Some thoughts on Master/Maelstrom/Asylum weapons; a number just aren't very good

Joy_Division

On the whole, I think ZoS is overestimating the value of the Master/Maelstrom/Asylum reward weapons.

At the end of the day, if players are going to use these, they have to give up an set bonus, and a potentially powerful one at that if it’s a full 5-piece or Monster set. There is an opportunity cost; the bonus does not come for free; it merely replaces something else we can use instead. And, of course, the skill has to be slotted and actually used in the first place. And even if you're using it, it's likely going to be only once every 8 or 10 seconds. @Gilliamtherogue has a video here demonstrating just trying to use the new Asylum dual wield weapons makes for a less versatile build that does less DPS.

Before this patch, these weapons gave the user something above and beyond the modified skill that compensated for a lost set bonus. Master Staves gave upwards to 1000+ magicka bonus. Maelstrom Destruction staves granted 189 spell damage. Even if I did not specialize or even use the augmented skill, these weapons provided a versatile and tangible bonus that was always active, under every situation, and in every fight.

Now that’s gone. ZoS and other people are trying to tell me that since now I can put a spell/weapon damage glyph on the weapon, it doesn’t matter. Yes it does. First of all, there is no glyph that adds 1000+ magicka. Secondly it takes a perfect rotation with perfect animation cancelling to get the 174 spell damage from that glyph. And I can't use a poison. So the glyph loses versatility, is not always active, needs to proc, and is not as good as what it is replacing.

Most of all, I can put that glyph on a generic crafted weapon and get exactly the same benefits. The only thing these weapons are actually doing is augmenting a single ability. That’s it. And since I could put that glyph on a weapon that completes a 5th piece set bonus or allows me to use a full Monster set, the only reason to use a Master/Maelstrom/Aslyum weapon is if the actual augmentation of the ability is better than the full set bonus that you’re potentially losing.

That’s probably not going to happen with too many of these weapons.

Seen from this perspective, the value of many of these reward weapons is lacking. Why would I ever use a Master’s Inferno staff that just adds a one-time 1500 damage to an expensive skill that many DPS ignore in the first place? That’s just +187 DPS if I have a perfect rotation. I’m doing 35,000+ DPS on a target dummy! The benefit is imperceptible. Why would I trade that for a full Julianos set that will increase the damage of every skill I cast (which are further increased by common buffs and other raid multipliers) or just wear a Grothdar set that will do even more than 1500 damage per second to everything around me? You’d never do it. Even if you’re not completing a full set bonus, a 2nd, 3rd, and 4th piece bonus is still going to better. +1100 magicka (that is further amped by other % bonuse) or nearly 4% critical chance to everything? Yes, please.

The point: the benefits for using these weapons are so specialized, only augmenting a single ability, that the ability better be versatile and good enough to want to use in the first place and the actual augmentation needs to “wow.” The Sword and Shield and dual wield sets exacerbate this issue as you’re giving up two set piece bonus.

For this, I’ll use a color code to indicate how strong I think each weapon bonus is. My evaluation does not view these sets in isolation, rather it compares that bonus to a potential armor set bonus(es) that the user could have instead.

Goldish – very strong
Purple – good; probably worth using in some instances
Blue – worth testing; perhaps sacrificing better all-around performance for some specialization
Green – too situational; you’re more versatile and stronger in more situations more often when not using this weapon.
Red – Trap; it’s bad

Master’s

• Bow for PvP (For PvE the Maelstrom is a lot stronger) +301 weapon damage to targets that affected by my poison arrow. That’s great because the skill is good and offers a terrific benefit to all my damage skills. That’s the model all these weapons should have!
• Two-Handed: adds a one-time 2000 damage to a skill rarely used in DPS rotations in the first place. That’s +200 DPS assuming a perfect rotation. It’s terrible.
• Duel Wield: Increases Twin slashes bleed by 1500 per tick. I got to give up two set-piece bonuses to get this, but that’s tempting. Twin slashes is a good skill and that’s +1500 DPS (that also effects heals I’d assume). It makes me want to test this, which is precisely what a reward weapon should do.
• Sword & Shield: Heal for 2500 damage, +2500 spell and physical restiance. Most tanks don’t need this and will want group support so won’t use it. That being said, Puncture is a good skill and +2500 heal on demand and some resistance is nothing to sneeze at. I can see a PvP build using this, although it’s two set-piece bonuses so they’d be giving up something.
• Destruction staff: Already covered. Spell is expensive (even with the bonus). PvP sorcs desperate for a stun use this, but I think it's just because of that, they are desperate, more than this staff is great. I never got requests to do so many DSA runs from sorcs when frags stunned. PvPers who like this spell probably like this staff, but I think they'd get better value elsewhere (such as the Domihaus 1-piece set that adds 1100 magicka and stamina that scales).
• Restoration Staff: +258 stamina restored on the first tick of Healing Springs. Somewhat overrated, it’s not much stamina at all. I could cast this 4 times and it wouldn’t even cover half the cost for a tank who wanted to use Heroic Slash. I’d have to cast Springs 14 times to cover the cost of a single dodge roll. On stationary fights with burn phases like the Mage boss, it's strong for sure. But most Boss fights are not that and the staff offers marginal benefit for magicka raids so it's value is going to fluctuate and can sometimes be Green . When I used this as a healer, it was mostly because of the 1000+ magicka I got for simply equipping it.

Maelstrom

• Bow is PvE gold, Increase volley damage 161 per tick (further increase 56 every tick). Very narrow, yet very strong. Good design.
• Two-Handed: Critical charge deals a total extra 4300 damage over 5 seconds. It was always just a nice but hardly overpowering bonus two PvPers. That damage is divided by two and further mitigated by resistances. It was used in PvP for the +189 weapon damage and poison use. Wear a Monster set or a 4th piece bonus that gives 129 weapon damage instead.
• Duel Wield: adds a one-time 2003 weapon damage buff to next DoT ability used after flurry. My stamina PvE friends tell me this set was not worth it since they were nerfed even when the weapons provided the bonus damage for equipping them. They certainly aren’t going to give up 2 set-piece bonuses now.
• Sword and shield: Restore an additional 2000 magicka and stamina if a fully charged heavy attack is competed 5 seconds after Low slash. Not bad. I’d consider that because Low slash is a good skill and getting both resources is a nice boon.
• Destruction Staff: Basic attacks deal an additional 1341 damage to enemies in my Wall of Elements. Archetypically a PvE “back bar” weapon, albeit a good one. The skill is strong and it amps up something I potentially do every second independent of the skill.
• Restoration Staff: restore 800 magicka when critically heal an ally with regeneration. 4 second cooldown. This is iffy. Regeneration is too cumbersome to use in raids, but in smaller scale content, maybe. You’re never going to get this to proc on cooldown. You’re going to get more Magicka from a Lich staff and a 5 piece Seducer. I'd use it if I were running 4 man content and if the alternative was a generic staff, but that's not exactly a ringing endorsement.

