Please Take Your Dungeon Roles Seriously

Magdalina

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Thunderknuckles wrote: »

AzraelKrieg wrote: »

I'm going to dispute point 2 for healers. If a healer is rezzing, the group isn't getting heals. Healers should never be rez. That is either the DPS or the tanks job to get people up.

Well, and in some of those dungeons you're almost constantly being interrupted by AoE's going off everywhere. We did CoA II last night and one dps went down. I, the healer, was trying to get'em back up and simply could not due to constant interrupts. Well, or stand there in the stupid taking massive damage the whole time hoping I get that player back in action before going down myself.

Magdalina wrote: »

This is why you first get yourself an Annulment(and perhaps a HoT too), then go on ressing That coupled up with the cp passive reducing dmg taken when ressing is pretty op.

I agree you shouldn't res at the cost of everyone else's lives but I really wish people would let that whole "I'm a healer and my job is to heal, therefore I shall not res, bash or do any other silly nonsense" thing go. Seriously, it's not as simple as that. There're dps races in this game, some of which can actually be challenging with pugs, and the loss of 6 seconds' worth of dps can literally mean a wipe. There're mechanics that keep the dps otherwise busy. There're situations where healer and 1 dps are the only ones alive and dps gets boss agro. Oh and if you see a bashable mechanic, whatever your role is, for the love of the Eight PLEASE BASH. Let me tell you, there's nothing more maddening than trying to get an inexperienced pug through vet CoS, have everyone but me and healer die on dunmer boss, kite him for literally full half a minute(his heavies if connected were one shotting me with 30k dmg. So I was kind of too busy avoiding that to res) and inevitably die because the healer would neither res nor bash the chain down attack. 10 times in a row. We made it through the whole dungeon eventually btw - once we got rid of that healer and got a proper one.

Healer's main job is to keep everyone alive, dps' main job is to do dps. A dps ressing is an inevitable dps loss. If (and only if) a healer can res without risking teammembers dying, then it's both everyone alive and no dps lost so this is perfect.

@Thunderknuckles , what constant interrupts? There are a total of 4 attacks in the first phase:

1. Light attacks, if tank doesn't have aggro.
2. Lich Crystals, total of four, timed, and can be counted off, sidestepped, and then no longer an issue.
3. Skull attack, 1 in 3 chance it will be you (would be 1 in 4, but someone's down.)
4. Teleport + Point Blank - if you're in it, you dodge out first. If you're not in it, you ignore.

Apart from that, top off your group, perhaps a HoT as well, hold block, rez...

You can block and rez. This will reduce incoming damage and prevent most interrupts. There's also a CP tree that reduces damage taken while rezzing.

@Magdalina A dps rezzing is a temporary dps loss. A dead dps is a guaranteed DPS loss. Two dead DPS or a dead tank is likely a wipe, so unless you are certain the remaining members can hold there own for a few, it's still better for dps or tank to rez.

Thunder, as to the prospect of healer should never rez, that, too is situational. In some cases it's perfectly valid for the healer to get the rez for various reasons, such as the speed bonus when the tank is down, while the DPS kite. Sometimes the tank can eat damage, keep aggro, and get the rez then step away.

There is no cut a dry rule for every group and situation. It all depends on what is going on and what your group can handle. Adjust accordingly.

Um...no, you can't block and res o.O Ressing drops block. Resuming block interrupts the res.

I think you're overrating the importance of heals for 99% of this game's content. I mean assuming we're talking pugs that's valid, I've healed pugs where I couldn't even barswap to cast Drain because the second I stopped spamming heals they'd all drop dead, but assuming we're talking in general...if a tank cannot survive 6 seconds without heals/buffs(perhaps outside of vet trials or something, and literally 1-2 mechanics in vet dlc dungeons which healer should anticipate), they need to l2tank. Seriously. If a dps cannot survive 6 seconds without heals...well that highly depends on the dungeon, but in 90% of dungeon scenarios this is dps's fault. Outside of certain mechanics in vet dlc dungeons, if I'm running with friends, it's usually/often healer that resses because we really don't need (many) heals so why lose dps for something you don't need?

