What Do You Mean When You Say Someone Shield Stacks?

RoamingRiverElk

I often see people refer to someone 'shield stacking'. Usually this is in a negative context and it is often meant to imply that someone is surviving too easily.

But what do you personally mean when you say someone is shield stacking?

ak_pvp

ANY combination of 2 from: Hardened Ward, Harness Magicka/Dampen Magic, Healing Ward

Normally my only issue would be hardened+x. Way too big. But healing+harness is also quite irritating, not because its big, its decently survivable, which is OK but because it ignores status effects while being big enough to keep up constantly

Gilvoth

Trap Poll

here in your poll we see that what ever we choose, the remainder of what was not chosen can be used as a help in a sorcerers argument that the shield be allowed to keep said shield or shield'(s) because it wasn't voted for or against.
and therefore:
this is a trap poll.

first of all, if i fight sorcerers, i have zero idea of what shields they are casting.
all we see is the sorcerer with shields being spammed and we are unable to do any damage to them because of "said" shield or shield'(s). and then this unkillable Tank sorcerer begins to kill entire groups of 30 people because that sorcerers shields wont allow anyone to kill them because of thier shields. and also hiding behind trees and structures and mass heal and spam shields as we chase them around the structure.

which at that point is no longer PvP, it has become hide and seek the shielded player.

Johnfred24

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

Trap Poll

unkillable Tank sorcerer begins to kill entire groups of 30 people because that sorcerers shields wont allow anyone to kill them because of thier shields.

LOL. You and your 29 friends seem to be the worst zerg of all time

paulsimonps

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

Trap Poll

here in your poll we see that what ever we choose, the remainder of what was not chosen can be used as a help in a sorcerers argument that the shield be allowed to keep said shield or shield'(s) because it wasn't voted for or against.
and therefore:
this is a trap poll.

first of all, if i fight sorcerers, i have zero idea of what shields they are casting.
all we see is the sorcerer with shields being spammed and we are unable to do any damage to them because of "said" shield or shield'(s). and then this unkillable Tank sorcerer begins to kill entire groups of 30 people because that sorcerers shields wont allow anyone to kill them because of thier shields. and also hiding behind trees and structures and mass heal and spam shields as we chase them around the structure.

which at that point is no longer PvP, it has become hide and seek the shielded player.

If a group of 30 people got killed by 1 sorc then they deserve to die, A LOT.

Biro123

paulsimonps wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

Trap Poll

here in your poll we see that what ever we choose, the remainder of what was not chosen can be used as a help in a sorcerers argument that the shield be allowed to keep said shield or shield'(s) because it wasn't voted for or against.
and therefore:
this is a trap poll.

first of all, if i fight sorcerers, i have zero idea of what shields they are casting.
all we see is the sorcerer with shields being spammed and we are unable to do any damage to them because of "said" shield or shield'(s). and then this unkillable Tank sorcerer begins to kill entire groups of 30 people because that sorcerers shields wont allow anyone to kill them because of thier shields. and also hiding behind trees and structures and mass heal and spam shields as we chase them around the structure.

which at that point is no longer PvP, it has become hide and seek the shielded player.

If a group of 30 people got killed by 1 sorc then they deserve to die, A LOT.

Exactly - any 3 semi-competent is an instant death penalty to a sorc (and I do mean instant) unless he has light's champ up... in which case, he buys a bit more time.

@dwemer_paleologist You do know, right that as defences go, shields are the single WORST defence in game vs multiple attackers. And the more attackers, the worse it gets.

Derra

Specifically Hardened Ward + Harness Magicka/Dampen Magic + Healing Ward

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

first of all, if i fight sorcerers, i have zero idea [...] this unkillable Tank sorcerer begins to kill entire groups of 30 people because that sorcerers shields wont allow anyone to kill them because of thier shields.

Jesus this is great.

If you think using healing ward + any shield ist stacking got and tell wrobel to rework the heal of resto staff. It´s not like people have a choice.

Beardimus

ANY combination of 3 or 4 from: Hardened Ward, Harness Magicka/Dampen Magic, Healing Ward, Obsidian Shield

I think its a triple stack (WHICH NO SORC DOES NOW)

99% of those Nerf Sorc threads would think its one ward. One time. And its QQ salty tears of ward hate on forum.

