Animation cancelling, bar swapping, and weaving are not fun.

Betsararie

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

It's not fun for people with carpal tunnel , that's for sure . Since playing with some older friends that have office jobs and type all day at work they get pain from it and log out . I think it's a fun mechanic but I can see why others may not like it . Not everyone likes the same stuff . I play games with and without it and have fun either way .

I've always loved it.

Faster paced games and usually skill based games incorporate it. In most cases a game can't really be fast paced without legitimate animation cancelling, else it will feel like a kiddie game.

What's so sad about this thread is it's basically taking some of the best aspects of the combat system and basically saying they don't have a place. Hello Kitty: Island Adventure is that way.
-->

Well I understand and we both like it but once again you are someone feeling like someone is going to take something away from you so you're lashing out with the mean words like "kiddie" and hello kitty games ... ZOS has no plans to remove it so put your word pistols back in their holsters Lash Laroo .

No the point needs to be made, and by the way, you don't know what ZOS plans to do or is thinking. Don't act like you do. LOL

Cously

Sucks for people with high latencies. First MMO I played where DPS is frustrating. What kills is the bar swap delay.

FoolishHuman

I just don't like it that your personal reflexes and your ping are more important for your damage than your build, skills and equipment. It's supposed to be an RPG, where your character does the fighting depending on their skills. I find DPS not a lot of fun in this game, because you are supposed to switch off your brain and work like a machine. If I play them I always go for very very simple rotations, sorcerer is good for that for example, lots of passives/pets on both bars, long lasting DoTs and lots of heavy attacks.

Ozstryker

Typical elite troll response.. L2P or leave.......boring!!
On the other hand here's a way to boost your dps.. I'm like op, not a fan but I don't chase top spot in Vet trials either, therefore I don't need to be obsessed with it.. I throw in light attacks where it's obvious, the odd block cancel and still average 25k ish single target, more than enough for Vet dungeons, even normal trials..
It's unintentional from ZOS, and only really necessary at end game!

Robo_Hobo

I like it, but I'm not too good at it yet. It feels really rewarding to me after a lot of practice when I'm able to get it going smoothly, and even more so when it's in an actual fight.

It reminds me of, funnily enough, old Runescape (my only other mno I really played much of) where you could 'flash' (quickly turn on and off at specific moments during an attack animation) your protection or offensive 'prayers' to save 'prayer points' to be able to use it more without running out, or be able to use multiple types (sort of) that normally don't stack, and thus survive and solo fights that weren't meant to be solo'd. In a game where the combat was mostly just clicking and waiting, that extra little perk for good timing and skill made it feel more rewarding. At my best, I remember messing around with no armor or supplies against things that would normally one shot me like that, and be able to kill them for hours with that technique. It was an unintentional quirk of the game, that likewise a lot of people hated, but I loved it.

Dragath

Khenarthi wrote: »

The_Protagonist wrote: »

There are a few things you need to invest in if you want to be good.

or

I also use

Even this requires quite a bit of commitment to get used to, but once you start getting the hang of it, you will never go back

Even fancy gear won't help you if you're just clumsy. I have the naga and the orbweaver, and I'm still quite bad at dd rotations because my fingers just aren't that fast or coordinated.

i suspect he did post them because you can make macros for all the buttons.
you don't have to weave light attacks with stuff like that. you can just tell your mouse to light attack automatically when you use a skill.

Rohamad_Ali

Blanco wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

It's not fun for people with carpal tunnel , that's for sure . Since playing with some older friends that have office jobs and type all day at work they get pain from it and log out . I think it's a fun mechanic but I can see why others may not like it . Not everyone likes the same stuff . I play games with and without it and have fun either way .

I've always loved it.

Faster paced games and usually skill based games incorporate it. In most cases a game can't really be fast paced without legitimate animation cancelling, else it will feel like a kiddie game.

