Pet Sorc DPS Set Comparison (with Parse data)

dpencil1

@Artis
Yeah. The duration really only enters into the calculation of the individual skill dps and then the total dps. The main damage number that just multiplies the number of hits by the crit average isn't directly effected by the combat duration (except in that you'd get fewer hits with a shorter combat duration). If you want to see how individual skills compare between different setups, you can just look at the averages themselves, regardless of the duration. The number of hits is mainly there to properly weigh the skills against each other in terms of their contribution to total dps. So I guess it would be possible to convert the number of hits into a percentage (which would remain constant regardless of combat duration), but I don't imagine the difference in that approach being very noticable.

Tyrion87

dpencil1 wrote: »

@Blanco
The thing people like about Apprentice over Lover is that is always effective. It doesn't suddenly become useless because you're overpenetrating or your target is shielded. In a controlled environement, where you are responsible for most of your own penetration and your target will not be shielded, Lover will give more damage than any other mundus stone.

The Mage is a fine choice too. It doesn't give quite as much damage as Apprentice, but it is definitely the better choice if pets make up a large part of your damage, since they don't benefit from extra spell damage. It also provides more utility with larger shield size and more max resources.

Honestly, I think all three mundus stones are pretty well balanced against each other, so pick the one that fits your circumstances best.

I just don't understand one basic thing about this lover vs apprentice thing. And maybe here I will get some answers

Before HotR everybody was using sharpened weapons which gave you 5160 penetration. It was absolutely BiS, without a doubt. No one was talking anything about overpenetrating enemies or using other options instead of sharpened.

After HotR sharpened was nerfed down to 2752 penetration. And people say... don't use it because you can overpenetrate enemies. On the other hand lover got some love and now it gives 4196 penetration (7 gold divines pieces). It's still lower than the old (pre-patch) sharpened but people also say: don't use it because you can overpenetrate enemies in a coordinated group.

What has changed then? What am I missing? Why previously people were not overpenetrating with the old 5160 sharpened? Suddenly everybody has coordinated groups where penetration is not that great anymore because you can get it from other sources. There is just... no logic here for me.

Personally I use lover (7 gold divines) with infused staves in every group content with great results. I raid with coordinated groups but we just can't fully rely on infused crusher/alkosh/minor breach etc because their uptime is never 100%. Just like I said, it was never a problem before with 5160 sharpened - why then is it a problem now?

Sotomaior

Tyrion87 wrote: »

dpencil1 wrote: »

@Blanco
The thing people like about Apprentice over Lover is that is always effective. It doesn't suddenly become useless because you're overpenetrating or your target is shielded. In a controlled environement, where you are responsible for most of your own penetration and your target will not be shielded, Lover will give more damage than any other mundus stone.

The Mage is a fine choice too. It doesn't give quite as much damage as Apprentice, but it is definitely the better choice if pets make up a large part of your damage, since they don't benefit from extra spell damage. It also provides more utility with larger shield size and more max resources.

Honestly, I think all three mundus stones are pretty well balanced against each other, so pick the one that fits your circumstances best.

I just don't understand one basic thing about this lover vs apprentice thing. And maybe here I will get some answers

Before HotR everybody was using sharpened weapons which gave you 5160 penetration. It was absolutely BiS, without a doubt. No one was talking anything about overpenetrating enemies or using other options instead of sharpened.

After HotR sharpened was nerfed down to 2752 penetration. And people say... don't use it because you can overpenetrate enemies. On the other hand lover got some love and now it gives 4196 penetration (7 gold divines pieces). It's still lower than the old (pre-patch) sharpened but people also say: don't use it because you can overpenetrate enemies in a coordinated group.

What has changed then? What am I missing? Why previously people were not overpenetrating with the old 5160 sharpened? Suddenly everybody has coordinated groups where penetration is not that great anymore because you can get it from other sources. There is just... no logic here for me.

Personally I use lover (7 gold divines) with infused staves in every group content with great results. I raid with coordinated groups but we just can't fully rely on infused crusher/alkosh/minor breach etc because their uptime is never 100%. Just like I said, it was never a problem before with 5160 sharpened - why then is it a problem now?

Don't know maths behind ,but i think it's a matter of content and cp distribution for different circumstances.but others may explain better

Dasovaruilos

Tyrion87 wrote: »

dpencil1 wrote: »

@Blanco
The thing people like about Apprentice over Lover is that is always effective. It doesn't suddenly become useless because you're overpenetrating or your target is shielded. In a controlled environement, where you are responsible for most of your own penetration and your target will not be shielded, Lover will give more damage than any other mundus stone.

The Mage is a fine choice too. It doesn't give quite as much damage as Apprentice, but it is definitely the better choice if pets make up a large part of your damage, since they don't benefit from extra spell damage. It also provides more utility with larger shield size and more max resources.