It is all highly dependant on group and the fight, that's why I feel it's just as wrong to say "healer should never res" as it is to say "healer should always res". Whoever can res with minimal losses for the group, should res. If no one can res, then no one can res, sacrificing your life to possibly res someone is usually not worth it.

Gandrhulf_Harbard

bhagwad wrote: »

We all build based on the role you choose. To take your job seriously!

Former Omega Templar here, my build is designed to do just two things:

1) DPS & Heal & Tank with one set of skills and gear.
2) Make everyone else look redundant.

I do take those jobs very seriously thanks.

Now, if you haven't got a toon that can DPS & Heal & Tank ALL on one build/set of gear please go Learn To Play and stop telling me that I need to "git gud".

All The Best

Merlin13KAGL

Magdalina wrote: »

Um...no, you can't block and res o.O Ressing drops block. Resuming block interrupts the res.

That's funny, 'cause I do it all the time.

It's the difference between eating a little damage and completing the rez vs eating the full damage and getting interrupted/knocked back/knocked down.

Edit: You may not get the damage reduction portion of block (I haven't checked, tbh, as I'm rezzing), but I know it can prevent the interrupt, so long as you have the stam for it.

LadyNalcarya

Dragath wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Dragath wrote: »

the forum is used by players that feel the need to be informed and/or take part on different topics.
op, the people you are talking about are not on the forum.
if you don't want to encounter random behaviour in your dungeons, don't use tools that will throw you in a dungeon together with random people.
this will never change.
i can understand your pov and sympathise with it somewhat, but you have to remember that there are a lot of players who just play this game for fun. they would never use a word like "job" in the way you did. they will never share your opinion and you will never come to terms with them.
they want to hop around, have fun and do crazy stuff. you want to do a "good job" in the game.
consider the fact that they might not have any fun playing your way, as would be the other way around, i assume.
they can play however they want, just as you do.
the only way to avoid more experiences like that, is to not rely on random players.

Well.. Perhaps youre taking the word "job" too seriously?
I mean, its a game, and our characters do various "jobs" - quests - for npcs... It doesnt mean it cant be fun, though.
Also, this is an RPG, role-playing game, so asking people to play the role they chose isnt unreasonable.

how do you come to the conclusion i take it too seriously? it's just an easy to spot difference in behaviour.
i also never said its unreasonable to ask them. i said he won't find them here and that there are different playstyles.

I mean, no one actually plays this game because its a job or something (well, maybe some streamers do). You say that people who dont care about roles and whatever play for fun, this kinda implies that those who do play for some other reason. But its not like this, everyone plays for fun. Some enjoy challenge, some prefer good company, etc.
But I really doubt that being stuck in a vet dungeon is actually fun for anyone.
Also, things that OP mentioned have nothing to do with playstyle. Tank, for example, can be a hybrid nightblade, or magicka dk, or maybe stamina warden... Pretty much anything. But in any case, tank needs to use a taunt. Buffs/debuffs are nice to have, but they arent 100% nessesary in dungeons. On the other hand, holding aggro is a defining trait of tanking role, the rest is up to player, its just a matter of their goals and preferences.

RANKK7 wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Dragath wrote: »

the forum is used by players that feel the need to be informed and/or take part on different topics.
op, the people you are talking about are not on the forum.
if you don't want to encounter random behaviour in your dungeons, don't use tools that will throw you in a dungeon together with random people.
this will never change.
i can understand your pov and sympathise with it somewhat, but you have to remember that there are a lot of players who just play this game for fun. they would never use a word like "job" in the way you did. they will never share your opinion and you will never come to terms with them.
they want to hop around, have fun and do crazy stuff. you want to do a "good job" in the game.
consider the fact that they might not have any fun playing your way, as would be the other way around, i assume.
they can play however they want, just as you do.
the only way to avoid more experiences like that, is to not rely on random players.

Well.. Perhaps youre taking the word "job" too seriously?
I mean, its a game, and our characters do various "jobs" - quests - for npcs... It doesnt mean it cant be fun, though.
Also, this is an RPG, role-playing game, so asking people to play the role they chose isnt unreasonable.