What's so sad about this thread is it's basically taking some of the best aspects of the combat system and basically saying they don't have a place. Hello Kitty: Island Adventure is that way.
-->

Well I understand and we both like it but once again you are someone feeling like someone is going to take something away from you so you're lashing out with the mean words like "kiddie" and hello kitty games ... ZOS has no plans to remove it so put your word pistols back in their holsters Lash Laroo .

No the point needs to be made, and by the way, you don't know what ZOS plans to do or is thinking. Don't act like you do. LOL

I'm not acting at all .

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ThZtwhYkKSs

greylox

It used to be more fluid but I don't see it as a problem, just second nature now.

tunepunk

I don't mind it, but i wish that most skills were more situational and stronger overall.

Get adds? - Drop your AOE's
Need to burn something down, drop your strong single target skills.

What bothers me the most is looking at boss parses where Ground based or AOE's are doing more dps than your single target skills.

I think skills in general should be a lot stronger than they currently are, but also cost more resources, so you would use them in the right situation, and not as part of an endless boring rotation.

Khenarthi

Dragath wrote: »

Khenarthi wrote: »

The_Protagonist wrote: »

There are a few things you need to invest in if you want to be good.

or

I also use

Even this requires quite a bit of commitment to get used to, but once you start getting the hang of it, you will never go back

Even fancy gear won't help you if you're just clumsy. I have the naga and the orbweaver, and I'm still quite bad at dd rotations because my fingers just aren't that fast or coordinated.

i suspect he did post them because you can make macros for all the buttons.
you don't have to weave light attacks with stuff like that. you can just tell your mouse to light attack automatically when you use a skill.

Macros are cheating and can get you banned: I'm too attached to my account to risk it.

The extra buttons on the mouse are very handy (I got the thumb programmed for I, T, C, X, E, H, P, R, Alt, Ctrl, Q, F, swap) and I use the orbweaver's joystick as my ASWD with the lower 2 rows of keys for my spells. Utimate and sneak go on the thumb too. The two upper rows on the orbweaver I cannot reach, my fingers are very short...

Riejael

Everything needs to AC a synergy usage. And they need to put skill use on Key Press not Key Release. Both of these would help everyone involved.

As for Australians with 300+ ping. You'll need to do something politically drastic (details beyond the rules of these forums) to make that happen. You should be getting 120-180ms ping to West Coast NA, but your nation's firewalling is causing slowdowns.

sevomd69

On Xb1...using the elite controller and mapping weapon swap to one of the paddles has helped tremendously...can't imagine playing without the elite controller...

Vaoh

It's fun imo

If you have high ping or dislike rotations due to complexity just play a Magicka Sorc. Easiest class to use by a long shot since you can set one up to require very little thinking for their rotation.

Also it's impossible to remove rotations as they are unless we add cooldowns to skills and remove Magicka/Stamina..... so like ruin the entire game when the combat is great as is.

Izaki

How does this even make sense?

Izaki

sevomd69 wrote: »

On Xb1...using the elite controller and mapping weapon swap to one of the paddles has helped tremendously...can't imagine playing without the elite controller...

Its the same thing except you jump when you weapon swap when you need to be moving aka in PvP. In static fights like in PvE... There's literally no difference between a normal controller and an Elite one.

HatchetHaro

The_Protagonist wrote: »

There are a few things you need to invest in if you want to be good.

or

I also use

Even this requires quite a bit of commitment to get used to, but once you start getting the hang of it, you will never go back

Untrue. I scorepush in vet trials regularly, and all I use is a regular keyboard and a 5-button mouse.

The_Protagonist

Khenarthi wrote: »

The_Protagonist wrote: »

There are a few things you need to invest in if you want to be good.

or

I also use

Even this requires quite a bit of commitment to get used to, but once you start getting the hang of it, you will never go back

Even fancy gear won't help you if you're just clumsy. I have the naga and the orbweaver, and I'm still quite bad at dd rotations because my fingers just aren't that fast or coordinated.

Like I said, practice makes perfect, be patient and keep trying, no one learns over night.