Asylum

• Bow: Adds 50% more direct damage to Snipe, Poison Arrow, and Magnum shot to enemies hit by Acid Spray. I know very little about ESO bow play. I do know Acid Spray is not a popular ability to begin with and I have a hard time seeing how this weapon would be comparable to PvE Maelstrom bow and PvP Master bow. I hestiated to make this red but people are telling me it needs help.
• Two Handed: Generate up to 15 Ultimate depending on how much execute damage is done with Reverse Slice. Strong effect for a commonly used skill. It’s something I’d want to try.
• Duel Wield: Add 10 seconds to Rend, Twin Slashes, and Blade cloak when you deal damage with Whirlwind. I’m not giving up two set-piece bonuses to just add some time to DoTs.
• Sword and Shield: Gain 2000 magicka when absorbing a spell projectile with Defensive Stance. Gain 5000 magicka if Defensive Stance expires without reflecting anything. While that bonus sounds strong, it’s not free. You’ve got to give up 2 set piece bonuses and that’s going to have more value than some situational magicka return.
  I use Defensive Posture, but I won’t be using this set. Right now, my templar uses Wizard’s Riposte, Valkyn Skoria, Amberplasm, and dual Willpower swords – that’s 3 full set bonuses. I’d have to lose one of these full set bonus plus an additional set just to equip this set that gives me some magicka that I do just fine without right now. Lose the Valkyn? That means losing 1200 health and irreplaceable burst damage. No way. Lose the amberplasm? Why? That’s already giving me a big magicka regen bonus and stamina regen bonus (both further amped by other percents) and 129 spell damage. That’s a huge downgrade in every respect. If I drop Wizard’s Riposte, then I am losing minor main on every enemy that attacks me (important as I’m wearing light armor) and a magicka regen bonus that by itself gives me nearly 60% of that big 5000 return the sets gives. Full piece armor bonuses are powerful, you want them – and another 4th piece – more than this set
  
  The one build that this set might be blue, and it’s just a might, be good is a no damage troll DK tank in PvP. But if they go this route, that means no Desert Rose, no Reactive, no Impregnable, or no Bloodspawn, so I’m not sure it’s strictly better as it’s not like a troll tank needs this set. Besides, I don’t think this is the sort of build we should be encouraging
  .
• Destruction Staff: in PvP if you want to use Force Pulse (better with sorcerer or NB). Also, one PvE DPS, probably NB, is going to want to have this in a raid. But it's limited in many other aspects. and the imperfect version is bad. Every second of cast of Force Pulse will always proc concussion, burning, and chilled. The set that got nerfed before people even actually tried and tested it. These status effects are not that hard to put on an enemy (tank/skills/sets will maim and an infused or charged glyph will concuss people) so why am I giving up a Monster set (say a clannfear that will maim, do damage, and proc my necropotance) for this? The imperfect staff will probably merely overwrite already existing effects since you have to spam the skill just to get the benefit.
• Restoration Staff: when you cast Combat Prayer (Healers do not use the other morph), the next cost of Grand Healing, Regeneration, or Steadfast Ward is reduced by 50%. This is terrible. I find it telling that the Force Siphon skill is so bad, it was forgotten about. Healers have almost always eschewed selfish buffs or additional healing in favor of things that support the group. If I really need to resource management from a staff, I’m going to use a Maelstrom. The Asylum weapon is thus redundant. How about using Blessing of Protection (the base skill), you get the effect of both morphs?

It can be hard to rate these as there is usually a big difference betwee PvP and PvE. And some people will just value certain skills more than others. Nevertheless, an conclusion can be drawn: the spell augmentations aren’t bad, in fact some of them are quite good. Rather it’s to get those augmentations, we must potentially give up very desirable armor piece bonuses that strengthen our entire build and every spell we cast. For weapons that offer benefits beyond the actual skill (such as the Master’s Bow), these are the preferred design and generally desirable. Those weapons that are just offering a small boon to a skill we might cast only once every 8 or 10 seconds, wow, that benefit has to be *really* good, in particular if the spell to begin with just isn’t very strong (such as the Master’s Destruction Staff). These such weapons are almost all decon fodder.

Izaki

I don't get how you put the vMA Bow in Purple and yet put the Master's Bow in Yellow. I really think that you need to divide your "evaluations" of each weapon between PvE and PvP. Otherwise, somethings, like the one I mentioned, don't make sense. The Master's bow isn't great in PvE, but amazing in PvP and its the exact opposite for the vMA bow (I mean this thing basically doubles the DPS output of Endless Hail, which is basically 4k extra DPS from 1 item).

Master's Resto... In the days of 3-5 stamina builds per group and in the days where sustain is tough... Sure, it doesn't seem like much on paper, but I can tell you as a stamina DD, that in fights like the Mage, the extra stamina is VERY noticeable. I'd give it at least a blue or purple.

I also think that you didn't go hard enough on the Asylum weapons. The Bow and the Daggers are in the Red in every single application. Even the vMA daggers are better than the Asulym ones.

The Asylum staff is actually better on a Magblade than it is on Sorc. And it will definitely be mandatory for at least 1 DD to have this staff in a raid group next patch (because the easier it is to proc the status effects on top of the already present elemental damage, the better). I would rather have a Magblade run it, than a MagSorc. Why? Because Magblades don't need to heavy attack to sustain their pet rotation (because they don't have a pet rotation lol). Now obviously, its foolish to just say that NBs never have to heavy attack, they obviously do, especially in places like vHoF, but they still have far better sustain than Sorcs and thus much better suited to use this staff.

