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Spell Penetration Examined (a PvE DPS perspective)

dpencil1
dpencil1
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What I will be presenting here is not necessarily new information, but my hope is that by explaining the concept of Spell Penetration in a comprehensive way, other players may be able to more easily understand and make choices regarding it. Many of the principles discussed will also apply in some degree to Stamina builds and PvP, but I will be using only Magicka PvE examples.

There are two sides to this issue:
1. How much incoming damage does a target's defenses mitigate?
2. How much more damage does an attacker do when a target's defenses are reduced by a particular amount?

At face value, these two questions may seem to be asking the same thing, but they actually are not. Let's explore these questions further.

TARGET MITIGATION
First, it is important to know that ZOS has assigned static values to mob mitigation in ESO. Overland enemies (excluding World Bosses) have 9100 mitigation, while Dungeon mobs (excluding Delve and Public Dungeon mobs) have 18200 mitigation. Resistance to a particular damage type increases mitigation by 125 for Overland and 300 for Dungeon mobs.

The formula for calculating the % amount of Mitigation a mob has is: MITIGATION = [(Resistance - Armor Debuff) x (1 - % Penetration) - Flat Penetration] / 500
If we were considering PvP, the bottom number would by a 660 when facing a CP 160+ character.

Let's look at a Dungeon mob without any reduction in mitigation: 18200 / 500 = 36.4% mitigation
100 - 36.4% = 63.6% damage done
So if we attack this mob with a skill that has a tooltip of 10000, 36.4% of that incoming damage will be mitigated, meaning 63.6% of my 10000 will get through: 6360 actual damage done.

Now, in most cases, a PvE Magicka DPS player will be wearing at least 5 pieces of Light Armor. This allows access to the Concentration passive in the Light Armor skill tree, which grants 4884 Spell Penetration. Also, every character gets a free base 100 Spell/Weapon Penetration. So without any real investment into Spell Penetration, we can expect to have 4984 on hand.
(18200 - 4984) / 500 = 26.432% mitigation
100 - 26.432 = 73.568% damage done

We saw that with 0 Spell Penetration we do 63.6% of our potential damage, and with 4984 Spell Penetration we do 73.568% of our potential damage. Now you might think we should SUBTRACT the lower number from the higher to get the difference in damage we do: 73.568 - 63.6 = 9.968. But this is actually WRONG! What we really need to do is DIVIDE them: 73.568 / 63.6 = 1.1567. You can drop the 1 and move the decimal over 2 places to get your % increase: 15.67% damage increase.

Let's confirm this with our 10000 damage attack:
10000 x 0.636 = 6360
10000 x 0.73568 = 7356.8
7356.8 / 6360 = 15.67%

PENETRATION DAMAGE INCREASE
And here is where things get tricky. Since PvE mobs are level 50, that means that every 500 mitigation they have = 1% mitigation. So it would seem that if a mob has 5000 mitigation (10%) and I apply 5000 penetration, that should equal a 10% damage increase. However, this is actually not the case.
Including the added penetration:
(5000 - 5000) / 500 = 0
100 - 0 = 100
Excluding the added penetration:
5000 / 500 = 10
100 - 10 = 90
Dividing the results together:
100 / 90 = 11.11% damage increase

What about if the mob has 15000 mitigation (30%) and I apply 5000 penetration?
Including the added penetration:
(15000 - 5000) / 500 = 20
100 - 20 = 80
Excluding the added penetration:
15000 / 500 = 30
100 - 30 = 70
Dividing the results together:
80 / 70 = 14.28% damage increase

So there is a greater gain from Spell Penetration earlier in the process of penetrating, which diminishes the closer you get to fully penetrating the mob, though never falling below the % of that mob's remaining mitigation. The last 500 penetration applied would be worth about 1% more dps.

This chart represents how much more damage you would do to a PvE mob by adding penetration from an initial starting point (i.e. If you are already are at 75% penetration, you would gain 33.3% more damage by getting to 100% penetration, and would gain 20% more damage if you stopped at 90% penetration)

xNSmsQa.jpg

Although it is true that the benefit of increasing penetration diminishes, even the last 2500 penetration still amounts to a 5.2% damage increase. It therefore is worth trying to get as close to the penetration cap as possible, though the difference between 17700 penetration and 18200 will be rather negligible (1%, and less the closer you get).

