Pet Sorc DPS Set Comparison (with Parse data)

Morgul667

dpencil1 wrote: »

@Morgul667
Do you have a problem with the Non-Pet build I used in the OP? The rotation is flexible enough to grab an extra HA when you need it, so you can tailor your sustain to the situation a bit. You wouldn't necessarily have to go Julianos/IA if you'd prefer to run something else. But I think the CP, Skills, and Rotation are solid.

It seems pretty solid and the "old school" build but I wonder 2 things

- whether I can sustain it in trial (I had trouble doing so when morrowind went out and ended up doing a lot of HA)

- whether the dependance on crystal frag is not going to be an issue for me, as I have a lot of lag (I currently live in asia and play on EU). Could replace frag with clench maybe but then would lose the minor prophecy bonus, thought about mines but they use too much mana

Ill give your build a try

By the way I always appreciate your posts and helps to the community. Thanks for that ! @dpencil1

dpencil1

@Morgul667
I don't think sustain would be a big issue as long as you are willing to do one or two HAs each rotation, maybe less if you use Witchmother's Brew. If you have good healers you shouldn't need to shield much. On my parse I was only draining 400 faster than I was regaining, which mainly comes from Fury spam at the end.

As to C Frags, lag is a worthy concern, but that could mess up a static rotation as much as a dynamic one. If I were in that situation, I would go for a pet build with upfront dots (LL, Wall, Familiar, Prey) followed by 2 HAs. That's probably the most forgiving setup for lag.

Morgul667

dpencil1 wrote: »

@Morgul667
I don't think sustain would be a big issue as long as you are willing to do one or two HAs each rotation, maybe less if you use Witchmother's Brew. If you have good healers you shouldn't need to shield much. On my parse I was only draining 400 faster than I was regaining, which mainly comes from Fury spam at the end.

As to C Frags, lag is a worthy concern, but that could mess up a static rotation as much as a dynamic one. If I were in that situation, I would go for a pet build with upfront dots (LL, Wall, Familiar, Prey) followed by 2 HAs. That's probably the most forgiving setup for lag.

Thanks

dpencil1

New personal best in HotR, using the 5 Necro / 4 Architect setup with Domihaus:

Sotomaior

Ehi @dpencil1 ,you don't like to sleep a lot,is it true?

dpencil1

@Sotomaior
Sleep is for the weak.

...It also helps that I didn't have to get up early for anything today.

Dymence

I did a few dummy tests today, 3-4 with a pet build and the same for the non-pet build. Below are the best results I was able to get with each.

Non-pet build:



Pet build:

My conclusion is that there is still a noticable difference between a pet and non-pet build on single target, not to mention pets easily win out in real raid scenario's where there are adds to cleave.

Some noticable differences between your setups and my setups:

I used apprentice mundus on every parse rather than going for lover. Not a fan of lover as it is solely to cheese the target dummy for more DPS. I also used my raid setup for my pet build, which includes having crystal fragments instead of an execute (to provide the group with minor prophecy) and having fire rune to proc ilambris since I'm running lightning blockade for offbalance. I also used my own CP which is: Elfborn - 48, Elemental Expert - 56, Spell Erosion - 41, Thaumaturge - 75. I used 2 Ilambris, 5 Necropotence and 4 Moondancer with an infused Moondancer staff on mainbar and a sharpened vMA staff on offbar (would use infused if I had one).

For the non-pet build I followed the exact same setup you used for your testing as I'm not too familiar with running a non-pet setup anymore. Same gear, same CP, same skills & rotation, just having apprentice mundus instead of lover.

dpencil1

Awesome @Dymence thanks for that. I guess it comes down to what someone considers "on par." Maybe for top end competitive raids, you'd still need a Pet Build, but for most players a difference between 36k and 39k isn't going to be a big deal, especially if they are pretty opposed to running pets already.

On your pet parse itself, how much total dps did you get from Ilambris and have to tried some other sets? Also, I'd like to try out your skills and rotation if you don't mind posting it. I've tried using Scalding Rune before to proc Ilambris, but I didn't get good results with it. The animation time is so clunky.

Dymence

dpencil1 wrote: »

Awesome @Dymence thanks for that. I guess it comes down to what someone considers "on par." Maybe for top end competitive raids, you'd still need a Pet Build, but for most players a difference between 36k and 39k isn't going to be a big deal, especially if they are pretty opposed to running pets already.