But I do agree with all the other points in this post

Xsorus

I back bar VMA restro and it actually does proc quite a bit, enough that I think it may be bugged and just proc every tic

SodanTok

VMA and Master bows are the perfect examples of how unique weapons are supposed to be designed.
They either should buff everything you do by amount worth losing monster/5th bonus or one particular skill you are already using (or could be using in that situation). Obviously the numbers could sometimes work in or against favor of using them, which can be tweaked.

While Asylum bow is perfect example of how unique weapons aren't supposed to be designed. Forcing you to use one skill to improve other. Even worse if one of those skill you don't want to use and would not use under any circumstances (other than too big of DPS gain to pass). And contrary to the good designed weapons, this is not number game. It looks bad to use it, feels bad to use it and changing numbers would just force people to use it despite the design.

Toast_STS

Two-Handed: Critical charge deals a total extra 4300 damage over 5 seconds. It was always just a nice but hardly overpowering bonus two PvPers. That damage is divided by two and further mitigated by resistances. It was used in PvP for the +189 weapon damage and poison use. Wear a Monster set or a 4th piece bonus that gives 129 weapon damage instead.

I haven't played this PTS cycle yet. Does anyone know if this DoT can still crit? Seeing as how it went from an enchantment to a set piece I could see them nerfing it by removing the crit chance.

kojou

Preach Joy!

I read almost all of your posts and find them very insightful and well thought out including this one. I wish ZoS would focus on putting all trials sets in the "Blue" range or better. It really hurts morale when you just complete something that required a lot of effort, practice, and skill and you get something in the "Red – Trap; it’s bad" category.

Joy_Division

@Izaki

I didn't divide the stuff into PvE and PvP because the post is long enough as it is. But I think what you say is important so I'll make some distinctions.

I haven't been able to test the Asylum stuff so I'm uncomfortable to give them the lowest rating and just say they are terrible. Gilliam's video showed a slight DPS decrease, which while is dumb and shouldn't happen, is still just slight and thus matches what I say about Green, you're going to be a little better off not using it. If these weapons are actually worse than doing just a little less DPS, then that is something to be communicated more strongly to ZoS.

PvE and PvP matter a lot with the Asylum Destruction staff so it's hard to make make a judgment without writing a book. You're probably right in a raid setting a NB is better than a sorc using this, but in PvP sorcs have no spammable, whereas a NB has a good one that heals, so evaluation are going to depend on context. In any event, I don't think this was tested vigorously before it got nerfed and the imperfect staff is way too weak.

I will make some edits based on your good feedback.

Ladislao

A good topic, but not without flaws.

Firstly, we should determine, we consider the weapons in both PVP and PVE, or separately. For example, in the first case maelstrom bow is blue-purple. In the second case - gold for PVE and green for PVP.

Secondly, I understand that this is not a completely objective opinion. But close to that. And still I would like to point out something that I clearly disagree with.

Maelstrom DW is far from bad. The only problem is the incorrect work with Poison Arrow after recent patch. I think it should be at least blue, maybe even purple. Your friends cheated you.

I couldn't call master destro trash as well. 1500 damage for Destructive Touch is about 2400 spell damage w/o any requirements. Don't forget it boost aoe damage of lightning Destructive Clench. Plus 400-500 magicka reduction per cast is a nice little thing. Should be green or blue.

BUT as I said it's a great post for the development team. The main idea is not to make these weapons strong but to make it interesting for playing around. It must change, modify skills, and not add the value of the damage.

Cinbri

Tbh Asylum snb is so strong for magplar/magdk that I afraid zos will nerf it same as destro staff. Fingers crossed it wont happen.

Derra

Joy_Division wrote: »

PvE and PvP matter a lot with the Asylum Destruction staff so it's hard to make make a judgment without writing a book.

From what i have tested personally (imperfect is worthless) for a sorc using a destro resto setup in a 5 5 1 configuration or a 2 5 3 1 1 configuration perfected asylum destro is as close to bis as you can possibly get.
The only drawback is the effects not being applied to shielded targets - which is somewhat circumvented by sorcs "bursty" nature of doing dmg.

It has tremendous value against anything else and can quite comfortably be compared to most 5p setbonuses you´d exchange it for.

5amber/shackle + 5riposte/lich backbar + 1 domi + weapon of choice is really solid as in this configuration it comes in exchange for a monster set 2p to which it can definetly compete.
For this specific (and quite popular) setup i´d put it as gold as it 100% outperforms the weaponalternatives being maelstrom- or masters staff.

The most dramatic impact of the weapon is noticeable in sorcs weakest matchup (vs templars that are capable of purging). You can effectively cover your whole burst combo with siphoner + 3 statuseffects + eventual disease glyph (if not fighting argonian). It´s a matchwinner.

Maulkin

Derra wrote: »

5amber/shackle + 5riposte/lich backbar + 1 domi + weapon of choice is really solid as in this configuration it comes in exchange for a monster set 2p to which it can definetly compete.

That's exactly the set up I was going for in the next patch with Asylum Destro. Until they nerfed the non-Perfect to the ground and kept the Perfect behind Vet HM that is.

Derra

Maulkin wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

5amber/shackle + 5riposte/lich backbar + 1 domi + weapon of choice is really solid as in this configuration it comes in exchange for a monster set 2p to which it can definetly compete.

That's exactly the set up I was going for in the next patch with Asylum Destro. Until they nerfed the non-Perfect to the ground and kept the Perfect behind Vet HM that is.

Tbh - at this point i just think they should have kept the old versions.
The new non-perfect is instant decon while the new perfected is only good in pvp (as far as i understand it so far).

It´s depressing.

Maulkin

Derra wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

5amber/shackle + 5riposte/lich backbar + 1 domi + weapon of choice is really solid as in this configuration it comes in exchange for a monster set 2p to which it can definetly compete.

That's exactly the set up I was going for in the next patch with Asylum Destro. Until they nerfed the non-Perfect to the ground and kept the Perfect behind Vet HM that is.

Tbh - at this point i just think they should have kept the old versions.
The new non-perfect is instant decon while the new perfected is only good in pvp (as far as i understand it so far).

It´s depressing.

I think the Perfect Asylum is still good for Trial groups with 2-3 Sorcs in them. The up-time on the Concussed effect from the Force Shock will be high enough to liberate people from running Shock enchants on one bar. Thus Berserker enchants on the infused back bar and Drain Magicka/Stamina poisons on the nirnhorned front bar will result in higher up-time of Berserker and better resource sustain to maintain optimal rotations. Which will lead in increased DPS. That's what I predict anyway, we'll see how the meta develops.