NBrookus

Specifically Hardened Ward + Harness Magicka/Dampen Magic

Healing Ward is a necessity for many, many builds and you may not get it. (And if you do, it may not heal you.) IMO, it's jsut harness + hardened that's an issue. If they prevented these two from stacking, I think Hardened should get a buff since it's really the only sorc defense.

I kinda lol'd at the option to think stacking a 1k shield from the reinforced passive with a 3k Igneous is "shield stacking."

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

first of all, if i fight sorcerers, i have zero idea of what shields they are casting.

The animations are quite different.

ToRelax

Other, please specify

RoamingRiverElk wrote: »

But what do you personally mean when you say someone is shield stacking?

I say which shields they are stacking.

Betsararie

ANY combination of 2 from: Hardened Ward, Harness Magicka/Dampen Magic, Healing Ward

It doesn't have to include hardened ward, so yes that means any mag class can shield stack (and often do).

Drummerx04

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

Trap Poll

here in your poll we see that what ever we choose, the remainder of what was not chosen can be used as a help in a sorcerers argument that the shield be allowed to keep said shield or shield'(s) because it wasn't voted for or against.
and therefore:
this is a trap poll.

first of all, if i fight sorcerers, i have zero idea of what shields they are casting.
all we see is the sorcerer with shields being spammed and we are unable to do any damage to them because of "said" shield or shield'(s). and then this unkillable Tank sorcerer begins to kill entire groups of 30 people because that sorcerers shields wont allow anyone to kill them because of thier shields. and also hiding behind trees and structures and mass heal and spam shields as we chase them around the structure.

which at that point is no longer PvP, it has become hide and seek the shielded player.

And this is probably a shining example of why community balance suggestions aren't taken seriously by ZOS

Biro123

I have no idea..

There seem to be people who seem to think shieldbreaker only affects shieldstackers. So I guess by some definitions a shieldstacker is anybody who has a shield on them.

Its not listed in the poll though.


But I guess most view it harness/hardened.. But really how do most sorcs use that combo? Hardly any will constantly keep a full stack of both of them - why? because it lowers your window to do damage too much - and costs too many resources to maintain (meaning you need more recov - and therefore less dmg in your build)..

For me - like any defence mechanism, it all depends on the kind of pressure you're under.:

Not in combat - no shield.

No pressure - ie. zerg vs zerg and the opposition are losing - no real need to shield at all. Will pop it every now and then if there are no attackers to target, but have no problem with letting it drop occasionally.

Slight pressure - ie. your opponents are either mostly targeting others or mostly on the defensive, but you could suddenly get hit with a burst - hardened only, but making sure its kept up.

Med pressure - constant medium pressure. Hardened alone is not lasting its duration so shields need to be regularly refreshed.. Then for me I use both - but not with a full stack.. I'll do hardened, and when its getting low, do harness - when its getting low, hardened again. This means a small stack for a short while as you cast the new one, but no risky gaps where you could be easily cc'd/burst. Dodge/block is kept in reserve for any nasty burst/cc's sudden zergs.

Heavy pressure is constant hardened/harness, while looking for a way to either escape or counter. You either need to do one or the other or its game-over. Dodge is usually needed as an aid to escaping. The incoming pressure is so high that yes, you are stacking, but that stack is taken down in less than a second. Very vulnerable to anything that stops you from shielding - ie a CC, or running oom, or risking a streak instead of a shield to try to escape.. or he cast-time for lights champion..
But can this be really considered a shield-stack if it lasts less than a second?

Readying for heavy pressure. This is the only instance where I'd say that I intentionally shield-stack.. say if I'm about to go into a defended breach or streak though a ball-group or go into range of a ton of wall defenders.. Situations where you know the pressure will be huge - but only for a short time. Then yes, I'll stack both and dive in - but have to dive back out pretty quick - cos yeah, a shield-stack is no substitute for a proper tank.

It not much different from stam classes using a combination of block/dodge/rally/vigour + class defence based on the kind of pressure coming in.

WillhelmBlack

Other, please specify

Stacking shields.