METHODS OF GAINING SPELL PENETRATION
Since we want to be as close to the penetration cap as possible, without exceeding it, we need to consider the methods by which we can gain penetration for ourselves as well as how other members of our group can help us gain additional penetration. If we are playing solo, or with group members that are not providing any Spell Penetration buffs for us, it is in our interest to use as many means of gaining penetration as possible ourselves. If we are playing in a well coordinated group that provides many buffs to Spell Penetration, it will be much less important to spec into that stat. Therefore, HOW MUCH PENETRATION YOU NEED IS ENTIRELY SITUATION DEPENDENT!
Questing Oveland? You don't need to bother going over 9100 penetration unless you're going to take on some World Bosses.
Doing vMA? Get your penetration to 12.1k, it's the most you need before applying Ele Drain (which is only useful against casters).
Doing a Trial with a coordinated group? Check how much penetration will be provided for you.You may only need 9-10 points in Spell Erosion to hit the cap, and nothing else.

Here are all the different ways you can gain Spell Penetration:
- 100 Base Penetration
- 4884 Light Armor Passive (Concentration)
- 4196 (7 gold divines); 3577 (4 gold divines); 2752 (0 divines) Lover Mundus Stone
- 2752 Sharpened Weapon Trait (gold)
- 3450 Spinner's Garment 5th piece bonus (gold Light Armor)
- 3010 Roar of Alkosh 5th piece bonus (gold Medium Armor) - 10 sec duration on synergy activation
- 2741 (Infused+Torug's); 2108 (Infused); 1622 Crusher Enchant (gold)
- 5280 Major Breach - One Hand and Shield Ability: Pierce Armor (Morph of Puncture), Destruction Staff Ability: Weakness to Elements+Morphs, Nightblade Assassination Ability: Mark Target+Morphs, Warden Animal Companion Ability: Subterranean Assault (Morph of Scorch - AOE)
- 1320 Minor Breach - Templar Dawn's Wrath Ability: Power of the Light (STAMINA Morph of Backlash); Also available on some poisons, but uptime would not be very high
- 105-5280 Spell Erosion Champion Point Star

Since the Spell Erosion star is the easiest element to fine tune, we should save it for last in our decision making. Also, as with other Champion Point stars, it will give diminishing returns the more points we put in it, so we should probably not go far above 50 points (3960), at least not until the CP cap is around 900.

This chart shows a breakdown of different ways you could reach the Spell Penetration cap on Dungeon mobs (18200) in either solo or group environments. These are just a few hypothetical ways you could put the numbers together. Feel free to apply your own preferred combinations, or discuss with your regular group to determine what best suites your situation.

GIQV1Nf.jpg

SOLO (No Breach) - This would be for a situation where you were playing alone, perhaps completing an Undaunted Pledge solo and either didn't have room for Elemental Drain on your bars, or wanted to fully penetrate all mobs instead of just bosses (because you wouldn't be applying Ele Drain to every mob).

SOLO (Breach) - Similar situation as above but you are including Ele Drain on your bar. Or you are playing with other people and Major Breach is the only group penetration buff you are getting.

SOLO (No Sharp) - Similar to the situation just above, but you want to use a different weapon trait than Sharpened.

GROUP (Best Case) - This represents a fully optimized group that is able to have tanks running Alkosh and Infused+Torug's Crusher Enchant with nearly 100% uptime, as well as a Stam Templar keeping Minor Breach up.

GROUP (Consistent) - This represents a less optimized group. You have a tank running Infused+Torug's Crusher, which is pretty easy to keep up 100% on the boss, but you have no Alkosh or Minor Breach.

vMA RESISTANCE ANALYSIS:
Since vMA remains the only place in ESO that does not conform to universal Overland/Dungeon mitigation levels, and the previous analysis only tested physical mitigation, this is the full analysis including spell mitigation as well.

Arena 1 BOSS: 9.1k phys; 18.2k mag

Scamp: 18.2k phys; 18.2k mag
Flesh Atro: 18.2k phys, 12.1k mag
Clannfear: 12.1k phys; 12.1k mag
Seducer Knight: 12.1k phys; 12.1k mag
Daederoth: 12.1k phys, 12.1k mag
Bone Collosus: 12.1k phys, 12.1k mag
BOSS Adds: 12.1k phys; 12.1k mag
Seducer Darkbow: 9.1k phys; 18.2k mag
Seducer Darkfire: 9.1k phys; 18.2k mag

In the 2nd Arena couple of the mobs, such as the Dwermer Spiders only have 9.1k mag resist, but all other mobs in vMA have at least 12.1k mag resist.