As for PvP, yeah it's depressing. Especially with the vMA staves also nerfed. You either farm a Perfect Asylum destro, or you have to rethink your build altogether.

EDIT: And the non-Perfect Asylum staves are instant decon like you said. 0 value. Might as well remove them from the game and increase gold drops for nAS or something.

Tyrion87

Good read @Joy_Division, good read!

I am disappointed the most with Asylum Destro after recent nerfs and don't plan to use it at all. My hype over this staff just ended. Simply because my sorc won't sustain this force pulse spamming to get the uptime high enough that it would make Asylum Destro worth slotting in place of a trial staff. Before Morrowind this weapon would be amazing but now... it's far from the power of e.g. Maelstrom Destro after release of Orsinium.

Not to mention the imperfect versions lol... who will be even using them? Three force pulses in a row? In vHoF? And many other places where Zeni decided to introduce these filthy resources draining mechanics on top of the sustain nerfs...? No way!

Other "special" destro staves after CWC nerfs? Master Destro without max magicka is worthless. Who's gonna use it just for one skill that is even not that great when at the same time you have so many other better alternatives. Much better. Now it is a very unique staff since there is no enchant giving you max stat...

Maelstrom Destro will remain a thing as a backbar weapon because its strength is in WoE buffing your staff attacks. But in PvP it won't be worth slotting anymore.

@ZOS_Wrobel Read and learn!

GeorgeBlack

Once again it's highlighted that Eso is all about stats and rotations, instead of judgement, reaction and skill.
Well... What else can you play with when there are no skill CDs and every CC means stamina loss instead of stun fear knock up or knock down root paralysis silence Aaaandd combat means an ugly piano performance with the 3 attribute bars going up and down for small scale OR spamming a couple of buttons while walking along with your zerg.

Ahhh the great mmorpgs

zyk

The vMA resto is very strong when you consider its bonus is active even when the vMA resto is equipped on the off-bar.

The vMA 2H is very strong in PVP. Its bonus can also be useful off-bar.

The Asylum 2H is OP.

The Master's Resto is very strong in the hands of a healing springs spammer or two.

I have mixed feelings about the change. Sometimes a glyph or poison is better than the current stat boost. I like the weapon damage from the current vMA bow because it is often my heal/escape bar. However, with a VMA 2H or Resto backbar, I might prefer to use poisons or glyphs.

I think a fair compromise would be to give all existing vMA and Master weapons an enchant that provides the same functionality. That way, players who benefit from the current stat boost won't have something taken away. Win/Win.

Kilandros

Design is out of whack when some builds utilizing 5 + 5 + 1 will opt to take a single monster piece (e.g., shoulders) instead of a VMA Destro.

I think the solution is to return the innate bonuses (e.g., 189 spell damage to VMA Destros, 94 weapon damage or whatever to VMA one handers) AND allow them to be enchanted on top of their bonus enchant.

I think Maelstrom, Master, and Asylum weapons should be more powerful than Monster Sets. Sure you can use them with a Monster set, but if I'm making a build where I only get one it should be VMA/Master/Asylum.

Shadzilla

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/372839/asylum-dual-wield-weapons-suck-help-zos-make-them-better#latest

Shadzilla

bump

Minno

Shouldn't everyone use the official thread to help cutdown on the fluff threads that might not be seen by the devs?

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/371898/pts-update-16-feedback-thread-for-item-sets-asylum-weapons#latest

Shadzilla

Minno wrote: »

Shouldn't everyone use the official thread to help cutdown on the fluff threads that might not be seen by the devs?

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/371898/pts-update-16-feedback-thread-for-item-sets-asylum-weapons#latest

Word.

Lord_Eomer

Minno wrote: »

Shouldn't everyone use the official thread to help cutdown on the fluff threads that might not be seen by the devs?

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/371898/pts-update-16-feedback-thread-for-item-sets-asylum-weapons#latest

Indeed if developers read feedback and consider to apply even some part of it

Toc de Malsvi

Joy_Division wrote: »

On the whole, I think ZoS is overestimating the value of the Master/Maelstrom/Asylum reward weapons.

At the end of the day, if players are going to use these, they have to give up an set bonus, and a potentially powerful one at that if it’s a full 5-piece or Monster set. There is an opportunity cost; the bonus does not come for free; it merely replaces something else we can use instead. And, of course, the skill has to be slotted and actually used in the first place. And even if you're using it, it's likely going to be only once every 8 or 10 seconds. @Gilliamtherogue has a video here demonstrating just trying to use the new Asylum dual wield weapons makes for a less versatile build that does less DPS.

Before this patch, these weapons gave the user something above and beyond the modified skill that compensated for a lost set bonus. Master Staves gave upwards to 1000+ magicka bonus. Maelstrom Destruction staves granted 189 spell damage. Even if I did not specialize or even use the augmented skill, these weapons provided a versatile and tangible bonus that was always active, under every situation, and in every fight.

Now that’s gone. ZoS and other people are trying to tell me that since now I can put a spell/weapon damage glyph on the weapon, it doesn’t matter. Yes it does. First of all, there is no glyph that adds 1000+ magicka. Secondly it takes a perfect rotation with perfect animation cancelling to get the 174 spell damage from that glyph. And I can't use a poison. So the glyph loses versatility, is not always active, needs to proc, and is not as good as what it is replacing.

Most of all, I can put that glyph on a generic crafted weapon and get exactly the same benefits. The only thing these weapons are actually doing is augmenting a single ability. That’s it. And since I could put that glyph on a weapon that completes a 5th piece set bonus or allows me to use a full Monster set, the only reason to use a Master/Maelstrom/Aslyum weapon is if the actual augmentation of the ability is better than the full set bonus that you’re potentially losing.

That’s probably not going to happen with too many of these weapons.