It is unreasonable since in game it's not covered at all what those roles really means and what they mean in a veteran scenario, a big warning at least would be needed entering a vet dungeon the first time, something like: "this is advanced content that requires a good knowledge of your role and skills..." something along the line. IN REALITY though the newcomers only see the word "veteran" and things go this way:
"oh, it's veteran, I did it normal already and can do this no problem" or "oh, it's veteran, I leveled up so much by now questing and all, it's good to enter", this is in fact what often happens and it's not their fault.

But ZOS won't put any warning and the reason is very simple: that could imply explaining something in a dedicated tab about how the game actually works, with a proper appendix defining penetration, mitigation, the kind of damages, buffs, debuffs, the common acronyms even used in tooltips... in other words: the basic. Too much work, eh ZOS?

I agree that ZOS should put more effort in explaining their own game, and the difficulty curve certainly needs some work.
However, dungeons are a social activity, and a lot of things can be learned from other players. Many experienced players dont mind teaching newbies as long as they are honest about their experience (or lack of thereof). It only takes a few minutes to explain basic tanking/healing mechanics, and that would be enough for 90+% of the content.

tommalmm

Just one thing. People who struggle with their roles generally do not read forums... Or look up any ESO related information to begin with.

As for healer rezzing. I'm a big fan of that. I try to rezz everytime I can. I can do that so much quicker than any non templars and I just know when it is safe to rezz (no mechanics to execute). Team looses muuuuch less that way. You may miss a buff but won't loose a lot of additional DPS (with one DPS down already). The thing is, as a healer, you should know fight mechanics as well as tank does (or should). There are rare moments when you have to heal non stop (like low DPS out of platform on HM vCOA2 Skoria fight, which will often be 3x healing springs + two other skills or resto heavy, repeat). Even if some medium damage is incoming, you can 3x healing springs. It will top everyone off, then be active while you're rezzing, preventing everyone else from dropping low. Remember, that most of the time your HoTs (regen + ritual, maybe minor lifesteal i you or tank used it) will be enough for 99% of the fight (unless you're that bad healer that doesn't bother with HoTs in dungeons, obviously in trials that's not an issue).

Just as with tank, you anticipate big damage, you pop igneous shield, even if the damage is of "true damage" type, people might end up low on hp, but with enough shields to give healer some time to react, even if heal was CCd/knocked.

The thing is, mediocre DDs do not always know when it's safe to let healer rezz, and when it's them who should absolutely do that. With no way to easily communicate on PC (there is group voice channel on consoles, not used much anymore, though), it might be hard to let people know when and what to do. That's probably why a general rule in PUGs is that DDs rezz and with both DDs down, the tank rezz.

As for DD health requirement. Anything above 17.2-18.4k (5/1/1 with undaunted mettle to magsorc with pets without ebon/minor toughness) is useless on DD in dungeons (might be ok for VMA or vet trials progression). Most stamina DDs can get away with much lower than 16k health, stamsorcs can get away with pretty much any health (but it's a little bit uncomfortable, tbh). Any magicka player that plays defensive (shields on cooldown) can get away with any health. So yeah, it really depends on player and proficiency, but generally more health won't save a bad DD from death, while the lowest value really depends on what is comfortable for a player (how well s/he can avoid or mitigate damage).

For me a comfort zone is 16k for stamina and 17k on magicka (with tank applying at least minor maim, let alone weakening, it prevents oneshots with shields down).

zaria

Jamini wrote: »

Anyone saying healers or tanks should be regularly rezzing outside of really, REALLY bad situations is blatantly wrong. I'm sorry.

Tanks - Keeping up taunt will take up a fair chunk of time, also hey are most likely going to have red centered on them or heavy attacks that require they block. The window for rezzing on many, many boss fights is absolutely tiny for the, and shouldn't even be considered on some unless one has Magma shell or another defensive ult ready.

Healers - Unless your tank is solid with self-sustain and healing, the healer should really be keeping them topped off with health or resources. IF they are, then the healer should be protecting the immobile DD that is reviving. A revive from a healer should come directly after they Hot and shield (or, for wardens, started directly after casing Healing Thicket as the duration of the spell lasts slightly longer than rez time.

