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Pet Sorc DPS Set Comparison (with Parse data)
dpencil1
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Objective:
Compare several set combinations on a Pet Sorc to see how they impact overall dps in a PvE environment.
Problem:
Parsing on a 3mil dummy can generate a number of corrupting factors that can skew results. Key problematic factors are:
1. Mismatch between actual crits and the build's crit chance
2. Variations in Concussed procs, leading to varying uptimes of Minor Vulnerability and Off-Balance
3. Other proc chance events like Implosion
Solution Premise:
One method to reduce the impact of these factors is to test on larger dummies. This is what Gilliamtherogue does. My solution was to recalculate new average damage numbers from a 3mil parse that would make all skills match their build's crit chance, and would equalize any variance in debuff uptime.
Solution Method:
So what do these dps numbers really mean?
The newly calculated dps numbers represent true average damage in a 100% debuff environment, and would proportionally hold true in lower % debuff environments as well. They help to show how the various factors such as max magicka, spell damage, and crit chance work together to boost pet and non-pet damage, and which combinations result in better overall dps.
Test Limitations:
Builds were optimized for target skeleton parsing solo. Changes to accommodate group play or different playstyles will effect dps in various ways, but those differences will be related to other factors, NOT the sets being used. For example, if all builds took the Apprentice stone, it would benefit the Non-Pet build more than the Pet build. This has nothing to do with the sets used, though, and only speaks to the differences between Mundus stones and the fact that pets don't benefit from increasing spell damage, which is not our topic of interest in this thread. So, to a cetrain extent, knowing the details of these builds is somewhat irrelevant. The important info is the comparison between the different parses, where (in all Pet build parses) all that changes are the sets. Nevertheless, since I have been asked to provide my build info for both the Non-Pet and Pet builds I used, I will do that here.
Build Info:
Results (chart form):
Summary:
- Running a 2-piece monster set, 5 pieces of Necropotence, and 4 pieces of a Trials set like Infallible Aether or Moondancer/Master Architect looks to provide the best overall dps on a Pet Sorc.
- Good monster sets would be: Maw of the Infernal, Grothdarr, and Ilambris (especially if Concussion is covered by others to allow you to run an Inferno back-bar staff)
- Non-pet builds are on par with pet builds now
Raw Data (Parses and Recalculations):
Thanks for reading!
Edited by dpencil1 on September 3, 2017 9:11PM Compare several set combinations on a Pet Sorc to see how they impact overall dps in a PvE environment.
Problem:
Parsing on a 3mil dummy can generate a number of corrupting factors that can skew results. Key problematic factors are:
1. Mismatch between actual crits and the build's crit chance
2. Variations in Concussed procs, leading to varying uptimes of Minor Vulnerability and Off-Balance
3. Other proc chance events like Implosion
Solution Premise:
One method to reduce the impact of these factors is to test on larger dummies. This is what Gilliamtherogue does. My solution was to recalculate new average damage numbers from a 3mil parse that would make all skills match their build's crit chance, and would equalize any variance in debuff uptime.
Solution Method:
I'll demonstrate my method on Liquid Lightning from the 5th build listed below - Necro/Architect/Grothdarr.
1. On the Combat Metrics parse, the highest damage Liquid Lightning did on one hit was 7181. This would have happened with a Crit at a moment when the target was fully debuffed with Major Breach, Minor Vulnerability, and Off-Balance. Since we want to eliminate any impact of variable uptimes on these debuffs (and since a good trials group can keep them up 100% of the time anyway), we will calculate a new average damage from here.
2. To do that, we first need to remove the extra Crit damage and then mutilply that number by our average crit modifier. On all builds except the no-pet one, our crit damage is +65% with 37 points in Elfborn. So we divide our number by 1.65.
7181 / 1.65 = 4352
3. Now we need to know our average crit modifier. This build has 42% crit chance and 65% crit damage. (Crit chance adjustment explained in "Test Limitations" section)
(0.42 x 0.65) + 1 = 1.273
4. So the impact of our crit chance and crit damage is a 27.3% increase in average damage over our non-crit damage. Now we will divide this average from our max damage.
7181 / 5540 = 1.296
5. This number will be very important for us. By reducing our max damage hit on the Combat Metrics parse by dividing it by 1.296, we will be able to quickly determine our new optimized average damage that gives up a true average damage for the crit chance of our build, as well as removing any variability in debuff uptimes.
7181 / 1.296 = 5540
Side note on Rounding:
Because all damage is done in integers, rounding is necessary. My method for rounding was to round down unless the number was x,9, in which case I would round up. While this does skew results slightly, it should do so equally for all builds, so will have no meaningful impact on comparing results.
6. Now with our new average damage, we multiply by the number of hits recorded in the Combat Metrics damage parse. In this case, Liquid Lightning hit 80 tomes.
5540 x 80 = 443200
7. Now this total damage needs to be divided by the duration of combat, which was listed in Combat Meteics as 82.63 seconds.
443200 / 82.63 = 5363 dps
8. Since we have our key divisor for finding the normalized average, the rest of the skills can be calculated from step 5, taking the max hit number for each skill and dividing by 1.296, then following the remaining steps through. We can then add up all total damage from each skill and divide that by our combat time to get our total dps.
3211065 / 82.63 = 38860 total dps
Pets and Daedric Prey:
While we could simply apply the same method as above to our pet abilites, this would essentially make them equal to having Daedric Prey up 100%. Since my parses had Prey up about 62%, I wanted to reduce the average damage of these skills to reflect that. So first I needed to determine the multiplier for Daedric Prey:
(0.62 x 0.55) + 1 = 1.341
So I removed the crit bonus and prey bonuses from the original max damage amount:
13613 / 1.65 = 8250 / 1.55 = 5322
I then multiplied the reduced prey bonus and average crit multiplier back on, and completed the remaining steps:
5322 x 1.341 = 7136 x 1.299 = 9269 x 42 = 389298 = 4711
1. On the Combat Metrics parse, the highest damage Liquid Lightning did on one hit was 7181. This would have happened with a Crit at a moment when the target was fully debuffed with Major Breach, Minor Vulnerability, and Off-Balance. Since we want to eliminate any impact of variable uptimes on these debuffs (and since a good trials group can keep them up 100% of the time anyway), we will calculate a new average damage from here.