The general premise seems to be that mobs that use magicka skills (and sometimes magical beings like Lamia Ghosts in Arena 3 or Lurchers in Arena 6, but not Fire Elementals or Lurcher Bosses in Arena 9) are more resistant to magicka, and vice versa with physical, while those that have a mix of both are in the middle. Since most mobs have 12.1k mag resist, speccing for that and then using Ele Drain on casters makes the most sense as a Magicka character. A similar (opposite) strategy could be taken for Stamina characters.

Assuming the other bosses have the same Phys Resist as the linked post...(someone else can double check if they want)

Arena 2 BOSS 12.1k phys; 12.1k mag
Arena 3 BOSS 12.1k phys; 12.1k mag
Arena 4 BOSS 18.2k phys; 12.1k mag
Arena 5 BOSS 12.1k phys; 12.1k mag
Arena 6 BOSS 9.1k phys; 18.2k mag -> (33.5k mag when enraged)
Arena 7 BOSS 18.2k phys; 12.1k mag
Arena 8 BOSS 18.2k phys; 0 mag (14.4% extra mag damage done during disorient phase, if this was a debuff on top of resistances then perhaps applying Ele Drain would make the damage increase higher, it's worth testing) Note: The 2`hand ult should be tested again during the disorient phase. My guess is it was originally tested when the boss was shielded.
Arena 9 BOSS 9.1k phys; 18.2k mag

Thanks for reading!
Edited by dpencil1 on October 16, 2018 12:04PM
  • Oreyn_Bearclaw
    Oreyn_Bearclaw
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    Thanks for this. I have been doing something similar on the stam side of things, trying to figure out what to wear in certain scenarios. The biggest question I had was regarding diminished returns as you get close to the pen cap, and this clears it up nicely.

    I would love to see the same thing for stam, as it is argubly more relevant now that raids are back to 50/50 magic/stam and since stam users are more likely going to coordinate sets than magic.

    Our group has found that you can keep Sunder and NM up nearly 100% (sunder is about 99 and NM is about 96). PotL seems to be in the low to mid 80s, and alkosh, never seems to be much over about 60. It is certainly powerful, but I would like to get away from Alkosh as a 60% uptime is hard to rely on.

    Thanks for the math as always.
    Alliance/Platform: Ebonheart Pact - PC/NA - CP 1,200ish

    My Toons:
    DKs: Oreyn ßearclaw - Dunmer, Bear-m'Athra - Redguard, Bearzilla - Argonian
    Sorcs: Beary Jane - AR37- Breton, Bearricane - Orc, Molag Bear - Altmer (AD)
    NBs: Bearclaw Oreyn - Breton, Bearblade - Bosmer, ßearblade - Dunmer (DC)
    Temps: Gandalf Likes To Party - Altmer, Bearplar - Redguard, Bearamedic - Argonian
    Wardens: Warden Bearclaw - Altmer, Bear Jordan - Redguard, Bear's Hippie Girlfriend - Bosmer
    Necros: Bearomancer - Dunmer, ßearßones - Orc

    vCR+3, vAS+2, vHOFHM, vMOLHM, vSOHM, vHRCHM, vAAHM, vBRP, vDSA, Flawless Conqueror, Dro-m'Athra Destroyer
  • dpencil1
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    @Oreyn_Bearclaw
    Yeah, I'm not a Stam player myself, so I just don't feel as comfortable discussing it. That said, a couple other places you can mess with penetration buffs for both Stam and Mag are:
    http://asayre.mygamesonline.org/HoTRoptimisation/CPOptimisation.html#
    http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildEditor

    You could also use the chart I used at the bottom of the OP and just insert the values of the Stam sets you're interested in.
    Edited by dpencil1 on August 25, 2017 9:06PM
  • Oreyn_Bearclaw
    Oreyn_Bearclaw
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    Yeah, I made a very similar excel sheet just for adding penetration. I had no idea regarding the actual math behind penetration/mitigation values or the diminishing returns, so that was definitely insightful.
    Alliance/Platform: Ebonheart Pact - PC/NA - CP 1,200ish

