WoW made me appreciate ESO

Enslaved

Vaoh wrote: »

If ESO is so much better, how is it that WoW is so insanely popular and ESO isn't? Surely WoW is much better than what everyone makes it out to be, right? From what I hear WoW loses players inbetween expansion releases but each expansion brings back the massive playerbase.

Legit asking cause I've only ever played ESO. I can't relate to any of this stuff.

WoW is like you have 20k skills on your screen and then you press one and it is on cooldown for 2 years or so, but that is just fine since screen explodes anyway and you get to channel another 12 second skill on another enemy that could kill you only if you were naked and without keyboard. But at least it has non broken lore and you get to see a lot of planets and pandas are fluffy.

just kidding

Linaleah

Enslaved wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

If ESO is so much better, how is it that WoW is so insanely popular and ESO isn't? Surely WoW is much better than what everyone makes it out to be, right? From what I hear WoW loses players inbetween expansion releases but each expansion brings back the massive playerbase.

Legit asking cause I've only ever played ESO. I can't relate to any of this stuff.

WoW is like you have 20k skills on your screen and then you press one and it is on cooldown for 2 years or so, but that is just fine since screen explodes anyway and you get to channel another 12 second skill on another enemy that could kill you only if you were naked and without keyboard. But at least it has non broken lore and you get to see a lot of planets and pandas are fluffy.

just kidding

I'm sorry.. did you just say.. WoW has non broken lore? can I have what you are having, becasue I don't think you can say that sober and with full seriousness. dude.. they have rewritten and retconed their own lore multiple times. up to an including introducing multiple contradictions, flip flopping, for no good reason, characters, dropped storylines and that's just in game stuff. you start going into expanded universe and holy hell. even with the whole parallel history thing they came up with for Warlords of Draenor - its STILL broken

at least Elder scrolls have a built in explanation for inconsistencies early on, not tacked on later (dragon break) and last I checked ZOS is still trying to stick to the rest of the lore for the most part

oh and you get 3 planets with WoW. you get 2 planes of existence with ESO (nirn and oblivion). I guess WoW wins?... by 1.

oh wait.. I see the spoiler now. whew, was worried there for a second.

Enslaved

Linaleah wrote: »

Enslaved wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

If ESO is so much better, how is it that WoW is so insanely popular and ESO isn't? Surely WoW is much better than what everyone makes it out to be, right? From what I hear WoW loses players inbetween expansion releases but each expansion brings back the massive playerbase.

Legit asking cause I've only ever played ESO. I can't relate to any of this stuff.

WoW is like you have 20k skills on your screen and then you press one and it is on cooldown for 2 years or so, but that is just fine since screen explodes anyway and you get to channel another 12 second skill on another enemy that could kill you only if you were naked and without keyboard. But at least it has non broken lore and you get to see a lot of planets and pandas are fluffy.

just kidding

I'm sorry.. did you just say.. WoW has non broken lore? can I have what you are having, becasue I don't think you can say that sober and with full seriousness. dude.. they have rewritten and retconed their own lore multiple times. up to an including introducing multiple contradictions, flip flopping, for no good reason, characters, dropped storylines and that's just in game stuff. you start going into expanded universe and holy hell. even with the whole parallel history thing they came up with for Warlords of Draenor - its STILL broken

at least Elder scrolls have a built in explanation for inconsistencies early on, not tacked on later (dragon break) and last I checked ZOS is still trying to stick to the rest of the lore for the most part

oh and you get 3 planets with WoW. you get 2 planes of existence with ESO (nirn and oblivion). I guess WoW wins?... by 1.

oh wait.. I see the spoiler now. whew, was worried there for a second.

Pro tip - read spoiler.

Linaleah

Enslaved wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Enslaved wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

If ESO is so much better, how is it that WoW is so insanely popular and ESO isn't? Surely WoW is much better than what everyone makes it out to be, right? From what I hear WoW loses players inbetween expansion releases but each expansion brings back the massive playerbase.

Legit asking cause I've only ever played ESO. I can't relate to any of this stuff.

WoW is like you have 20k skills on your screen and then you press one and it is on cooldown for 2 years or so, but that is just fine since screen explodes anyway and you get to channel another 12 second skill on another enemy that could kill you only if you were naked and without keyboard. But at least it has non broken lore and you get to see a lot of planets and pandas are fluffy.

just kidding

I'm sorry.. did you just say.. WoW has non broken lore? can I have what you are having, becasue I don't think you can say that sober and with full seriousness. dude.. they have rewritten and retconed their own lore multiple times. up to an including introducing multiple contradictions, flip flopping, for no good reason, characters, dropped storylines and that's just in game stuff. you start going into expanded universe and holy hell. even with the whole parallel history thing they came up with for Warlords of Draenor - its STILL broken

at least Elder scrolls have a built in explanation for inconsistencies early on, not tacked on later (dragon break) and last I checked ZOS is still trying to stick to the rest of the lore for the most part

oh and you get 3 planets with WoW. you get 2 planes of existence with ESO (nirn and oblivion). I guess WoW wins?... by 1.

oh wait.. I see the spoiler now. whew, was worried there for a second.

Pro tip - read spoiler.

read my last sentence :P i did. just.. well.. after expressing my horror :P (and I actualy don't mind pandas even if they started out as april first joke)

d0e1ow

That ESO has such a rigid meta hidden behind "choice" (totally an illusion) and that you are "allowed to make mistakes" as you put it is the worst aspect of this game. WoW has much better class identity than this game does.

In WoW, when you make a rogue, you feel like a rogue. A hunter feels like a hunter. A death knight feels like a death knight. In ESO, you have two classes: magicka and stamina. If you try to make a "rogue" in ESO it amounts to you just sticking the same bow bar buffs on your backslot as literally every other stam class, and some dual wield skills. Stam Warden meta build uses a whopping TWO class skills.

This is pure trash and is not in the spirit of the Elder Scrolls franchise at all. It's a total departure in fact.

WoW has a pre-designed class, but you know what? I prefer it every time, because at least I can pick an archetype I like and have it actually be viable rather than this pathetic excuse of an "assassin" I have here who just feels like a dual wield user who occasionally casts some boring buff spell on herself before using Flawless Dawnbreaker, Re-arming Trap, Poison Injection, blah blah blah like every other class out there who isn't magicka. I hear magicka is just as monotonous though.

Another drawback to being "allowed to make mistakes" is that you can actually pick a "wrong" race in this game. That is ridiculous, and once again, not in the spirit of Elder Scrolls. The racials that exist in the single player titles are not going to "gimp" you. They may provide you with specific tactical advantages (Imperial's Voice of the Emperor is quite strong) but you aren't going to "break" your build or be at a big loss for what you pick.

In ESO people will actually KICK YOU FROM GROUPS over your racial choice. Trash. So you are forced, by peer pressure of this game's toxic community, to stare at a race you don't even want to be while you play an MMO. That's torturous.

Wow, so happy I am allowed to "make mistakes" and that we aren't a carebear game like WoW where racial differences are mostly just tactical (shadowmeld, will, gift, stoneform, etc) and people can play the race they enjoy. So happy.

lol

This game could take a lot of lessons from WoW. There is a reason WoW is number 1 and this game... well... isn't. And no, I don't play WoW anymore, so don't start up with accusing me of being an apologist. I just think OP is delusional that he thinks being allowed to "make mistakes" is enjoyable or fun for probably 90% of the game's community, especially because the way you realize you made a mistake is via the community berating you and wasting your time.

Olupajmibanan

Skander wrote: »

Sadly, that's also its weaknesses. At least for pvp

Yes, I always tend to compare WoW and ESO. ESO is so much better in every aspect except PvP.

Open world as only PvP mode is simply bad design and lacks competition to keep players playing. I am aware that we have instanced PvP in form of BGs, but seriously, who plays that? BGs are so damn badly implemented so there is no reason to leave Cyrodiil. By deciding between BGs and Cyrodiil, you must choose the lesser evil.

I usually play ESO and when I feel need for some PvP action, I go for a match or two in League of Legends.

srfrogg23

d0e1ow wrote: »

That ESO has such a rigid meta hidden behind "choice" (totally an illusion) and that you are "allowed to make mistakes" as you put it is the worst aspect of this game. WoW has much better class identity than this game does.

In WoW, when you make a rogue, you feel like a rogue. A hunter feels like a hunter. A death knight feels like a death knight. In ESO, you have two classes: magicka and stamina. If you try to make a "rogue" in ESO it amounts to you just sticking the same bow bar buffs on your backslot as literally every other stam class, and some dual wield skills. Stam Warden meta build uses a whopping TWO class skills.

This is pure trash and is not in the spirit of the Elder Scrolls franchise at all. It's a total departure in fact.

WoW has a pre-designed class, but you know what? I prefer it every time, because at least I can pick an archetype I like and have it actually be viable rather than this pathetic excuse of an "assassin" I have here who just feels like a dual wield user who occasionally casts some boring buff spell on herself before using Flawless Dawnbreaker, Re-arming Trap, Poison Injection, blah blah blah like every other class out there who isn't magicka. I hear magicka is just as monotonous though.

Another drawback to being "allowed to make mistakes" is that you can actually pick a "wrong" race in this game. That is ridiculous, and once again, not in the spirit of Elder Scrolls. The racials that exist in the single player titles are not going to "gimp" you. They may provide you with specific tactical advantages (Imperial's Voice of the Emperor is quite strong) but you aren't going to "break" your build or be at a big loss for what you pick.

In ESO people will actually KICK YOU FROM GROUPS over your racial choice. Trash. So you are forced, by peer pressure of this game's toxic community, to stare at a race you don't even want to be while you play an MMO. That's torturous.

Wow, so happy I am allowed to "make mistakes" and that we aren't a carebear game like WoW where racial differences are mostly just tactical (shadowmeld, will, gift, stoneform, etc) and people can play the race they enjoy. So happy.

lol

This game could take a lot of lessons from WoW. There is a reason WoW is number 1 and this game... well... isn't. And no, I don't play WoW anymore, so don't start up with accusing me of being an apologist. I just think OP is delusional that he thinks being allowed to "make mistakes" is enjoyable or fun for probably 90% of the game's community, especially because the way you realize you made a mistake is via the community berating you and wasting your time.