DPS - Well, you aren't keeping people alive OR getting hit by heavy attacks/inturrupts that will stop your revive attempt. The only real threat to you are potential red fields, that can be negated by a simple shield before reviving. Assuming the fight isn't a hard DPS check (Of which, there are perhaps five total in the game) dropping damage to get party members up is far more important.

----

Now there are plenty of situations that are exceptions, but 9/10 time the person who should be using soul gems on allies is a DPS. End of story.

Healer should rez if group don't take heavy damage, some boss fights or you have an weak tank who need lots of heal.

However far more of an issue is to find the dead player, in some fight this is often the reason why people don't rez.

Giraffon

Learn to play all roles. Only then will you see the light.

anitajoneb17_ESO

If you have expectations, I expect you at the very least to NOT use the dungeon finder but run with friends and guildies instead.

Oh, and, as a reminder : ESO is a GAME, not a job.

Nogawd

My main is a healer. I also have a tank and 2 dps. I have shields and self heals on all of them. You asking for heals after the drop at VoM comes off as an arrogant diva. I would leave your group before the first mob after that statement.

W0lf_z13

its dps's job to rez ... saying this as a dps myself ... healers role is to keep people alive and provide support, if someone falls the dps should break from dpsing to rez

Takes-No-Prisoner

AzraelKrieg wrote: »

I'm going to dispute point 2 for healers. If a healer is rezzing, the group isn't getting heals. Healers should never be rez. That is either the DPS or the tanks job to get people up.

Yeah as someone tanking, I prefer to do this instead of Healer. Healer should chill away from red circles and heal.

Jaimeh

I believe that there are certain things that a person with a given role should (or shouldn’t) do, but I also believe that once you have these rules down, you are able to bend them as well, because it’s good to have a reactive playstyle, and be able to take over in ‘oh crap’ moments, or in an instance that requires you to perform outside of your assigned role.

Flameheart

bhagwad wrote: »

For vet dungeon finder, ff you're a tank, then I expect you to at the very least:

1. Taunt
2. Hold boss still
3. Stats are anything that allows you to accomplish the above two

If you're a DPS, I expect you to at the very least:

1. NOT have 30k health
2. Have at least 15k DPS

If you're a healer, I expect you at the very least:

1. Keep tank/DPS topped up and not let them remain at low health for more than a few seconds.
2. Pick up guys since you most likely have the passives for fast rezzing.

And DPS/Healer needs to have at least 17k health (But not like today when one DPS had 34k health!)

Actually this isn't a bad list. I actually agree on the dps limit too when it comes to veteran instances.

I may add:

-DDs should rez in the first line
-healers shouldn't just heal, they should deliver some support too (actually I expect not everything possible, but an ele drain here or a shard/bubble there would already be sufficient).

Flameheart

RedFireDisco wrote: »

Tanks can not stand stationary in A LOT of situations.

Much of the time there are big AoE's that need to be kited, even with 35k health and full heavy armor.

In a perfect world, tanks could turn and stand, but many new dungeon mechanics (and some of the old ones) require consistent movement and strategy.

For me, 9/10 problems are weak DPS. 9/10 complaints are about healers. Someone's passing the buck.

Actually they can in 98% of all situations I know (and I tanked every 4-man-vet-instance multiple times, except the new HotR ones). You can even bear the AoEs from the final bosses in Spindleclutch 1, Tempest Islands, Elden Hollow 1 and even from Selene, if proper geared and in block. And even if you wanne make the healer's job easier and avoid them you just need to go a few steps back and forth again without any need to move the boss (many bosses are ranged types of bosses, they won't move around as long as they can hit stuff from range).

The only encounter I know where you really have to back up is the last boss in Blessed Crucible. The lava streams will even melt a meta geared tank within 2 seconds (or maybe you might be able to perma shield through, but it's just not worth the ressources), but the boss won't move during that special attack, just back up again after he finished it.

At WGT final boss you just have to move in a small circle with the lighting walls and pull out the boss once at 25%.

For all other situations there are ranged taunt, chains/portals or Swarm Mother.