Seen from this perspective, the value of many of these reward weapons is lacking. Why would I ever use a Master’s Inferno staff that just adds a one-time 1500 damage to an expensive skill that many DPS ignore in the first place? That’s just +187 DPS if I have a perfect rotation. I’m doing 35,000+ DPS on a target dummy! The benefit is imperceptible. Why would I trade that for a full Julianos set that will increase the damage of every skill I cast (which are further increased by common buffs and other raid multipliers) or just wear a Grothdar set that will do even more than 1500 damage per second to everything around me? You’d never do it. Even if you’re not completing a full set bonus, a 2nd, 3rd, and 4th piece bonus is still going to better. +1100 magicka (that is further amped by other % bonuse) or nearly 4% critical chance to everything? Yes, please.

The point: the benefits for using these weapons are so specialized, only augmenting a single ability, that the ability better be versatile and good enough to want to use in the first place and the actual augmentation needs to “wow.” The Sword and Shield and dual wield sets exacerbate this issue as you’re giving up two set piece bonus.

For this, I’ll use a color code to indicate how strong I think each weapon bonus is. My evaluation does not view these sets in isolation, rather it compares that bonus to a potential armor set bonus(es) that the user could have instead.

Goldish – very strong
Purple – good; probably worth using in some instances
Blue – worth testing; perhaps sacrificing better all-around performance for some specialization
Green – too situational; you’re more versatile and stronger in more situations more often when not using this weapon.
Red – Trap; it’s bad

Master’s

• Bow for PvP (For PvE the Maelstrom is a lot stronger) +301 weapon damage to targets that affected by my poison arrow. That’s great because the skill is good and offers a terrific benefit to all my damage skills. That’s the model all these weapons should have!
• Two-Handed: adds a one-time 2000 damage to a skill rarely used in DPS rotations in the first place. That’s +200 DPS assuming a perfect rotation. It’s terrible.
• Duel Wield: Increases Twin slashes bleed by 1500 per tick. I got to give up two set-piece bonuses to get this, but that’s tempting. Twin slashes is a good skill and that’s +1500 DPS (that also effects heals I’d assume). It makes me want to test this, which is precisely what a reward weapon should do.
• Sword & Shield: Heal for 2500 damage, +2500 spell and physical restiance. Most tanks don’t need this and will want group support so won’t use it. That being said, Puncture is a good skill and +2500 heal on demand and some resistance is nothing to sneeze at. I can see a PvP build using this, although it’s two set-piece bonuses so they’d be giving up something.
• Destruction staff: Already covered. Spell is expensive (even with the bonus). Even the Flame Reach spammers in Cyrodiil will be better off with something else (such as the Domihaus 1-piece set that adds 1100 magicka and stamina that scales).
• Restoration Staff: +258 stamina restored on the first tick of Healing Springs. Somewhat overrated, it’s not much stamina at all. I could cast this 4 times and it wouldn’t even cover half the cost for a tank who wanted to use Heroic Slash. I’d have to cast Springs 14 times to cover the cost of a single dodge roll. On stationary fights with burn phases like the Mage boss, it's strong for sure. But most Boss fights are not that and the staff offers marginal benefit for magicka raids so it's value is going to fluctuate and can sometimes be Green . When I used this as a healer, it was mostly because of the 1000+ magicka I got for simply equipping it.

Maelstrom

• Bow is PvE gold, Increase volley damage 161 per tick (further increase 56 every tick). Very narrow, yet very strong. Good design.
• Two-Handed: Critical charge deals a total extra 4300 damage over 5 seconds. It was always just a nice but hardly overpowering bonus two PvPers. That damage is divided by two and further mitigated by resistances. It was used in PvP for the +189 weapon damage and poison use. Wear a Monster set or a 4th piece bonus that gives 129 weapon damage instead.
• Duel Wield: adds a one-time 2003 weapon damage buff to next DoT ability used after flurry. My stamina PvE friends tell me this set was not worth it since they were nerfed even when the weapons provided the bonus damage for equipping them. They certainly aren’t going to give up 2 set-piece bonuses now.
• Sword and shield: Restore an additional 2000 magicka and stamina if a fully charged heavy attack is competed 5 seconds after Low slash. Not bad. I’d consider that because Low slash is a good skill and getting both resources is a nice boon.
• Destruction Staff: Basic attacks deal an additional 1341 damage to enemies in my Wall of Elements. Archetypically a PvE “back bar” weapon, albeit a good one. The skill is strong and it amps up something I potentially do every second independent of the skill.
• Restoration Staff: restore 800 magicka when critically heal an ally with regeneration. 4 second cooldown. This is iffy. Regeneration is too cumbersome to use in raids, but in smaller scale content, maybe. You’re never going to get this to proc on cooldown. You’re going to get more Magicka from a Lich staff and a 5 piece Seducer. I'd use it if I were running 4 man content and if the alternative was a generic staff, but that's not exactly a ringing endorsement.

Asylum

• Bow: Adds 50% more direct damage to Snipe, Poison Arrow, and Magnum shot to enemies hit by Acid Spray. I know very little about ESO bow play. I do know Acid Spray is not a popular ability to begin with and I have a hard time seeing how this weapon would be comparable to PvE Maelstrom bow and PvP Master bow. I hestiated to make this red but people are telling me it needs help.
• Two Handed: Generate up to 15 Ultimate depending on how much execute damage is done with Reverse Slice. Strong effect for a commonly used skill. It’s something I’d want to try.
• Duel Wield: Add 10 seconds to Rend, Twin Slashes, and Blade cloak when you deal damage with Whirlwind. I’m not giving up two set-piece bonuses to just add some time to DoTs.
• Sword and Shield: Gain 2000 magicka when absorbing a spell projectile with Defensive Stance. Gain 5000 magicka if Defensive Stance expires without reflecting anything. While that bonus sounds strong, it’s not free. You’ve got to give up 2 set piece bonuses and that’s going to have more value than some situational magicka return.
  I use Defensive Posture, but I won’t be using this set. Right now, my templar uses Wizard’s Riposte, Valkyn Skoria, Amberplasm, and dual Willpower swords – that’s 3 full set bonuses. I’d have to lose one of these full set bonus plus an additional set just to equip this set that gives me some magicka that I do just fine without right now. Lose the Valkyn? That means losing 1200 health and irreplaceable burst damage. No way. Lose the amberplasm? Why? That’s already giving me a big magicka regen bonus and stamina regen bonus (both further amped by other percents) and 129 spell damage. That’s a huge downgrade in every respect. If I drop Wizard’s Riposte, then I am losing minor main on every enemy that attacks me (important as I’m wearing light armor) and a magicka regen bonus that by itself gives me nearly 60% of that big 5000 return the sets gives. Full piece armor bonuses are powerful, you want them – and another 4th piece – more than this set
  