Heh, yes, I guess if you allow the forums to dictate your entire experience with ESO...

When I'm actually playing, I don't ever see any of what you're talking about, except in isolated cases of groups taking on the top end content trying to push their way up the leaderboards. The rest of the players seem pretty relaxed though.

d0e1ow

srfrogg23 wrote: »

d0e1ow wrote: »

That ESO has such a rigid meta hidden behind "choice" (totally an illusion) and that you are "allowed to make mistakes" as you put it is the worst aspect of this game. WoW has much better class identity than this game does.

In WoW, when you make a rogue, you feel like a rogue. A hunter feels like a hunter. A death knight feels like a death knight. In ESO, you have two classes: magicka and stamina. If you try to make a "rogue" in ESO it amounts to you just sticking the same bow bar buffs on your backslot as literally every other stam class, and some dual wield skills. Stam Warden meta build uses a whopping TWO class skills.

This is pure trash and is not in the spirit of the Elder Scrolls franchise at all. It's a total departure in fact.

WoW has a pre-designed class, but you know what? I prefer it every time, because at least I can pick an archetype I like and have it actually be viable rather than this pathetic excuse of an "assassin" I have here who just feels like a dual wield user who occasionally casts some boring buff spell on herself before using Flawless Dawnbreaker, Re-arming Trap, Poison Injection, blah blah blah like every other class out there who isn't magicka. I hear magicka is just as monotonous though.

Another drawback to being "allowed to make mistakes" is that you can actually pick a "wrong" race in this game. That is ridiculous, and once again, not in the spirit of Elder Scrolls. The racials that exist in the single player titles are not going to "gimp" you. They may provide you with specific tactical advantages (Imperial's Voice of the Emperor is quite strong) but you aren't going to "break" your build or be at a big loss for what you pick.

In ESO people will actually KICK YOU FROM GROUPS over your racial choice. Trash. So you are forced, by peer pressure of this game's toxic community, to stare at a race you don't even want to be while you play an MMO. That's torturous.

Wow, so happy I am allowed to "make mistakes" and that we aren't a carebear game like WoW where racial differences are mostly just tactical (shadowmeld, will, gift, stoneform, etc) and people can play the race they enjoy. So happy.

lol

This game could take a lot of lessons from WoW. There is a reason WoW is number 1 and this game... well... isn't. And no, I don't play WoW anymore, so don't start up with accusing me of being an apologist. I just think OP is delusional that he thinks being allowed to "make mistakes" is enjoyable or fun for probably 90% of the game's community, especially because the way you realize you made a mistake is via the community berating you and wasting your time.

Heh, yes, I guess if you allow the forums to dictate your entire experience with ESO...

When I'm actually playing, I don't ever see any of what you're talking about, except in isolated cases of groups taking on the top end content trying to push their way up the leaderboards. The rest of the players seem pretty relaxed though.

You are correct in that this kind of mentality I am complaining about really only applies to leaderboard and vet trial gameplay, but the problem is mid-tier players, so let's say your average player who does some vet dungeons, some normal trials, some Cyrodiil, take it as a gospel and wield it like a club against others. They use it to compensate for their insecurity. ZOS also balances around the meta and seems to encourage this kind of boring meta-game. Blizzard actively balanced against OP racials until finally they just said, "Ok, we're totally re-doing them so they aren't so powerful anymore." ZOS seems to delight in "All Redguards must be Stamina" "All Bretons must be Magicka" type of design. Instead of going back under the hood to fix some of the problems that are causing Stamina and Magicka builds to be so homogenous and boring it seems like they just double down.

The solution of course is to find that sweet guild full of wonderful people who all understand that this is just a game and following Alcast like he is some kind of Tiber Septim figure isn't really necessary unless you are a progression guild. That takes a stroke of luck and a job search-esque effort that I haven't mustered the will to do yet, probably because it's something I always despised doing in WoW. I know rationally that I need to get around to doing it, but I busy myself with questing/RP instead. If I can say anything nice about ESO it's that its world design is great for an MMO, and totally blows WoW out of the water in that regard.

srfrogg23

d0e1ow wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

d0e1ow wrote: »

That ESO has such a rigid meta hidden behind "choice" (totally an illusion) and that you are "allowed to make mistakes" as you put it is the worst aspect of this game. WoW has much better class identity than this game does.

In WoW, when you make a rogue, you feel like a rogue. A hunter feels like a hunter. A death knight feels like a death knight. In ESO, you have two classes: magicka and stamina. If you try to make a "rogue" in ESO it amounts to you just sticking the same bow bar buffs on your backslot as literally every other stam class, and some dual wield skills. Stam Warden meta build uses a whopping TWO class skills.

This is pure trash and is not in the spirit of the Elder Scrolls franchise at all. It's a total departure in fact.

WoW has a pre-designed class, but you know what? I prefer it every time, because at least I can pick an archetype I like and have it actually be viable rather than this pathetic excuse of an "assassin" I have here who just feels like a dual wield user who occasionally casts some boring buff spell on herself before using Flawless Dawnbreaker, Re-arming Trap, Poison Injection, blah blah blah like every other class out there who isn't magicka. I hear magicka is just as monotonous though.

Another drawback to being "allowed to make mistakes" is that you can actually pick a "wrong" race in this game. That is ridiculous, and once again, not in the spirit of Elder Scrolls. The racials that exist in the single player titles are not going to "gimp" you. They may provide you with specific tactical advantages (Imperial's Voice of the Emperor is quite strong) but you aren't going to "break" your build or be at a big loss for what you pick.

In ESO people will actually KICK YOU FROM GROUPS over your racial choice. Trash. So you are forced, by peer pressure of this game's toxic community, to stare at a race you don't even want to be while you play an MMO. That's torturous.

Wow, so happy I am allowed to "make mistakes" and that we aren't a carebear game like WoW where racial differences are mostly just tactical (shadowmeld, will, gift, stoneform, etc) and people can play the race they enjoy. So happy.

lol

This game could take a lot of lessons from WoW. There is a reason WoW is number 1 and this game... well... isn't. And no, I don't play WoW anymore, so don't start up with accusing me of being an apologist. I just think OP is delusional that he thinks being allowed to "make mistakes" is enjoyable or fun for probably 90% of the game's community, especially because the way you realize you made a mistake is via the community berating you and wasting your time.

Heh, yes, I guess if you allow the forums to dictate your entire experience with ESO...

When I'm actually playing, I don't ever see any of what you're talking about, except in isolated cases of groups taking on the top end content trying to push their way up the leaderboards. The rest of the players seem pretty relaxed though.

You are correct in that this kind of mentality I am complaining about really only applies to leaderboard and vet trial gameplay, but the problem is mid-tier players, so let's say your average player who does some vet dungeons, some normal trials, some Cyrodiil, take it as a gospel and wield it like a club against others. They use it to compensate for their insecurity. ZOS also balances around the meta and seems to encourage this kind of boring meta-game. Blizzard actively balanced against OP racials until finally they just said, "Ok, we're totally re-doing them so they aren't so powerful anymore." ZOS seems to delight in "All Redguards must be Stamina" "All Bretons must be Magicka" type of design. Instead of going back under the hood to fix some of the problems that are causing Stamina and Magicka builds to be so homogenous and boring it seems like they just double down.

The solution of course is to find that sweet guild full of wonderful people who all understand that this is just a game and following Alcast like he is some kind of Tiber Septim figure isn't really necessary unless you are a progression guild. That takes a stroke of luck and a job search-esque effort that I haven't mustered the will to do yet, probably because it's something I always despised doing in WoW. I know rationally that I need to get around to doing it, but I busy myself with questing/RP instead. If I can say anything nice about ESO it's that its world design is great for an MMO, and totally blows WoW out of the water in that regard.

Elitism isn't unique to ESO. I don't know when the last time was that you played WoW, but even with all the "streamlining", people still act like jerks. They just latch on to different things, like damage meters and clear times.

And, flying is the big one right now...

That's just par for the course when dealing with other human beings in an online video game. Right now, there is a massive debate in WoW about flying (a mechanic that's been in the game for over 10years). A lot of people like it and want Blizzard to quit trying to phase it out. Others say it's "OP" and want it removed because it makes people "lazy" and gives them an advantage.

The toxicity there is pretty mind blowing, and it's all centered around the least competitive component of the game, the entry level open-world end game content, that people insist on attaching competitive connotations to. Why? Because "human beings".

Elsonso

raphael.vestab16_ESO wrote: »

lel, at least in wow, i know why i paid 15 buck per month. Every things is on the game, any pet, any cosmetic things.

In Eso, u want somethings who look cool? Then Buy it, u don't have any choice. Even the "good" skin are from crown store exclusive (look at the HotR skin and the Crown store one). U want a mount that is different from a basic grey/black horse? NO, NO NO and NO, You'll need to BUY it. same with goold loonking pet, costume,etc.....

At least in wow, i not only paid for crafting bag and that's all. I will have loved so much that there is never Crown store things. I would paid my 12$ subscription with pleasure if ALL the Funny cosmectic was not on this Crown store bs.

TDLR;
In wow, u pay ur subscription FOR ALL THE GAME (Every cosmetic, mount, pet, ..........)
In ESO : only for the craft bag and dlc ; U want a cosmetic who look good or who is "pretty"? Nahahnaah U NEED TU BUY IT ! Even if u aldready have a subscription fee. ....

This is a good point. The value of ESO Plus is diluted, compared to WoW. Between Crown Crates and Limited Time Offers, and the ongoing use of these marketing tactics, ESO Plus is not as compelling as it used to be.

d0e1ow

srfrogg23 wrote: »

d0e1ow wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

d0e1ow wrote: »

That ESO has such a rigid meta hidden behind "choice" (totally an illusion) and that you are "allowed to make mistakes" as you put it is the worst aspect of this game. WoW has much better class identity than this game does.

In WoW, when you make a rogue, you feel like a rogue. A hunter feels like a hunter. A death knight feels like a death knight. In ESO, you have two classes: magicka and stamina. If you try to make a "rogue" in ESO it amounts to you just sticking the same bow bar buffs on your backslot as literally every other stam class, and some dual wield skills. Stam Warden meta build uses a whopping TWO class skills.

This is pure trash and is not in the spirit of the Elder Scrolls franchise at all. It's a total departure in fact.