To be more precise...the rule is not that a tank should not move at all, but should not move the boss and mobs around like a headless chicken train. As a tank you may go one or two steps to the side to get something into range for a chain and mobs still won't move (or move that much that they leave groundDoT areas from DDs like fire walls, eruption, liquid lightning etc.)

HeroOfNone

When playing with PUGS or new people I recommend the following guidelines:

Tank Priorities
DPS Priorities
Healer Priorities

After you fight a while you can adjust more into secondary priorities.

Also the tank's job isn't really to hold a boss in one spot, there are fights specifically designed to make you move to locations to hit a switch, deal with adds, and other stuff. It may hurt DPS, but it's better than standing in red.

Danksta

^ My expectation for PUG dungeon runs. No, not the guy above me, what I wrote. I didn't write anything you say? Exactly.

Dragath

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Dragath wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Dragath wrote: »

the forum is used by players that feel the need to be informed and/or take part on different topics.
op, the people you are talking about are not on the forum.
if you don't want to encounter random behaviour in your dungeons, don't use tools that will throw you in a dungeon together with random people.
this will never change.
i can understand your pov and sympathise with it somewhat, but you have to remember that there are a lot of players who just play this game for fun. they would never use a word like "job" in the way you did. they will never share your opinion and you will never come to terms with them.
they want to hop around, have fun and do crazy stuff. you want to do a "good job" in the game.
consider the fact that they might not have any fun playing your way, as would be the other way around, i assume.
they can play however they want, just as you do.
the only way to avoid more experiences like that, is to not rely on random players.

Well.. Perhaps youre taking the word "job" too seriously?
I mean, its a game, and our characters do various "jobs" - quests - for npcs... It doesnt mean it cant be fun, though.
Also, this is an RPG, role-playing game, so asking people to play the role they chose isnt unreasonable.

how do you come to the conclusion i take it too seriously? it's just an easy to spot difference in behaviour.
i also never said its unreasonable to ask them. i said he won't find them here and that there are different playstyles.

I mean, no one actually plays this game because its a job or something (well, maybe some streamers do). You say that people who dont care about roles and whatever play for fun, this kinda implies that those who do play for some other reason. But its not like this, everyone plays for fun. Some enjoy challenge, some prefer good company, etc.
But I really doubt that being stuck in a vet dungeon is actually fun for anyone.
Also, things that OP mentioned have nothing to do with playstyle. Tank, for example, can be a hybrid nightblade, or magicka dk, or maybe stamina warden... Pretty much anything. But in any case, tank needs to use a taunt. Buffs/debuffs are nice to have, but they arent 100% nessesary in dungeons. On the other hand, holding aggro is a defining trait of tanking role, the rest is up to player, its just a matter of their goals and preferences.

RANKK7 wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Dragath wrote: »

the forum is used by players that feel the need to be informed and/or take part on different topics.
op, the people you are talking about are not on the forum.
if you don't want to encounter random behaviour in your dungeons, don't use tools that will throw you in a dungeon together with random people.
this will never change.
i can understand your pov and sympathise with it somewhat, but you have to remember that there are a lot of players who just play this game for fun. they would never use a word like "job" in the way you did. they will never share your opinion and you will never come to terms with them.
they want to hop around, have fun and do crazy stuff. you want to do a "good job" in the game.
consider the fact that they might not have any fun playing your way, as would be the other way around, i assume.
they can play however they want, just as you do.
the only way to avoid more experiences like that, is to not rely on random players.

Well.. Perhaps youre taking the word "job" too seriously?
I mean, its a game, and our characters do various "jobs" - quests - for npcs... It doesnt mean it cant be fun, though.
Also, this is an RPG, role-playing game, so asking people to play the role they chose isnt unreasonable.

It is unreasonable since in game it's not covered at all what those roles really means and what they mean in a veteran scenario, a big warning at least would be needed entering a vet dungeon the first time, something like: "this is advanced content that requires a good knowledge of your role and skills..." something along the line. IN REALITY though the newcomers only see the word "veteran" and things go this way:
"oh, it's veteran, I did it normal already and can do this no problem" or "oh, it's veteran, I leveled up so much by now questing and all, it's good to enter", this is in fact what often happens and it's not their fault.

