounter random behaviour in your dungeons, don't use tools that will throw you in a dungeon together with random people.
this will never change.
i can understand your pov and sympathise with it somewhat, but you have to remember that there are a lot of players who just play this game for fun. they would never use a word like "job" in the way you did. they will never share your opinion and you will never come to terms with them.
they want to hop around, have fun and do crazy stuff. you want to do a "good job" in the game.
consider the fact that they might not have any fun playing your way, as would be the other way around, i assume.
they can play however they want, just as you do.
the only way to avoid more experiences like that, is to not rely on random players.

Well.. Perhaps youre taking the word "job" too seriously?
I mean, its a game, and our characters do various "jobs" - quests - for npcs... It doesnt mean it cant be fun, though.
Also, this is an RPG, role-playing game, so asking people to play the role they chose isnt unreasonable.

Dragath

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Dragath wrote: »

the forum is used by players that feel the need to be informed and/or take part on different topics.
op, the people you are talking about are not on the forum.
if you don't want to encounter random behaviour in your dungeons, don't use tools that will throw you in a dungeon together with random people.
this will never change.
i can understand your pov and sympathise with it somewhat, but you have to remember that there are a lot of players who just play this game for fun. they would never use a word like "job" in the way you did. they will never share your opinion and you will never come to terms with them.
they want to hop around, have fun and do crazy stuff. you want to do a "good job" in the game.
consider the fact that they might not have any fun playing your way, as would be the other way around, i assume.
they can play however they want, just as you do.
the only way to avoid more experiences like that, is to not rely on random players.

Well.. Perhaps youre taking the word "job" too seriously?
I mean, its a game, and our characters do various "jobs" - quests - for npcs... It doesnt mean it cant be fun, though.
Also, this is an RPG, role-playing game, so asking people to play the role they chose isnt unreasonable.

how do you come to the conclusion i take it too seriously? it's just an easy to spot difference in behaviour.
i also never said its unreasonable to ask them. i said he won't find them here and that there are different playstyles.

RANKK7

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Dragath wrote: »

the forum is used by players that feel the need to be informed and/or take part on different topics.
op, the people you are talking about are not on the forum.
if you don't want to encounter random behaviour in your dungeons, don't use tools that will throw you in a dungeon together with random people.
this will never change.
i can understand your pov and sympathise with it somewhat, but you have to remember that there are a lot of players who just play this game for fun. they would never use a word like "job" in the way you did. they will never share your opinion and you will never come to terms with them.
they want to hop around, have fun and do crazy stuff. you want to do a "good job" in the game.
consider the fact that they might not have any fun playing your way, as would be the other way around, i assume.
they can play however they want, just as you do.
the only way to avoid more experiences like that, is to not rely on random players.

Well.. Perhaps youre taking the word "job" too seriously?
I mean, its a game, and our characters do various "jobs" - quests - for npcs... It doesnt mean it cant be fun, though.
Also, this is an RPG, role-playing game, so asking people to play the role they chose isnt unreasonable.

It is unreasonable since in game it's not covered at all what those roles really means and what they mean in a veteran scenario, a big warning at least would be needed entering a vet dungeon the first time, something like: "this is advanced content that requires a good knowledge of your role and skills..." something along the line. IN REALITY though the newcomers only see the word "veteran" and things go this way:
"oh, it's veteran, I did it normal already and can do this no problem" or "oh, it's veteran, I leveled up so much by now questing and all, it's good to enter", this is in fact what often happens and it's not their fault.

But ZOS won't put any warning and the reason is very simple: that could imply explaining something in a dedicated tab about how the game actually works, with a proper appendix defining penetration, mitigation, the kind of damages, buffs, debuffs, the common acronyms even used in tooltips... in other words: the basic. Too much work, eh ZOS?

sevomd69

Healers should not be rezzing unless absolutely necessary... In most cases DPS should rez while healer tries to keep the rezzer alive...

Mazbt

Zos needs an in game tutorail about the basics of dungeons and how not to let your group down. Not looking for OPness myself but i am looking to complete a dungeon at a somewhat reasonable time and not wipe to trash since the other dps has zero aoe damage or just light attacking.

Zbigb4life

I would have to learn a lot, I want to do dungeons (even veteran ones) but I would hate to get in a group that doesn't explain the dungeon mechanics...

i want to learn these dungeons though.