WoW has a pre-designed class, but you know what? I prefer it every time, because at least I can pick an archetype I like and have it actually be viable rather than this pathetic excuse of an "assassin" I have here who just feels like a dual wield user who occasionally casts some boring buff spell on herself before using Flawless Dawnbreaker, Re-arming Trap, Poison Injection, blah blah blah like every other class out there who isn't magicka. I hear magicka is just as monotonous though.

Another drawback to being "allowed to make mistakes" is that you can actually pick a "wrong" race in this game. That is ridiculous, and once again, not in the spirit of Elder Scrolls. The racials that exist in the single player titles are not going to "gimp" you. They may provide you with specific tactical advantages (Imperial's Voice of the Emperor is quite strong) but you aren't going to "break" your build or be at a big loss for what you pick.

In ESO people will actually KICK YOU FROM GROUPS over your racial choice. Trash. So you are forced, by peer pressure of this game's toxic community, to stare at a race you don't even want to be while you play an MMO. That's torturous.

Wow, so happy I am allowed to "make mistakes" and that we aren't a carebear game like WoW where racial differences are mostly just tactical (shadowmeld, will, gift, stoneform, etc) and people can play the race they enjoy. So happy.

lol

This game could take a lot of lessons from WoW. There is a reason WoW is number 1 and this game... well... isn't. And no, I don't play WoW anymore, so don't start up with accusing me of being an apologist. I just think OP is delusional that he thinks being allowed to "make mistakes" is enjoyable or fun for probably 90% of the game's community, especially because the way you realize you made a mistake is via the community berating you and wasting your time.

Heh, yes, I guess if you allow the forums to dictate your entire experience with ESO...

When I'm actually playing, I don't ever see any of what you're talking about, except in isolated cases of groups taking on the top end content trying to push their way up the leaderboards. The rest of the players seem pretty relaxed though.

You are correct in that this kind of mentality I am complaining about really only applies to leaderboard and vet trial gameplay, but the problem is mid-tier players, so let's say your average player who does some vet dungeons, some normal trials, some Cyrodiil, take it as a gospel and wield it like a club against others. They use it to compensate for their insecurity. ZOS also balances around the meta and seems to encourage this kind of boring meta-game. Blizzard actively balanced against OP racials until finally they just said, "Ok, we're totally re-doing them so they aren't so powerful anymore." ZOS seems to delight in "All Redguards must be Stamina" "All Bretons must be Magicka" type of design. Instead of going back under the hood to fix some of the problems that are causing Stamina and Magicka builds to be so homogenous and boring it seems like they just double down.

The solution of course is to find that sweet guild full of wonderful people who all understand that this is just a game and following Alcast like he is some kind of Tiber Septim figure isn't really necessary unless you are a progression guild. That takes a stroke of luck and a job search-esque effort that I haven't mustered the will to do yet, probably because it's something I always despised doing in WoW. I know rationally that I need to get around to doing it, but I busy myself with questing/RP instead. If I can say anything nice about ESO it's that its world design is great for an MMO, and totally blows WoW out of the water in that regard.

Elitism isn't unique to ESO. I don't know when the last time was that you played WoW, but even with all the "streamlining", people still act like jerks. They just latch on to different things, like damage meters and clear times.

And, flying is the big one right now...

That's just par for the course when dealing with other human beings in an online video game. Right now, there is a massive debate in WoW about flying (a mechanic that's been in the game for over 10years). A lot of people like it and want Blizzard to quit trying to phase it out. Others say it's "OP" and want it removed because it makes people "lazy" and gives them an advantage.

The toxicity there is pretty mind blowing, and it's all centered around the least competitive component of the game, the entry level open-world end game content, that people insist on attaching competitive connotations to. Why? Because "human beings".

Blizzard isn't trying to phase flying out though are they? They are just being more selective in where they want you to be able to fly and where they would not want you to be able to fly, while gating its unlocking behind meta-achievements that can be earned completely solo.

I think a game's culture will reflect the developers choices to some degree. Design a game that encourages a hardcore meta, expect people to be toxic when others don't conform whether out of ignorance or rebellion. It's about weighing what is good for the game versus what isn't. Sometimes that's a hard choice to make. The flying debacle in WoW is an example of this. My perception is that the way ESO's classes are designed, and the way all of the group content seems to reward a guns blazing, full DPS to the max build is actually not good for the game as it makes encounters one-note and results in the monotonous builds we see today. That's my opinion. ZOS seems to disagree with me. I can only speculate on their reasons so I won't. At least they manage to make better group dungeons than Guild Wars 2. That's something at least. Cripes.

kylewwefan

I’ve watched my son play WoW. It is horrible. There’s far better looking games you can play on your phone.

I got it for him after seeing these epic trailers. The game is nothing like that. Actually he said the same thing about eso.

srfrogg23

d0e1ow wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

d0e1ow wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

d0e1ow wrote: »

That ESO has such a rigid meta hidden behind "choice" (totally an illusion) and that you are "allowed to make mistakes" as you put it is the worst aspect of this game. WoW has much better class identity than this game does.

In WoW, when you make a rogue, you feel like a rogue. A hunter feels like a hunter. A death knight feels like a death knight. In ESO, you have two classes: magicka and stamina. If you try to make a "rogue" in ESO it amounts to you just sticking the same bow bar buffs on your backslot as literally every other stam class, and some dual wield skills. Stam Warden meta build uses a whopping TWO class skills.

This is pure trash and is not in the spirit of the Elder Scrolls franchise at all. It's a total departure in fact.

WoW has a pre-designed class, but you know what? I prefer it every time, because at least I can pick an archetype I like and have it actually be viable rather than this pathetic excuse of an "assassin" I have here who just feels like a dual wield user who occasionally casts some boring buff spell on herself before using Flawless Dawnbreaker, Re-arming Trap, Poison Injection, blah blah blah like every other class out there who isn't magicka. I hear magicka is just as monotonous though.

Another drawback to being "allowed to make mistakes" is that you can actually pick a "wrong" race in this game. That is ridiculous, and once again, not in the spirit of Elder Scrolls. The racials that exist in the single player titles are not going to "gimp" you. They may provide you with specific tactical advantages (Imperial's Voice of the Emperor is quite strong) but you aren't going to "break" your build or be at a big loss for what you pick.

In ESO people will actually KICK YOU FROM GROUPS over your racial choice. Trash. So you are forced, by peer pressure of this game's toxic community, to stare at a race you don't even want to be while you play an MMO. That's torturous.

Wow, so happy I am allowed to "make mistakes" and that we aren't a carebear game like WoW where racial differences are mostly just tactical (shadowmeld, will, gift, stoneform, etc) and people can play the race they enjoy. So happy.

lol

This game could take a lot of lessons from WoW. There is a reason WoW is number 1 and this game... well... isn't. And no, I don't play WoW anymore, so don't start up with accusing me of being an apologist. I just think OP is delusional that he thinks being allowed to "make mistakes" is enjoyable or fun for probably 90% of the game's community, especially because the way you realize you made a mistake is via the community berating you and wasting your time.

Heh, yes, I guess if you allow the forums to dictate your entire experience with ESO...

When I'm actually playing, I don't ever see any of what you're talking about, except in isolated cases of groups taking on the top end content trying to push their way up the leaderboards. The rest of the players seem pretty relaxed though.

You are correct in that this kind of mentality I am complaining about really only applies to leaderboard and vet trial gameplay, but the problem is mid-tier players, so let's say your average player who does some vet dungeons, some normal trials, some Cyrodiil, take it as a gospel and wield it like a club against others. They use it to compensate for their insecurity. ZOS also balances around the meta and seems to encourage this kind of boring meta-game. Blizzard actively balanced against OP racials until finally they just said, "Ok, we're totally re-doing them so they aren't so powerful anymore." ZOS seems to delight in "All Redguards must be Stamina" "All Bretons must be Magicka" type of design. Instead of going back under the hood to fix some of the problems that are causing Stamina and Magicka builds to be so homogenous and boring it seems like they just double down.

The solution of course is to find that sweet guild full of wonderful people who all understand that this is just a game and following Alcast like he is some kind of Tiber Septim figure isn't really necessary unless you are a progression guild. That takes a stroke of luck and a job search-esque effort that I haven't mustered the will to do yet, probably because it's something I always despised doing in WoW. I know rationally that I need to get around to doing it, but I busy myself with questing/RP instead. If I can say anything nice about ESO it's that its world design is great for an MMO, and totally blows WoW out of the water in that regard.

Elitism isn't unique to ESO. I don't know when the last time was that you played WoW, but even with all the "streamlining", people still act like jerks. They just latch on to different things, like damage meters and clear times.

And, flying is the big one right now...

That's just par for the course when dealing with other human beings in an online video game. Right now, there is a massive debate in WoW about flying (a mechanic that's been in the game for over 10years). A lot of people like it and want Blizzard to quit trying to phase it out. Others say it's "OP" and want it removed because it makes people "lazy" and gives them an advantage.

The toxicity there is pretty mind blowing, and it's all centered around the least competitive component of the game, the entry level open-world end game content, that people insist on attaching competitive connotations to. Why? Because "human beings".

Blizzard isn't trying to phase flying out though are they? They are just being more selective in where they want you to be able to fly and where they would not want you to be able to fly, while gating its unlocking behind meta-achievements that can be earned completely solo.

I think a game's culture will reflect the developers choices to some degree. Design a game that encourages a hardcore meta, expect people to be toxic when others don't conform whether out of ignorance or rebellion. It's about weighing what is good for the game versus what isn't. Sometimes that's a hard choice to make. The flying debacle in WoW is an example of this. My perception is that the way ESO's classes are designed, and the way all of the group content seems to reward a guns blazing, full DPS to the max build is actually not good for the game as it makes encounters one-note and results in the monotonous builds we see today. That's my opinion. ZOS seems to disagree with me. I can only speculate on their reasons so I won't. At least they manage to make better group dungeons than Guild Wars 2. That's something at least. Cripes.

Without going too deep into the flying in WoW, yes. Blizzard has been trying various things to get rid of it. Up to and including trying to "condition" their players to not want it any more (arbitrary time gates and tons of grinding to deter completion of the achievement)...which is a pretty disgusting approach, imo.