    My Toons:
    DKs: Oreyn ßearclaw - Dunmer, Bear-m'Athra - Redguard, Bearzilla - Argonian
    Sorcs: Beary Jane - AR37- Breton, Bearricane - Orc, Molag Bear - Altmer (AD)
    NBs: Bearclaw Oreyn - Breton, Bearblade - Bosmer, ßearblade - Dunmer (DC)
    Temps: Gandalf Likes To Party - Altmer, Bearplar - Redguard, Bearamedic - Argonian
    Wardens: Warden Bearclaw - Altmer, Bear Jordan - Redguard, Bear's Hippie Girlfriend - Bosmer
    Necros: Bearomancer - Dunmer, ßearßones - Orc

    vCR+3, vAS+2, vHOFHM, vMOLHM, vSOHM, vHRCHM, vAAHM, vBRP, vDSA, Flawless Conqueror, Dro-m'Athra Destroyer
  • paulsimonps
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    Yeah, I made a very similar excel sheet just for adding penetration. I had no idea regarding the actual math behind penetration/mitigation values or the diminishing returns, so that was definitely insightful.

    I didn't know about that either, but good to know the damage increase was higher than we thought and not lower, and it still never goes below mitigation reduced. So at the very least 500 penetration is 1% or higher in damage increase.
  • Vaoh
    Vaoh
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    Great info as always! Ty @dpencil1
  • Masel
    Masel
    Class Representative
    I will add a similar stamina based calculation to this thread within the next two days if that's okay for you :)
    Edited by Masel on August 26, 2017 10:09AM
    PC EU - CP 1200+ All trials + HM

    Intis Ravelen - Stamina Nightblade - Redguard - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Annisca Micus - Magicka Sorcerer - High Elf - DD - Flawless Conqueror & Voice of Reason
    Shéogórath - Stamina Dragonknight - Imperial - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Pilar Joranil - Magicka Dragonknight - High Elf - DD - Flawless Conqueror -
    Adeline Du Mont - Magicka Templar - High Elf - Healer & DD - Flawless Conqueror & Voice of Reason + Bringer of Light
    Olivia Thaloran - Magicka Nightblade - Dunmer - DD - Flawless Conqueror & Dro'mathra Destroyer & Voice of Reason
    Pu'jarr Ticklebeard - Stamina Sorcerer - Khajiit - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Treehugger Joe - Magicka Warden - High Elf - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Stuga Beluga - Stamina Templar - Orc - DD - Flawless Conqueror & Dro'mathra Destroyer
    Anna Terra - Stamina Warden - Redguard - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Wamasel - Dragonknight - Argonian - Tank - Flawless Conqueror + Bringer of Light
    Nord Warden - Warden - Nord - Tank - Flawless Conqueror

    Youtube:
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChVEG6ckuAgGs5OyA6VeisA
  • Masel
    Masel
    Class Representative
    Thanks for this. I have been doing something similar on the stam side of things, trying to figure out what to wear in certain scenarios. The biggest question I had was regarding diminished returns as you get close to the pen cap, and this clears it up nicely.

    I would love to see the same thing for stam, as it is argubly more relevant now that raids are back to 50/50 magic/stam and since stam users are more likely going to coordinate sets than magic.

    Our group has found that you can keep Sunder and NM up nearly 100% (sunder is about 99 and NM is about 96). PotL seems to be in the low to mid 80s, and alkosh, never seems to be much over about 60. It is certainly powerful, but I would like to get away from Alkosh as a 60% uptime is hard to rely on.

    Thanks for the math as always.

    I'd also rather go for an infused torugs crusher, a lot more controllable and reliable as a debuff than alkosh...
    PC EU - CP 1200+ All trials + HM