But ZOS won't put any warning and the reason is very simple: that could imply explaining something in a dedicated tab about how the game actually works, with a proper appendix defining penetration, mitigation, the kind of damages, buffs, debuffs, the common acronyms even used in tooltips... in other words: the basic. Too much work, eh ZOS?

I agree that ZOS should put more effort in explaining their own game, and the difficulty curve certainly needs some work.
However, dungeons are a social activity, and a lot of things can be learned from other players. Many experienced players dont mind teaching newbies as long as they are honest about their experience (or lack of thereof). It only takes a few minutes to explain basic tanking/healing mechanics, and that would be enough for 90+% of the content.

you misinterpreted what i wrote.
there is no point at all that suggests that people who take their role seriously don't have fun. maybe you should read it again.
i said some people play it JUST for fun. they have fun regardless of their role or being good at it. they are not interested in information that tells them how to play the game. they have fun without searching for builds, looking for BIS and such. they don't visit the forum. that was the main point.
maybe my english wasn't on point with the playstyle thing. it has nothing to do with classes or roles. it's the way you interact with the game. it's not about having a taunt, the proper heals or anything like that. they see a skill that looks cool, they like it, they use it. again, they use what makes them happy, regardless if it is subpar or not. they do not care about informed choices.
getting stuck at a veteran dungeon is also not a huge issue, because it will create choices. A, they want to be able to do it, which means they will go and inform themselves. problem solved.
B, they think "ah, what the hell. lets just do something else for now. maybe next time!" and go their way. they take it lightly and might have a different experience next time.
you seem to be stuck in the impression that others have to conform in certain ways, which is not the case. its not a bannable offense to play that way.

CherryCake

Nope. Heal dont rez. If youre busy rezing a dude that stood in the red circles, the other dude that stays in the red circles will be dead.

RANKK7

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

RANKK7 wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Dragath wrote: »

the forum is used by players that feel the need to be informed and/or take part on different topics.
op, the people you are talking about are not on the forum.
if you don't want to encounter random behaviour in your dungeons, don't use tools that will throw you in a dungeon together with random people.
this will never change.
i can understand your pov and sympathise with it somewhat, but you have to remember that there are a lot of players who just play this game for fun. they would never use a word like "job" in the way you did. they will never share your opinion and you will never come to terms with them.
they want to hop around, have fun and do crazy stuff. you want to do a "good job" in the game.
consider the fact that they might not have any fun playing your way, as would be the other way around, i assume.
they can play however they want, just as you do.
the only way to avoid more experiences like that, is to not rely on random players.

Well.. Perhaps youre taking the word "job" too seriously?
I mean, its a game, and our characters do various "jobs" - quests - for npcs... It doesnt mean it cant be fun, though.
Also, this is an RPG, role-playing game, so asking people to play the role they chose isnt unreasonable.

It is unreasonable since in game it's not covered at all what those roles really means and what they mean in a veteran scenario, a big warning at least would be needed entering a vet dungeon the first time, something like: "this is advanced content that requires a good knowledge of your role and skills..." something along the line. IN REALITY though the newcomers only see the word "veteran" and things go this way:
"oh, it's veteran, I did it normal already and can do this no problem" or "oh, it's veteran, I leveled up so much by now questing and all, it's good to enter", this is in fact what often happens and it's not their fault.

But ZOS won't put any warning and the reason is very simple: that could imply explaining something in a dedicated tab about how the game actually works, with a proper appendix defining penetration, mitigation, the kind of damages, buffs, debuffs, the common acronyms even used in tooltips... in other words: the basic. Too much work, eh ZOS?

I agree that ZOS should put more effort in explaining their own game, and the difficulty curve certainly needs some work.
However, dungeons are a social activity, and a lot of things can be learned from other players. Many experienced players dont mind teaching newbies as long as they are honest about their experience (or lack of thereof). It only takes a few minutes to explain basic tanking/healing mechanics, and that would be enough for 90+% of the content.