I sucked big time at DD rotations and in dungeons I used to be called Mr. 1k DPS, but I kept playing and learning, now I am able to do more than 60% damage in Dungeons. Since my fingers are very clumsy, it took me months and months of rage mashing buttons and trying different gear.

MMOs are not simple entertainment, where you sit back and relax, but a serious hobby that requires dedication, patience, time and practice.

Another thing I learned is that you have to be social if you want to do vet content, otherwise it will take far more longer to be somebody.

bebynnag

weaving & ani canceling has been terrible for me for the past 2 months+ too...

i was fine before, im starting to improve again

damn wrist if its not 1 problem its something else! when are zos gonna fix this game breaking issue and release some much needed aliance themed wrist supports?

The_Protagonist

Runefang wrote: »

As an Aussie who gets terrible lag I'd be happy to see them go, it's hard to do with 300 ping.

In Saudi and India and the ping is worse 300-350ms, I've learned to live with it, it's not fun at all.

The_Protagonist

Dragath wrote: »

Khenarthi wrote: »

The_Protagonist wrote: »

There are a few things you need to invest in if you want to be good.

or

I also use

Even this requires quite a bit of commitment to get used to, but once you start getting the hang of it, you will never go back

Even fancy gear won't help you if you're just clumsy. I have the naga and the orbweaver, and I'm still quite bad at dd rotations because my fingers just aren't that fast or coordinated.

i suspect he did post them because you can make macros for all the buttons.
you don't have to weave light attacks with stuff like that. you can just tell your mouse to light attack automatically when you use a skill.

Macros are situational at best and are counter productive to DPS.

No Macro can help you if you don't practice.

For example:

1. Before starting a fight, you cast elemental breach, if it's macroed with a light attack it will aggro the enemy and you will miss your buff.
2. If you casted a mages guild ability like mage light for empowerment to get 20% buff on damage for next ability, a weaved macroed light attack will consume that buff.

But if you are just saying that for the sake of argument, then that's that. I thought I would share my personal experience here, but when someone's not ready to listen, whats the use.

I think I understand why all the veterans say what they

The_Protagonist

HatchetHaro wrote: »

The_Protagonist wrote: »

There are a few things you need to invest in if you want to be good.

or

I also use

Even this requires quite a bit of commitment to get used to, but once you start getting the hang of it, you will never go back

Untrue. I scorepush in vet trials regularly, and all I use is a regular keyboard and a 5-button mouse.

Good for you, I like my gear and helped me get better, the mouse more that than the keypad so shared it here. In the end it all comes down to personal choice.

Edit: typo

The_Protagonist

Izaki wrote: »

sevomd69 wrote: »

On Xb1...using the elite controller and mapping weapon swap to one of the paddles has helped tremendously...can't imagine playing without the elite controller...

Its the same thing except you jump when you weapon swap when you need to be moving aka in PvP. In static fights like in PvE... There's literally no difference between a normal controller and an Elite one.

Did anyone try using this? I have been eyeing it, but the experience with a regular gamepad made me have reservations. Any feedback would be appreciated.

theamazingx

It can get boring. Imagine how much more boring it would get if you were just pressing 5 buttons in slow sequence over and over.


It’s true that some rpgs base performance more heavily on the gear grind, allowing the character to essentially play itself, but both the combat system and the gear progression system would have to be entirely reworked for that to happen, and existing players would leave en masse. For many, the skill curve available to dps is the only thing that makes the game interesting for them. I personally like that 2 hours of a concentrated learning effort is significantly larger dps increase than farming a hundred undaunted keys for the right trait or spending 2 months farming normal Maw for a moondancer staff, the same way that spending several hours learning a boss fight helps more than spending several days for a specifc build that trivializes it as you might in other games.