    Intis Ravelen - Stamina Nightblade - Redguard - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Annisca Micus - Magicka Sorcerer - High Elf - DD - Flawless Conqueror & Voice of Reason
    Shéogórath - Stamina Dragonknight - Imperial - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Pilar Joranil - Magicka Dragonknight - High Elf - DD - Flawless Conqueror -
    Adeline Du Mont - Magicka Templar - High Elf - Healer & DD - Flawless Conqueror & Voice of Reason + Bringer of Light
    Olivia Thaloran - Magicka Nightblade - Dunmer - DD - Flawless Conqueror & Dro'mathra Destroyer & Voice of Reason
    Pu'jarr Ticklebeard - Stamina Sorcerer - Khajiit - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Treehugger Joe - Magicka Warden - High Elf - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Stuga Beluga - Stamina Templar - Orc - DD - Flawless Conqueror & Dro'mathra Destroyer
    Anna Terra - Stamina Warden - Redguard - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Wamasel - Dragonknight - Argonian - Tank - Flawless Conqueror + Bringer of Light
    Nord Warden - Warden - Nord - Tank - Flawless Conqueror

    Youtube:
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChVEG6ckuAgGs5OyA6VeisA
  • paulsimonps
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    Masel92 wrote: »
    Thanks for this. I have been doing something similar on the stam side of things, trying to figure out what to wear in certain scenarios. The biggest question I had was regarding diminished returns as you get close to the pen cap, and this clears it up nicely.

    I would love to see the same thing for stam, as it is argubly more relevant now that raids are back to 50/50 magic/stam and since stam users are more likely going to coordinate sets than magic.

    Our group has found that you can keep Sunder and NM up nearly 100% (sunder is about 99 and NM is about 96). PotL seems to be in the low to mid 80s, and alkosh, never seems to be much over about 60. It is certainly powerful, but I would like to get away from Alkosh as a 60% uptime is hard to rely on.

    Thanks for the math as always.

    I'd also rather go for an infused torugs crusher, a lot more controllable and reliable as a debuff than alkosh...

    As a Tank I 100% agree. Makes my job way fricking easier too.
  • Dasovaruilos
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    Thanks for this! Me and my guild were just discussing this in preparation for HotR (we are console peasants).

    One of the things I suggested was for our tanks to switch from Alkosh to Torug's because it is more reliable, specially since we are still learning some fights. But the tanks guaranteed that they can keep Alkosh "easily" between 75% to 100% in most boss fights in trials.

    I'm very skeptical about this, but since we don't have combat metrics, there is no way to objectively see it.

    With HotR, what are the Alkosh uptimes you are seeing in Craglorn trials and Maw? Can Alkosh really be up 75% to 100% of the time to be better than Torug's always, even with a newer group?
    Edited by Dasovaruilos on August 26, 2017 11:14AM
  • paulsimonps
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    CalmFury wrote: »
    Thanks for this! Me and my guild were just discussing this in preparation for HotR (we are console peasants).

    One of the things I suggested was for our tanks to switch from Alkosh to Torug's because it is more reliable, specially since we are still learning some fights. But the tanks guaranteed that they can keep Alkosh "easily" between 75% to 100% in most boss fights in trials.

    I'm very skeptical about this, but since we don't have combat metrics, there is no way to objectively see it.

    With HotR, what are the Alkosh uptimes you are seeing in Craglorn trials and Maw? Can Alkosh really be up 75% to 100% of the time to be better than Torug's always, even with a newer group?

    That is incredibly difficult to do. I mean technically you just need 2 synergies to get 100% up time but that is almost impossible. Synergies are extremely wonky and won't work most of the time. But most groups do have a constant flow of at least 3 different ones, with Purify, Shards/Orbs and conduit from liquid lightning. But if you don't wait 10 ish seconds between every synergy, always, then the up time goes down the drain. Basically you have to use them almost directly off cooldown. Not a very likely event, even more so without addons to track it all. I would very much so doubt the words of that tank.
  • bloodthirstyvampire
    bloodthirstyvampire
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    Is there a short version
    Hello There, I'm banned from the forums permanently for baiting so i'll talk to you here, Zos want me to do a 400 word essey on baiting (I disagree with it to be fair, I was not baiting), honestly tho I've had a toooon of chances, so I can only blame my self.
  • dpencil1
    dpencil1
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    @bloodthirstyvampire
    Penetration is good, but not something you always have to provide for yourself. So understand how much penetration you are getting from others, then use various ways to get enough penetration yourself to hit the 18200 cap, or close to it.
  • danno8
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    In your chart example you give the numbers for a starting point of 75% penetration, and the difference in damage from going from 75% to 90% compared to 75% to 100%.