ValkynSketha

It is zos fault, they should implement training instances for roles, combat and classes, i will say it again, problem with this game group content is new player thinking they can play how they want in eso (as ehm they advertised) which is not true, sure you can play how you want in overland content(sort of actually since as a 30k health bow/bow play how you want dd build you don't want to spend 100years clearing stuff), however, in group content you are in a group performing what is good for the group, at least what is at the bottom of the good.

strebor2095

Yes, the tank should have a taunt. And generally they should spin the boss 180 and keep them still. However, there are some bosses that won't stay still, ones that teleport, and ones that have untauntable attacks.


DPS can get away with a sneaky 10k dps in normals, but in Vets yeah, 15k is nice.

Kimba_Do

As a healer I've had to break off a rez more times than I can count in order to restore health to remaining party members. That's just how it is. I typically don't rez on 'first man down' unless no one else needs healing at that moment.

TL; DR: I rez when I can, but heals take priority.

Niobium

Zbigb4life wrote: »

I would have to learn a lot, I want to do dungeons (even veteran ones) but I would hate to get in a group that doesn't explain the dungeon mechanics...

i want to learn these dungeons though.

Jump in and start learning. When you zone in, tell them in group you don't know the dungeon and would like to know the mechanics - most people are willing to share their knowledge.

Personally I would *much* rather take a minute to explain what is going to happen in a fight to a new guy because then that's one more person who knows the fight next time - and maybe they'll be able to explain it to the next new guy.

As for the OP - I can understand the frustration. What is fun for Person A can be a nightmare for Person B. In an MMO it's going to be difficult to have all personalities line up and all competencies line up that a run can be smooth and enjoyable (although I'm very happy when the stars align and this happens).

Expect that people who sign for a role should be able to fulfill it, but accept that it's likely not going to happen on any regular basis with pugs.

And as others have said, as a healer I will rez only if I can do so without losing another. I will not sacrifice a live player for one that didn't move in time.

FoolishHuman

raj72616a wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

AzraelKrieg wrote: »

I'm going to dispute point 2 for healers. If a healer is rezzing, the group isn't getting heals. Healers should never be rez. That is either the DPS or the tanks job to get people up.

While that makes sense as a general rule, somehow in this game rezzing has become a healer job, due to:

• A passive skill that helps rezzing.
• The focus on HoTs rather than burst heals, which makes the idea of healer rezzes not be totally ridiculous.

I still think that's silly, but it is what it is.

This assumes a Templar healer, I Heal on a warden, where is my passive that helps rezzing?

they might think the only choice is to wear SPC + Kagrenc set, master resto staff, no alternative, if you are taking your healer job seriously

Kagrenac is the worst set for healers outside of PvP, they should not res until both DPS are dead. I wish people would stop recommending that set for new healers. And that passive is meant for DPS templars or PvP.

AzraelKrieg

ValkynSketha wrote: »

It is zos fault, they should implement training instances for roles, combat and classes, i will say it again, problem with this game group content is new player thinking they can play how they want in eso (as ehm they advertised) which is not true, sure you can play how you want in overland content(sort of actually since as a 30k health bow/bow play how you want dd build you don't want to spend 100years clearing stuff), however, in group content you are in a group performing what is good for the group, at least what is at the bottom of the good.

And coddle players even more than they are already doing so?

RANKK7

AzraelKrieg wrote: »

ValkynSketha wrote: »

It is zos fault, they should implement training instances for roles, combat and classes, i will say it again, problem with this game group content is new player thinking they can play how they want in eso (as ehm they advertised) which is not true, sure you can play how you want in overland content(sort of actually since as a 30k health bow/bow play how you want dd build you don't want to spend 100years clearing stuff), however, in group content you are in a group performing what is good for the group, at least what is at the bottom of the good.

And coddle players even more than they are already doing so?

Coddle? Way to improperly use a word, this is about giving the basic of the game. Btw, since you think so, you shouldn't come here to complain about who rez who and lack of dps here and there, many people have no idea how the game works and since you don't want them coddled, deal with it.

AzraelKrieg wrote: »

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

AzraelKrieg wrote: »

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

Why are there so many post about who will Rez? This is a random dungeon. There is only a 1 in 4 Chance anyone in the group will even know how or be willing to Rez. If you, regardless of role, don’t know or Won’t Rez, There is a 0 in 4 chance.