Yeah I guess you're right about that. You could say the non-pet was practically 37k since it was 36991, making the gap even smaller. But then again as I have said before, in AOE scenario's you'll get much more from the pet as opposed to non-pet.

dpencil1 wrote: »

On your pet parse itself, how much total dps did you get from Ilambris and have to tried some other sets? Also, I'd like to try out your skills and rotation if you don't mind posting it. I've tried using Scalding Rune before to proc Ilambris, but I didn't get good results with it. The animation time is so clunky.

The total DPS from Ilambris on that parse was 1.5k. I've only tried out skoria from other sets which can pull up to 2k dps aswell. But everything else than Ilambris comes with its own problems.

Skoria, while not a bad set at all, will provide less cleave damage overall and you're stuck with the 1 piece health bonus rather than having a magicka bonus.

Grothdarr, while pulling good numbers, pretty much beats the entire point of playing a ranged DD since you need to take a melee spot and they're already being pumped full with stamina. However, if you're just running dungeons and can afford to be in melee range it will be a good set to use.

Domihaus is in my opinion the worst of all, since it won't really be good on anything else than a training dummy due to you having to position yourself in such a way that the outer edge will spawn on the target. On any boss that moves in a dungeon or raid it becomes completely pointless to use it.

My skill setup is as follows:

Front bar: Crystal Fragments - Scalding Rune - Daedric Prey - Volatile Familiar - Bound Aegis - Shooting Star
Back bar: Elemental Drain (Empowered Ward in group) - Elemental Blockade - Liquid Lightning - Volatile Familiar - Bound Aegis - Elemental Rage

The rotation differs slightly depending on frag procs. For the dummy it looks something like this:

Elemental Drain -> Pot -> Destro ult -> LA -> Liquid Lightning -> LA -> Blockade -> Barswap -> LA -> Daedric Prey -> LA -> Familiar Pulse -> LA -> Scalding Rune -> LA -> *Crystal Frags if procced -> Heavy attack -> *Scalding rune if frags didn't proc -> Barswap and repeat starting with LA and going onto Liquid Lightning again.

Obviously you'll want to keep up elemental drain and you will throw shooting star once it's ready to finish off the dummy. In dungeons/raids you'll use different ults depending on situation, like if there's a lot of adds you'll want to save for the destro ult again etc.

dpencil1

@Dymence
Ok cool. I was actually able to figure out your skill load out and rotation by studying your parse data, heh. But I think you need to put the Destro Ulti on the front bar and Shooting Star on the back. The way you have it set up, you are losing the destro aoe damage bonus on your front bar since you have no destro skills there.

I'm not really used to the rotation yet, but it seems pretty resource hungry. I was only able to pull 35k with it and was scraping the bottom of my magicka pool by the end. Gotta practice some more to get a better feel of the timing.

You could also try replacing Scalding Rune with Clench and using Infernal Guardian, or keep Scalding if you prefer it. But using the Apprentice stone, you'd get a better boost to Ilambris than IG, and Ilambris is more consistent in terms of uptime and aoe potential. IG might be better for constantly moving targets though.

Dymence

dpencil1 wrote: »

@Dymence
Ok cool. I was actually able to figure out your skill load out and rotation by studying your parse data, heh. But I think you need to put the Destro Ulti on the front bar and Shooting Star on the back. The way you have it set up, you are losing the destro aoe damage bonus on your front bar since you have no destro skills there.

Damn yeah you're right about that, I always keep forgetting about that since I tend to swap setups around a lot since HoTR to test different stuff. But that only puts pet build even further ahead. I've actually been testing around with 5 Julianos 5 Netch 1 Iceheart in raids so I usually have Clench on mainbar as destro skill instead of having Scalding Rune there. I'm still not really convinced on which pulls ahead, since for practical scenarios you have to consider pets might die etc. and a lot of cleave comes from your lightning damage.

dpencil1 wrote: »

I'm not reallt used to the rotatio yet, but it seems pretty resource hungry. I was only able to pull 35k with it and was scraping the bottom of my magicka pool by the end. Gotta practice some more to get a better feel of the timing.

You could also try replacing Scalding Rune with Clench and using Infernal Guardian, or keep Scalding if you prefer it. But using the Apprentice stone, you'd get a better boost to Ilambris than IG, and Ilambris is more consistent in terms of uptime and aoe potential. IG might be better for constantly moving targets though.

I don't think having to constantly shield yourself to get DPS from your monster set is a good idea. More shielding is less 'real time' dps only in favor of a proc set.

dpencil1

Bah, no. Maw of the Infernal. Names are too similar.