    The numbers are 33% and 20%, not 33% and 12.5%, according to the graph.
  • bloodthirstyvampire
    bloodthirstyvampire
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    dpencil1 wrote: »
    @bloodthirstyvampire
    Penetration is good, but not something you always have to provide for yourself. So understand how much penetration you are getting from others, then use various ways to get enough penetration yourself to hit the 18200 cap, or close to it.

    Thank you very much super helpful
    Hello There, I'm banned from the forums permanently for baiting so i'll talk to you here, Zos want me to do a 400 word essey on baiting (I disagree with it to be fair, I was not baiting), honestly tho I've had a toooon of chances, so I can only blame my self.
  • lillybit
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    Your maths baffles and confuses me - I'm very glad someone is thinking about these things so I don't have to! :D
    PS4 EU
  • dpencil1
    dpencil1
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    @danno8
    Thanks for catching the typo. OP corrected.
  • zaria
    zaria
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    Is there a short version
    Short version is the table at bottom. With sharpened weapon it looks like you want 26-27 points into penetration for pug runs.
    Not sharpened weapon and you want up to 46
    For trials you want less as more buffs and debuffs are up.
    Grinding just make you go in circles.
    Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.
  • Darkmage1337
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    Are there any Add-Ons on ESOUI/Minion that show the total Physical & Spell Penetration stat values on your character menu? (Specifically, add-ons take take into account and calculate all gear, passives, champion points, and active buffs.)

    By default, we get Max Health/Magicka/Stamina, their respective recoveries, Damage, Crit, and Resistances; however, we do not get a default penetration / mitigation stat value.

    For example, the add-ons Harven's Extended Stats and/or MitigationPercent come close to providing this on the in-game Character Stat Menu screen ("C"), but do not show a value of 9,000 - 18,000 Physical and/or Spell Penetration/Mitigation, or what have you.

    ---

    In my particular case, I am currently on my Mag-NB character wearing 5+ light armor for 4,884 spell penetration, with 2 gold swords equipped (on both bars) for 1,376 penetration each (2,752 penetration together), and 35 champion points slotted into Spell Erosion CP-tree for 3,049 spell penetration.
    Between these 3 values alone, my spell penetration reaches 10,685.
    With Piercing Mark (Major Breach), my spell penetration/mitigation reaches 15,965 (5,280 + 10,685).

    I am not currently using The Lover penetration mundus stone nor am I using Infused/Torug's Pact.
    This particular character is a pvp-focused MagNB bomb-blade build with 2/2 Divines Molag Kena (2 Gold [Head & Shoulders]), 5/5 War Maiden (5 Impen Purple [Body Pieces]), 5/5 Vicious Death (5 Gold [Weapons & Jewelry]).
    Other stats include 39,736 Max Magicka, 1,432 Magicka Recovery (Witchmother's Potent Brew, purple food).
    61.5% Spell Crit, while using The Thief mundus stone. And 2,265 Crit Resist. (This is a pvp focus build, after all.) However, I can switch to a 5/5 Julianos and 5/5 Mother's Sorrow for more of a PvE/Crit-build focus.

    I have 2,476 current 'base' Spell Damage ony my character stats, this excludes the bonuses from War Maiden's 5/5 spell damage set bonus, and excludes Molag Kena's 2/2 Overkill spell damage set bonus proc.
    With these bonuses, 386 spell damage is added to my "magicka-based" damage abilities (War Maiden 5/5), plus 516 spell damage with Molag Kena's 2/2 Overkill while proc'd. So, 2,476 + 386 + 518 = 3,873.
    And, with Structured Entropy active (for Major Sorcery, as Mag-NB), this brings my character-stat Spell Damage visual to 4,008. (The 20% bonus increase doesn't factor in set bonuses like War Maiden, I guess?) Or, it's just hidden... Idk.

    I typically proc Structured Entropy/Major Sorcery first, then do 2 light attacks for Molag Kena's proc after (since Structured Entropy lasts 20 seconds and Molag Kena/Overkill lasts 6 seconds). This will show the 4,008 spell damage value.

    Bar 1: Impale, Concealed Weapon, Lotus Fan, Structured Entropy, Inner Light. Ultimate: Soul Tether.
    Bar 2: Proximity detonation, Mass Hysteria, Double Take, Shadowy Disguise, Inner Light. Ultimate: Soul Assault.