Because if someone dies getting them back up is important. And if it's the healer that's doing the rezzing someone else could die from the lack of heals going out.

Oh I get it. It just seems you have better luck on the random draw then me. I was simply pointing out that my experience with random groups has me believing that I am the only one ever in my groups that know how or that is willing to Rez. no matter what role I am running.

My personal favorite was on the final boss where half way through the fight he draws the sword from the middle of the room. Then he will from time to time lift someone into the air. And if the dps is to low, he will kill them. I forget the dungeon. But the mechanic is much the same as fg2 where someone gets chained downed, then killed if not saved.

In both these dungeons, yes it is bad and the group is under performing if this happens. But this is NOT a wipe. All you have to do is Rez the person killed. And now when it happens again, just Rez the next person. You can make it through both bosses ignoring the dps checks. Just Rez.

Yet it feels like I have spent hours lying on the ground screaming at my screen, please by all that is Holy someone just accidently walk over me and press the wrong button. But no I spend that time watching group after group after group die one by one over and over and over because it seems only I know how that strange magical function works.

That would be COH2 and yeah, that is a pain with lacklustre DPS. I try to provide some damage during that phase if I'm not the one caught to help break the shield.

That is not such pain, the pain there is to keep the ghosts alive for hm in case the tank is unable to keep them away so they get killed, that's the pain. There is plenty of time there to rez if the damage is weak.

Keep_Door

Lol no.

bebynnag

your confusing the word templar and healer

templars have passives that increase res speeds, a templar can also perform any role in a dungeon

a healer should have a resto staff helps team with healing (people should never pug without a self heal), resource management this role can be peerformed by any class

your welcome!

Magdalina

Thunderknuckles wrote: »

AzraelKrieg wrote: »

I'm going to dispute point 2 for healers. If a healer is rezzing, the group isn't getting heals. Healers should never be rez. That is either the DPS or the tanks job to get people up.

Well, and in some of those dungeons you're almost constantly being interrupted by AoE's going off everywhere. We did CoA II last night and one dps went down. I, the healer, was trying to get'em back up and simply could not due to constant interrupts. Well, or stand there in the stupid taking massive damage the whole time hoping I get that player back in action before going down myself.

This is why you first get yourself an Annulment(and perhaps a HoT too), then go on ressing That coupled up with the cp passive reducing dmg taken when ressing is pretty op.

I agree you shouldn't res at the cost of everyone else's lives but I really wish people would let that whole "I'm a healer and my job is to heal, therefore I shall not res, bash or do any other silly nonsense" thing go. Seriously, it's not as simple as that. There're dps races in this game, some of which can actually be challenging with pugs, and the loss of 6 seconds' worth of dps can literally mean a wipe. There're mechanics that keep the dps otherwise busy. There're situations where healer and 1 dps are the only ones alive and dps gets boss agro. Oh and if you see a bashable mechanic, whatever your role is, for the love of the Eight PLEASE BASH. Let me tell you, there's nothing more maddening than trying to get an inexperienced pug through vet CoS, have everyone but me and healer die on dunmer boss, kite him for literally full half a minute(his heavies if connected were one shotting me with 30k dmg. So I was kind of too busy avoiding that to res) and inevitably die because the healer would neither res nor bash the chain down attack. 10 times in a row. We made it through the whole dungeon eventually btw - once we got rid of that healer and got a proper one.

Healer's main job is to keep everyone alive, dps' main job is to do dps. A dps ressing is an inevitable dps loss. If (and only if) a healer can res without risking teammembers dying, then it's both everyone alive and no dps lost so this is perfect.

Merlin13KAGL

Thunderknuckles wrote: »

AzraelKrieg wrote: »

I'm going to dispute point 2 for healers. If a healer is rezzing, the group isn't getting heals. Healers should never be rez. That is either the DPS or the tanks job to get people up.

Well, and in some of those dungeons you're almost constantly being interrupted by AoE's going off everywhere. We did CoA II last night and one dps went down. I, the healer, was trying to get'em back up and simply could not due to constant interrupts. Well, or stand there in the stupid taking massive damage the whole time hoping I get that player back in action before going down myself.