In pick up groups the mechanics of the place can be easily explained and I'm sure many of us are more than glad to do so when there is the need.
About the rest it's quite impossible to do that in a few minutes, some quick advice of course, though a healer not even carry a destro staff may utterly ignore that ability and the whole destro skill line for that matter, you would also explain why major breach is a true benefit, that's a perfect example of basic info about how the game works and it seems nothing but the time is what it is in those situations and also the willing to listen since the word "veteran" as I'm sure you agree, doesn't mean nothing, a clear warning would make newcomers better aware that the content is not a normal bosses version with more hp.
So I totally agree with you about explaining something on the fly, the true basic should be covered in a dedicated tab and a clear warning too would be useful.
This comes from someone who is tired of people blaming players who are just entering a dungeon completely unaware they will be considered a disgrace.
@Zos you are not even able to give us a decent character tab and that speaks quite loud, there are no excuses.

RANKK7

I truly wonder why this discussion has been moved to the appropriate section, while IN THE MEANTIME:

Nightblades skills... thread - Vigor, Caltrops... thread - My VMA run... threads

(these are just some examples, there are a lot more)

are STILL there in the General Section.

iiYuki

AzraelKrieg wrote: »

I'm going to dispute point 2 for healers. If a healer is rezzing, the group isn't getting heals. Healers should never be rez. That is either the DPS or the tanks job to get people up.

Agreed, healer should be keeping everyone else alive. The tank shouldnt either IMO since he should be keeping the boss away from the dead player and trying to stop it targeting others so the DPS can get straight in and get them up ASAP.

MehrunesFlagon

bhagwad wrote: »

For vet dungeon finder, ff you're a tank, then I expect you to at the very least:

1. Taunt
2. Hold boss still
3. Stats are anything that allows you to accomplish the above two

If you're a DPS, I expect you to at the very least:

1. NOT have 30k health
2. Have at least 15k DPS

If you're a healer, I expect you at the very least:

1. Keep tank/DPS topped up and not let them remain at low health for more than a few seconds.
2. Pick up guys since you most likely have the passives for fast rezzing.

And DPS/Healer needs to have at least 17k health (But not like today when one DPS had 34k health!)

Out of the three, I think the tank is the most obvious when they're not doing their job. DPS can get away with a lot because there are no numbers telling us what their damage is. Healers of course we notice only if they're really bad...

And yet today when I said in group chat "Tank, please stand still and hold the boss in one place", I get the response "You do your job and let me do mine". But you're not doing your job! Your job is not just to aggro the boss' attention, but to hold the guy still and not have him chase you all across the map so the DPS can finish the fight quickly.

Why the hostility? You should be happy that someone's trying to politely teach you how to do a better job. Today in one instance, the healer didn't provide heals for several seconds even though we were not in combat (Beginning of Vaults of Madness when you fall through the hole), I asked "Heals please?", and got the response "stfu".

Bottom line: You're in the dungeon to fulfill a specific role. Please take it seriously, because the rest of us are going to work on that assumption. If I'm taking random trash damage as a DPS, I need to have faith in my healer that they're going to have my back and I don't need to stop my DPS rotation. I'm not talking about standing in red circles or something dumb like that - just random non-specific damage. Similarly, I bring AoE Dot spells under the assumption that the tank is going to hold the boss still.

We all build based on the role you choose. To take your job seriously!

there is one minor detail I would like to touch on.When I play I,and many others think the healer should not res unless the dps are incapable(dead most likely).While I can understand the desire for fast resses. I tend to think it will result in more death if the healer is unable to heal.

IwakuraLain42

FoolishHuman wrote: »

raj72616a wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

AzraelKrieg wrote: »

I'm going to dispute point 2 for healers. If a healer is rezzing, the group isn't getting heals. Healers should never be rez. That is either the DPS or the tanks job to get people up.

While that makes sense as a general rule, somehow in this game rezzing has become a healer job, due to:

• A passive skill that helps rezzing.
• The focus on HoTs rather than burst heals, which makes the idea of healer rezzes not be totally ridiculous.

I still think that's silly, but it is what it is.

This assumes a Templar healer, I Heal on a warden, where is my passive that helps rezzing?

they might think the only choice is to wear SPC + Kagrenc set, master resto staff, no alternative, if you are taking your healer job seriously

Kagrenac is the worst set for healers outside of PvP, they should not res until both DPS are dead. I wish people would stop recommending that set for new healers. And that passive is meant for DPS templars or PvP.