Apherius

I think players talk about harness magicka + hardened ward when they say " shield stacking " of course all other combinaison of shields could be called " shield stacking " but in this case it's 2 big shield ( not in no cp ) so this drive people crazy ,

btw i don't think the stack of healing ward and hardened ward OR healing ward + harness magicka is a problem , some class classe like templar have a good self heal while some class need to put a resto staff AND healing ward cause it's the best healing skill for pvp they had found for magicka ...

Phreeki

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

Trap Poll

here in your poll we see that what ever we choose, the remainder of what was not chosen can be used as a help in a sorcerers argument that the shield be allowed to keep said shield or shield'(s) because it wasn't voted for or against.
and therefore:
this is a trap poll.

first of all, if i fight sorcerers, i have zero idea of what shields they are casting.
all we see is the sorcerer with shields being spammed and we are unable to do any damage to them because of "said" shield or shield'(s). and then this unkillable Tank sorcerer begins to kill entire groups of 30 people because that sorcerers shields wont allow anyone to kill them because of thier shields. and also hiding behind trees and structures and mass heal and spam shields as we chase them around the structure.

which at that point is no longer PvP, it has become hide and seek the shielded player.

This statement shows that you have absolutely no idea how shields work or how to counter them, shields do not need a nerf, people need to l2p.

Bashev

ANY combination of 2 from: Hardened Ward, Harness Magicka/Dampen Magic, Healing Ward

Derra wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

first of all, if i fight sorcerers, i have zero idea [...] this unkillable Tank sorcerer begins to kill entire groups of 30 people because that sorcerers shields wont allow anyone to kill them because of thier shields.

Jesus this is great.

If you think using healing ward + any shield ist stacking got and tell wrobel to rework the heal of resto staff. It´s not like people have a choice.

What do you mean with "wrobel to rework the heal of resto staff"?

ToRelax

Other, please specify

Bashev wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

first of all, if i fight sorcerers, i have zero idea [...] this unkillable Tank sorcerer begins to kill entire groups of 30 people because that sorcerers shields wont allow anyone to kill them because of thier shields.

Jesus this is great.

If you think using healing ward + any shield ist stacking got and tell wrobel to rework the heal of resto staff. It´s not like people have a choice.

What do you mean with "wrobel to rework the heal of resto staff"?

Giving us a burst heal that isn't a shield.

Dk_needs_a_buff

Specifically Hardened Ward + Harness Magicka/Dampen Magic

On a sorc the only problem some people have is the 3rd shield. Make it so sorcs cant stack theyr shield and the light gear 1. Problem solved

Bashev

ANY combination of 2 from: Hardened Ward, Harness Magicka/Dampen Magic, Healing Ward

ToRelax wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

first of all, if i fight sorcerers, i have zero idea [...] this unkillable Tank sorcerer begins to kill entire groups of 30 people because that sorcerers shields wont allow anyone to kill them because of thier shields.

Jesus this is great.

If you think using healing ward + any shield ist stacking got and tell wrobel to rework the heal of resto staff. It´s not like people have a choice.

What do you mean with "wrobel to rework the heal of resto staff"?

Giving us a burst heal that isn't a shield.

But blessing of restoration has the same healing coefficient as Coagulating Blood except that it is cheaper.

Biro123

Bashev wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

first of all, if i fight sorcerers, i have zero idea [...] this unkillable Tank sorcerer begins to kill entire groups of 30 people because that sorcerers shields wont allow anyone to kill them because of thier shields.

Jesus this is great.

If you think using healing ward + any shield ist stacking got and tell wrobel to rework the heal of resto staff. It´s not like people have a choice.

What do you mean with "wrobel to rework the heal of resto staff"?

Giving us a burst heal that isn't a shield.

But blessing of restoration has the same healing coefficient as Coagulating Blood except that it is cheaper.

However it can't be block-cast with snb. or cast with a snb ulti up.. So in terms of having a heal which can be used *while* mitigating damage to make the most of the 'effective health' returned - it's simply not in the same ball-park.
Not to mention the complete lack of any healing given/received buffs for sorcs, when compared to DK.
This is the crux of the problem as to why all magsorcs rely on shields.

- No reliable class-based heals = being tied to resto staff = no healing while having decent blocking.
- No class spammable = being tied to destro staff = no option to run snb + resto for mitigation-based defence + heals.