2. To do that, we first need to remove the extra Crit damage and then mutilply that number by our average crit modifier. On all builds except the no-pet one, our crit damage is +65% with 37 points in Elfborn. So we divide our number by 1.65.
7181 / 1.65 = 4352
3. Now we need to know our average crit modifier. This build has 42% crit chance and 65% crit damage. (Crit chance adjustment explained in "Test Limitations" section)
(0.42 x 0.65) + 1 = 1.273
4. So the impact of our crit chance and crit damage is a 27.3% increase in average damage over our non-crit damage. Now we will divide this average from our max damage.
7181 / 5540 = 1.296
5. This number will be very important for us. By reducing our max damage hit on the Combat Metrics parse by dividing it by 1.296, we will be able to quickly determine our new optimized average damage that gives up a true average damage for the crit chance of our build, as well as removing any variability in debuff uptimes.
7181 / 1.296 = 5540
Side note on Rounding:
Because all damage is done in integers, rounding is necessary. My method for rounding was to round down unless the number was x,9, in which case I would round up. While this does skew results slightly, it should do so equally for all builds, so will have no meaningful impact on comparing results.
6. Now with our new average damage, we multiply by the number of hits recorded in the Combat Metrics damage parse. In this case, Liquid Lightning hit 80 tomes.
5540 x 80 = 443200
7. Now this total damage needs to be divided by the duration of combat, which was listed in Combat Meteics as 82.63 seconds.
443200 / 82.63 = 5363 dps
8. Since we have our key divisor for finding the normalized average, the rest of the skills can be calculated from step 5, taking the max hit number for each skill and dividing by 1.296, then following the remaining steps through. We can then add up all total damage from each skill and divide that by our combat time to get our total dps.
3211065 / 82.63 = 38860 total dps
Pets and Daedric Prey:
While we could simply apply the same method as above to our pet abilites, this would essentially make them equal to having Daedric Prey up 100%. Since my parses had Prey up about 62%, I wanted to reduce the average damage of these skills to reflect that. So first I needed to determine the multiplier for Daedric Prey:
(0.62 x 0.55) + 1 = 1.341
So I removed the crit bonus and prey bonuses from the original max damage amount:
13613 / 1.65 = 8250 / 1.55 = 5322
I then multiplied the reduced prey bonus and average crit multiplier back on, and completed the remaining steps:
5322 x 1.341 = 7136 x 1.299 = 9269 x 42 = 389298 = 4711
So what do these dps numbers really mean?
The newly calculated dps numbers represent true average damage in a 100% debuff environment, and would proportionally hold true in lower % debuff environments as well. They help to show how the various factors such as max magicka, spell damage, and crit chance work together to boost pet and non-pet damage, and which combinations result in better overall dps.
Test Limitations:
Ideally, I would have used an Infallible Aether Infused lightning staff in every parse that could use it. Unfortunately, I do not have any IA staves on Live, and the PTS template bags do not include IA at all. I was able to make do with Julianos being front-barred, since the extra spell damage from the Infused vMA staff is almost the same anyway. The PTS template bags do contain Master Architect, but only have Precise weapons, and since I don't have any of those weapons on Live either, I had to resort to using 4 Master Architect with a Precise front bar for the 5th parse. To adjust for this inconsistency, I changed the number of Concussed procs and Charged Weapon attacks to match the other parses, since there would be more of both with an Infused weapon. I also subtracted the additional crit chance that Precise provides and added 30% more damage to Charged Weapon, since that would be the other benefit from an Infused weapon. This still leaves the difference between the 2-piece crit bonus on IA and the magicka bonus on Architect, but the difference would be too small to really warrant additional calculations.
Builds were optimized for target skeleton parsing solo. Changes to accommodate group play or different playstyles will effect dps in various ways, but those differences will be related to other factors, NOT the sets being used. For example, if all builds took the Apprentice stone, it would benefit the Non-Pet build more than the Pet build. This has nothing to do with the sets used, though, and only speaks to the differences between Mundus stones and the fact that pets don't benefit from increasing spell damage, which is not our topic of interest in this thread. So, to a cetrain extent, knowing the details of these builds is somewhat irrelevant. The important info is the comparison between the different parses, where (in all Pet build parses) all that changes are the sets. Nevertheless, since I have been asked to provide my build info for both the Non-Pet and Pet builds I used, I will do that here.
Build Info:
About the Lover Mundus Stone:
In a solo parse, Lover is best. Light armor, Lover, Major Breach, and 45 points in Spell Erosion gets you to 18200 penetration. This holds true in 4-man dungeons where there are no armor debuffs other than Major Breach as well. If the tank is applying Infused Crusher, you need 2108 less (only 16-17 points into Spell Erosion needed). In a trials environment with coordinated debuffs, Lover will be overkill, so the Apprentice, Mage, or Thief are alternatives. Apprentice for Non-Pet; Mage for Pet if you want more raw pet damge, extra resources, and bigger shields; Thief for more crit hits and more healing from Power Surge.
Non-Pet Build:
Mundus: Lover
Food: Blue Health/Magicka
Potions: Spell Damage, Crit, Magicka
Blue CP: Elfborn - 40, Elemental Expert - 43, Spell Erosion - 42, Master at Arms - 20, Thaumaturge - 75 (optimized by Asayre's calculator)
Bar 1: Crystal Frags, Force Pulse, Haunting Curse, Inner Light, Bound Aegis, Shooting Star
Bar 2: Liquid Lightning, Blockade of Storms, Elemental Drain (Empowered Ward in a group), Endless Fury, Bound Aegis, Thunderous Rage
Rotation:
Potion, Ele Drain, Thunderous Rage 1st, Shooting Star thereafter
[LA, Liquid Lightning, LA, Blockade of Storms
Bar Swap
(LA, Haunting Curse, HA, Force Pulse, LA, Crystal Frags)
Bar Swap]
- Keep potion, Ele Drain, Ulti up on cooldown
- Refresh LL and Blockade every 8 seconds
- Reapply Curse as soon after 2nd explosion as possible
- Heavy attack at least once each rotation, leading into a Force Pulse or Curse
- Crystal Frags whenever it procs
- Force Pulse when there's nothing else to do
- Always weave Light Attacks, using Heavy only on front bar as needed
- At 20%, stay on the back bar, refreshing Liquid Lightning and Blockade of Storms while spamming (LA, Endless Fury)
Pet Build:
Mundus: Lover
Food: Blue Health/Magicka
Potions: Spell Damage, Crit, Magicka
Blue CP: Elfborn - 37, Elemental Expert - 43, Spell Erosion - 45, Master at Arms - 20, Thaumaturge - 75 (optimized by Asayre's calculator)
Bar 1: Endless Fury, Shock Clench, Volatile Familiar, Twilight Matriarch, Elemental Drain (Empowered Ward in a group), Shooting Star
Bar 2: Liquid Lightning, Blockade of Storms, Volatile Familiar, Twilight Matriarch, Daedric Prey, Shooting Star
Rotation:
Potion, Elemental Drain, Shooting Star
[LA, Liquid Lightning, LA, Blockade of Storms, LA, Familiar Pulse, LA, Daedric Prey
Bar Swap
HA, Shock Clench, LA (Ele Drain every 2nd rotation)
Bar Swap]
- Keep potion, Ele Drain, and Ulti up on cooldown
- At 20%, use Endless Fury about 4 times before reapplying dots.
