Animation cancelling, bar swapping, and weaving are not fun.

DeathHouseInc

This is the conclusion I have come to after trying to emulate rotations in this game for the past two months.

It makes every DPS class to me monotonous and boring.

I understand light attacks need to be relevant...I think it should be a way that is actually fun.

disintegr8

I agree. I am unable to get the hang of attack rotations and being on PS4 my bar often swaps when I don't intend it to and I end up doing things like casting magelight or becoming invisible in the middle of a boss fight.

Therefore I just do what I think works for me and live with it.

casparian

I'm sorry you don't find those elements of ESO combat fun. I too find them frustrating when the game is slow or laggy. But without weaving and cancelling, ESO combat would feel clunky as heII. I know this because there are several abilities which are not cancellable and which do not weave well, and they feel clunky as heII.

kargen27

I've been trying to get better at weaving in light attacks. From time to time I will visit the target dummies and try to get a rhythm going. I start out slow just to get my fingers used to the pattern then try a little faster. I don't spend a lot of time at it but I am getting better. I can manage to get in a couple of good rotations out away from the dummies now, but when I do miss I never seem to get back into it again for that fight. Still better than I was.

I know I'm never going to get really good at a animation canceling rotation for the same reason I can't play the piano. My fingers just won't do what my brain tells them to.

zyk

Something to consider is that block cancelling is not essential and can actually reduce dps if not done well. The main thing is to weave, bar swap cancel and maintain a low error rate. That's my experience, though, I'm *far* from an expert on PVE rotations.

I find competitive PVE rotations to be really tedious, not because of animation cancelling, but because it feels like a macro simulator. I respect that it takes a lot of skill and focus to execute as well as the best PVE players do, but I don't find it to be enjoyable.

PVE gameplay has been less enjoyable for me since medium attacks were effectively nerfed.

PVP doesn't suffer in the same way because its gameplay is far more dynamic; though it can be made to be very formulaic, especially in large groups.

FakeFox

You find rotations boring because they have weaving and animation cancelling in them? So you think with half the skills and half the speed would be more challenging and fun? That does not make the least bit of sense to me.

In my opinion the faster and more difficult a rotation is the more fun it is to perform and the more rewarding to master.

starkerealm

As someone who's actually pretty good at them... you're not wrong. It's always felt really "off" to me.

Runefang

As an Aussie who gets terrible lag I'd be happy to see them go, it's hard to do with 300 ping.

Shadzilla

DeathHouseInc wrote: »

This is the conclusion I have come to after trying to emulate rotations in this game for the past two months.

It makes every DPS class to me monotonous and boring.

I understand light attacks need to be relevant...I think it should be a way that is actually fun.

Animation cancelling and light attack weaving were not supposed to be in the game, it was not designed with them in mind. It is just something people found and started doing for better results in 2014. Word on the street is ZOS tried to fix them but couldn't, so it just became part of the game. Kinda like Miat's stealth addon.

Light attacks are awesome, it keeps the fast paced hard to hit perfect rotations fun. WHAT IS NOT FUN IS HEAVY ATTACK ROTATIONS, LIKE NERF SUSTAIN MORE BRUH.

MLGProPlayer

casparian wrote: »

But without weaving and cancelling, ESO combat would feel clunky as heII. I know this because there are several abilities which are not cancellable and which do not weave well, and they feel clunky as heII.

See: warden class

Thogard

If it feels monotonous then the issue is probably the PvE content, not animation cancelling. Try PvP.

kuma82

It is very tedious to do proper rotations, to me personally. As someone who enjoys melee, I also hate that it's pretty much mandatory to have bow on backbar for top dps. That I am unable to just be a 2h or DW dps and do well. It makes every stam character feel the same. They should just buff weapon skill dmg if you have all weapon abilities slotted. Doesn't have to be on the same bar. So you can build that DW, bow, or 2h character. It is also extremely annoying to have to rebuff every 20 to 30 seconds. Just extend duration by 2-3 times in length. It reminds of when I played WoW when raids first started. I was a paladin, I had to individually buff 40 man raids with buffs that ran out after 5 min. Raids that went on for hours. Weaving buffs into rotations is annoying as hell.

The whole weaving and animation cancelling issue is also frustrating because nothing is taught. Other games have global cooldowns, or skills that specifically follow up one another for stronger applications. It isn't some unwritten thing or having to go online or YouTube. Which are not valid arguments, since not every person wants to have to do research to play a game. I'm not looking to make the game easier, just more fun. You want more people to find it accessible and fun. More people playing equals more opponents in pvp, more people to do trials with, and to level with. It doesn't take away from anyones precious online ego that the game "takes less skill." It still takes skill to know your class and others, and using that knowledge to use skills in any situation best. ESO tried to be different as an mmo, which is a good and bad thing.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Play a healer or a tank if this stuff is too much for you.