Result? Destro/resto + shields. (or perhaps DW/resto + shields)

Bashev

ANY combination of 2 from: Hardened Ward, Harness Magicka/Dampen Magic, Healing Ward

Biro123 wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

first of all, if i fight sorcerers, i have zero idea [...] this unkillable Tank sorcerer begins to kill entire groups of 30 people because that sorcerers shields wont allow anyone to kill them because of thier shields.

Jesus this is great.

If you think using healing ward + any shield ist stacking got and tell wrobel to rework the heal of resto staff. It´s not like people have a choice.

What do you mean with "wrobel to rework the heal of resto staff"?

Giving us a burst heal that isn't a shield.

But blessing of restoration has the same healing coefficient as Coagulating Blood except that it is cheaper.

However it can't be block-cast with snb. or cast with a snb ulti up.. So in terms of having a heal which can be used *while* mitigating damage to make the most of the 'effective health' returned - it's simply not in the same ball-park.
Not to mention the complete lack of any healing given/received buffs for sorcs, when compared to DK.
This is the crux of the problem as to why all magsorcs rely on shields.

- No reliable class-based heals = being tied to resto staff = no healing while having decent blocking.
- No class spammable = being tied to destro staff = no option to run snb + resto for mitigation-based defence + heals.

Result? Destro/resto + shields. (or perhaps DW/resto + shields)

But ToRelax said that you need burst heal. What is a burst heal for you? There is only 1 better heal in the game which is BoL and I doubt that ZoS will give a better burst heal in the healing staff. On top of that blessing of restorations is AoE heal.

Lets dont lie, Sorcs love the shield stacking and they dont give a *** for the healing.

If we consider that there are 3 types of active defence in the game: block, dodge and shileds, there is not a single skill which counter directly shields.

All channels cannot be dodged + the bird. Curse and Backlash cannot be dodged. All aoe and ground damage skills cannot be dodged. All dots cannot be dodged.

All AoEs, Dots and ground target skills cannot be blocked. Curse and Backlash cannot be blocked.

It looks like you can counter the other 2 defensive mechanics but there is no counter to shields. ZOS should give us some skills that should counter shields. Imagine if there is skill like curse and backlash which bypass shields what will be the rage of the Sorcs community (one of the most vocal in the game).

As I said nothing stops you to use shields + heals as people use block + heals and dodge + heals.

Biro123

Bashev wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

first of all, if i fight sorcerers, i have zero idea [...] this unkillable Tank sorcerer begins to kill entire groups of 30 people because that sorcerers shields wont allow anyone to kill them because of thier shields.

Jesus this is great.

If you think using healing ward + any shield ist stacking got and tell wrobel to rework the heal of resto staff. It´s not like people have a choice.

What do you mean with "wrobel to rework the heal of resto staff"?

Giving us a burst heal that isn't a shield.

But blessing of restoration has the same healing coefficient as Coagulating Blood except that it is cheaper.

However it can't be block-cast with snb. or cast with a snb ulti up.. So in terms of having a heal which can be used *while* mitigating damage to make the most of the 'effective health' returned - it's simply not in the same ball-park.
Not to mention the complete lack of any healing given/received buffs for sorcs, when compared to DK.
This is the crux of the problem as to why all magsorcs rely on shields.

- No reliable class-based heals = being tied to resto staff = no healing while having decent blocking.
- No class spammable = being tied to destro staff = no option to run snb + resto for mitigation-based defence + heals.

Result? Destro/resto + shields. (or perhaps DW/resto + shields)

But ToRelax said that you need burst heal. What is a burst heal for you? There is only 1 better heal in the game which is BoL and I doubt that ZoS will give a better burst heal in the healing staff. On top of that blessing of restorations is AoE heal.

Lets dont lie, Sorcs love the shield stacking and they dont give a *** for the healing.

If we consider that there are 3 types of active defence in the game: block, dodge and shileds, there is not a single skill which counter directly shields.

All channels cannot be dodged + the bird. Curse and Backlash cannot be dodged. All aoe and ground damage skills cannot be dodged. All dots cannot be dodged.

All AoEs, Dots and ground target skills cannot be blocked. Curse and Backlash cannot be blocked.