Note about Twilight Matriarch:
Using the Twilight will provide better total single target dps than Bound Aegis, but not better AOE dps. While the Tormentor does boost Twilight damage, I don't find the bonus is worth the extra magicka and global cooldown cost. Since it only applies during the first 50% health, and it only hits every 2 seconds, that only amounts to about 17 out of 35 hits on the 3mil dummy. It would basically add an extra 25% damage to its Zap attack. Looking at the 5th parse again: 2261 x 1.25 = 2826. So in isolation, it's worth 565 extra dps, but again, it also costs magicka and a global cooldown. It doesn't seem worth it to me compared to having an on-demand heal for your pets, yourself, and potentially group members. I have actually helped save trials from wiping before because I was able to heal the people rezzing the healers when things went badly. If you really want to use the Tormentor, you could alternate activating the Tormentor with reapplying Ele Drain in your parse rotation.
In a solo parse, Lover is best. Light armor, Lover, Major Breach, and 45 points in Spell Erosion gets you to 18200 penetration. This holds true in 4-man dungeons where there are no armor debuffs other than Major Breach as well. If the tank is applying Infused Crusher, you need 2108 less (only 16-17 points into Spell Erosion needed). In a trials environment with coordinated debuffs, Lover will be overkill, so the Apprentice, Mage, or Thief are alternatives. Apprentice for Non-Pet; Mage for Pet if you want more raw pet damge, extra resources, and bigger shields; Thief for more crit hits and more healing from Power Surge.
Non-Pet Build:
Mundus: Lover
Food: Blue Health/Magicka
Potions: Spell Damage, Crit, Magicka
Blue CP: Elfborn - 40, Elemental Expert - 43, Spell Erosion - 42, Master at Arms - 20, Thaumaturge - 75 (optimized by Asayre's calculator)
Bar 1: Crystal Frags, Force Pulse, Haunting Curse, Inner Light, Bound Aegis, Shooting Star
Bar 2: Liquid Lightning, Blockade of Storms, Elemental Drain (Empowered Ward in a group), Endless Fury, Bound Aegis, Thunderous Rage
Rotation:
Potion, Ele Drain, Thunderous Rage 1st, Shooting Star thereafter
[LA, Liquid Lightning, LA, Blockade of Storms
Bar Swap
(LA, Haunting Curse, HA, Force Pulse, LA, Crystal Frags)
Bar Swap]
- Keep potion, Ele Drain, Ulti up on cooldown
- Refresh LL and Blockade every 8 seconds
- Reapply Curse as soon after 2nd explosion as possible
- Heavy attack at least once each rotation, leading into a Force Pulse or Curse
- Crystal Frags whenever it procs
- Force Pulse when there's nothing else to do
- Always weave Light Attacks, using Heavy only on front bar as needed
- At 20%, stay on the back bar, refreshing Liquid Lightning and Blockade of Storms while spamming (LA, Endless Fury)
Pet Build:
Mundus: Lover
Food: Blue Health/Magicka
Potions: Spell Damage, Crit, Magicka
Blue CP: Elfborn - 37, Elemental Expert - 43, Spell Erosion - 45, Master at Arms - 20, Thaumaturge - 75 (optimized by Asayre's calculator)
Bar 1: Endless Fury, Shock Clench, Volatile Familiar, Twilight Matriarch, Elemental Drain (Empowered Ward in a group), Shooting Star
Bar 2: Liquid Lightning, Blockade of Storms, Volatile Familiar, Twilight Matriarch, Daedric Prey, Shooting Star
Rotation:
Potion, Elemental Drain, Shooting Star
[LA, Liquid Lightning, LA, Blockade of Storms, LA, Familiar Pulse, LA, Daedric Prey
Bar Swap
HA, Shock Clench, LA (Ele Drain every 2nd rotation)
Bar Swap]
- Keep potion, Ele Drain, and Ulti up on cooldown
- At 20%, use Endless Fury about 4 times before reapplying dots.
Note about Twilight Matriarch:
Using the Twilight will provide better total single target dps than Bound Aegis, but not better AOE dps. While the Tormentor does boost Twilight damage, I don't find the bonus is worth the extra magicka and global cooldown cost. Since it only applies during the first 50% health, and it only hits every 2 seconds, that only amounts to about 17 out of 35 hits on the 3mil dummy. It would basically add an extra 25% damage to its Zap attack. Looking at the 5th parse again: 2261 x 1.25 = 2826. So in isolation, it's worth 565 extra dps, but again, it also costs magicka and a global cooldown. It doesn't seem worth it to me compared to having an on-demand heal for your pets, yourself, and potentially group members. I have actually helped save trials from wiping before because I was able to heal the people rezzing the healers when things went badly. If you really want to use the Tormentor, you could alternate activating the Tormentor with reapplying Ele Drain in your parse rotation.
Results (chart form):
The following chart compiles the total dps from both parses and recalculations, subtracting 30k from all totals to better display differences
This chart compares the true average damage of the seven strongest Pet Sorc skills used. The no-pet build does not include any pet data, obviously.
This chart compares the true average damage of the seven strongest Pet Sorc skills used. The no-pet build does not include any pet data, obviously.
Summary:
- Running a 2-piece monster set, 5 pieces of Necropotence, and 4 pieces of a Trials set like Infallible Aether or Moondancer/Master Architect looks to provide the best overall dps on a Pet Sorc.