For the races in ESO, it's largely a matter of misunderstanding, I think. You can gain roughly 3%~5% dps (before CPs, less after) depending on your racial passives. I've heard of plenty of people tackling the top-end PvE content without having the "optimal" race/class combo. They are able to accomplish that because they optimize the rest of their build to the max and practice their rotations a lot.

The game doesn't seem balanced around that +/-~5% difference and the racial passives really are just there for flavor. The people who get wrapped around the axle about racial passives are missing the forest for the trees.

Stormahawk

Checking out WoW certainly made me appreciate certain aspects of ESO a whole lot more.

As OP said, for one thing, you can't freely explore in WoW without having to stop every 5 yards to fight mobs. It becomes cumbersome and repetitive very quickly, taking away from any sense of discovery you would get from exploring.

It also feels like WoW locks you into a very limited builds. Then there is the artifact weapon that is an incredible grind to max out (about two months). Anyone who does not have it maxed, such as a returning or new player, is at a huge disadvantage that basically forces them two wait two months to participate in a lot of content. That ultimately ended up turning me away from WoW when I came back. It made me appreciate the versatility of builds in ESO a lot more since it is not too difficult to switch between builds and fairly easy to catch up.

There are some things that WoW does well that I hope ESO implements. One is the calendar built into game that can be used by guilds to schedule trials/events, and ZOS could use for in-game events as well.

Vimora

When you look at WoW, you look into the future. Appreciate the golden age of ESO, while it lasts.

Cpt_Teemo

kylewwefan wrote: »

I’ve watched my son play WoW. It is horrible. There’s far better looking games you can play on your phone.

I got it for him after seeing these epic trailers. The game is nothing like that. Actually he said the same thing about eso.

WoW actually did have a graphic overhaul like 2 years ago but yeah its still cartoony some people like that

Motherball

d0e1ow wrote: »

That ESO has such a rigid meta hidden behind "choice" (totally an illusion) and that you are "allowed to make mistakes" as you put it is the worst aspect of this game. WoW has much better class identity than this game does.

In WoW, when you make a rogue, you feel like a rogue. A hunter feels like a hunter. A death knight feels like a death knight. In ESO, you have two classes: magicka and stamina. If you try to make a "rogue" in ESO it amounts to you just sticking the same bow bar buffs on your backslot as literally every other stam class, and some dual wield skills. Stam Warden meta build uses a whopping TWO class skills.

This is pure trash and is not in the spirit of the Elder Scrolls franchise at all. It's a total departure in fact.

WoW has a pre-designed class, but you know what? I prefer it every time, because at least I can pick an archetype I like and have it actually be viable rather than this pathetic excuse of an "assassin" I have here who just feels like a dual wield user who occasionally casts some boring buff spell on herself before using Flawless Dawnbreaker, Re-arming Trap, Poison Injection, blah blah blah like every other class out there who isn't magicka. I hear magicka is just as monotonous though.

Another drawback to being "allowed to make mistakes" is that you can actually pick a "wrong" race in this game. That is ridiculous, and once again, not in the spirit of Elder Scrolls. The racials that exist in the single player titles are not going to "gimp" you. They may provide you with specific tactical advantages (Imperial's Voice of the Emperor is quite strong) but you aren't going to "break" your build or be at a big loss for what you pick.

In ESO people will actually KICK YOU FROM GROUPS over your racial choice. Trash. So you are forced, by peer pressure of this game's toxic community, to stare at a race you don't even want to be while you play an MMO. That's torturous.

Wow, so happy I am allowed to "make mistakes" and that we aren't a carebear game like WoW where racial differences are mostly just tactical (shadowmeld, will, gift, stoneform, etc) and people can play the race they enjoy. So happy.

lol

This game could take a lot of lessons from WoW. There is a reason WoW is number 1 and this game... well... isn't. And no, I don't play WoW anymore, so don't start up with accusing me of being an apologist. I just think OP is delusional that he thinks being allowed to "make mistakes" is enjoyable or fun for probably 90% of the game's community, especially because the way you realize you made a mistake is via the community berating you and wasting your time.

I’ll take endless variety with the possibilty of making a mistake over picking one of 3 options every 15 levels. Meta only really pertains to the endgame, and in that respect WoW is way more rigid than ESO, in my opinion.

zaria

d0e1ow wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

d0e1ow wrote: »

That ESO has such a rigid meta hidden behind "choice" (totally an illusion) and that you are "allowed to make mistakes" as you put it is the worst aspect of this game. WoW has much better class identity than this game does.

In WoW, when you make a rogue, you feel like a rogue. A hunter feels like a hunter. A death knight feels like a death knight. In ESO, you have two classes: magicka and stamina. If you try to make a "rogue" in ESO it amounts to you just sticking the same bow bar buffs on your backslot as literally every other stam class, and some dual wield skills. Stam Warden meta build uses a whopping TWO class skills.

This is pure trash and is not in the spirit of the Elder Scrolls franchise at all. It's a total departure in fact.

WoW has a pre-designed class, but you know what? I prefer it every time, because at least I can pick an archetype I like and have it actually be viable rather than this pathetic excuse of an "assassin" I have here who just feels like a dual wield user who occasionally casts some boring buff spell on herself before using Flawless Dawnbreaker, Re-arming Trap, Poison Injection, blah blah blah like every other class out there who isn't magicka. I hear magicka is just as monotonous though.

Another drawback to being "allowed to make mistakes" is that you can actually pick a "wrong" race in this game. That is ridiculous, and once again, not in the spirit of Elder Scrolls. The racials that exist in the single player titles are not going to "gimp" you. They may provide you with specific tactical advantages (Imperial's Voice of the Emperor is quite strong) but you aren't going to "break" your build or be at a big loss for what you pick.

In ESO people will actually KICK YOU FROM GROUPS over your racial choice. Trash. So you are forced, by peer pressure of this game's toxic community, to stare at a race you don't even want to be while you play an MMO. That's torturous.

Wow, so happy I am allowed to "make mistakes" and that we aren't a carebear game like WoW where racial differences are mostly just tactical (shadowmeld, will, gift, stoneform, etc) and people can play the race they enjoy. So happy.

lol

This game could take a lot of lessons from WoW. There is a reason WoW is number 1 and this game... well... isn't. And no, I don't play WoW anymore, so don't start up with accusing me of being an apologist. I just think OP is delusional that he thinks being allowed to "make mistakes" is enjoyable or fun for probably 90% of the game's community, especially because the way you realize you made a mistake is via the community berating you and wasting your time.

Heh, yes, I guess if you allow the forums to dictate your entire experience with ESO...

When I'm actually playing, I don't ever see any of what you're talking about, except in isolated cases of groups taking on the top end content trying to push their way up the leaderboards. The rest of the players seem pretty relaxed though.

You are correct in that this kind of mentality I am complaining about really only applies to leaderboard and vet trial gameplay, but the problem is mid-tier players, so let's say your average player who does some vet dungeons, some normal trials, some Cyrodiil, take it as a gospel and wield it like a club against others. They use it to compensate for their insecurity. ZOS also balances around the meta and seems to encourage this kind of boring meta-game. Blizzard actively balanced against OP racials until finally they just said, "Ok, we're totally re-doing them so they aren't so powerful anymore." ZOS seems to delight in "All Redguards must be Stamina" "All Bretons must be Magicka" type of design. Instead of going back under the hood to fix some of the problems that are causing Stamina and Magicka builds to be so homogenous and boring it seems like they just double down.

The solution of course is to find that sweet guild full of wonderful people who all understand that this is just a game and following Alcast like he is some kind of Tiber Septim figure isn't really necessary unless you are a progression guild. That takes a stroke of luck and a job search-esque effort that I haven't mustered the will to do yet, probably because it's something I always despised doing in WoW. I know rationally that I need to get around to doing it, but I busy myself with questing/RP instead. If I can say anything nice about ESO it's that its world design is great for an MMO, and totally blows WoW out of the water in that regard.

The same in WOW, remember copying setup from wowhead directly, more so it was not much build diversity as I can remember you could move some traits in an tree around a bit not much more, but I found the system confusing.
And as some other pointed out Acast make min/ max builds for trials, I prefer to spread cp around a bit for some extra protection extra damage on LA and HA rather than 1% more in bis cp.
And the cp system is totally confusing for causal / new players

Main difference between ESO and WOW in design is that WOW is pretty much vertical in progression, you do normal dungeons to get gear to do elite dungeons so you can do the hardest dungeons and then raids in multiple levels.
Gear is easier to get than in ESO as its fewer sets but this don't reduce grind as you grind currency to buy raid level gear in dungeons. ESO is pretty flat and not much of an gear progression, overland+ crafted is bis for magsorc for one.
Other classes have harder to get gear

Racial passives don't get me started, its an leftover from then we had soft caps. Game has other weird leftover like the level requirements for normal dungeons who matched difficulty at launch then dungeons had fixed levels.

Still none uses meta as an club outside of this forum, yes if you ask for advice in game and you can hope for an meta recommendation some other advises is plain weird

Linaleah

d0e1ow wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

d0e1ow wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

d0e1ow wrote: »

That ESO has such a rigid meta hidden behind "choice" (totally an illusion) and that you are "allowed to make mistakes" as you put it is the worst aspect of this game. WoW has much better class identity than this game does.

In WoW, when you make a rogue, you feel like a rogue. A hunter feels like a hunter. A death knight feels like a death knight. In ESO, you have two classes: magicka and stamina. If you try to make a "rogue" in ESO it amounts to you just sticking the same bow bar buffs on your backslot as literally every other stam class, and some dual wield skills. Stam Warden meta build uses a whopping TWO class skills.

This is pure trash and is not in the spirit of the Elder Scrolls franchise at all. It's a total departure in fact.

WoW has a pre-designed class, but you know what? I prefer it every time, because at least I can pick an archetype I like and have it actually be viable rather than this pathetic excuse of an "assassin" I have here who just feels like a dual wield user who occasionally casts some boring buff spell on herself before using Flawless Dawnbreaker, Re-arming Trap, Poison Injection, blah blah blah like every other class out there who isn't magicka. I hear magicka is just as monotonous though.

Another drawback to being "allowed to make mistakes" is that you can actually pick a "wrong" race in this game. That is ridiculous, and once again, not in the spirit of Elder Scrolls. The racials that exist in the single player titles are not going to "gimp" you. They may provide you with specific tactical advantages (Imperial's Voice of the Emperor is quite strong) but you aren't going to "break" your build or be at a big loss for what you pick.