  The one build that this set might be blue, and it’s just a might, be good is a no damage troll DK tank in PvP. But if they go this route, that means no Desert Rose, no Reactive, no Impregnable, or no Bloodspawn, so I’m not sure it’s strictly better as it’s not like a troll tank needs this set. Besides, I don’t think this is the sort of build we should be encouraging
  .
• Destruction Staff: in PvP if you want to use Force Pulse (better with sorcerer or NB). Also, one PvE DPS, probably NB, is going to want to have this in a raid. But it's limited in many other aspects. and the imperfect version is bad. Every second of cast of Force Pulse will always proc concussion, burning, and chilled. The set that got nerfed before people even actually tried and tested it. These status effects are not that hard to put on an enemy (tank/skills/sets will maim and an infused or charged glyph will concuss people) so why am I giving up a Monster set (say a clannfear that will maim, do damage, and proc my necropotance) for this? The imperfect staff will probably merely overwrite already existing effects since you have to spam the skill just to get the benefit.
• Restoration Staff: when you cast Combat Prayer (Healers do not use the other morph), the next cost of Grand Healing, Regeneration, or Steadfast Ward is reduced by 50%. This is terrible. I find it telling that the Force Siphon skill is so bad, it was forgotten about. Healers have almost always eschewed selfish buffs or additional healing in favor of things that support the group. If I really need to resource management from a staff, I’m going to use a Maelstrom. The Asylum weapon is thus redundant. How about using Blessing of Protection (the base skill), you get the effect of both morphs?

It can be hard to rate these as there is usually a big difference betwee PvP and PvE. And some people will just value certain skills more than others. Nevertheless, an conclusion can be drawn: the spell augmentations aren’t bad, in fact some of them are quite good. Rather it’s to get those augmentations, we must potentially give up very desirable armor piece bonuses that strengthen our entire build and every spell we cast. For weapons that offer benefits beyond the actual skill (such as the Master’s Bow), these are the preferred design and generally desirable. Those weapons that are just offering a small boon to a skill we might cast only once every 8 or 10 seconds, wow, that benefit has to be *really* good, in particular if the spell to begin with just isn’t very strong (such as the Master’s Destruction Staff). These such weapons are almost all decon fodder.

Great post!

I got here late so, Asylum Bow was already set to red.

Can't completely comment fairly on the other weapons. However it seems you are on point with the Bows now with the Asylum bow in the red. It is literally better to use any other bow and a 1 piece monster than use the Asylum bow, at least for PVE.

For more differentiation:

Masters Bow:
PVP gold
PVE blue

VMA Bow:
PVP green-red Endless isn't a good skill for PVP.
PVE gold

Asylum Bow:
PVP blue-green? Hard to say, cant test effectively on PTS not enough people PVPing. Sat in que for BG's for over an hour the other night. I think it might be situationally worth while, but it comes at a huge cost having to slot Acid Spray.
PVE red

Letho2469

My thoughts are very simple: fail, as always. As a PvP stamblade I have to do endless vDSA runs to get an item that is next to mandatory now! There is only few players who are still willing to do that old content, I had to learn PvE tanking (sth. that is pure in my oppinion) to get a chance of getting the weapon. vMSA is content that I can do whenever I want, but no I am forced into dependencies again. It's plain ridiculous.

High end pve items as rewards for high end pve, high end pvp items as reward fo high end pvp. Every different system is garbage.

Raudgrani

Switched a defending Asylum Lightning Staff for a Sharpened 2H sword yesterday, seems like a good choice. A Flame Staff I would have kept though. Any thoughts on the 2H sword? I'm gonna lose some set bouns on that bar, so I dunno...

elijafire

Joy_Division wrote: »

On the whole, I think ZoS is overestimating the value of the Master/Maelstrom/Asylum reward weapons.

At the end of the day, if players are going to use these, they have to give up an set bonus, and a potentially powerful one at that if it’s a full 5-piece or Monster set. There is an opportunity cost; the bonus does not come for free; it merely replaces something else we can use instead. And, of course, the skill has to be slotted and actually used in the first place. And even if you're using it, it's likely going to be only once every 8 or 10 seconds. @Gilliamtherogue has a video here demonstrating just trying to use the new Asylum dual wield weapons makes for a less versatile build that does less DPS.

Before this patch, these weapons gave the user something above and beyond the modified skill that compensated for a lost set bonus. Master Staves gave upwards to 1000+ magicka bonus. Maelstrom Destruction staves granted 189 spell damage. Even if I did not specialize or even use the augmented skill, these weapons provided a versatile and tangible bonus that was always active, under every situation, and in every fight.

Now that’s gone. ZoS and other people are trying to tell me that since now I can put a spell/weapon damage glyph on the weapon, it doesn’t matter. Yes it does. First of all, there is no glyph that adds 1000+ magicka. Secondly it takes a perfect rotation with perfect animation cancelling to get the 174 spell damage from that glyph. And I can't use a poison. So the glyph loses versatility, is not always active, needs to proc, and is not as good as what it is replacing.

Most of all, I can put that glyph on a generic crafted weapon and get exactly the same benefits. The only thing these weapons are actually doing is augmenting a single ability. That’s it. And since I could put that glyph on a weapon that completes a 5th piece set bonus or allows me to use a full Monster set, the only reason to use a Master/Maelstrom/Aslyum weapon is if the actual augmentation of the ability is better than the full set bonus that you’re potentially losing.

That’s probably not going to happen with too many of these weapons.

Seen from this perspective, the value of many of these reward weapons is lacking. Why would I ever use a Master’s Inferno staff that just adds a one-time 1500 damage to an expensive skill that many DPS ignore in the first place? That’s just +187 DPS if I have a perfect rotation. I’m doing 35,000+ DPS on a target dummy! The benefit is imperceptible. Why would I trade that for a full Julianos set that will increase the damage of every skill I cast (which are further increased by common buffs and other raid multipliers) or just wear a Grothdar set that will do even more than 1500 damage per second to everything around me? You’d never do it. Even if you’re not completing a full set bonus, a 2nd, 3rd, and 4th piece bonus is still going to better. +1100 magicka (that is further amped by other % bonuse) or nearly 4% critical chance to everything? Yes, please.