It looks like you can counter the other 2 defensive mechanics but there is no counter to shields. ZOS should give us some skills that should counter shields. Imagine if there is skill like curse and backlash which bypass shields what will be the rage of the Sorcs community (one of the most vocal in the game).

As I said nothing stops you to use shields + heals as people use block + heals and dodge + heals.

You missed the point.

I'm saying 'what alternatives are there?' How can a sorc have any kind of competitive build that does NOT involve shields given the tools available?
You can't blame people for using the only reliable tool in the box.

But to answer your question.
Oblivion, outnumbered, cc, and pressure. There are your shield counters.

Bashev

ANY combination of 2 from: Hardened Ward, Harness Magicka/Dampen Magic, Healing Ward

Biro123 wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

first of all, if i fight sorcerers, i have zero idea [...] this unkillable Tank sorcerer begins to kill entire groups of 30 people because that sorcerers shields wont allow anyone to kill them because of thier shields.

Jesus this is great.

If you think using healing ward + any shield ist stacking got and tell wrobel to rework the heal of resto staff. It´s not like people have a choice.

What do you mean with "wrobel to rework the heal of resto staff"?

Giving us a burst heal that isn't a shield.

But blessing of restoration has the same healing coefficient as Coagulating Blood except that it is cheaper.

However it can't be block-cast with snb. or cast with a snb ulti up.. So in terms of having a heal which can be used *while* mitigating damage to make the most of the 'effective health' returned - it's simply not in the same ball-park.
Not to mention the complete lack of any healing given/received buffs for sorcs, when compared to DK.
This is the crux of the problem as to why all magsorcs rely on shields.

- No reliable class-based heals = being tied to resto staff = no healing while having decent blocking.
- No class spammable = being tied to destro staff = no option to run snb + resto for mitigation-based defence + heals.

Result? Destro/resto + shields. (or perhaps DW/resto + shields)

But ToRelax said that you need burst heal. What is a burst heal for you? There is only 1 better heal in the game which is BoL and I doubt that ZoS will give a better burst heal in the healing staff. On top of that blessing of restorations is AoE heal.

Lets dont lie, Sorcs love the shield stacking and they dont give a *** for the healing.

If we consider that there are 3 types of active defence in the game: block, dodge and shileds, there is not a single skill which counter directly shields.

All channels cannot be dodged + the bird. Curse and Backlash cannot be dodged. All aoe and ground damage skills cannot be dodged. All dots cannot be dodged.

All AoEs, Dots and ground target skills cannot be blocked. Curse and Backlash cannot be blocked.

It looks like you can counter the other 2 defensive mechanics but there is no counter to shields. ZOS should give us some skills that should counter shields. Imagine if there is skill like curse and backlash which bypass shields what will be the rage of the Sorcs community (one of the most vocal in the game).

As I said nothing stops you to use shields + heals as people use block + heals and dodge + heals.

You missed the point.

I'm saying 'what alternatives are there?' How can a sorc have any kind of competitive build that does NOT involve shields given the tools available?
You can't blame people for using the only reliable tool in the box.

But to answer your question.
Oblivion, outnumbered, cc, and pressure. There are your shield counters.

But that is not the answer. If you make some skills do oblivion damage ok. Outnumbered, cc, and pressure counter roll dodge and block the same way.
Imagine if curse is blockable, mage wrath explosion and impolsion are all blockable. Then you will understand how bad is fighting playstyles where the only counter is oblivion, CC, outnumber them and put pressure.

Jake1576

Your choices was confusing so I didn't choose but I will say when I talk about shield stacking I'm talking about any combination of two shields that are up on a player at the same time that is what I would consider shield stacking every time you get through there first shield you find yet another shield to follow the previous one

Maulkin

ANY combination of 2 shields, including Hardened Ward, Harness Magicka, Healing Ward, Obsidian Shield, Barrier, any minor damage shields from sets or CP etc

Bashev wrote: »

Lets dont lie, Sorcs love the shield stacking and they dont give a *** for the healing.

Errm.. Sorry but I call ***. If Dark Deal was instant and could be used in combat without the risk (i.e. certainty) of being interrupted and CCed, I'd drop the Resto Staff and Healing Ward instantly for solo play. I'd backbar S&B and get more stats, more armor, an extra set piece which would allow me to have a monster 2-piece.