Banana

Its also awesome when youve got a variable ping of 300+.

FriedEggSandwich

If you're on pc then an mmo mouse with 6 or more thumb buttons makes it much easier smoother.

SoLooney

how is ani cancelling, bar swapping and weaving boring? if you dont do any of that, it gets slower and loss of dps. sounds more like i cant do any of this well, please remove

ill admit though having to add heavy attacks after morrowind makes it more boring

Nemesis7884

DeathHouseInc wrote: »

This is the conclusion I have come to after trying to emulate rotations in this game for the past two months.

It makes every DPS class to me monotonous and boring.

I understand light attacks need to be relevant...I think it should be a way that is actually fun.

kinda agree, it also doesnt feel immersive

Betsararie

All those things are fun (and also require skill).

Seriously, and I say this for your own good, you may want to look into an easier game if you can't do/ don't enjoy those things.

kuma82

It is usually the same remarks, you must not know how to play, or you can't do it well but I obviously can so it's fine. Those are weak rebuttals with no substance other than you must suck. Bar swapping sucks because you have to press another button just to get to more of your skills. Usually you have all skills out and just a matter of what button, or shift plus a button, to activate. Now there is an extra step. As I play on console I see the need with so few buttons available. I am use to mmos on pc, which is the best way to play an mmo.

The problem with learning rotations is that overland is so damn easy there is no need to bar swap or really know a rotation. Normal dungeons are the same except for the few bosses, but even then it doesn't come natural. So then people get thrust into veteran difficulty and have no clue what's going on. When games are usually made up of a high percentage of more casual gamers, it drives away a good chunk of people. I want to be as good as able, I am competitive, to a point, in games now and no longer do I pursue the hardcore endgame crowd. Even though i am more casual, I am willing to read, watch videos and practice. As I said most mmos have skills that tie together, or boost one another so it is much more natural how to weave in abilities and where.

Yes it is a loss of dps without cancellation, that isn't the point though. I personally would rather the game mechanics of the fight need more attention than having to nail down animation cancelling, swapping and weaving. Weaving isnt an issue for me really, just the cancelling and bar swapping a lot. Having low health, high enemy health and damage is a lazy test of skill. Having to do a lot of dps to kill a boss is normally a gear check more so than knowing all the mechanics. Gear checks don't really exist in eso though. New weapons don't have 200 more weapon dmg than last year's. I don't care if I have to roll dodge a lot, press buttons or levers, or cleanse allies. Again this is a problem because eso was made so different. Where normally gear boosts dps, and knowing of mechanics is what mainly gets you through a boss fight. Here it's just a rotation that can kill your dps, which just isn't that fun. You still need to know mechanics but rotation reigns in terms of dps. PvP is much more fun than pve in eso. Again this is nothing to do about if people have skill, leave that out. This is about enjoying the combat, not if you can do it.

The_Protagonist

kargen27 wrote: »

I've been trying to get better at weaving in light attacks. From time to time I will visit the target dummies and try to get a rhythm going. I start out slow just to get my fingers used to the pattern then try a little faster. I don't spend a lot of time at it but I am getting better. I can manage to get in a couple of good rotations out away from the dummies now, but when I do miss I never seem to get back into it again for that fight. Still better than I was.

I know I'm never going to get really good at a animation canceling rotation for the same reason I can't play the piano. My fingers just won't do what my brain tells them to.

Keep trying you will eventually get good at it, just keep practicing.

The_Protagonist

kuma82 wrote: »

It is usually the same remarks, you must not know how to play, or you can't do it well but I obviously can so it's fine. Those are weak rebuttals with no substance other than you must suck. Bar swapping sucks because you have to press another button just to get to more of your skills. Usually you have all skills out and just a matter of what button, or shift plus a button, to activate. Now there is an extra step. As I play on console I see the need with so few buttons available. I am use to mmos on pc, which is the best way to play an mmo.

The problem with learning rotations is that overland is so damn easy there is no need to bar swap or really know a rotation. Normal dungeons are the same except for the few bosses, but even then it doesn't come natural. So then people get thrust into veteran difficulty and have no clue what's going on. When games are usually made up of a high percentage of more casual gamers, it drives away a good chunk of people. I want to be as good as able, I am competitive, to a point, in games now and no longer do I pursue the hardcore endgame crowd. Even though i am more casual, I am willing to read, watch videos and practice. As I said most mmos have skills that tie together, or boost one another so it is much more natural how to weave in abilities and where.