In ESO people will actually KICK YOU FROM GROUPS over your racial choice. Trash. So you are forced, by peer pressure of this game's toxic community, to stare at a race you don't even want to be while you play an MMO. That's torturous.

Wow, so happy I am allowed to "make mistakes" and that we aren't a carebear game like WoW where racial differences are mostly just tactical (shadowmeld, will, gift, stoneform, etc) and people can play the race they enjoy. So happy.

lol

This game could take a lot of lessons from WoW. There is a reason WoW is number 1 and this game... well... isn't. And no, I don't play WoW anymore, so don't start up with accusing me of being an apologist. I just think OP is delusional that he thinks being allowed to "make mistakes" is enjoyable or fun for probably 90% of the game's community, especially because the way you realize you made a mistake is via the community berating you and wasting your time.

Heh, yes, I guess if you allow the forums to dictate your entire experience with ESO...

When I'm actually playing, I don't ever see any of what you're talking about, except in isolated cases of groups taking on the top end content trying to push their way up the leaderboards. The rest of the players seem pretty relaxed though.

You are correct in that this kind of mentality I am complaining about really only applies to leaderboard and vet trial gameplay, but the problem is mid-tier players, so let's say your average player who does some vet dungeons, some normal trials, some Cyrodiil, take it as a gospel and wield it like a club against others. They use it to compensate for their insecurity. ZOS also balances around the meta and seems to encourage this kind of boring meta-game. Blizzard actively balanced against OP racials until finally they just said, "Ok, we're totally re-doing them so they aren't so powerful anymore." ZOS seems to delight in "All Redguards must be Stamina" "All Bretons must be Magicka" type of design. Instead of going back under the hood to fix some of the problems that are causing Stamina and Magicka builds to be so homogenous and boring it seems like they just double down.

The solution of course is to find that sweet guild full of wonderful people who all understand that this is just a game and following Alcast like he is some kind of Tiber Septim figure isn't really necessary unless you are a progression guild. That takes a stroke of luck and a job search-esque effort that I haven't mustered the will to do yet, probably because it's something I always despised doing in WoW. I know rationally that I need to get around to doing it, but I busy myself with questing/RP instead. If I can say anything nice about ESO it's that its world design is great for an MMO, and totally blows WoW out of the water in that regard.

Elitism isn't unique to ESO. I don't know when the last time was that you played WoW, but even with all the "streamlining", people still act like jerks. They just latch on to different things, like damage meters and clear times.

And, flying is the big one right now...

That's just par for the course when dealing with other human beings in an online video game. Right now, there is a massive debate in WoW about flying (a mechanic that's been in the game for over 10years). A lot of people like it and want Blizzard to quit trying to phase it out. Others say it's "OP" and want it removed because it makes people "lazy" and gives them an advantage.

The toxicity there is pretty mind blowing, and it's all centered around the least competitive component of the game, the entry level open-world end game content, that people insist on attaching competitive connotations to. Why? Because "human beings".

Blizzard isn't trying to phase flying out though are they? They are just being more selective in where they want you to be able to fly and where they would not want you to be able to fly, while gating its unlocking behind meta-achievements that can be earned completely solo.

I think a game's culture will reflect the developers choices to some degree. Design a game that encourages a hardcore meta, expect people to be toxic when others don't conform whether out of ignorance or rebellion. It's about weighing what is good for the game versus what isn't. Sometimes that's a hard choice to make. The flying debacle in WoW is an example of this. My perception is that the way ESO's classes are designed, and the way all of the group content seems to reward a guns blazing, full DPS to the max build is actually not good for the game as it makes encounters one-note and results in the monotonous builds we see today. That's my opinion. ZOS seems to disagree with me. I can only speculate on their reasons so I won't. At least they manage to make better group dungeons than Guild Wars 2. That's something at least. Cripes.

no, they literally tried to phase out flying in WOD, but the outcry over it was so enormous, that they introduced the aforementioned meta achievements, that btw, cannot be completed solo in Legion, even if you are very very good, as they require not just dungeons and group quests, but also a raid. at least pugging in WoW is a lot more automated than in ESO, but it also makes for a much more hollow experience. meanwhile, they deliberately introduce convoluted terrains stuffed with random trash monsters that are only there to artificially pad the amount of time it takes to get anywhere, and disallow flying in newest content patch.. again.

and the problem with flying or lack of there off is not laziness or whatever else. its that world design in WoW is just... terrible and has been terrible since Cataclysm expansion.

as for META builds? you bet WoW has that, for all the "bring the player not the class" they keep claiming? bring the class not the player has been prevalent in WoW since launch and they have yet to truly fix it, so for all those class fantasy claims (that ended up pruning some of my favorite class abilities into oblivion), it doesn't have much flexibility at all.

and those all guns blazing dps builds in ESO? I'm honestly not sure how to stop that because in every single MMO I've ever tried, no matter how it was actualy designed - players did their outmost best to figure out what will give them the highest numbers and allow them to circumvent, or downright outdamage the mechanics. WoW has this issue. Neverwinter, last I played it - had that issue. Secret world, SWTOR, heck GW2 (big part of the reason why I didn't do much of group content there, outside of world events and world bosses was because I wanted to play a ranger with long bow and bear pet as my class fantasy.. except its lowest dps possible, build, so I've gotten more flack over it, than my bow bow build in ESO) players want big numbers. its also why dps always have and always will outnumber tanks and healers by a very large margin, far beyond the "you only need 1 tank and 1 healer for every 2 dps" explanation.

Juju_beans

Enslaved wrote: »

WoW is like you have 20k skills on your screen and then you press one and it is on cooldown for 2 years or so, but that is just fine since screen explodes anyway and you get to channel another 12 second skill on another enemy that could kill you only if you were naked and without keyboard. But at least it has non broken lore and you get to see a lot of planets and pandas are fluffy.

Not anymore. Their latest xpac (Legion) had a major pruning to skills and talents. They even took the pet away from hunter class and then put it back at the last minute.

And yes I read the spoiler. They made such drastic changes to all the classes that there were some I played since 2004 and wouldn't touch when Legion came out.

d0e1ow

Linaleah wrote: »

d0e1ow wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

d0e1ow wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

d0e1ow wrote: »

That ESO has such a rigid meta hidden behind "choice" (totally an illusion) and that you are "allowed to make mistakes" as you put it is the worst aspect of this game. WoW has much better class identity than this game does.

In WoW, when you make a rogue, you feel like a rogue. A hunter feels like a hunter. A death knight feels like a death knight. In ESO, you have two classes: magicka and stamina. If you try to make a "rogue" in ESO it amounts to you just sticking the same bow bar buffs on your backslot as literally every other stam class, and some dual wield skills. Stam Warden meta build uses a whopping TWO class skills.

This is pure trash and is not in the spirit of the Elder Scrolls franchise at all. It's a total departure in fact.

WoW has a pre-designed class, but you know what? I prefer it every time, because at least I can pick an archetype I like and have it actually be viable rather than this pathetic excuse of an "assassin" I have here who just feels like a dual wield user who occasionally casts some boring buff spell on herself before using Flawless Dawnbreaker, Re-arming Trap, Poison Injection, blah blah blah like every other class out there who isn't magicka. I hear magicka is just as monotonous though.

Another drawback to being "allowed to make mistakes" is that you can actually pick a "wrong" race in this game. That is ridiculous, and once again, not in the spirit of Elder Scrolls. The racials that exist in the single player titles are not going to "gimp" you. They may provide you with specific tactical advantages (Imperial's Voice of the Emperor is quite strong) but you aren't going to "break" your build or be at a big loss for what you pick.

In ESO people will actually KICK YOU FROM GROUPS over your racial choice. Trash. So you are forced, by peer pressure of this game's toxic community, to stare at a race you don't even want to be while you play an MMO. That's torturous.

Wow, so happy I am allowed to "make mistakes" and that we aren't a carebear game like WoW where racial differences are mostly just tactical (shadowmeld, will, gift, stoneform, etc) and people can play the race they enjoy. So happy.

lol

This game could take a lot of lessons from WoW. There is a reason WoW is number 1 and this game... well... isn't. And no, I don't play WoW anymore, so don't start up with accusing me of being an apologist. I just think OP is delusional that he thinks being allowed to "make mistakes" is enjoyable or fun for probably 90% of the game's community, especially because the way you realize you made a mistake is via the community berating you and wasting your time.

Heh, yes, I guess if you allow the forums to dictate your entire experience with ESO...

When I'm actually playing, I don't ever see any of what you're talking about, except in isolated cases of groups taking on the top end content trying to push their way up the leaderboards. The rest of the players seem pretty relaxed though.

You are correct in that this kind of mentality I am complaining about really only applies to leaderboard and vet trial gameplay, but the problem is mid-tier players, so let's say your average player who does some vet dungeons, some normal trials, some Cyrodiil, take it as a gospel and wield it like a club against others. They use it to compensate for their insecurity. ZOS also balances around the meta and seems to encourage this kind of boring meta-game. Blizzard actively balanced against OP racials until finally they just said, "Ok, we're totally re-doing them so they aren't so powerful anymore." ZOS seems to delight in "All Redguards must be Stamina" "All Bretons must be Magicka" type of design. Instead of going back under the hood to fix some of the problems that are causing Stamina and Magicka builds to be so homogenous and boring it seems like they just double down.

The solution of course is to find that sweet guild full of wonderful people who all understand that this is just a game and following Alcast like he is some kind of Tiber Septim figure isn't really necessary unless you are a progression guild. That takes a stroke of luck and a job search-esque effort that I haven't mustered the will to do yet, probably because it's something I always despised doing in WoW. I know rationally that I need to get around to doing it, but I busy myself with questing/RP instead. If I can say anything nice about ESO it's that its world design is great for an MMO, and totally blows WoW out of the water in that regard.

Elitism isn't unique to ESO. I don't know when the last time was that you played WoW, but even with all the "streamlining", people still act like jerks. They just latch on to different things, like damage meters and clear times.

And, flying is the big one right now...