People have explained why BoR is not used but you refuse to acknowledge it. It's inferior to self-heals that can be block-casted behind a S&B and its inferior to Heal Ward for healing allies because it's not a smart heal. If I need to heal a mate, I don't have to be in a flat ground and facing them. On top of it, Heal Ward heals scale with Bastion passive for shield size so you get more benefit out of one CP passive instead of having to branch out to 2 passives.

I mean if BoR is so great and only inferior to BoL, why don't DK's play it? Or Wardens? Or NBs?

Biro123

Maulkin wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Lets dont lie, Sorcs love the shield stacking and they dont give a *** for the healing.

Errm.. Sorry but I call ***. If Dark Deal was instant and could be used in combat without the risk (i.e. certainty) of being interrupted and CCed, I'd drop the Resto Staff and Healing Ward instantly for solo play. I'd backbar S&B and get more stats, more armor, an extra set piece which would allow me to have a monster 2-piece.

Me too

Biro123

Bashev wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

first of all, if i fight sorcerers, i have zero idea [...] this unkillable Tank sorcerer begins to kill entire groups of 30 people because that sorcerers shields wont allow anyone to kill them because of thier shields.

Jesus this is great.

If you think using healing ward + any shield ist stacking got and tell wrobel to rework the heal of resto staff. It´s not like people have a choice.

What do you mean with "wrobel to rework the heal of resto staff"?

Giving us a burst heal that isn't a shield.

But blessing of restoration has the same healing coefficient as Coagulating Blood except that it is cheaper.

However it can't be block-cast with snb. or cast with a snb ulti up.. So in terms of having a heal which can be used *while* mitigating damage to make the most of the 'effective health' returned - it's simply not in the same ball-park.
Not to mention the complete lack of any healing given/received buffs for sorcs, when compared to DK.
This is the crux of the problem as to why all magsorcs rely on shields.

- No reliable class-based heals = being tied to resto staff = no healing while having decent blocking.
- No class spammable = being tied to destro staff = no option to run snb + resto for mitigation-based defence + heals.

Result? Destro/resto + shields. (or perhaps DW/resto + shields)

But ToRelax said that you need burst heal. What is a burst heal for you? There is only 1 better heal in the game which is BoL and I doubt that ZoS will give a better burst heal in the healing staff. On top of that blessing of restorations is AoE heal.

Lets dont lie, Sorcs love the shield stacking and they dont give a *** for the healing.

If we consider that there are 3 types of active defence in the game: block, dodge and shileds, there is not a single skill which counter directly shields.

All channels cannot be dodged + the bird. Curse and Backlash cannot be dodged. All aoe and ground damage skills cannot be dodged. All dots cannot be dodged.

All AoEs, Dots and ground target skills cannot be blocked. Curse and Backlash cannot be blocked.

It looks like you can counter the other 2 defensive mechanics but there is no counter to shields. ZOS should give us some skills that should counter shields. Imagine if there is skill like curse and backlash which bypass shields what will be the rage of the Sorcs community (one of the most vocal in the game).

As I said nothing stops you to use shields + heals as people use block + heals and dodge + heals.

You missed the point.

I'm saying 'what alternatives are there?' How can a sorc have any kind of competitive build that does NOT involve shields given the tools available?
You can't blame people for using the only reliable tool in the box.

But to answer your question.
Oblivion, outnumbered, cc, and pressure. There are your shield counters.

But that is not the answer. If you make some skills do oblivion damage ok. Outnumbered, cc, and pressure counter roll dodge and block the same way.
Imagine if curse is blockable, mage wrath explosion and impolsion are all blockable. Then you will understand how bad is fighting playstyles where the only counter is oblivion, CC, outnumber them and put pressure.