Magdalina wrote: »

This is why you first get yourself an Annulment(and perhaps a HoT too), then go on ressing That coupled up with the cp passive reducing dmg taken when ressing is pretty op.

I agree you shouldn't res at the cost of everyone else's lives but I really wish people would let that whole "I'm a healer and my job is to heal, therefore I shall not res, bash or do any other silly nonsense" thing go. Seriously, it's not as simple as that. There're dps races in this game, some of which can actually be challenging with pugs, and the loss of 6 seconds' worth of dps can literally mean a wipe. There're mechanics that keep the dps otherwise busy. There're situations where healer and 1 dps are the only ones alive and dps gets boss agro. Oh and if you see a bashable mechanic, whatever your role is, for the love of the Eight PLEASE BASH. Let me tell you, there's nothing more maddening than trying to get an inexperienced pug through vet CoS, have everyone but me and healer die on dunmer boss, kite him for literally full half a minute(his heavies if connected were one shotting me with 30k dmg. So I was kind of too busy avoiding that to res) and inevitably die because the healer would neither res nor bash the chain down attack. 10 times in a row. We made it through the whole dungeon eventually btw - once we got rid of that healer and got a proper one.

Healer's main job is to keep everyone alive, dps' main job is to do dps. A dps ressing is an inevitable dps loss. If (and only if) a healer can res without risking teammembers dying, then it's both everyone alive and no dps lost so this is perfect.

@Thunderknuckles , what constant interrupts? There are a total of 4 attacks in the first phase:

1. Light attacks, if tank doesn't have aggro.
2. Lich Crystals, total of four, timed, and can be counted off, sidestepped, and then no longer an issue.
3. Skull attack, 1 in 3 chance it will be you (would be 1 in 4, but someone's down.)
4. Teleport + Point Blank - if you're in it, you dodge out first. If you're not in it, you ignore.

Apart from that, top off your group, perhaps a HoT as well, hold block, rez...

You can block and rez. This will reduce incoming damage and prevent most interrupts. There's also a CP tree that reduces damage taken while rezzing.

@Magdalina A dps rezzing is a temporary dps loss. A dead dps is a guaranteed DPS loss. Two dead DPS or a dead tank is likely a wipe, so unless you are certain the remaining members can hold there own for a few, it's still better for dps or tank to rez.

Thunder, as to the prospect of healer should never rez, that, too is situational. In some cases it's perfectly valid for the healer to get the rez for various reasons, such as the speed bonus when the tank is down, while the DPS kite. Sometimes the tank can eat damage, keep aggro, and get the rez then step away.

There is no cut a dry rule for every group and situation. It all depends on what is going on and what your group can handle. Adjust accordingly.

Jamini

Anyone saying healers or tanks should be regularly rezzing outside of really, REALLY bad situations is blatantly wrong. I'm sorry.

Tanks - Keeping up taunt will take up a fair chunk of time, also hey are most likely going to have red centered on them or heavy attacks that require they block. The window for rezzing on many, many boss fights is absolutely tiny for the, and shouldn't even be considered on some unless one has Magma shell or another defensive ult ready.

Healers - Unless your tank is solid with self-sustain and healing, the healer should really be keeping them topped off with health or resources. IF they are, then the healer should be protecting the immobile DD that is reviving. A revive from a healer should come directly after they Hot and shield (or, for wardens, started directly after casing Healing Thicket as the duration of the spell lasts slightly longer than rez time.

DPS - Well, you aren't keeping people alive OR getting hit by heavy attacks/inturrupts that will stop your revive attempt. The only real threat to you are potential red fields, that can be negated by a simple shield before reviving. Assuming the fight isn't a hard DPS check (Of which, there are perhaps five total in the game) dropping damage to get party members up is far more important.

----

Now there are plenty of situations that are exceptions, but 9/10 time the person who should be using soul gems on allies is a DPS. End of story.

RedFireDisco

Tanks can not stand stationary in A LOT of situations.

Much of the time there are big AoE's that need to be kited, even with 35k health and full heavy armor.

In a perfect world, tanks could turn and stand, but many new dungeon mechanics (and some of the old ones) require consistent movement and strategy.

For me, 9/10 problems are weak DPS. 9/10 complaints are about healers. Someone's passing the buck.