    ---

    Any thoughts/comments/suggestions? :smiley:

    Sorry for the Long Wall. :blush:
    Edited by Darkmage1337 on August 26, 2017 8:44PM
    GM of Absolute Virtue. Co-GM of Absolute Vice.
    6-time Former Emperor, out of 12 characters. CP: 1,100+
    3 Templars, 3 Sorcerers, 2 Nightblades, 2 Dragonknights, 1 Warden. 1 Necromancer.
    The Ebonheart Pact: The Dark-Mage (Former Emperor), The Undying Nightshade, The Moonlit-Knight, The Killionaire (Former Emperor), Swims-Among-Slaughterfish (Former Emperor), The Undead Mage
    The Aldmeri Dominion: The Dawn-Bringer (Former Empress), The Ironwood Kid (Former Emperor), The Storm-Sword
    The Daggerfall Covenant: The Storm-Shield (Former Empress), The Savage-Beast, The Burning-Crusader
    ESO subscriber since launch. ESO Platform/Server: PC/NA.
  • dpencil1
    dpencil1
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    @Darkmage1337
    I believe Harven's Extended Stats has a listed value for Spell Pen and Physical Pen. Off the top of my head, that's what I have. I don't have the % one, so maybe that changes it. No addon would show your total with debuffs applied, as the values of buffs to you and debuffs to the enemy are different.

    For PvP, it depends on the kinds of targets you are hitting. Light armor casters are going to have maybe 11-12k resistance while Heavy tanky builds may have up to 30k resistance. It's really up to you how much you want to spec into penetrarion.
  • hedna123b14_ESO
    hedna123b14_ESO
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    All of this information and more has been available for over a year in Asayre's post.

    http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/introduction-to-pve-damage-calculation-homestead/

    Damage calculations, resistance calculations, stat pool calculations, penetration and more.
  • Darkmage1337
    Darkmage1337
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    dpencil1 wrote: »
    @Darkmage1337
    I believe Harven's Extended Stats has a listed value for Spell Pen and Physical Pen. Off the top of my head, that's what I have. I don't have the % one, so maybe that changes it. No addon would show your total with debuffs applied, as the values of buffs to you and debuffs to the enemy are different.

    For PvP, it depends on the kinds of targets you are hitting. Light armor casters are going to have maybe 11-12k resistance while Heavy tanky builds may have up to 30k resistance. It's really up to you how much you want to spec into penetrarion.

    Thanks, I'll have to check it out. I didn't see any Mitigation values listed from the add-on's posted screenshots, but I guess I'll have to download it to test it out and see.
    I decided to add a bit more champion points into Spell Erosion, from 35 to 65 champion points. 3,049 to 4,633 difference in values. I also have:
    30 into Elfborn at 12.78%, 65 into Elemental Expert at 13.12% (160 total in Apprentice).
    30 into Master-at-Arms under Atronach, and 30 into Thaumaturge under The Ritual.
    GM of Absolute Virtue. Co-GM of Absolute Vice.
    6-time Former Emperor, out of 12 characters. CP: 1,100+
    3 Templars, 3 Sorcerers, 2 Nightblades, 2 Dragonknights, 1 Warden. 1 Necromancer.
    The Ebonheart Pact: The Dark-Mage (Former Emperor), The Undying Nightshade, The Moonlit-Knight, The Killionaire (Former Emperor), Swims-Among-Slaughterfish (Former Emperor), The Undead Mage
    The Aldmeri Dominion: The Dawn-Bringer (Former Empress), The Ironwood Kid (Former Emperor), The Storm-Sword
    The Daggerfall Covenant: The Storm-Shield (Former Empress), The Savage-Beast, The Burning-Crusader
    ESO subscriber since launch. ESO Platform/Server: PC/NA.
  • SodanTok
    SodanTok
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    ✭✭
    dpencil1 wrote: »
    @Darkmage1337
    I believe Harven's Extended Stats has a listed value for Spell Pen and Physical Pen. Off the top of my head, that's what I have. I don't have the % one, so maybe that changes it. No addon would show your total with debuffs applied, as the values of buffs to you and debuffs to the enemy are different.

    For PvP, it depends on the kinds of targets you are hitting. Light armor casters are going to have maybe 11-12k resistance while Heavy tanky builds may have up to 30k resistance. It's really up to you how much you want to spec into penetrarion.