Honestly, I think all three mundus stones are pretty well balanced against each other, so pick the one that fits your circumstances best.

I just don't understand one basic thing about this lover vs apprentice thing. And maybe here I will get some answers

Before HotR everybody was using sharpened weapons which gave you 5160 penetration. It was absolutely BiS, without a doubt. No one was talking anything about overpenetrating enemies or using other options instead of sharpened.

After HotR sharpened was nerfed down to 2752 penetration. And people say... don't use it because you can overpenetrate enemies. On the other hand lover got some love and now it gives 4196 penetration (7 gold divines pieces). It's still lower than the old (pre-patch) sharpened but people also say: don't use it because you can overpenetrate enemies in a coordinated group.

What has changed then? What am I missing? Why previously people were not overpenetrating with the old 5160 sharpened? Suddenly everybody has coordinated groups where penetration is not that great anymore because you can get it from other sources. There is just... no logic here for me.

Personally I use lover (7 gold divines) with infused staves in every group content with great results. I raid with coordinated groups but we just can't fully rely on infused crusher/alkosh/minor breach etc because their uptime is never 100%. Just like I said, it was never a problem before with 5160 sharpened - why then is it a problem now?

That is exactly what I'm thinking. The only thing that is "added" in pen from last patch is 400 more pen from Infused Crusher and a little bit more uptime and 10 more CP you can spend in the blue tree.

Where did all the rest of pen went?

We didn't get any new sources of pen, Alkosh uptime didn't magically increased to 100% every fight, 10 CP won't give you 5k pen from old Sharpened...

Something is not making sense.

Also, what about add pulls? Overcharges, Sun Eaters, Shamans, Reflections, Atronachs in vAA hard mode... Those things need to die FAST and without Alkosh / Crusher and DPS with Sharpened on them, aren't they going to take a lot longer to kill with 5k less pen for basically every DPS in the group?

Beardimus

Great questions re whats changed ^ I also have been wondering about that. Perhaps has we have more CP the extra points in spell erosion etc but its weird that people are slamming Pen when its been ALL about Pen for so long.

dpencil1

@Tyrion87
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/368454/spell-penetration-examined-a-pve-dps-perspective/p1

If you haven't read that thread yet, I would suggest you do.

The issue is about relative potency. Pre-HotR, Sharpened and Thief were so much more powerful than any other trait/mundus that there was no question what to take. Some people didn't put any points into penetration CP at all.

Now, the balance is much closer, which leaves room for making choices based on other factors than just "what is the strongest option by a mile?" Some people just don't like even the idea that they might be over-penetrating. They'd prefer to use CP to get their penetration to whatever level they feel is appropriate. And since penetration's potency diminishes the closer you get to the cap, while things like Spell/Weapon Damage remain constant, some people just like the idea of having a mundus that will always give them the same thing. Adjusting CP on the fly is easier than going and changing your mundus stone, after all.

But all that being said, it's certainly not a bad thing if you prefer to run Lover. We as a community need to break out of the "one true BiS" mentality. If you're thoughtful about your build, there are many viable options.

mikove

How are you able to do so much dmg? I run 5 julianos and 5 necro, and I'm barely getting 21k dps... CP 400

dpencil1

@mikove
You are not Light Attack weaving at all. You don't have max CP. You may be making mistakes in your rotation or going too slowly (hard to tell this without a video). You're using Witchmother's Brew instead of a Max Health/Max Magicka food. You are not using Elemental Drain to get Major Breach on your target. No idea what your CP allocation looks like, but it is probably not optimal.

mikove

dpencil1 wrote: »

@mikove
You are not Light Attack weaving at all. You don't have max CP. You may be making mistakes in your rotation or going too slowly (hard to tell this without a video). You're using Witchmother's Brew instead of a Max Health/Max Magicka food. You are not using Elemental Drain to get Major Breach on your target. No idea what your CP allocation looks like, but it is probably not optimal.

Actually I am using light attacks, they just are at the bottom of the list which can't be seen in the pic (i understand that light attacks should be at the top) CP is allocated like in alcast's sorc pet guide. What makes the max hp/max magicka food better over witchmother if i may ask?

dpencil1

@mikove
The only reason your light attacks would be at the bottom is if you did far too few of them. You should have almost as many light attacks as the duration in seconds of combat (minus whenever you are heavy attacking, which should only be once every rotation.) You should use Asayre's CP optimizer website so you can tailor your CP to how you are actually playing.
http://asayre.mygamesonline.org/HoTRoptimisation/CPOptimisation.html#

The blue max health/magicka food gives you more magicka, which means more damage, but at the loss of sustain (though you shouldn't really need the extra sustain anyway).

Also, if you don't have all golded out gear, that will also make a difference.