- Good monster sets would be: Maw of the Infernal, Grothdarr, and Ilambris (especially if Concussion is covered by others to allow you to run an Inferno back-bar staff)
- Non-pet builds are on par with pet builds now
Raw Data (Parses and Recalculations):
(NO PETS) 5 Julianos + 5 Infallible Aether + 1 Grothdarr (Front: Julianos Infused lightning w/Shock, Back: vMA Infused lightning)
5 Julianos + 5 Infallible Aether + 1 Grothdarr (Front: Julianos Infused lightning w/Shock, Back: vMA Infused lightning)
5 Julianos + 5 Necropotence + 1 Grothdarr (Front: Julianos Infused lightning w/Shock, Back: vMA Infused lightning)
5 Necropotence + 5 Infallible Aether + 1 Grothdarr (Front: Necropotence Infused lightning w/Shock, Back: vMA Infused lightning)
5 Necropotence + 4 Master Architect + 2 Grothdarr (Front: Master Architect Precise lightning w/Shock, Back: vMA Infused lightning)
*Why Architect and Precise instead of IA and Infused? Because I don't have access to an IA staff on Live or PTS, and PTS only has Precise staves for Architect. Recalculations adjust for this (see "Test Limitations" section)
Juli/IA (no pet) 64% Crit chance 66% Crit dmg
(0.64 x 0.66) + 1 = 1.4224
(LL) 6850 / 1.66 = 4126 x 1.4224 = 5868
6850 / 5868 = 1.167
(LA) 11157 / 1.66 = 6721 x 1.4224 = 9560
11157 / 9560 = 1.167
(/ 1.167)--(/84.58)
6850 = 5869 x 85 = 498865 = 5898
11157 = 9560 x 52 = 497120 = 5877
5390 = 4618 x 79 = 364822 = 4313
14152 = 12126 x 21 = 254646 = 3010
23459 = 20101 x 12 = 241212 = 2851
21734 = 18623 x 10 = 186230 = 2201
29215 = 25034 x 7 = 175238 = 2071
24655 = 21126 x 8 = 169008 = 1998
9107 = 7803 x 24 = 187272 = 2214
19641 = 16830 x 7 = 117810 = 1392
11894 = 10191 x 11 = 112101 = 1325
5863 = 5023 x 17 = 85391 = 1009
5661 = 4850 x 17 = 82450 = 974
5661 = 4850 x 17 = 82450 = 974 (2957 total FP)
18225 = 15616 x 3 = 46848 = 553
6932 = 5940 x 7 = 41580 = 491
21224 = 18186 x 1 = 18186 = 215
1621 = 1389 x 14 = 19446 = 229
2936 = 2515 x 6 = 15090 = 178
1368 = 1172 x 1 = 1172 = 13
3196937 / 84.58
Total DPS = 37797
Juli/IA (pets) 61% Crit 65% Crit dmg
(0.61 x 0.65) + 1 = 1.3965
(0.62 x 0.55) + 1 = 1.341 multiplyer for pet Dmg with 62% prey uptime
6439 / 1.65 = 3902 x 1.3965 = 5449
6439 / 5449 = 1.181
10738 / 1.65 = 6507 x 1.3965 = 9087
10738 / 9087 = 1.181
(/ 1.181)--(/ 86.44)
6439 = 5449 x 83 = 452267 = 5232
10738 = 9092 x 50 = 454600 = 5259
10821 / 1.65 = 6558 / 1.55 = 4231 x 1.341 = 5673 x 1.3965 = 7922 x 43 = 340646 = 3940 (pet)
5036 = 4264 x 80 = 341120 = 3946
13910 = 11778 x 22 = 259116 = 2997
11176 = 9463 x 22 = 208186 = 2408
6574 / 1.65 = 3984 / 1.55 = 2570 x 1.341 = 3446 x 1.3965 = 4812 x 36 = 173232 = 2004 (pet)
9165 = 7760 x 20 = 155200 = 1795
21585 = 18276 x 8 = 146208 = 1691
23889 = 20227 x 6 = 121362 = 1404
19053 = 16133 x 7 = 112931 = 1306
3044 = 2577 x 30 = 77310 = 894
31695 = 26837 x 2 = 53674 = 621
9743 = 8249 x 7 = 57743 = 668
1808 / 1.65 = 1095 / 1.55 = 706 x 1.341 = 946 x 36 = 34056 = 394 (pet)
19190 = 16249 x 2 = 32498 = 376
1531 = 1296 x 34 = 44064 = 509
6716 = 5686 x 5 = 28430 = 328
3092643 / 86.44
Total DPS = 35778
Juli/Necro 53.4% Crit chance, 65% Crit dmg
(0.534 x 0.65) + 1 = 1.3471
(0.62 x 0.55) + 1 = 1.341 multiplyer for pet Dmg with 62% prey uptime
6643 / 1.65 = 4026 x 1.3471 = 5323
6643 / 5323 = 1.248
(/1.248)--(/85.32)
6643 = 5323 × 83 = 441809 = 5178
10786 = 8642 x 51 = 440742 = 5165
12516 / 1.65 = 7585 / 1.55 = 4892 x 1.341 = 6561 x 1.3471 = 8838 x 44 = 388872 = 4557 (pet)
5176 = 4147 x 80 = 331760 = 3888
13492 = 10811 x 21 = 227031 = 2661
11533 = 9241 x 22 =203302 = 2382
7571 / 1.65 = 4588 / 1.55 = 2960 x 1.341 = 3969 x 1.3471 = 5346 x 35 = 187110 = 2193 (pet)
24637 = 19741 x 8 = 157928 = 1851
22277 = 17850 x 8 =142800 = 1673
9203 = 7374 x 20 = 147480 = 1728
18511 = 14832 x 7 = 103824 = 1216
3127 = 2505 x 30 = 75150 = 880
10009 = 8020 x 7 = 56140 = 658
32657 = 26167 x 2 = 52334 = 613
2082 / 1.65 = 1261 / 1.55 = 813 x 1.341 = 1090 x 1.3471 = 1468 x 34 = 49912 = 585 (pet)
16241 = 13013 x 2 = 26026 = 305
1574 = 1261 x 34 = 42874 = 502
6925 = 5548 x 7 = 38836 = 455
3113930 / 85.32
Total DPS = 36497