That's just par for the course when dealing with other human beings in an online video game. Right now, there is a massive debate in WoW about flying (a mechanic that's been in the game for over 10years). A lot of people like it and want Blizzard to quit trying to phase it out. Others say it's "OP" and want it removed because it makes people "lazy" and gives them an advantage.

The toxicity there is pretty mind blowing, and it's all centered around the least competitive component of the game, the entry level open-world end game content, that people insist on attaching competitive connotations to. Why? Because "human beings".

Blizzard isn't trying to phase flying out though are they? They are just being more selective in where they want you to be able to fly and where they would not want you to be able to fly, while gating its unlocking behind meta-achievements that can be earned completely solo.

I think a game's culture will reflect the developers choices to some degree. Design a game that encourages a hardcore meta, expect people to be toxic when others don't conform whether out of ignorance or rebellion. It's about weighing what is good for the game versus what isn't. Sometimes that's a hard choice to make. The flying debacle in WoW is an example of this. My perception is that the way ESO's classes are designed, and the way all of the group content seems to reward a guns blazing, full DPS to the max build is actually not good for the game as it makes encounters one-note and results in the monotonous builds we see today. That's my opinion. ZOS seems to disagree with me. I can only speculate on their reasons so I won't. At least they manage to make better group dungeons than Guild Wars 2. That's something at least. Cripes.

no, they literally tried to phase out flying in WOD, but the outcry over it was so enormous, that they introduced the aforementioned meta achievements, that btw, cannot be completed solo in Legion, even if you are very very good, as they require not just dungeons and group quests, but also a raid. at least pugging in WoW is a lot more automated than in ESO, but it also makes for a much more hollow experience. meanwhile, they deliberately introduce convoluted terrains stuffed with random trash monsters that are only there to artificially pad the amount of time it takes to get anywhere, and disallow flying in newest content patch.. again.

and the problem with flying or lack of there off is not laziness or whatever else. its that world design in WoW is just... terrible and has been terrible since Cataclysm expansion.

as for META builds? you bet WoW has that, for all the "bring the player not the class" they keep claiming? bring the class not the player has been prevalent in WoW since launch and they have yet to truly fix it, so for all those class fantasy claims (that ended up pruning some of my favorite class abilities into oblivion), it doesn't have much flexibility at all.

and those all guns blazing dps builds in ESO? I'm honestly not sure how to stop that because in every single MMO I've ever tried, no matter how it was actualy designed - players did their outmost best to figure out what will give them the highest numbers and allow them to circumvent, or downright outdamage the mechanics. WoW has this issue. Neverwinter, last I played it - had that issue. Secret world, SWTOR, heck GW2 (big part of the reason why I didn't do much of group content there, outside of world events and world bosses was because I wanted to play a ranger with long bow and bear pet as my class fantasy.. except its lowest dps possible, build, so I've gotten more flack over it, than my bow bow build in ESO) players want big numbers. its also why dps always have and always will outnumber tanks and healers by a very large margin, far beyond the "you only need 1 tank and 1 healer for every 2 dps" explanation.

It's not that WoW doesn't have a meta. It's that WoW doesn't bait and switch people with some kind of impression that you have a lot of possibility for build diversity, but in the end you find out that actually you don't. WoW makes no bones about it: what you see is what you get. The "talent tree" is hardly something creative. You need to alter a talent here and there for niche situations or certain raid bosses, but it is simple and direct compared to the CP system and skill trees we have here.

Again, It's not that WoW does not have a metagame. It's that WoW's classes are all designed and curated by Blizzard, hence it accentuates class ARCHETYPES much better than ESO does. It cuts the crap and does away with the false notion of "choice" in favor of just providing you with some basic archetypes at the character creation screen. Rogue is the sneaky assassin, hunter is the bow user, warrior is the in your face heavy weapons guy, druid is the nature elf, etc, etc. All of these classes are viable at end game without sacrificing their archetype and fantasy. In ESO a new player might see the Warden and think "Oh, cool, a nature class!" but by end game they find themselves pigeonholed into the good old rearming trap caltrops rending slashes garbage that EVERY STAMINA CHARACTER HAS TO DO, thus totally destroying the impression of the class archetype.

As for the DPS thing, of course you want the most DPS, but the utility brought to a raid by classes like rogues and demon hunters and hunters and whatnot... that does not exist here. There is no equivalent of cleansing flames or void wells with Cloak of Shadows as a rogue that I can think of when it comes to DPS classes in this game. It's just full on DPS, no survivability, and you better hope your healer keeps you alive. Compare that to the mitigation and utility skills of a rogue in WoW, who gets to keep these things while also still being able to fulfill their DPS role to the max. If I even have the thought to put Blur on my bar in a trial I have just hurt my build. Trash.

Sorry, this is my view and I feel strongly about it. I dislike the class design of this game tremendously.

inthecoconut

I never got into WoW. I tried years ago around Wrath of the Lich King, but it just wasn't for me. I'm coming from Guild Wars 2, and while I think it is less buggy, more polished, and is a gorgeous looking MMO...I just found it boring. There was a time when I really enjoyed the living world/story but they changed their approach to story telling, and their new approach isn't bad, I just thought what they were doing before was new and exciting and nothing I had experienced in an MMO before. I could talk about that topic for ages, but to get to the bigger point, the combat, mechanics, and class building were very lack luster for me.

The classes were very cookie cutter, lacked variety, and fell into this repetitive skill rotation that made the combat very dull for me. And unfortunately, if the combat isn't fun, then it doesn't matter what extra fluff is in the game like Jumping Puzzles, Guild Halls, Masteries, Specializations, ect because it doesn't fix the fact that the core mechanic is boring. So far in ESO I am enjoying the freedom to slot my own abilities, manage resources, and am inspired knowing that my build wont necessarily be the same as someone else using the same weapons and class as me.

Also, the cash shop here is SO much milder than GW2. The lack of meaningful rewards, achievements, and cosmetics that can be acquired through playing the game also made GW2 boring for me. There is no incentive to explore, get achievements, revisit old content, ect. I just completed the Orsinium Hero achievements on ESO and was so thrilled to get 4 costumes, a hat, a few dyes, and a pet for just playing the game. I think the last 2-3 years, GW2 has come out with 2 armor sets and two new legendary weapons that could actually be unlocked via playing the game. Every other meaningful pet, weapon, glider, outfit, dye, ect has been a cash shop release. I was so disappointed to see the massive dump of cash shop items with the newest expansion as well. They have you fighting against a literal god, and you can get his themed weapons, but you don't get them from having an epic fight with him. No, instead you get them by typing in your billing information and hitting "buy now."

This is just my opinion. I'm not saying its right. I'm not factually stating that GW2 is a bad game. I just don't have fun playing it, and I hate that I don't. I want so badly to enjoy GW2. But I don't.

Chufu

I started my first MMO steps with wow and it was a great game with a lot of fun (24 man Raids, so funny). But with Pandaria the game turned to grinding dailies every day....it was boring.

I tried out SwToR, but the endgame was not very fun and a lot of Bugs in there.... and while thinking about leaving oh, I heard from a Friend of "Elder Scrolls Online" in 2013 and I was flashed.

An MMO in the Elder Scrolls World, Fantastic! So I was playing the Beta and play it until today. It's maybe not always perfect, but I love the people here, the atmosphere in the game, the Passion of the developers and the continued extensions of the game like DLC and chapters. Other games? No need, happy with ESO

Linaleah

d0e1ow wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

d0e1ow wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

d0e1ow wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

d0e1ow wrote: »

That ESO has such a rigid meta hidden behind "choice" (totally an illusion) and that you are "allowed to make mistakes" as you put it is the worst aspect of this game. WoW has much better class identity than this game does.

In WoW, when you make a rogue, you feel like a rogue. A hunter feels like a hunter. A death knight feels like a death knight. In ESO, you have two classes: magicka and stamina. If you try to make a "rogue" in ESO it amounts to you just sticking the same bow bar buffs on your backslot as literally every other stam class, and some dual wield skills. Stam Warden meta build uses a whopping TWO class skills.

This is pure trash and is not in the spirit of the Elder Scrolls franchise at all. It's a total departure in fact.

WoW has a pre-designed class, but you know what? I prefer it every time, because at least I can pick an archetype I like and have it actually be viable rather than this pathetic excuse of an "assassin" I have here who just feels like a dual wield user who occasionally casts some boring buff spell on herself before using Flawless Dawnbreaker, Re-arming Trap, Poison Injection, blah blah blah like every other class out there who isn't magicka. I hear magicka is just as monotonous though.

Another drawback to being "allowed to make mistakes" is that you can actually pick a "wrong" race in this game. That is ridiculous, and once again, not in the spirit of Elder Scrolls. The racials that exist in the single player titles are not going to "gimp" you. They may provide you with specific tactical advantages (Imperial's Voice of the Emperor is quite strong) but you aren't going to "break" your build or be at a big loss for what you pick.

In ESO people will actually KICK YOU FROM GROUPS over your racial choice. Trash. So you are forced, by peer pressure of this game's toxic community, to stare at a race you don't even want to be while you play an MMO. That's torturous.

Wow, so happy I am allowed to "make mistakes" and that we aren't a carebear game like WoW where racial differences are mostly just tactical (shadowmeld, will, gift, stoneform, etc) and people can play the race they enjoy. So happy.

lol

This game could take a lot of lessons from WoW. There is a reason WoW is number 1 and this game... well... isn't. And no, I don't play WoW anymore, so don't start up with accusing me of being an apologist. I just think OP is delusional that he thinks being allowed to "make mistakes" is enjoyable or fun for probably 90% of the game's community, especially because the way you realize you made a mistake is via the community berating you and wasting your time.

Heh, yes, I guess if you allow the forums to dictate your entire experience with ESO...

When I'm actually playing, I don't ever see any of what you're talking about, except in isolated cases of groups taking on the top end content trying to push their way up the leaderboards. The rest of the players seem pretty relaxed though.

You are correct in that this kind of mentality I am complaining about really only applies to leaderboard and vet trial gameplay, but the problem is mid-tier players, so let's say your average player who does some vet dungeons, some normal trials, some Cyrodiil, take it as a gospel and wield it like a club against others. They use it to compensate for their insecurity. ZOS also balances around the meta and seems to encourage this kind of boring meta-game. Blizzard actively balanced against OP racials until finally they just said, "Ok, we're totally re-doing them so they aren't so powerful anymore." ZOS seems to delight in "All Redguards must be Stamina" "All Bretons must be Magicka" type of design. Instead of going back under the hood to fix some of the problems that are causing Stamina and Magicka builds to be so homogenous and boring it seems like they just double down.