Camb0Sl1ce

I'm running your non pet setup best ive been able to achieve is 36k with it, which I'm okay with although I havnt been able to to do it again. Once in a while ill hit over 35k but mostly it hovers around 34, not really sure what I'm doing wrong I'm ruining the exact same setup all gold and same cp allocation. The only differences is I have 1 piece ilambris instead of grothdar which is basically the same thing and 2 of my large pieces are infused. I wouldn't think 2 more divines pieces would make that big of a difference. Also your original post non pet had 64% crit chance im only sitting at 57.2% without minor prophecy.

dpencil1

@Camb0Sl1ce
64% was my average crit chance on my Combat Metrics parse. This does include whatever Minor Prophesy uptime you'd get from casting Crystal Frags.

As to the variability of your parses, this is normal, especially on a non-pet build. It will be a little less so running IA since you'll be getting nearly 100% uptime on Minor Vulnerability, but Off Balance uptime will still be quite variable, as will the number of C-Frag procs you get. The Off Balance variability will be less in a trials setting.

Camb0Sl1ce

Okay thanks for the reply, being on console I have no way of knowing what my uptimes are unfortunately. The dummy is all we have, something else I've noticed is at least for me is my parses don't vary much whether I use an execute or not, it seems like as long as you don't swap bars during the last 5% you will get decent numbers. Could just be a dummy thing Idk.

dpencil1

@Camb0Sl1ce
Well, you should be using your execute from 20%, not 5%. It does provide a noticable dps boost, but being in console you can't track it. Usually, my parses will peak at around the 15 second mark with about 40-42k dps and then slowly drop to about 33-35k dps, where it will hold for the majority of the fight. The last 20% (using the execute), it will keep going up slowly, getting into the 36-38k range. Implosion also helps boost the last bit of combat as well, if it procs a few times.

Camb0Sl1ce

Thanks for your input, have to say you and asayre have really helped me understand the game a lot. This is actually my first time ive made a forum account even after playing since console launch and reading the forums regularly for years.

Morgul667

I have a questions for CP on pet sorc and dont know where to ask.

I have given the above build a try and reached 29k DPS (I know its low but I have high ping and just did a few rotations on it, been a while I didnt PVE).

My personal target is above 30k, self-buffed with high ping, which I think is fine for most content so Im getting there

Using the constellations add-on on my combat metrics report, it tells me that my current CP distribution brings me f = 1.77 and that it can be improved to 2.02 or something like that if I switch my spell erosion and thaumaturge points to Master-at-arm (the one that boosts light and heavy attacks)

I run back bar maelstrom nirn, main bar is julianos infused.

Whether I should listen to it ? I mean if I do that wont I lose the 10% damage passive from 75 thaumaturge?

If I force the thaumaturge value to 75 min it advises me to go up to 81 and reduce further other stats to put all in masters-at-arms. This could reach f=1.97

Also If I reach f=2 compared to 1.77 does it mean DPS should be increased roughly of 13%?

dpencil1

@Morgul667
It's not taking the loss of the Exploiter passive into account. It's assuming you'll have that much extra damage done no matter what, so no, you should not listen to it. You can set it to have a minimum number for Thau. Set that to 75 and then get your best numbers from there. You do NOT want to go without Exploiter.

Morgul667

dpencil1 wrote: »

@Morgul667
It's not taking the loss of the Exploiter passive into account. It's assuming you'll have that much extra damage done no matter what, so no, you should not listen to it. You can set it to have a minimum number for Thau. Set that to 75 and then get your best numbers from there. You do NOT want to go without Exploiter.

Thanks very much.

Then it advises me to go with 81 in thaumaturge and 40+ in Master at arms, at the cost of spell erosion while I use Infused + Nirn weapons. Seems weird but Ill give it a try.

Did you have similar simulation before ?

dpencil1

@Morgul667
Personally, I use Asayre's web-based calculator: http://asayre.mygamesonline.org/HoTRoptimisation/CPOptimisation.html#

I think it's more accurate. My optimal CP is usually: 37 Elfborn, 43 Ele Expert, 45 Spell Erosion, 75 Thau, 20 MaA

Morgul667

dpencil1 wrote: »

@Morgul667
Personally, I use Asayre's web-based calculator: http://asayre.mygamesonline.org/HoTRoptimisation/CPOptimisation.html#

I think it's more accurate. My optimal CP is usually: 37 Elfborn, 43 Ele Expert, 45 Spell Erosion, 75 Thau, 20 MaA

Thanks

Morgul667

@dpencil1

Sorry to bother you with further question :

- today I used health ravage poison IX which increased my DPS by about 1k which tells me I may not be using the best glyph on my infused staff
- what glyph should I use on my infused staff ? pet build ? Today I use weapon and spell damage , is fire better ?

dpencil1

The above question was answered via PM. Shock front bar, Fire back bar was the answer I gave. I have not tested with poisons though, as I try to limit my use of consumables in PvE as much as possible.