Why not? Sorcs terrible healing makes oblivion builds wreck sorcs. Shields scale worse than every other defensive mechanic when outnumbered. I mean, yeah, this is an extreme example - but it illustrates the point. If a sorc can do 11k sps(shield per second) and a wrecking-blow can deliver 8k per hit, 1v1 shield is strong. If 10 people do an 8k wrecking blow at the same time - shielded sorc = insta-dead. But one single dodgeroll.....
And blocking? seriously? There is a reason that every single build that can tank multiple players over a number of minutes uses block, not shields as its main defence. Its because shields simply cannot handle the pressure.
And how does CC pressure block and dodge, when it doesn't apply to them at all?
And just sheer pressure.? Well vs shields, it forces them into shield-spamming just to stay alive.. at that point they've already lost, because its not sustainable forever, and every CC means health dropping. They are not attacking back and so no danger to the pressurer.. compared to blocking.. well can you not 'block-cast'? can you not to attacks ani-cancelled with roll-dodge? Basically the other defences can allow you to also attack while pressured. Pressured shield-users can't.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying shields are fine - because they ARE strong in a 1v1 - but they are also too weak in many vs many (pretending that it isn't is just wrong) - so any balancing has to take that into account.

ak_pvp

ANY combination of 2 from: Hardened Ward, Harness Magicka/Dampen Magic, Healing Ward

Biro123 wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

first of all, if i fight sorcerers, i have zero idea [...] this unkillable Tank sorcerer begins to kill entire groups of 30 people because that sorcerers shields wont allow anyone to kill them because of thier shields.

Jesus this is great.

If you think using healing ward + any shield ist stacking got and tell wrobel to rework the heal of resto staff. It´s not like people have a choice.

What do you mean with "wrobel to rework the heal of resto staff"?

Giving us a burst heal that isn't a shield.

But blessing of restoration has the same healing coefficient as Coagulating Blood except that it is cheaper.

However it can't be block-cast with snb. or cast with a snb ulti up.. So in terms of having a heal which can be used *while* mitigating damage to make the most of the 'effective health' returned - it's simply not in the same ball-park.
Not to mention the complete lack of any healing given/received buffs for sorcs, when compared to DK.
This is the crux of the problem as to why all magsorcs rely on shields.

- No reliable class-based heals = being tied to resto staff = no healing while having decent blocking.
- No class spammable = being tied to destro staff = no option to run snb + resto for mitigation-based defence + heals.

Result? Destro/resto + shields. (or perhaps DW/resto + shields)

But ToRelax said that you need burst heal. What is a burst heal for you? There is only 1 better heal in the game which is BoL and I doubt that ZoS will give a better burst heal in the healing staff. On top of that blessing of restorations is AoE heal.

Lets dont lie, Sorcs love the shield stacking and they dont give a *** for the healing.

If we consider that there are 3 types of active defence in the game: block, dodge and shileds, there is not a single skill which counter directly shields.

All channels cannot be dodged + the bird. Curse and Backlash cannot be dodged. All aoe and ground damage skills cannot be dodged. All dots cannot be dodged.

All AoEs, Dots and ground target skills cannot be blocked. Curse and Backlash cannot be blocked.

It looks like you can counter the other 2 defensive mechanics but there is no counter to shields. ZOS should give us some skills that should counter shields. Imagine if there is skill like curse and backlash which bypass shields what will be the rage of the Sorcs community (one of the most vocal in the game).

As I said nothing stops you to use shields + heals as people use block + heals and dodge + heals.

You missed the point.

I'm saying 'what alternatives are there?' How can a sorc have any kind of competitive build that does NOT involve shields given the tools available?
You can't blame people for using the only reliable tool in the box.

But to answer your question.
Oblivion, outnumbered, cc, and pressure. There are your shield counters.

[/quote]

This statement shows that you have absolutely no idea how shields work or how to counter them, shields do not need a nerf, people need to l2p. [/quote]

They aren't shield counters. Outnumbering, and pressure are detrimental to anything. Cc doesn't drop shields, unlike block. Oblivion is a counter to everything. Block, dodge and shields. Also oblivion isn't very viable

The one proper counter that actually affects use of shields is a set. Having to run a set to get a worthwhile counter is bad design, both unfair to a player and a sorc.

Look at dodge/block. It takes aoe or dot damage. With some attacks going through it, I.e. Skoria for dodge or fear for block. No easy counters for shields, they can't even have status effects. And again as for block zos constantly nerfs it. No regen, extra cost ticks, abilities that ignore. As for shields?