The solution of course is to find that sweet guild full of wonderful people who all understand that this is just a game and following Alcast like he is some kind of Tiber Septim figure isn't really necessary unless you are a progression guild. That takes a stroke of luck and a job search-esque effort that I haven't mustered the will to do yet, probably because it's something I always despised doing in WoW. I know rationally that I need to get around to doing it, but I busy myself with questing/RP instead. If I can say anything nice about ESO it's that its world design is great for an MMO, and totally blows WoW out of the water in that regard.

Elitism isn't unique to ESO. I don't know when the last time was that you played WoW, but even with all the "streamlining", people still act like jerks. They just latch on to different things, like damage meters and clear times.

And, flying is the big one right now...

That's just par for the course when dealing with other human beings in an online video game. Right now, there is a massive debate in WoW about flying (a mechanic that's been in the game for over 10years). A lot of people like it and want Blizzard to quit trying to phase it out. Others say it's "OP" and want it removed because it makes people "lazy" and gives them an advantage.

The toxicity there is pretty mind blowing, and it's all centered around the least competitive component of the game, the entry level open-world end game content, that people insist on attaching competitive connotations to. Why? Because "human beings".

Blizzard isn't trying to phase flying out though are they? They are just being more selective in where they want you to be able to fly and where they would not want you to be able to fly, while gating its unlocking behind meta-achievements that can be earned completely solo.

I think a game's culture will reflect the developers choices to some degree. Design a game that encourages a hardcore meta, expect people to be toxic when others don't conform whether out of ignorance or rebellion. It's about weighing what is good for the game versus what isn't. Sometimes that's a hard choice to make. The flying debacle in WoW is an example of this. My perception is that the way ESO's classes are designed, and the way all of the group content seems to reward a guns blazing, full DPS to the max build is actually not good for the game as it makes encounters one-note and results in the monotonous builds we see today. That's my opinion. ZOS seems to disagree with me. I can only speculate on their reasons so I won't. At least they manage to make better group dungeons than Guild Wars 2. That's something at least. Cripes.

no, they literally tried to phase out flying in WOD, but the outcry over it was so enormous, that they introduced the aforementioned meta achievements, that btw, cannot be completed solo in Legion, even if you are very very good, as they require not just dungeons and group quests, but also a raid. at least pugging in WoW is a lot more automated than in ESO, but it also makes for a much more hollow experience. meanwhile, they deliberately introduce convoluted terrains stuffed with random trash monsters that are only there to artificially pad the amount of time it takes to get anywhere, and disallow flying in newest content patch.. again.

and the problem with flying or lack of there off is not laziness or whatever else. its that world design in WoW is just... terrible and has been terrible since Cataclysm expansion.

as for META builds? you bet WoW has that, for all the "bring the player not the class" they keep claiming? bring the class not the player has been prevalent in WoW since launch and they have yet to truly fix it, so for all those class fantasy claims (that ended up pruning some of my favorite class abilities into oblivion), it doesn't have much flexibility at all.

and those all guns blazing dps builds in ESO? I'm honestly not sure how to stop that because in every single MMO I've ever tried, no matter how it was actualy designed - players did their outmost best to figure out what will give them the highest numbers and allow them to circumvent, or downright outdamage the mechanics. WoW has this issue. Neverwinter, last I played it - had that issue. Secret world, SWTOR, heck GW2 (big part of the reason why I didn't do much of group content there, outside of world events and world bosses was because I wanted to play a ranger with long bow and bear pet as my class fantasy.. except its lowest dps possible, build, so I've gotten more flack over it, than my bow bow build in ESO) players want big numbers. its also why dps always have and always will outnumber tanks and healers by a very large margin, far beyond the "you only need 1 tank and 1 healer for every 2 dps" explanation.

It's not that WoW doesn't have a meta. It's that WoW doesn't bait and switch people with some kind of impression that you have a lot of possibility for build diversity, but in the end you find out that actually you don't. WoW makes no bones about it: what you see is what you get. The "talent tree" is hardly something creative. You need to alter a talent here and there for niche situations or certain raid bosses, but it is simple and direct compared to the CP system and skill trees we have here.

Again, It's not that WoW does not have a metagame. It's that WoW's classes are all designed and curated by Blizzard, hence it accentuates class ARCHETYPES much better than ESO does. It cuts the crap and does away with the false notion of "choice" in favor of just providing you with some basic archetypes at the character creation screen. Rogue is the sneaky assassin, hunter is the bow user, warrior is the in your face heavy weapons guy, druid is the nature elf, etc, etc. All of these classes are viable at end game without sacrificing their archetype and fantasy. In ESO a new player might see the Warden and think "Oh, cool, a nature class!" but by end game they find themselves pigeonholed into the good old rearming trap caltrops rending slashes garbage that EVERY STAMINA CHARACTER HAS TO DO, thus totally destroying the impression of the class archetype.

As for the DPS thing, of course you want the most DPS, but the utility brought to a raid by classes like rogues and demon hunters and hunters and whatnot... that does not exist here. There is no equivalent of cleansing flames or void wells with Cloak of Shadows as a rogue that I can think of when it comes to DPS classes in this game. It's just full on DPS, no survivability, and you better hope your healer keeps you alive. Compare that to the mitigation and utility skills of a rogue in WoW, who gets to keep these things while also still being able to fulfill their DPS role to the max. If I even have the thought to put Blur on my bar in a trial I have just hurt my build. Trash.

Sorry, this is my view and I feel strongly about it. I dislike the class design of this game tremendously.

I have to disagree on all counts. unless you are playing competitive veteran content? chasing rigid meta, contrary to what some people will tell you, is NOT necessary.

simple and direct =/= better. not to metnion, I don't know when you last played, but artifact weapons are WoW's version of Champion points... except.. they are per character, rather then per account.

and on that very same note - those archetypes you have mentioned? haven't really been a thing for some time. Blizzard pruned and changed and restricted to the point where my fave spec is not even playable anymore, as its now melee. and then they went and took my resto shamans core ability that has BEEN a core ability for almost a decade ....and hid it behind pvp. awesome!

and its funny to me that you speak of meta being rigid and yet completely disregard the reasons why certain class/builds are preferred over others in ESO meta. that reason? is class. specific. utility. sure there are equivalents here and there. more or less. that are not as good as class abilities. and if you think that rogue or whoever in WoW gets to keep a class ability while going into a raid? you must have never experienced being gently told to use a particular spec, or outright asked to to reroll on sit on a bench. and yes, this is STILL a thing, which is why progression raiders usualy main more then one character and with artifacts unlike cp being per character? that adds a LOT of grind... for the sake of rigid meta that masquerades as class fantasy.

I too feel very strongly about this and part of the reason I feel very strongly about it is because I actively played both games, I'm actualy logged into WoW right now (for all my dissatisfaction with Blizzards decisions lately, there are still enough aspects there that I like well enough to spend some of my gold on subscription tokens, just to be able to hop in and spend some time with characters I had for over a decade), so i have no rose tinted glasses on.

luen79rwb17_ESO

I really like ESO's balance between CS, sub and cosmetics distribution between content and CS.

coop500

Thread is a poopstorm of WOW and ESO fans arguing which is better, can we close it now?

srfrogg23

d0e1ow wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

d0e1ow wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

d0e1ow wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

d0e1ow wrote: »

That ESO has such a rigid meta hidden behind "choice" (totally an illusion) and that you are "allowed to make mistakes" as you put it is the worst aspect of this game. WoW has much better class identity than this game does.

In WoW, when you make a rogue, you feel like a rogue. A hunter feels like a hunter. A death knight feels like a death knight. In ESO, you have two classes: magicka and stamina. If you try to make a "rogue" in ESO it amounts to you just sticking the same bow bar buffs on your backslot as literally every other stam class, and some dual wield skills. Stam Warden meta build uses a whopping TWO class skills.

This is pure trash and is not in the spirit of the Elder Scrolls franchise at all. It's a total departure in fact.

WoW has a pre-designed class, but you know what? I prefer it every time, because at least I can pick an archetype I like and have it actually be viable rather than this pathetic excuse of an "assassin" I have here who just feels like a dual wield user who occasionally casts some boring buff spell on herself before using Flawless Dawnbreaker, Re-arming Trap, Poison Injection, blah blah blah like every other class out there who isn't magicka. I hear magicka is just as monotonous though.

Another drawback to being "allowed to make mistakes" is that you can actually pick a "wrong" race in this game. That is ridiculous, and once again, not in the spirit of Elder Scrolls. The racials that exist in the single player titles are not going to "gimp" you. They may provide you with specific tactical advantages (Imperial's Voice of the Emperor is quite strong) but you aren't going to "break" your build or be at a big loss for what you pick.

In ESO people will actually KICK YOU FROM GROUPS over your racial choice. Trash. So you are forced, by peer pressure of this game's toxic community, to stare at a race you don't even want to be while you play an MMO. That's torturous.

Wow, so happy I am allowed to "make mistakes" and that we aren't a carebear game like WoW where racial differences are mostly just tactical (shadowmeld, will, gift, stoneform, etc) and people can play the race they enjoy. So happy.

lol

This game could take a lot of lessons from WoW. There is a reason WoW is number 1 and this game... well... isn't. And no, I don't play WoW anymore, so don't start up with accusing me of being an apologist. I just think OP is delusional that he thinks being allowed to "make mistakes" is enjoyable or fun for probably 90% of the game's community, especially because the way you realize you made a mistake is via the community berating you and wasting your time.

Heh, yes, I guess if you allow the forums to dictate your entire experience with ESO...

When I'm actually playing, I don't ever see any of what you're talking about, except in isolated cases of groups taking on the top end content trying to push their way up the leaderboards. The rest of the players seem pretty relaxed though.