Dymence

dpencil1 wrote: »

Bah, no. Maw of the Infernal. Names are too similar.

Ahh, ok. I haven't tested maw myself since I don't have proper weights/traits of it, but from what I've heard it's not much use in raids since it gets stunned a lot.

Betsararie

Is the lover confirmed to be the best mundus for mag sorc dps over apprentice? What about PvP?

Does it ever make sense to slot the Mage?

dpencil1

@Blanco
The thing people like about Apprentice over Lover is that is always effective. It doesn't suddenly become useless because you're overpenetrating or your target is shielded. In a controlled environement, where you are responsible for most of your own penetration and your target will not be shielded, Lover will give more damage than any other mundus stone.

The Mage is a fine choice too. It doesn't give quite as much damage as Apprentice, but it is definitely the better choice if pets make up a large part of your damage, since they don't benefit from extra spell damage. It also provides more utility with larger shield size and more max resources.

Honestly, I think all three mundus stones are pretty well balanced against each other, so pick the one that fits your circumstances best.

Betsararie

dpencil1 wrote: »

@Blanco
The thing people like about Apprentice over Lover is that is always effective. It doesn't suddenly become useless because you're overpenetrating or your target is shielded. In a controlled environement, where you are responsible for most of your own penetration and your target will not be shielded, Lover will give more damage than any other mundus stone.

The Mage is a fine choice too. It doesn't give quite as much damage as Apprentice, but it is definitely the better choice if pets make up a large part of your damage, since they don't benefit from extra spell damage. It also provides more utility with larger shield size and more max resources.

Honestly, I think all three mundus stones are pretty well balanced against each other, so pick the one that fits your circumstances best.

I see. Very insightful. Thanks!

I feel like you've listed off everything that was going through my head in a far more concise way than I could've. lol

I'd been running with the apprentice but my only concern is the amount of pen I'm getting, I currently get to 3400 spell damage self buffed and 41k mag in cyro. But I would like to have a little more damage

The only cause I can discern is my spell penetration might be lacking, I'm currently running a build that does not incorporate Spinner's.

I probably will have to stick with the apprentice for now, but might do some testing on my own with the lover.

Morgul667

Thanks for sharing guys

Deyoz

Dymence wrote: »

Non-Pet

How did you do that and which build did you use .. My best is actual 30-31k

dpencil1

@Deyoz
He said he used exactly the build in the OP. Go to the "Build Info" section.

Deyoz

@dpencil1
I'm a bit confused about the selection you can play

Thanks

Dymence

Deyoz wrote: »

@dpencil1
I'm a bit confused about the selection you can play

Thanks

I simply followed these instructions from the OP, though I had Apprentice mundus and not Lover:

Non-Pet Build:
Mundus: Lover
Food: Blue Health/Magicka
Potions: Spell Damage, Crit, Magicka

Blue CP: Elfborn - 40, Elemental Expert - 43, Spell Erosion - 42, Master at Arms - 20, Thaumaturge - 75 (optimized by Asayre's calculator)

Bar 1: Crystal Frags, Force Pulse, Haunting Curse, Inner Light, Bound Aegis, Shooting Star

Bar 2: Liquid Lightning, Blockade of Storms, Elemental Drain (Empowered Ward in a group), Endless Fury, Bound Aegis, Thunderous Rage

Rotation:
Potion, Ele Drain, Thunderous Rage 1st, Shooting Star thereafter
[LA, Liquid Lightning, LA, Blockade of Storms
Bar Swap
(LA, Haunting Curse, HA, Force Pulse, LA, Crystal Frags)
Bar Swap]
- Keep potion, Ele Drain, Ulti up on cooldown
- Refresh LL and Blockade every 8 seconds
- Reapply Curse as soon after 2nd explosion as possible
- Heavy attack at least once each rotation, leading into a Force Pulse or Curse
- Crystal Frags whenever it procs
- Force Pulse when there's nothing else to do
- Always weave Light Attacks, using Heavy only on front bar as needed
- At 20%, stay on the back bar, refreshing Liquid Lightning and Blockade of Storms while spamming (LA, Endless Fury)

Deyoz

Dymence wrote: »

I simply followed these instructions from the OP, though I had Apprentice mundus and not Lover:

I've tested it and my best was 30.641 DPS, maybe my rotation isn't perfect however. Did you ever tested 4x IA, 2x Ilamrbis, 5x Julianos? Or 2 different monster sets? I would really care which build is stronger.