The point: the benefits for using these weapons are so specialized, only augmenting a single ability, that the ability better be versatile and good enough to want to use in the first place and the actual augmentation needs to “wow.” The Sword and Shield and dual wield sets exacerbate this issue as you’re giving up two set piece bonus.

For this, I’ll use a color code to indicate how strong I think each weapon bonus is. My evaluation does not view these sets in isolation, rather it compares that bonus to a potential armor set bonus(es) that the user could have instead.

Goldish – very strong
Purple – good; probably worth using in some instances
Blue – worth testing; perhaps sacrificing better all-around performance for some specialization
Green – too situational; you’re more versatile and stronger in more situations more often when not using this weapon.
Red – Trap; it’s bad

Master’s

• Bow for PvP (For PvE the Maelstrom is a lot stronger) +301 weapon damage to targets that affected by my poison arrow. That’s great because the skill is good and offers a terrific benefit to all my damage skills. That’s the model all these weapons should have!
• Two-Handed: adds a one-time 2000 damage to a skill rarely used in DPS rotations in the first place. That’s +200 DPS assuming a perfect rotation. It’s terrible.
• Duel Wield: Increases Twin slashes bleed by 1500 per tick. I got to give up two set-piece bonuses to get this, but that’s tempting. Twin slashes is a good skill and that’s +1500 DPS (that also effects heals I’d assume). It makes me want to test this, which is precisely what a reward weapon should do.
• Sword & Shield: Heal for 2500 damage, +2500 spell and physical restiance. Most tanks don’t need this and will want group support so won’t use it. That being said, Puncture is a good skill and +2500 heal on demand and some resistance is nothing to sneeze at. I can see a PvP build using this, although it’s two set-piece bonuses so they’d be giving up something.
• Destruction staff: Already covered. Spell is expensive (even with the bonus). Even the Flame Reach spammers in Cyrodiil will be better off with something else (such as the Domihaus 1-piece set that adds 1100 magicka and stamina that scales).
• Restoration Staff: +258 stamina restored on the first tick of Healing Springs. Somewhat overrated, it’s not much stamina at all. I could cast this 4 times and it wouldn’t even cover half the cost for a tank who wanted to use Heroic Slash. I’d have to cast Springs 14 times to cover the cost of a single dodge roll. On stationary fights with burn phases like the Mage boss, it's strong for sure. But most Boss fights are not that and the staff offers marginal benefit for magicka raids so it's value is going to fluctuate and can sometimes be Green . When I used this as a healer, it was mostly because of the 1000+ magicka I got for simply equipping it.

Maelstrom

• Bow is PvE gold, Increase volley damage 161 per tick (further increase 56 every tick). Very narrow, yet very strong. Good design.
• Two-Handed: Critical charge deals a total extra 4300 damage over 5 seconds. It was always just a nice but hardly overpowering bonus two PvPers. That damage is divided by two and further mitigated by resistances. It was used in PvP for the +189 weapon damage and poison use. Wear a Monster set or a 4th piece bonus that gives 129 weapon damage instead.
• Duel Wield: adds a one-time 2003 weapon damage buff to next DoT ability used after flurry. My stamina PvE friends tell me this set was not worth it since they were nerfed even when the weapons provided the bonus damage for equipping them. They certainly aren’t going to give up 2 set-piece bonuses now.
• Sword and shield: Restore an additional 2000 magicka and stamina if a fully charged heavy attack is competed 5 seconds after Low slash. Not bad. I’d consider that because Low slash is a good skill and getting both resources is a nice boon.
• Destruction Staff: Basic attacks deal an additional 1341 damage to enemies in my Wall of Elements. Archetypically a PvE “back bar” weapon, albeit a good one. The skill is strong and it amps up something I potentially do every second independent of the skill.
• Restoration Staff: restore 800 magicka when critically heal an ally with regeneration. 4 second cooldown. This is iffy. Regeneration is too cumbersome to use in raids, but in smaller scale content, maybe. You’re never going to get this to proc on cooldown. You’re going to get more Magicka from a Lich staff and a 5 piece Seducer. I'd use it if I were running 4 man content and if the alternative was a generic staff, but that's not exactly a ringing endorsement.

Asylum

• Bow: Adds 50% more direct damage to Snipe, Poison Arrow, and Magnum shot to enemies hit by Acid Spray. I know very little about ESO bow play. I do know Acid Spray is not a popular ability to begin with and I have a hard time seeing how this weapon would be comparable to PvE Maelstrom bow and PvP Master bow. I hestiated to make this red but people are telling me it needs help.
• Two Handed: Generate up to 15 Ultimate depending on how much execute damage is done with Reverse Slice. Strong effect for a commonly used skill. It’s something I’d want to try.
• Duel Wield: Add 10 seconds to Rend, Twin Slashes, and Blade cloak when you deal damage with Whirlwind. I’m not giving up two set-piece bonuses to just add some time to DoTs.
• Sword and Shield: Gain 2000 magicka when absorbing a spell projectile with Defensive Stance. Gain 5000 magicka if Defensive Stance expires without reflecting anything. While that bonus sounds strong, it’s not free. You’ve got to give up 2 set piece bonuses and that’s going to have more value than some situational magicka return.
  I use Defensive Posture, but I won’t be using this set. Right now, my templar uses Wizard’s Riposte, Valkyn Skoria, Amberplasm, and dual Willpower swords – that’s 3 full set bonuses. I’d have to lose one of these full set bonus plus an additional set just to equip this set that gives me some magicka that I do just fine without right now. Lose the Valkyn? That means losing 1200 health and irreplaceable burst damage. No way. Lose the amberplasm? Why? That’s already giving me a big magicka regen bonus and stamina regen bonus (both further amped by other percents) and 129 spell damage. That’s a huge downgrade in every respect. If I drop Wizard’s Riposte, then I am losing minor main on every enemy that attacks me (important as I’m wearing light armor) and a magicka regen bonus that by itself gives me nearly 60% of that big 5000 return the sets gives. Full piece armor bonuses are powerful, you want them – and another 4th piece – more than this set
  