You are correct in that this kind of mentality I am complaining about really only applies to leaderboard and vet trial gameplay, but the problem is mid-tier players, so let's say your average player who does some vet dungeons, some normal trials, some Cyrodiil, take it as a gospel and wield it like a club against others. They use it to compensate for their insecurity. ZOS also balances around the meta and seems to encourage this kind of boring meta-game. Blizzard actively balanced against OP racials until finally they just said, "Ok, we're totally re-doing them so they aren't so powerful anymore." ZOS seems to delight in "All Redguards must be Stamina" "All Bretons must be Magicka" type of design. Instead of going back under the hood to fix some of the problems that are causing Stamina and Magicka builds to be so homogenous and boring it seems like they just double down.

The solution of course is to find that sweet guild full of wonderful people who all understand that this is just a game and following Alcast like he is some kind of Tiber Septim figure isn't really necessary unless you are a progression guild. That takes a stroke of luck and a job search-esque effort that I haven't mustered the will to do yet, probably because it's something I always despised doing in WoW. I know rationally that I need to get around to doing it, but I busy myself with questing/RP instead. If I can say anything nice about ESO it's that its world design is great for an MMO, and totally blows WoW out of the water in that regard.

Elitism isn't unique to ESO. I don't know when the last time was that you played WoW, but even with all the "streamlining", people still act like jerks. They just latch on to different things, like damage meters and clear times.

And, flying is the big one right now...

That's just par for the course when dealing with other human beings in an online video game. Right now, there is a massive debate in WoW about flying (a mechanic that's been in the game for over 10years). A lot of people like it and want Blizzard to quit trying to phase it out. Others say it's "OP" and want it removed because it makes people "lazy" and gives them an advantage.

The toxicity there is pretty mind blowing, and it's all centered around the least competitive component of the game, the entry level open-world end game content, that people insist on attaching competitive connotations to. Why? Because "human beings".

Blizzard isn't trying to phase flying out though are they? They are just being more selective in where they want you to be able to fly and where they would not want you to be able to fly, while gating its unlocking behind meta-achievements that can be earned completely solo.

I think a game's culture will reflect the developers choices to some degree. Design a game that encourages a hardcore meta, expect people to be toxic when others don't conform whether out of ignorance or rebellion. It's about weighing what is good for the game versus what isn't. Sometimes that's a hard choice to make. The flying debacle in WoW is an example of this. My perception is that the way ESO's classes are designed, and the way all of the group content seems to reward a guns blazing, full DPS to the max build is actually not good for the game as it makes encounters one-note and results in the monotonous builds we see today. That's my opinion. ZOS seems to disagree with me. I can only speculate on their reasons so I won't. At least they manage to make better group dungeons than Guild Wars 2. That's something at least. Cripes.

no, they literally tried to phase out flying in WOD, but the outcry over it was so enormous, that they introduced the aforementioned meta achievements, that btw, cannot be completed solo in Legion, even if you are very very good, as they require not just dungeons and group quests, but also a raid. at least pugging in WoW is a lot more automated than in ESO, but it also makes for a much more hollow experience. meanwhile, they deliberately introduce convoluted terrains stuffed with random trash monsters that are only there to artificially pad the amount of time it takes to get anywhere, and disallow flying in newest content patch.. again.

and the problem with flying or lack of there off is not laziness or whatever else. its that world design in WoW is just... terrible and has been terrible since Cataclysm expansion.

as for META builds? you bet WoW has that, for all the "bring the player not the class" they keep claiming? bring the class not the player has been prevalent in WoW since launch and they have yet to truly fix it, so for all those class fantasy claims (that ended up pruning some of my favorite class abilities into oblivion), it doesn't have much flexibility at all.

and those all guns blazing dps builds in ESO? I'm honestly not sure how to stop that because in every single MMO I've ever tried, no matter how it was actualy designed - players did their outmost best to figure out what will give them the highest numbers and allow them to circumvent, or downright outdamage the mechanics. WoW has this issue. Neverwinter, last I played it - had that issue. Secret world, SWTOR, heck GW2 (big part of the reason why I didn't do much of group content there, outside of world events and world bosses was because I wanted to play a ranger with long bow and bear pet as my class fantasy.. except its lowest dps possible, build, so I've gotten more flack over it, than my bow bow build in ESO) players want big numbers. its also why dps always have and always will outnumber tanks and healers by a very large margin, far beyond the "you only need 1 tank and 1 healer for every 2 dps" explanation.

It's not that WoW doesn't have a meta. It's that WoW doesn't bait and switch people with some kind of impression that you have a lot of possibility for build diversity, but in the end you find out that actually you don't. WoW makes no bones about it: what you see is what you get. The "talent tree" is hardly something creative. You need to alter a talent here and there for niche situations or certain raid bosses, but it is simple and direct compared to the CP system and skill trees we have here.

Again, It's not that WoW does not have a metagame. It's that WoW's classes are all designed and curated by Blizzard, hence it accentuates class ARCHETYPES much better than ESO does. It cuts the crap and does away with the false notion of "choice" in favor of just providing you with some basic archetypes at the character creation screen. Rogue is the sneaky assassin, hunter is the bow user, warrior is the in your face heavy weapons guy, druid is the nature elf, etc, etc. All of these classes are viable at end game without sacrificing their archetype and fantasy. In ESO a new player might see the Warden and think "Oh, cool, a nature class!" but by end game they find themselves pigeonholed into the good old rearming trap caltrops rending slashes garbage that EVERY STAMINA CHARACTER HAS TO DO, thus totally destroying the impression of the class archetype.

As for the DPS thing, of course you want the most DPS, but the utility brought to a raid by classes like rogues and demon hunters and hunters and whatnot... that does not exist here. There is no equivalent of cleansing flames or void wells with Cloak of Shadows as a rogue that I can think of when it comes to DPS classes in this game. It's just full on DPS, no survivability, and you better hope your healer keeps you alive. Compare that to the mitigation and utility skills of a rogue in WoW, who gets to keep these things while also still being able to fulfill their DPS role to the max. If I even have the thought to put Blur on my bar in a trial I have just hurt my build. Trash.

Sorry, this is my view and I feel strongly about it. I dislike the class design of this game tremendously.

I don't really think there was a "bait and switch" at all. There are a lot of active and passive abilities in the game, and sure, some of them are going to be a little redundant while others are going to be better for certain things over others.

There's a level of enjoyment to be had in tinkering with builds and strategies to tease out those details, too. It's fun to test new builds, figure out how to make different skill combinations work together and create guides. Just don't get too wrapped up in someone else's gospel of "what works the best!".

I don't think the game "requires" you to use the abilities that you keep mentioning, but if they work well, I see no reason for that to be a negative. I tend to look at character builds vs content difficulty as a pyramid. At lower difficulties, the variety of builds that work for the content will be more numerous. As you get towards the top, the amount of theory-crafting and strategy that goes into teasing out the minutiae of which builds out-perform others goes up. But, yes, the number of top performing builds will get smaller and smaller.

That doesn't mean there's "no choice". It just means you have to spend more time parsing out the details. That's where ESO shines over WoW. WoW removed trial and error from its gameplay, along with the ability to create new builds.

BloodWolfe

raphael.vestab16_ESO wrote: »

lel, at least in wow, i know why i paid 15 buck per month. Every things is on the game, any pet, any cosmetic things.

In Eso, u want somethings who look cool? Then Buy it, u don't have any choice. Even the "good" skin are from crown store exclusive (look at the HotR skin and the Crown store one). U want a mount that is different from a basic grey/black horse? NO, NO NO and NO, You'll need to BUY it. same with goold loonking pet, costume,etc.....

At least in wow, i not only paid for crafting bag and that's all. I will have loved so much that there is never Crown store things. I would paid my 12$ subscription with pleasure if ALL the Funny cosmectic was not on this Crown store bs.

TDLR;
In wow, u pay ur subscription FOR ALL THE GAME (Every cosmetic, mount, pet, ..........)
In ESO : only for the craft bag and dlc ; U want a cosmetic who look good or who is "pretty"? Nahahnaah U NEED TU BUY IT ! Even if u aldready have a subscription fee. ....

WoW has mounts, non-combat pets and 3 helmet transmogs (yes optional items) that are purchasable on their store page so they are forced subscription plus additional. ESO is optional subscription with optional items on the store. Not sure where you're trying to go with this but you've failed in trying to make a point.

I miss sub-only games because yes everyone was on the same playing field so to speak but I think ZOS has a good system overall (not perfect but far from the worst) compared to most B2P or F2P games with how few restrictions they have for free players.

I sub because I feel it's worth it and sometimes I buy some extra crowns if I really want something but I believe some crown shop items are very overpriced but I just don't buy those and enjoy the rest of the game since it is my favorite MMO.

Blanco wrote: »

Eh, you can't really play this game for free either.

Game is unplayable without the craft bag.

I mean you can play, but it's just trash. His comparison was actually pretty legit and one of the things I miss most about WoW, actually.

As for the craft bag comments, this game is absolutely playable without it and the point wasn't legit. In WoW you purchased bags to increase storage space that can fill up quickly for crafters as well (especially in the first few years before they really increased the stack sizes) and you can buy storage space with in-game gold here as well so point is moot.

Megabear

srfrogg23 wrote: »

My wife and I recently renewed our subscriptions to WoW and holy crap, WoW is not what it used to be. ESO, is what WoW used to be, these days.

I think it has a lot to do with the open world design and RPG customization of each game. ESO allows players the flexibility to create "bad builds", and that's great! There are even mechanics that require some additional conversation and trial and error to be fully understood. WoW has become so streamlined and so dumbed down, the game won't allow players to make mistakes anymore. I think something fundamental to RPG gameplay was lost from WoW because of that.

The open world content is also vastly different. ESO is not cluttered with pointless stat-bag trash mobs. I can actually poke around and explore without having to constantly fight something trivial. In WoW, on the other hand, it's like "move 5 feet, kill something, move 5 feet, kill something...". Exploring isn't fun in that game anymore. Blizzard employees occasionally pop into the forums and say "it's more dangerous that way", whenever someone mentions it. I disagree. It's just grindy and obnoxious.

I guess this thread is really just a minor plea to Zos to never, ever, ever follow Blizzard's example. Please, please, please don't dumb down your RPG mechanics based on utilitarian ideologies. Please do not replace depth and complexity with rapidly respawning trash mobs!

ZOS is definitely following the micro transaction models though.

vyndral13preub18_ESO

coop500 wrote: »

Thread is a poopstorm of WOW and ESO fans arguing which is better, can we close it now?

Tera like a mofo ***!!