Ping is an obstacle, it will always be an obstacle no matter how much you simplify the combat. But I regularly play with an Australian whos parses equal mine on a regular basis, so I always take that line of reasoning with a grain of salt. It sucks but it’s clearly not gamebreaking.

danno8

zyk wrote: »

Something to consider is that block cancelling is not essential and can actually reduce dps if not done well. The main thing is to weave, bar swap cancel and maintain a low error rate. That's my experience, though, I'm *far* from an expert on PVE rotations.

I find competitive PVE rotations to be really tedious, not because of animation cancelling, but because it feels like a macro simulator. I respect that it takes a lot of skill and focus to execute as well as the best PVE players do, but I don't find it to be enjoyable.

PVE gameplay has been less enjoyable for me since medium attacks were effectively nerfed.

PVP doesn't suffer in the same way because its gameplay is far more dynamic; though it can be made to be very formulaic, especially in large groups.

What's more is that at high-end DPS, all the classes and builds are basically the exact same rotation with very little variation. Put down 4-5 DoT's, a couple buffs, spam a spammable (or heavy attack), rinse repeat.

danno8

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

It's not fun for people with carpal tunnel , that's for sure . Since playing with some older friends that have office jobs and type all day at work they get pain from it and log out . I think it's a fun mechanic but I can see why others may not like it . Not everyone likes the same stuff . I play games with and without it and have fun either way .

I've always loved it.

Faster paced games and usually skill based games incorporate it. In most cases a game can't really be fast paced without legitimate animation cancelling, else it will feel like a kiddie game.

What's so sad about this thread is it's basically taking some of the best aspects of the combat system and basically saying they don't have a place. Hello Kitty: Island Adventure is that way.
-->

Well I understand and we both like it but once again you are someone feeling like someone is going to take something away from you so you're lashing out with the mean words like "kiddie" and hello kitty games ... ZOS has no plans to remove it so put your word pistols back in their holsters Lash Laroo .

No the point needs to be made, and by the way, you don't know what ZOS plans to do or is thinking. Don't act like you do. LOL

I'm not acting at all .

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ThZtwhYkKSs

This video seriously needs to be pinned at the top of the forums. "It's not cheating or an exploit", "fully embracing".

The_Protagonist

Khenarthi wrote: »

Dragath wrote: »

Khenarthi wrote: »

The_Protagonist wrote: »

There are a few things you need to invest in if you want to be good.

or

I also use

Even this requires quite a bit of commitment to get used to, but once you start getting the hang of it, you will never go back

Even fancy gear won't help you if you're just clumsy. I have the naga and the orbweaver, and I'm still quite bad at dd rotations because my fingers just aren't that fast or coordinated.

i suspect he did post them because you can make macros for all the buttons.
you don't have to weave light attacks with stuff like that. you can just tell your mouse to light attack automatically when you use a skill.

Macros are cheating and can get you banned: I'm too attached to my account to risk it.[/spolier]

The extra buttons on the mouse are very handy (I got the thumb programmed for I, T, C, X, E, H, P, R, Alt, Ctrl, Q, F, swap) and I use the orbweaver's joystick as my ASWD with the lower 2 rows of keys for my spells. Utimate and sneak go on the thumb too. The two upper rows on the orbweaver I cannot reach, my fingers are very short...

Map keys like Map, emotes, guild and other social or stuff that you do when out of combat. That's the beauty of customizable gear.

I have break free and dodge roll mapped in two different places, just so that I can reach them no matter where my dominant fingers are on the keypad.

Edit: Spoiler tag and Quote tag correction.

UnseenCat

Combos in fights have been a staple of gaming forever. The problem is that ESO's approach with weave/swap wasn't particularly intended as a combo system. Animation cancelling just adds more unintended variation. The whole thing is a set of unintended consequences that came out of a combat system that was probably originally designed as a simple set of sequential actions that could be chained together in any order. It turned into a de-facto combo system because the game isn't progrrammed for anything else. Combat mechanics would have to be completely re-worked to change what we have now, and then people would complain that the new system is hard to learn/uncomfortable/boring one you memorize it.