Yes it is a loss of dps without cancellation, that isn't the point though. I personally would rather the game mechanics of the fight need more attention than having to nail down animation cancelling, swapping and weaving. Weaving isnt an issue for me really, just the cancelling and bar swapping a lot. Having low health, high enemy health and damage is a lazy test of skill. Having to do a lot of dps to kill a boss is normally a gear check more so than knowing all the mechanics. Gear checks don't really exist in eso though. New weapons don't have 200 more weapon dmg than last year's. I don't care if I have to roll dodge a lot, press buttons or levers, or cleanse allies. Again this is a problem because eso was made so different. Where normally gear boosts dps, and knowing of mechanics is what mainly gets you through a boss fight. Here it's just a rotation that can kill your dps, which just isn't that fun. You still need to know mechanics but rotation reigns in terms of dps. PvP is much more fun than pve in eso. Again this is nothing to do about if people have skill, leave that out. This is about enjoying the combat, not if you can do it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gqUx8zU08w

This helped me out, it's a bit old but you can get a good start from it.

GeorgeBlack

It's ugly and it does not promote reactive combat.
But since eso combat has no skill CDs but rather a universal CD the builds that use skills that can AC the smoothest win. That is what eso "skill" is all about.

The_Protagonist

There are a few things you need to invest in if you want to be good.

or

I also use

Even this requires quite a bit of commitment to get used to, but once you start getting the hang of it, you will never go back

kuma82

Like I said I play on console, so a controller just isn't what I'm use to and has limits. It still doesn't take away from the fact that animation cancelling and swapping are not fun. I would forgive it all still, if my damn buffs lasted longer. That just bugs the crap out of me having to rebuff so much during a fight. It makes me want to wear sets that give permanent buffs just to ignore that. Oh I hate having to press both bumpers for ultimate lol.

The_Protagonist

kuma82 wrote: »

Like I said I play on console, so a controller just isn't what I'm use to and has limits. It still doesn't take away from the fact that animation cancelling and swapping are not fun. I would forgive it all still, if my damn buffs lasted longer. That just bugs the crap out of me having to rebuff so much during a fight. It makes me want to wear sets that give permanent buffs just to ignore that. Oh I hate having to press both bumpers for ultimate lol.

Sorry did not see that you mentioned console, I have never played on console, but did try a game pad once and it felt very awkward, wasted some good bucks on that.

Khenarthi

The_Protagonist wrote: »

There are a few things you need to invest in if you want to be good.

or

I also use

Even this requires quite a bit of commitment to get used to, but once you start getting the hang of it, you will never go back

Even fancy gear won't help you if you're just clumsy. I have the naga and the orbweaver, and I'm still quite bad at dd rotations because my fingers just aren't that fast or coordinated.

Dojohoda

It's like we need a mechanical hand and a walze ( 1,2,3,1,2,3) to keep those buffs, debuffs, and damages up 100%. Can we get some good background music to help us time this stuff?

Zbigb4life

It should be fixed as it is not intended!

Rohamad_Ali

It's not fun for people with carpal tunnel , that's for sure . Since playing with some older friends that have office jobs and type all day at work they get pain from it and log out . I think it's a fun mechanic but I can see why others may not like it . Not everyone likes the same stuff . I play games with and without it and have fun either way .

Betsararie

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

It's not fun for people with carpal tunnel , that's for sure . Since playing with some older friends that have office jobs and type all day at work they get pain from it and log out . I think it's a fun mechanic but I can see why others may not like it . Not everyone likes the same stuff . I play games with and without it and have fun either way .

I've always loved it.

Faster paced games and usually skill based games incorporate it. In most cases a game can't really be fast paced without legitimate animation cancelling, else it will feel like a kiddie game.

What's so sad about this thread is it's basically taking some of the best aspects of the combat system and basically saying they don't have a place. Hello Kitty: Island Adventure is that way.
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Rohamad_Ali

Blanco wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

It's not fun for people with carpal tunnel , that's for sure . Since playing with some older friends that have office jobs and type all day at work they get pain from it and log out . I think it's a fun mechanic but I can see why others may not like it . Not everyone likes the same stuff . I play games with and without it and have fun either way .

I've always loved it.

Faster paced games and usually skill based games incorporate it. In most cases a game can't really be fast paced without legitimate animation cancelling, else it will feel like a kiddie game.

What's so sad about this thread is it's basically taking some of the best aspects of the combat system and basically saying they don't have a place. Hello Kitty: Island Adventure is that way.
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Well I understand and we both like it but once again you are someone feeling like someone is going to take something away from you so you're lashing out with the mean words like "kiddie" and hello kitty games ... ZOS has no plans to remove it so put your word pistols back in their holsters Lash Laroo .