  The one build that this set might be blue, and it’s just a might, be good is a no damage troll DK tank in PvP. But if they go this route, that means no Desert Rose, no Reactive, no Impregnable, or no Bloodspawn, so I’m not sure it’s strictly better as it’s not like a troll tank needs this set. Besides, I don’t think this is the sort of build we should be encouraging
  .
• Destruction Staff: in PvP if you want to use Force Pulse (better with sorcerer or NB). Also, one PvE DPS, probably NB, is going to want to have this in a raid. But it's limited in many other aspects. and the imperfect version is bad. Every second of cast of Force Pulse will always proc concussion, burning, and chilled. The set that got nerfed before people even actually tried and tested it. These status effects are not that hard to put on an enemy (tank/skills/sets will maim and an infused or charged glyph will concuss people) so why am I giving up a Monster set (say a clannfear that will maim, do damage, and proc my necropotance) for this? The imperfect staff will probably merely overwrite already existing effects since you have to spam the skill just to get the benefit.
• Restoration Staff: when you cast Combat Prayer (Healers do not use the other morph), the next cost of Grand Healing, Regeneration, or Steadfast Ward is reduced by 50%. This is terrible. I find it telling that the Force Siphon skill is so bad, it was forgotten about. Healers have almost always eschewed selfish buffs or additional healing in favor of things that support the group. If I really need to resource management from a staff, I’m going to use a Maelstrom. The Asylum weapon is thus redundant. How about using Blessing of Protection (the base skill), you get the effect of both morphs?

It can be hard to rate these as there is usually a big difference betwee PvP and PvE. And some people will just value certain skills more than others. Nevertheless, an conclusion can be drawn: the spell augmentations aren’t bad, in fact some of them are quite good. Rather it’s to get those augmentations, we must potentially give up very desirable armor piece bonuses that strengthen our entire build and every spell we cast. For weapons that offer benefits beyond the actual skill (such as the Master’s Bow), these are the preferred design and generally desirable. Those weapons that are just offering a small boon to a skill we might cast only once every 8 or 10 seconds, wow, that benefit has to be *really* good, in particular if the spell to begin with just isn’t very strong (such as the Master’s Destruction Staff). These such weapons are almost all decon fodder.

Pretty much spot on, all this "end game" gear is pretty yawnable.

ccfeeling

I play VDSA for fun tho , most of drops are trashes except the restoration staff , but I never play a healer lol

I liked the lighting staff before patch , about 1k magicka bonus . I can equip it any char even I won't use the enhanced skill .

Best fun dungeon and worst loots , thank you , ZOS !

f047ys3v3n

Joy_Division wrote: »

On the whole, I think ZoS is overestimating the value of the Master/Maelstrom/Asylum reward weapons.

At the end of the day, if players are going to use these, they have to give up an set bonus, and a potentially powerful one at that if it’s a full 5-piece or Monster set. There is an opportunity cost; the bonus does not come for free; it merely replaces something else we can use instead. And, of course, the skill has to be slotted and actually used in the first place. And even if you're using it, it's likely going to be only once every 8 or 10 seconds. @Gilliamtherogue has a video here demonstrating just trying to use the new Asylum dual wield weapons makes for a less versatile build that does less DPS.

I totally agree. I actually do not currently run my vMA destro. The DPS contribution of it's enchant bonus looks like about 700 dps in an ideal situation (one target only, always in wall, perfect wall uptime) . It costs you about 400 dps (one standard spell power buff) to get this bonus. On top of that, it complicates set itemization as there is no obvious choice for the weapon on other bar (masters staff is just plain garbage.) You are left with 3 choices.

1) If you are wearing a monster set you will have a 4 pc bonus on your non vMA bar that you don't on your vMA. This will probably be spell damage from moondancer. This is your best possible scenario. Using a vMA staff costs only 129 spell damage. I run a mNB which dosen't really proc much in the way of monster sets since the damage ones tend not to proc from magic damage. So, for me to do this I would have to go with less than ideal sets to start with.

2) If you have a 5,5,1 set and chose to give up a 5 pc set you might have infal on the front bar but not on the back. Now you can't really full heavy on the back or you loose a nice damage bonus there and you are also down a spell crit bonus on your vMA bar. This would probably be my best bet if I wen't with a vMA staff but I don't think the slim possible gain is worth the restrictions to rotation as well as potential dps loss from less than ideal fight situations.

3) You can just give up the 1 and have a non-set staff on the front bar. This is a damage loss over just going with no vMA staff even in the case of perfect up-time.

4) Ok, maybe if you have a perfected asylum you take the dps hit personally for the group and run that front. (I don't have it because, you know, now we have these Hodor mode things required to get anything shiny that are a bit beyond me.)

In the end I just don't think the chance of a little more DPS in a perfect situation is worth giving up better dps in a less than perfect situation where say the boss mechanics cause him to move or there are adds that would take more damage from flat stat bonuses but get nothing from staff.

At this point the only 1pc prestige weapon I run on a serious toon that I running first tier gear on is the vMA resto staff in PVP. This is unquestionably worth the buff because it allows me to pre-apply a magica regen buff with an ability that (since cloak is no longer a purge) I am required to have on my NB anyway. If I was a main healer I would still run the vDSA resto as well. Lastly, I will probably kit out a non-perfect asylum greatsword for my sSorc in PVP. All of my other masters and vMA stuff are on secondary toons where they are basically just gold weapons.

The more important thing here is that we are talking about rare, hard to get, super special weapons and the vast majority are not worth running at all over setups with just crafted or drop sets. These weapons should be indisputably good but they are not. It is good that they are no-longer a ridiculous enchant based thing but taking away their generally good buff has made most worthless and heavily dependent on specific abilities.

akray21

I personally think the masters bow is OP. When combined with the agility set you get 494 weapon damage, and 1451 stamina... that's the total value of a 5 piece set in only 4 pieces.

SodanTok

akray21 wrote: »

I personally think the masters bow is OP. When combined with the agility set you get 494 weapon damage, and 1451 stamina... that's the total value of a 5 piece set in only 4 pieces.

Agility set was intended to be 4 piece put in 3 piece. It got nerfed and is like 3.7 piece in 4 3 piece.
So you are really complaining about agility only

Put

I feel as if as the game has progressed, Zenimax has slowly tried to lower the skill gap (along with the rewards for hard activities) in order to pull in new people and to not put off the majority.

It sucks for long time players who have worked to gain an advantage but with the sets Zenimax keep putting out the skill gap is slowly being destroyed