I suspect that if combat were just more responsive, it would be less of an issue. Right now players are reacting to laggy combat by using weaving and swaps to "stack" attack commands like a macro, and using animation cancelling to try to break in and inject another attack sequence before the game or other player can inject one of its own. Get combat mechanics to stay in realtime, and then the play style must be more adaptive to the situation; spamming button sequences will only bring average results. In reality, though, it would probably devolve into button, wait, button, wait, button, wait, wait, button... etc. because of lag. So we're probably stuck with some sort of impromptu or canned combo system -- pick your poison, unfortunately.

The problem we really have is that there were both very effective weaves/swaps/animation cancels plus spammable attacks. Then the nerfs came, often wiping out the spammable attacks more than anything else. Now players who aren't experts with weaving and animation canceling fell like they took an arrow to the knee. Meanwhile, it also forced players who liked weaving, swapping and animation cancelling to up their game to the point it may as well be a macro sequence. In the end, nothing improved.

It's time to revisit the combat mechanics so that it can cope with lag and with computers and consoles with varying capabilities better. That probably means allowing for decent spammable attacks, which should reduce the over-reliance on nanosecond-precise weaving and animation cancelling.

The_Protagonist

theamazingx wrote: »

It can get boring. Imagine how much more boring it would get if you were just pressing 5 buttons in slow sequence over and over.


It’s true that some rpgs base performance more heavily on the gear grind, allowing the character to essentially play itself, but both the combat system and the gear progression system would have to be entirely reworked for that to happen, and existing players would leave en masse. For many, the skill curve available to dps is the only thing that makes the game interesting for them. I personally like that 2 hours of a concentrated learning effort is significantly larger dps increase than farming a hundred undaunted keys for the right trait or spending 2 months farming normal Maw for a moondancer staff, the same way that spending several hours learning a boss fight helps more than spending several days for a specifc build that trivializes it as you might in other games.

Ping is an obstacle, it will always be an obstacle no matter how much you simplify the combat. But I regularly play with an Australian whos parses equal mine on a regular basis, so I always take that line of reasoning with a grain of salt. It sucks but it’s clearly not gamebreaking.

Totally agree with that.

starkerealm

Blanco wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

It's not fun for people with carpal tunnel , that's for sure . Since playing with some older friends that have office jobs and type all day at work they get pain from it and log out . I think it's a fun mechanic but I can see why others may not like it . Not everyone likes the same stuff . I play games with and without it and have fun either way .

I've always loved it.

Faster paced games and usually skill based games incorporate it. In most cases a game can't really be fast paced without legitimate animation cancelling, else it will feel like a kiddie game.

What's so sad about this thread is it's basically taking some of the best aspects of the combat system and basically saying they don't have a place. Hello Kitty: Island Adventure is that way.
-->

Oh really. Tell me, oh lord and master, how exactly do you animation cancel in DOOM (2016)?

Animation canceling is fairly unusual outside of a handful of genres. Mostly Fighting Games and Character Action games. Even then, usually the cost for canceling is you don't perform the action, not that you get to start chaining stuff together in absurd ways.

Now, I'd be completely fine with animation canceling in ESO if it actually functioned like AC does in a normal title. Such as breaking out of an animation before it finishes, but after damage has been dealt, but in ESO most abilities have nearly instant startups (which makes sense), and then follow with the rest of the animation, which makes less sense.

As it is, we're all exploiting a bug. The game isn't supposed to be this way, but ZOS can't figure out how to fix it. Animation canceling is easily one of the dumbest parts of ESO's combat. It takes the concept of, "ima hit you wit mah sword," and turn it into a chainsaw of doom, because, somewhere, an overcaffeinated 13 year old is signing up for early arthritis.

Merlin13KAGL

The problem is getting the game to keep them fluid. Any kind of performance hiccup, whether lag, skill lock, swap lock, heavy attack lock, targeting that works 20% of the time detracts from this.

I think if you could feel what it's like when these things perform as they should, you'd enjoy the fast paced, fluid motion that good combat entails.