Morgul667

Thanks

I gave in the pet builds and well it is much more effective and easier to play when you have very high lag

I went with the tormentor but just saw the comments here, is it confirmed it only adds like 500 dps compared to a matriarch ? In such case Ill respec cause the potential "Oh crap button" is worth more than 500 dps to me

dpencil1

@Morgul667
That's my experience. Others may feel differently. It's pretty simple math. 50% stronger for 50%:of the fight is 25% stronger overall. So just see what the Twilight Matriarch's dps contribution would be for you. Multiply it by 0.25, and as yourself: "Is that much more dps worth giving up the 'oh crap' heals, as well as adding the need for a bit more skill and resource management?"

I'm not saying anyone who takes the Tormentor is making a "bad" choice. It's just not worth it to me.

Morgul667

dpencil1 wrote: »

@Morgul667
That's my experience. Others may feel differently. It's pretty simple math. 50% stronger for 50%:of the fight is 25% stronger overall. So just see what the Twilight Matriarch's dps contribution would be for you. Multiply it by 0.25, and as yourself: "Is that much more dps worth giving up the 'oh crap' heals, as well as adding the need for a bit more skill and resource management?"

I'm not saying anyone who takes the Tormentor is making a "bad" choice. It's just not worth it to me.

Thanks Appreciate your comment. It is indeed quite simple, Ill check tonight how much DPS it brings to the game

Artis

dpencil1 wrote: »

@Asayre
For the actual parses themselves, the main factors were whether the number of crits matched the actual crit chance of the build, the different uptimes of Minor Vulnerability, Off Balance, and to a 1-2% degree Prey. In all of the pet parses, the actual gameplay rotation was 100% identical. I obviously had to do a very different rotation for the non-pet parse, which is not strictly to be compared, but just to show that non-pet is definitely competitive.

The math at the bottom attempts to remove all deviation whatsoever between the parses. The only point of corruption (which is slight) is that I rounded damage numbers down except if they were at X.9, in which case I rounded them up to the next integer. I did this universally, though, so it shouldn't have meaningfully skewed the results.

I took the highest registered damage for each skill (which in basically every case was when Minor Vulnerability and Off Balance were both procced, and for pets, when Prey was also up), found the average damage of the skill under this condition (i.e. Minor Vulnerability and Off Balance up 100%, and Prey at 62%), and multiplied it by the number of attacks recorded. This made sure that differences in proc chance for crits or debuffs were eliminated. I added up all total damage and divided by the time of combat to get the total dps. I also divided each damage total by the time of combat to find their individual dps as well.

So the math basically removes any deviations related to set effectiveness. Certainly, different parses could have deviation, but this would be due to other factors like group debuff uptime, which are independent of the sets themselves. If you have a group that is able to keep up 100% uptime on Minor Vulnerability and Off Balance, and the fight is long enough to allow your crit ratio to match your true crit chance, and you can perform the rotation without interruption (like on a stack and burn boss), this is the damage you would do using these sets with this rotation.

I'm sorry but are you sure you know what you're talking about? Remove all deviation? How? There are crits, you can't remove all deviation. +as you said yourself uptime of procs can be different.

As far as I understand he asked about something as simple as

Can you just calculate for all parses done with each setup? Cause your answer is kinda like "I read in a textbook but not really" type of answer of a student at the exam

I don't care either way, but that's an important number if you're trying to show any experimental result where the outcomes of a set of the "same" experiments are a bit different (and indeed - parses will vary).

dpencil1

@Artis
This was not a situatIon where I did a bunch of parses and took the average of them. I did one parse.only for each setup. All the factors that would cause deviation between parses were systematically removed, such as the number of actual crtis, uptime of debuffs, etc. That was the effect of me taking the highest damage value for each skill (which would always be the same for a particular build) and working from there to a new adjusted average dps that would be a true representation of the build's power.

Artis

.

dpencil1

@Artis
The actual parses served their function just fine. This is all the information that was needed from them:
1. The maximum damage for each skill
2. The total number of hits for each skill
3. The total duration of combat
4. The average crit chance of the build.

To compare dps sets on a static build, this is literally all the info you need. You don't need multiple trials, you just need to factor out the variables the would otherwise corrupt your data. It's a cleaner and more accurate method of comparison.

Did you read the whole OP (all the spoiler sections too)? I feel like I was pretty clear in explaining my method there. I mean, I'm happy to discuss it further, but I don't really want to just repeat what I've already written.

Artis

The total duration of the combat is what wasn't clear. That number won't be the same for different trials. But then when it changes, the number of hits will change, too. Guess, the error can't really be higher than 1 hit.