Necro/IA 49.6% Crit chance, 65% Crit dmg
(0.496 x 0.65) + 1 = 1.3224
(0.62 x 0.55) + 1 = 1.341 multiplyer for pet Dmg with 62% prey uptime
6991 / 1.65 = 4237 x 1.3224= 5603
6991 / 5603 = 1.247
(/1.247)--(/84.39)
6991 = 5606 x 81 = 454086 = 5380
10486 = 8409 x 49 = 412041 = 4882
13203 / 1.65 = 8001 / 1.55 = 5162 x 1.341 = 6922 x 1.3224 = 9153 x 43 = 393579 = 4663 (pet)
5450 = 4370 x 78 = 340860 = 4039
13741 = 11019 x 21 = 231399 = 2742
8237 / 1.65 = 4992 / 1.55 = 3220 x 1.341 = 4318 x 1.3224 = 5710 x 35 = 199850 = 2368 (pet)
12135 = 9731 x 22 = 214082 = 2536
23207 = 18610 x 8 = 148880 = 1764
25840 = 20721 x 6 = 124326 = 1473
8910 = 7145 x 19 = 135755 = 1608
15441 = 12382 x 7 = 86674 = 1027
3292 = 2640 x 30 = 79200 = 938
10469 = 8395 x 7 = 58765 = 696
2269 / 1.65 = 1375 / 1.55 = 887 x 1.341 = 1189 x 1.3224 = 1572 x 34 = 53448 = 633 (pet)
33721 = 27041 x 2 = 54082 = 640
1656 = 1328 x 34 = 45152 = 535
18518 = 14850 x 2 = 29700 = 352
7265 = 5826 x 6 = 34956 = 414
3096835 / 84.39
Total DPS = 36696
Necro/Architect/Grotharr 42% Crit chance, 65% Crit dmg
(0.42 x 0.65) + 1 = 1.273
(0.62 x 0.55) + 1 = 1.341 multiplyer for pet Dmg with 62% prey uptime
7181 / 1.65 = 4352 x 1.273 = 5540
7181 / 5540 = 1.296
(/1.296)--(/82.63)
7181 = 5540 x 80 = 443200 = 5363
13613 / 1.65 = 8250 / 1.55 = 5322 x 1.341 = 7136 x 1.273 = 9084 x 42 = 381528 = 4617 (pet)
10822 = 8350 x 49 = 409150 = 4951
5602 = 4322 x 77 = 332794 = 4027
13667 = 10545 x 21 = 221445 = 2680
12484 = 9632 x 22 = 211904 = 2564
8237 / 1.65 = 4992 / 1.55 = 3220 x 1.341 = 4318 x 1.273 = 5496 x 34 = 186864 = 2261 (pet)
24105 = 18599 x 8 = 148792 = 1800
3106 x 42 = 130452 = 1578 (grothdarr - no crit)
25992 = 20055 x 6 = 120330 = 1456
3300 = 2546 x 30 = 76380 = 924
15310 = 11813 x 7 = 82691 = 1000
3299 = 2545 x 24 = 61080 = 739 (burning, mainly from grothdarr)
10558 = 8146 x 7 = 57022 = 690
7080 = 5463 x 1.3 = 7102 x 20 = 142040 = 1719 (charged weapon, boosted by 30% and doubled to simulate Infused)
35340 = 27268 x 2 = 54536 = 660
2269 / 1.65 = 1375 / 1.55 = 887 x 1.341 = 1189 x 1.273 = 1513 x 32 = 48416 = 586 (pet)
19190 = 14807 x 2 = 29614 = 358
7306 = 5637 x 5 = 28185 = 341
1702 = 1313 x 34 = 44642 = 540 (concussion)
3211065 / 82.63
Total DPS = 38860
5 Julianos + 5 Infallible Aether + 1 Grothdarr (Front: Julianos Infused lightning w/Shock, Back: vMA Infused lightning)
5 Julianos + 5 Necropotence + 1 Grothdarr (Front: Julianos Infused lightning w/Shock, Back: vMA Infused lightning)
5 Necropotence + 5 Infallible Aether + 1 Grothdarr (Front: Necropotence Infused lightning w/Shock, Back: vMA Infused lightning)
5 Necropotence + 4 Master Architect + 2 Grothdarr (Front: Master Architect Precise lightning w/Shock, Back: vMA Infused lightning)
*Why Architect and Precise instead of IA and Infused? Because I don't have access to an IA staff on Live or PTS, and PTS only has Precise staves for Architect. Recalculations adjust for this (see "Test Limitations" section)
Juli/IA (no pet) 64% Crit chance 66% Crit dmg
(0.64 x 0.66) + 1 = 1.4224
(LL) 6850 / 1.66 = 4126 x 1.4224 = 5868
6850 / 5868 = 1.167
(LA) 11157 / 1.66 = 6721 x 1.4224 = 9560
11157 / 9560 = 1.167
(/ 1.167)--(/84.58)
6850 = 5869 x 85 = 498865 = 5898
11157 = 9560 x 52 = 497120 = 5877
5390 = 4618 x 79 = 364822 = 4313
14152 = 12126 x 21 = 254646 = 3010
23459 = 20101 x 12 = 241212 = 2851
21734 = 18623 x 10 = 186230 = 2201
29215 = 25034 x 7 = 175238 = 2071
24655 = 21126 x 8 = 169008 = 1998
9107 = 7803 x 24 = 187272 = 2214
19641 = 16830 x 7 = 117810 = 1392
11894 = 10191 x 11 = 112101 = 1325
5863 = 5023 x 17 = 85391 = 1009
5661 = 4850 x 17 = 82450 = 974
5661 = 4850 x 17 = 82450 = 974 (2957 total FP)
18225 = 15616 x 3 = 46848 = 553
6932 = 5940 x 7 = 41580 = 491
21224 = 18186 x 1 = 18186 = 215
1621 = 1389 x 14 = 19446 = 229
2936 = 2515 x 6 = 15090 = 178
1368 = 1172 x 1 = 1172 = 13
3196937 / 84.58
Total DPS = 37797
Juli/IA (pets) 61% Crit 65% Crit dmg
(0.61 x 0.65) + 1 = 1.3965
(0.62 x 0.55) + 1 = 1.341 multiplyer for pet Dmg with 62% prey uptime
6439 / 1.65 = 3902 x 1.3965 = 5449
6439 / 5449 = 1.181
10738 / 1.65 = 6507 x 1.3965 = 9087