Kag's is actually a very nice set for new healers. Not so much for the rez-bonus but the other stats work nicely for a healer. Of course other sets like SPC, Work or Mending are better but these take time to farm and in the meantime Kag's is a nice substitute.

IwakuraLain42

RedFireDisco wrote: »

Tanks can not stand stationary in A LOT of situations.

Much of the time there are big AoE's that need to be kited, even with 35k health and full heavy armor.

In a perfect world, tanks could turn and stand, but many new dungeon mechanics (and some of the old ones) require consistent movement and strategy.

The point isn't about the tank standing still but keeping the boss still, these are two different things. Take Velidreth for an example: you really should try avoid getting hit by the orbs but that can easily be done while keeping her in place.

Sovi3tKitsch

SydneyGrey wrote: »

AzraelKrieg wrote: »

I'm going to dispute point 2 for healers. If a healer is rezzing, the group isn't getting heals. Healers should never be rez. That is either the DPS or the tanks job to get people up.

I was about to say this same thing. If the healer is rezzing and someone else dies because they weren't getting healed, then it just makes the problem worse.

Agreed. DPS should always rez unless both of them are down. In that event it's up to the tank or healer and they can work that out themselves depending on the situation.

xRIVALENx

Whatever role is doing the rez is situational and relative to your group dynamics, there really isn't an order. The real question one should ask themselves, is it safe for me to rez in this situation. If the answer to the question is no then it may be more detrimental to the group to even attempt it.

Artis

AzraelKrieg wrote: »

While that makes sense as a general rule, somehow in this game rezzing has become a healer job, due to:

• A passive skill that helps rezzing.
• The focus on HoTs rather than burst heals, which makes the idea of healer rezzes not be totally ridiculous.

I still think that's silly, but it is what it is.

I do instinctively go for rezzes on my healer because of the resto staff ult but in a trial situation I can't be doing that. However, did have a near wipe on vet HM Molag Kena the other day and that quick rez from the templar passives and Kagrenac 5pc got the group up in seconds. But yeah, healers shouldn't be getting rezzes unless it's a last resort. Tanks will survive so they should get them first but if out of position it falls on someone else. A rez takes less time than a taunt takes to wear off.

False. Outside of trials healer should always be the one rezzing, because losing even more DPS = dealing with more stuff. For example, vet HM Kena - a dps loss means a storm atro to deal with. And if it's up during the rez, then who's gonna kill it, too?

raj72616a wrote: »

i thought dps should be the one to rez?

That's a common misconception as you can see from the thread. Dealing DPS is the main priority, if a healer can rez without letting anyone die, he should rez. If a healer has to spam heal, then he can't get distracted and somebody else should rez. In 4man dungeons DPS and especially tank should be able to survive for a few seconds and active hots should be enough.

Even when people say the healer shouldn't rez and DPS should - they intuitively follow the main rule, which is : Dealing DPS (and fishing the fight asap) is the main priority. They just intuitively know that if a healer rezzes and DPS dies during that time, then even more DPS was lost. However, as I said, outside of some trials there's almost no need for a healer to constantly heal.

Storymaster

bhagwad wrote: »

Please Take Your Dungeon Roles Seriously

Oompuh

If you want to take dungeons seriously, stop using group finder

idk

OP was fine until he got to the healer.

Keep the tank and dps topped off. Healing isn't about keeping health bars filled. It's about keeping enough health in everyone. However, poorly skilled players often take huge damage that often leads to one shots.

More importantly, with pugs, which is what OP is posting about, you really want the healer to red when the tank and dps are doing almost everything they can to get killed? If someone has died in a rough group it can be a challenge to Rez someone without the others falling themselves.

Yes, an experienced healer knows when they can Rez and when they cannot. However, that same experienced healer can probably out dps the 15k dps group and certainly would be dps if the entire group is experienced since they won't need much in the way of heals.

Players need to learn. Just like other players need to understand they will be dealing with other player that need the experience to learn. Don't like it then form your own group outside of GF.