Finally, shields require minimal sacrifice. Block requires building into heavily and a loss of mobility. Shields may take a gcd, but last after cast unlike block constant, and burst is needed more, not constant pressure, so it changes little.

Shields are broken.

OdinForge

What it's supposed to mean is that you are combining hardened ward with annulment and healing ward, for two to three active shields. What it really means to most plebs here is that they've run into a sorc holding a stick, and calling them a shield stacker negates their inevitable death or justifies their zerging of said sorc, even if said sorc is only casting one shield.

Biro123

ak_pvp wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

first of all, if i fight sorcerers, i have zero idea [...] this unkillable Tank sorcerer begins to kill entire groups of 30 people because that sorcerers shields wont allow anyone to kill them because of thier shields.

Jesus this is great.

If you think using healing ward + any shield ist stacking got and tell wrobel to rework the heal of resto staff. It´s not like people have a choice.

What do you mean with "wrobel to rework the heal of resto staff"?

Giving us a burst heal that isn't a shield.

But blessing of restoration has the same healing coefficient as Coagulating Blood except that it is cheaper.

However it can't be block-cast with snb. or cast with a snb ulti up.. So in terms of having a heal which can be used *while* mitigating damage to make the most of the 'effective health' returned - it's simply not in the same ball-park.
Not to mention the complete lack of any healing given/received buffs for sorcs, when compared to DK.
This is the crux of the problem as to why all magsorcs rely on shields.

- No reliable class-based heals = being tied to resto staff = no healing while having decent blocking.
- No class spammable = being tied to destro staff = no option to run snb + resto for mitigation-based defence + heals.

Result? Destro/resto + shields. (or perhaps DW/resto + shields)

But ToRelax said that you need burst heal. What is a burst heal for you? There is only 1 better heal in the game which is BoL and I doubt that ZoS will give a better burst heal in the healing staff. On top of that blessing of restorations is AoE heal.

Lets dont lie, Sorcs love the shield stacking and they dont give a *** for the healing.

If we consider that there are 3 types of active defence in the game: block, dodge and shileds, there is not a single skill which counter directly shields.

All channels cannot be dodged + the bird. Curse and Backlash cannot be dodged. All aoe and ground damage skills cannot be dodged. All dots cannot be dodged.

All AoEs, Dots and ground target skills cannot be blocked. Curse and Backlash cannot be blocked.

It looks like you can counter the other 2 defensive mechanics but there is no counter to shields. ZOS should give us some skills that should counter shields. Imagine if there is skill like curse and backlash which bypass shields what will be the rage of the Sorcs community (one of the most vocal in the game).

As I said nothing stops you to use shields + heals as people use block + heals and dodge + heals.

You missed the point.

I'm saying 'what alternatives are there?' How can a sorc have any kind of competitive build that does NOT involve shields given the tools available?
You can't blame people for using the only reliable tool in the box.

But to answer your question.
Oblivion, outnumbered, cc, and pressure. There are your shield counters.

This statement shows that you have absolutely no idea how shields work or how to counter them, shields do not need a nerf, people need to l2p. [/quote]

They aren't shield counters. Outnumbering, and pressure are detrimental to anything. Cc doesn't drop shields, unlike block. Oblivion is a counter to everything. Block, dodge and shields. Also oblivion isn't very viable

The one proper counter that actually affects use of shields is a set. Having to run a set to get a worthwhile counter is bad design, both unfair to a player and a sorc.

Look at dodge/block. It takes aoe or dot damage. With some attacks going through it, I.e. Skoria for dodge or fear for block. No easy counters for shields, they can't even have status effects. And again as for block zos constantly nerfs it. No regen, extra cost ticks, abilities that ignore. As for shields?

Finally, shields require minimal sacrifice. Block requires building into heavily and a loss of mobility. Shields may take a gcd, but last after cast unlike block constant, and burst is needed more, not constant pressure, so it changes little.

Shields are broken. [/quote]

Nah man, pressure. Shields are a fantastic buffer for handling burst. I had no problems with the old stam procset meta - but I now come across the odd DW stam setup that tears through my shields faster than I can cast them. That's why multiple opponents mess up shields.. pressure. Often its burst that finishes the job, but without that pressure in the first place, the burst wouldn't be enough.