10738 / 9087 = 1.181
(/ 1.181)--(/ 86.44)
6439 = 5449 x 83 = 452267 = 5232
10738 = 9092 x 50 = 454600 = 5259
10821 / 1.65 = 6558 / 1.55 = 4231 x 1.341 = 5673 x 1.3965 = 7922 x 43 = 340646 = 3940 (pet)
5036 = 4264 x 80 = 341120 = 3946
13910 = 11778 x 22 = 259116 = 2997
11176 = 9463 x 22 = 208186 = 2408
6574 / 1.65 = 3984 / 1.55 = 2570 x 1.341 = 3446 x 1.3965 = 4812 x 36 = 173232 = 2004 (pet)
9165 = 7760 x 20 = 155200 = 1795
21585 = 18276 x 8 = 146208 = 1691
23889 = 20227 x 6 = 121362 = 1404
19053 = 16133 x 7 = 112931 = 1306
3044 = 2577 x 30 = 77310 = 894
31695 = 26837 x 2 = 53674 = 621
9743 = 8249 x 7 = 57743 = 668
1808 / 1.65 = 1095 / 1.55 = 706 x 1.341 = 946 x 36 = 34056 = 394 (pet)
19190 = 16249 x 2 = 32498 = 376
1531 = 1296 x 34 = 44064 = 509
6716 = 5686 x 5 = 28430 = 328
3092643 / 86.44
Total DPS = 35778
Juli/Necro 53.4% Crit chance, 65% Crit dmg
(0.534 x 0.65) + 1 = 1.3471
(0.62 x 0.55) + 1 = 1.341 multiplyer for pet Dmg with 62% prey uptime
6643 / 1.65 = 4026 x 1.3471 = 5323
6643 / 5323 = 1.248
(/1.248)--(/85.32)
6643 = 5323 × 83 = 441809 = 5178
10786 = 8642 x 51 = 440742 = 5165
12516 / 1.65 = 7585 / 1.55 = 4892 x 1.341 = 6561 x 1.3471 = 8838 x 44 = 388872 = 4557 (pet)
5176 = 4147 x 80 = 331760 = 3888
13492 = 10811 x 21 = 227031 = 2661
11533 = 9241 x 22 =203302 = 2382
7571 / 1.65 = 4588 / 1.55 = 2960 x 1.341 = 3969 x 1.3471 = 5346 x 35 = 187110 = 2193 (pet)
24637 = 19741 x 8 = 157928 = 1851
22277 = 17850 x 8 =142800 = 1673
9203 = 7374 x 20 = 147480 = 1728
18511 = 14832 x 7 = 103824 = 1216
3127 = 2505 x 30 = 75150 = 880
10009 = 8020 x 7 = 56140 = 658
32657 = 26167 x 2 = 52334 = 613
2082 / 1.65 = 1261 / 1.55 = 813 x 1.341 = 1090 x 1.3471 = 1468 x 34 = 49912 = 585 (pet)
16241 = 13013 x 2 = 26026 = 305
1574 = 1261 x 34 = 42874 = 502
6925 = 5548 x 7 = 38836 = 455
3113930 / 85.32
Total DPS = 36497
Necro/IA 49.6% Crit chance, 65% Crit dmg
(0.496 x 0.65) + 1 = 1.3224
(0.62 x 0.55) + 1 = 1.341 multiplyer for pet Dmg with 62% prey uptime
6991 / 1.65 = 4237 x 1.3224= 5603
6991 / 5603 = 1.247
(/1.247)--(/84.39)
6991 = 5606 x 81 = 454086 = 5380
10486 = 8409 x 49 = 412041 = 4882
13203 / 1.65 = 8001 / 1.55 = 5162 x 1.341 = 6922 x 1.3224 = 9153 x 43 = 393579 = 4663 (pet)
5450 = 4370 x 78 = 340860 = 4039
13741 = 11019 x 21 = 231399 = 2742
8237 / 1.65 = 4992 / 1.55 = 3220 x 1.341 = 4318 x 1.3224 = 5710 x 35 = 199850 = 2368 (pet)
12135 = 9731 x 22 = 214082 = 2536
23207 = 18610 x 8 = 148880 = 1764
25840 = 20721 x 6 = 124326 = 1473
8910 = 7145 x 19 = 135755 = 1608
15441 = 12382 x 7 = 86674 = 1027
3292 = 2640 x 30 = 79200 = 938
10469 = 8395 x 7 = 58765 = 696
2269 / 1.65 = 1375 / 1.55 = 887 x 1.341 = 1189 x 1.3224 = 1572 x 34 = 53448 = 633 (pet)
33721 = 27041 x 2 = 54082 = 640
1656 = 1328 x 34 = 45152 = 535
18518 = 14850 x 2 = 29700 = 352
7265 = 5826 x 6 = 34956 = 414
3096835 / 84.39
Total DPS = 36696
Necro/Architect/Grotharr 42% Crit chance, 65% Crit dmg
(0.42 x 0.65) + 1 = 1.273
(0.62 x 0.55) + 1 = 1.341 multiplyer for pet Dmg with 62% prey uptime
7181 / 1.65 = 4352 x 1.273 = 5540
7181 / 5540 = 1.296
(/1.296)--(/82.63)
7181 = 5540 x 80 = 443200 = 5363
13613 / 1.65 = 8250 / 1.55 = 5322 x 1.341 = 7136 x 1.273 = 9084 x 42 = 381528 = 4617 (pet)
10822 = 8350 x 49 = 409150 = 4951
5602 = 4322 x 77 = 332794 = 4027
13667 = 10545 x 21 = 221445 = 2680
12484 = 9632 x 22 = 211904 = 2564
8237 / 1.65 = 4992 / 1.55 = 3220 x 1.341 = 4318 x 1.273 = 5496 x 34 = 186864 = 2261 (pet)
24105 = 18599 x 8 = 148792 = 1800
3106 x 42 = 130452 = 1578 (grothdarr - no crit)
25992 = 20055 x 6 = 120330 = 1456
3300 = 2546 x 30 = 76380 = 924
15310 = 11813 x 7 = 82691 = 1000
3299 = 2545 x 24 = 61080 = 739 (burning, mainly from grothdarr)
10558 = 8146 x 7 = 57022 = 690
7080 = 5463 x 1.3 = 7102 x 20 = 142040 = 1719 (charged weapon, boosted by 30% and doubled to simulate Infused)
35340 = 27268 x 2 = 54536 = 660
2269 / 1.65 = 1375 / 1.55 = 887 x 1.341 = 1189 x 1.273 = 1513 x 32 = 48416 = 586 (pet)
19190 = 14807 x 2 = 29614 = 358
7306 = 5637 x 5 = 28185 = 341
1702 = 1313 x 34 = 44642 = 540 (concussion)
3211065 / 82.63
Total DPS = 38860
Thanks for reading!