    Thanks, I'll have to check it out. I didn't see any Mitigation values listed from the add-on's posted screenshots, but I guess I'll have to download it to test it out and see.
    I decided to add a bit more champion points into Spell Erosion, from 35 to 65 champion points. 3,049 to 4,633 difference in values. I also have:
    30 into Elfborn at 12.78%, 65 into Elemental Expert at 13.12% (160 total in Apprentice).
    30 into Master-at-Arms under Atronach, and 30 into Thaumaturge under The Ritual.

    Dont waste too much on penetration in PVP. You know how much dmg you got from putting another 30 cp in erosion? Just ~3% more damage vs the tankiest of builds, ~2.5% against average and nothing against nearly all light armor builds. You could quickly notice putting all these points in elemental expert (tbh 65 in expert is too much already, but that is just personal taste) somewhere else will give you much more.

    Also respect the jump points. 12.78% from elfborn is 12%. Thats goes for all other points you put there. Anything from 12.000000001% to 13% will be just 12%




    btw @dpencil1
    "Doing vMA? Get your penetration as close to 18200 as you can by yourself." is not good advice. Having over ~12k penetration in VMA is useless in all but 3 zones if I remember correctly (I think mobs have 9k,12k, or 18k depending on zone)
    Maybe not 'useless' per say, but there are more needed stats than penetration against third of the content
    Edited by SodanTok on August 26, 2017 11:31PM
    PC | EU | AD
  • dpencil1
    dpencil1
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    @hedna123b14_ESO
    Indeed. I've studied that thread many times. I stated at the outset that I wasn't really presenting new data, but different teachers teach in different ways and Asayre's attention on Mitigation was only a small part of his larger project. My hope was to help others understand the concept perhaps more clearly than they had before by presenting it in a little different and more topically focused manner.

    @Darkmage1337
    Sounds good. I would be wary of putting more than 50 points into Spell Erosion unless you can happily spare them, as the diminishing returns on points really ramp up around there. And yes, do make sure you observe jump points for percent amps. They always round down.

    @SodanTok
    Sorry, I guess I missed that info. I thought that all mobs in vMA were 18200 except a couple bosses that were 18500. Can you link the patch note or other source that you got your data from?
  • Darkmage1337
    Darkmage1337
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    Thanks guys, I didn't know about the percent-of-a-percent rounding thing! I better go adjust all 8/8 characters now. :tired_face:
    Points looked nicer when they were even 30s, 40s, and 50s into a given category, all around, lol..
    GM of Absolute Virtue. Co-GM of Absolute Vice.
    6-time Former Emperor, out of 12 characters. CP: 1,100+
    3 Templars, 3 Sorcerers, 2 Nightblades, 2 Dragonknights, 1 Warden. 1 Necromancer.
    The Ebonheart Pact: The Dark-Mage (Former Emperor), The Undying Nightshade, The Moonlit-Knight, The Killionaire (Former Emperor), Swims-Among-Slaughterfish (Former Emperor), The Undead Mage
    The Aldmeri Dominion: The Dawn-Bringer (Former Empress), The Ironwood Kid (Former Emperor), The Storm-Sword
    The Daggerfall Covenant: The Storm-Shield (Former Empress), The Savage-Beast, The Burning-Crusader
    ESO subscriber since launch. ESO Platform/Server: PC/NA.
  • witchdoctor
    witchdoctor
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    @Darkmage1337

    Another addon, which I use is My Build Continued: http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info1525-MyBuildContinued.html

    And, just in case you needed a jump point list, here is the one I use: https://alcasthq.com/eso-championpoints-jumppoints/
  • witchdoctor
    witchdoctor
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    @dpencil1

    Thank for this, and your other recent threads. I've been working on my magPlar, and this has all been useful. Its primary end-game role is healer, but when solo I need it to be a competent DPS as well. Your threads have helped me work out some off-spec DPS gear and CP setups.
  • SodanTok
    SodanTok
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    ✭✭
    dpencil1 wrote: »
    Sorry, I guess I missed that info. I thought that all mobs in vMA were 18200 except a couple bosses that were 18500. Can you link the patch note or other source that you got your data from?

    If I am not mistaken there was no patch for VMA, which is a reason why it is this way and not the standard way
    Back then, when the resistances were standardised (and VMA left out) someone tested it and I havent seen mention of anything changing since (link)



    Edited by SodanTok on August 27, 2017 11:40AM
    PC | EU | AD
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