9
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Asayre✭✭✭✭✭
✭What do you estimate your standard deviation for these parses to be?Reference for any calculation I make Introduction to PvE Damage Calculation0 -
dpencil1✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Asayre
For the actual parses themselves, the main factors were whether the number of crits matched the actual crit chance of the build, the different uptimes of Minor Vulnerability, Off Balance, and to a 1-2% degree Prey. In all of the pet parses, the actual gameplay rotation was 100% identical. I obviously had to do a very different rotation for the non-pet parse, which is not strictly to be compared, but just to show that non-pet is definitely competitive.
The math at the bottom attempts to remove all deviation whatsoever between the parses. The only point of corruption (which is slight) is that I rounded damage numbers down except if they were at X.9, in which case I rounded them up to the next integer. I did this universally, though, so it shouldn't have meaningfully skewed the results.
I took the highest registered damage for each skill (which in basically every case was when Minor Vulnerability and Off Balance were both procced, and for pets, when Prey was also up), found the average damage of the skill under this condition (i.e. Minor Vulnerability and Off Balance up 100%, and Prey at 62%), and multiplied it by the number of attacks recorded. This made sure that differences in proc chance for crits or debuffs were eliminated. I added up all total damage and divided by the time of combat to get the total dps. I also divided each damage total by the time of combat to find their individual dps as well.
So the math basically removes any deviations related to set effectiveness. Certainly, different parses could have deviation, but this would be due to other factors like group debuff uptime, which are independent of the sets themselves. If you have a group that is able to keep up 100% uptime on Minor Vulnerability and Off Balance, and the fight is long enough to allow your crit ratio to match your true crit chance, and you can perform the rotation without interruption (like on a stack and burn boss), this is the damage you would do using these sets with this rotation.0 -
DPShiro✭✭✭✭✭
✭What is your rotation and cp for pet/no pet?
Can you post the actual parses as well?~ Gryphon Heart ~
~ Immortal Redeemer ~
~ Grand Master Crafter ~
~ Master Angler ~
~ Former Emperor ~0 -
dpencil1✭✭✭✭✭
✭@DPShiro
The parses are already in there. Look in the Raw Data section at the bottom of the OP.
@Sotomaior
I've added a new section in the OP with detailed build info.0 -
Sotomaior✭✭Thanks for all your work ,for the non pet set-up,infused main hand and nirn back it's the way to go?Edited by Sotomaior on September 3, 2017 5:53PM0 -
dpencil1✭✭✭✭✭
✭I like Infused backbar vMA. It does better than keeping Julianos on both bars and using Nirnhoned in that. You lose some spell damage in your back bar, but gain a bunch of damage for all your light and heavy attacks on both bars.0 -
Sotomaior✭✭Unfortunately I don't have any infused mael staff.got 1 inferno nirn.I use that in back and infused aether lightning in main....0
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dpencil1✭✭✭✭✭
✭That's fine. The difference is negligable between most of the vMA staff traits. Although, using Inferno on the back bar, you won't be procing Off Balance. That's fine in a trials group with others covering it, but will not be optimal in solo or 4-man groups (unless the other dps takes care of it). Definitely use Ilambris if you're doing Inferno backbar.Edited by dpencil1 on September 3, 2017 7:23PM1 -
Concret✭✭✭I agree, my best results (solo and trial) are with necro and Moondancer (and I tested a lot of stuff)
One more thing that a lot of people forget is that sustain is as important as math in trial. The most effective build become useless when magicka fall at 0. A larger magicka pool gives a better sustain.
For those who wants here is the build I am using for my pet sorc : https://www.eso-skillfactory.com/fr/build/sorcier/pet-another-build/7253/
Maybe not the best build but very esay to play, very effective in trial and nearly infinite sustain0 -
Betsararie✭✭✭✭✭
✭I like Infused backbar vMA. It does better than keeping Julianos on both bars and using Nirnhoned in that. You lose some spell damage in your back bar, but gain a bunch of damage for all your light and heavy attacks on both bars.
Thanks so much for the info. Very valuable as always
Want to ask you about your weapon enchants... Are you running spell damage on back and shock damage on front?0 -
dpencil1✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Sotomaior
LOL. Ok good. I never like to assume. Sounds like you're good to go then!1 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Hmm if non pet sorc is on pair with pet sorc then what is the reason to run with pet ? Pet is clucnky dies often takes 2 slots and disturb in some mechanics and only reason people was running it was higher DPS then on non pet. Now when both supposed to be equal why should anyone run with pet ?...0 -
dpencil1✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yes, I agree with Sotomaior. It's definitely a good thing that non-pet is no longer way behind pet builds because not everyone enjoys running pets. Some people do (like me), even despite whatever shortcomings they might have. It's just a different playstyle choice. From a min/max perspective, pet sorcs will usually be slightly stronger, but the gap is just much much smaller now. Before it was a difference between 30k and 40k. Now it's more like between 35k and 37k.0 -
dpencil1✭✭✭✭✭
✭OP updated with a comment about why I use Twilight Matriarch (at the bottom of the Build Info section).
Also, I realized I hadn't added the additional 30% bonus from Infused to the Charged Weapon attacks on the 5th parse (see the "Test Limitations" section for an explanation of this), so I did that, which increased that setup's recalculated dps by 396 to 38860.0 -
Dymence✭✭✭✭✭
✭While the majority of the post is interesting, something irks me.
I find it very hard to believe that non-pet is on par with pet sorcs now. When non-pet is on par with pets, you must be doing something wrong when playing pets.Edited by Dymence on September 3, 2017 9:16PM0 -
dpencil1✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Dymence
While I appreciate your opinion, it's really just conjecture on your part without any proof of your own to back up the claim. I know how to play both Pet and Non-Pet Sorc well, and was surprised at these findings myself, as I too had the experience of feeling that Non-Pet was quite underpowered previously. If you'd like to post a +40k solo Pet-Sorc parse and your best Non-Pet parse that is much worse, then you may have a provable case. Otherwise, there's not much to do with your statement.2 -
Dymence✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Dymence
While I appreciate your opinion, it's really just conjecture on your part without any proof of your own to back up the claim. I know how to play both Pet and Non-Pet Sorc well, and was surprised at these findings myself, as I too had the experience of feeling that Non-Pet was quite underpowered previously. If you'd like to post a +40k solo Pet-Sorc parse and your best Non-Pet parse that is much worse, then you may have a provable case. Otherwise, there's not much to do with your statement.
Yeah I know I don't really have any proof on the part but it just doesn't make any sense as the pet is an extremely strong DoT ability. It doesn't make sense for it to not be stronger. It's more of a gut feeling though and I understand you can't really do anything with that kind of information.
I have also had 40k parses with pets and I have tested non-pet in the past with absolute horrendous results, but I can't say I've tested it since HoTR. I might do some quick parses tomorrow and post metrics along with it.
Also you must keep in mind that a pet will likely still be more valuable in raids due to the cleave damage it provides.Edited by Dymence on September 3, 2017 11:53PM0 -
dpencil1✭✭✭✭✭
✭Highest possible dps for several monster sets on the 5-Necro/4-Architect setup against the 3mil dummy (100% Minor Vulnerability, Exploiter, and Major Breach uptime):
(With Inferno backbar and group providing 100% Vuln/Exploit/Breach uptime)
Ilambris: 2082 Lightning, 2019 Fire
4101 x 5 = 20505 / 8 = 2563 dps + burning procs (stationary 4 meter aoe, needs both lightning and fire damage for max effect)
Grothdarr: 3106 x 6 = 18636 / 10 = 1863 + burning procs (mobile aoe with 6 meter radius around player)
Infernal Guardian: 3-4 procs over 82 seconds (55% vs 73% uptime)
Fiery Breath (1 attack for sure, possibly 2 or some of a 2nd before despawning. If 2 full attacks, its 10 instead of 5 hits in 1 spawn)
5703 x 5 = 28515 x 3 = 85545 / 82 = 1043
5703 x 5 = 28515 x 4 = 114060 / 82 = 1391
Jagged Claw (usually 3 attacks)
6872 x 3 = 20616 x 3 = 61848 / 82 = 754
6872 x 3 = 20616 x 4 = 82464 / 82 = 1005
Fiery Jaws (usually only 1, sometimes 2)
6872 x 3 = 20616 / 82 = 251
6872 x 4 = 27488 / 82 = 335
Total dps for 3 procs over 82 seconds: 2048 + burning procs
Total dps for 4 procs over 82 seconds: 2731 + burning procs
Remember, these numbers assume every hit benefits from Vuln/Exploit/Breach/Prey
(Pet, primarily single target)
Domihaus: 256 Spell Damage Increase
1726 x 11 = 18986 / 15 = 1265 + burning procs (stationary ring of fire 10 meters out from player, small area of effect hit accutately with fire ring, large circle that buffs spell damage)
Liquid Lightning went from 4239 to 4508, a gain of 269. (6.34% gain)
Light Attack went from 6623 to 6814 (2.88% gain)
Blockade went from 3395 to 3515 (3.53% gain)
It's tough to determine exactly how much more dps 256 extra spell damage actually adds in this context. If anyone has any ideas, I'm happy to hear them.
Valkyn Skoria: 13397 x 10 = 133970 / 82 = 1633 + burning procs
Out of 82 seconds, you'd have 16 possible chances for it proc. The best I got was 11, but 10 seems more likely. Basically 5 seconds of cooldown and about 3 seconds to proc the next meteor.
I would do Slimecraw also, but it's more tricky than the others to nail down. I need to think more about it.Edited by dpencil1 on September 4, 2017 5:24AM0 -
Morgul667✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I agree, my best results (solo and trial) are with necro and Moondancer (and I tested a lot of stuff)
One more thing that a lot of people forget is that sustain is as important as math in trial. The most effective build become useless when magicka fall at 0. A larger magicka pool gives a better sustain.
For those who wants here is the build I am using for my pet sorc : https://www.eso-skillfactory.com/fr/build/sorcier/pet-another-build/7253/
Maybe not the best build but very esay to play, very effective in trial and nearly infinite sustain
Do you have a variant without the pets by any chance ?
0 -
Concret✭✭✭I agree, my best results (solo and trial) are with necro and Moondancer (and I tested a lot of stuff)
One more thing that a lot of people forget is that sustain is as important as math in trial. The most effective build become useless when magicka fall at 0. A larger magicka pool gives a better sustain.
For those who wants here is the build I am using for my pet sorc : https://www.eso-skillfactory.com/fr/build/sorcier/pet-another-build/7253/
Maybe not the best build but very esay to play, very effective in trial and nearly infinite sustain
Do you have a variant without the pets by any chance ?
There isnt any boss in this game where I dont use pet
Sometimes pet dies a lot or can be anoying but using matriarch can generally helps in these situations
For non pet I think I will probably using hunting curse and pulse/frag build but I can t sustain this build in trial =/Edited by Concret on September 4, 2017 6:17AM0 -
Morgul667✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I agree, my best results (solo and trial) are with necro and Moondancer (and I tested a lot of stuff)
One more thing that a lot of people forget is that sustain is as important as math in trial. The most effective build become useless when magicka fall at 0. A larger magicka pool gives a better sustain.
For those who wants here is the build I am using for my pet sorc : https://www.eso-skillfactory.com/fr/build/sorcier/pet-another-build/7253/
Maybe not the best build but very esay to play, very effective in trial and nearly infinite sustain
Do you have a variant without the pets by any chance ?
There isnt any boss in this game where I dont use pet
Sometimes pet dies a lot or can be anoying but using matriarch can generally helps in these situations
For non pet I think I will probably using hunting curse and pulse/frag build but I can t sustain this build in trial =/
Ok thanks 0 -
dpencil1✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Morgul667
Do you have a problem with the Non-Pet build I used in the OP? The rotation is flexible enough to grab an extra HA when you need it, so you can tailor your sustain to the situation a bit. You wouldn't necessarily have to go Julianos/IA if you'd prefer to run something else. But I think the CP, Skills, and Rotation are solid.Edited by dpencil1 on September 4, 2017 6:29AM0