DirectX 12? Is that true? Also, let's talk about the game engine's performance...

Joffi

Octopuss wrote: »

laced wrote: »

My question is why is the connection always 50 ms or higher when the datacenter is in germany, and I live super close to it, yet on swtor I have only 20 ms O.o

Please read the thread title.

"Also, let's talk about the game engine's performance..."

The very, very poor base latency speaks directly to the game engine performance, both server and client side.

Sneaky-Snurr

Everyone has to realise that ESO was developed waaay back so the game is using a game engine that's nearly a decade old which means the application cannot utilise quad core processors properly and to a certain extent, not even dual core.
It's not a problem with your hardware but rather, the game code itself.

danno8

tplink3r1 wrote: »

Asgari wrote: »

Tonnopesce wrote: »

I have a tiny i5 7600k (oc at 4.5 gz rock solid) a gtx 780ti and 8 gig of ram and pve side in ultra I'm at 100-120 fps, pvp usually 50-60 in battlegrounds and 40-50 in cyro.
The issue is probably on your side, a bottkeneck somewhere.

That is not true. In some rare cases it can be because of the users system. In most cases however the low fps is from ZOS poor preforming servers. i7-6700k, gtx1080, 32gb ram, every OC and running watter cooled and in Cyro FPS still dips into the 30s.

On top of that have fios gigabit fiber internet.

Can you please prove that the server affects the client fps?

Go to Cyrodiil, stare at a wall, have a zerg come by and watch your FPS fall even though you are not rendering any of the action.

GrimClaw

Look here for comparsion how bad a 3770K can get, even if you run it same clocks as 7700K:
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2017-intel-kaby-lake-core-i7-7700k-review

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbGT-u4i3EY

You will lose up to 30-40 FPS if your machine gets CPU limited. And ESO will limit your CPU to mostly 1 Core.
Good news, you can keep your GPU, it's half sleeping anyway. Can run 4K resolution with mit GTX970 without losing FPS due to the CPU bottleneck.

tplink3r1

danno8 wrote: »

tplink3r1 wrote: »

Asgari wrote: »

Tonnopesce wrote: »

I have a tiny i5 7600k (oc at 4.5 gz rock solid) a gtx 780ti and 8 gig of ram and pve side in ultra I'm at 100-120 fps, pvp usually 50-60 in battlegrounds and 40-50 in cyro.
The issue is probably on your side, a bottkeneck somewhere.

That is not true. In some rare cases it can be because of the users system. In most cases however the low fps is from ZOS poor preforming servers. i7-6700k, gtx1080, 32gb ram, every OC and running watter cooled and in Cyro FPS still dips into the 30s.

On top of that have fios gigabit fiber internet.

Can you please prove that the server affects the client fps?

Go to Cyrodiil, stare at a wall, have a zerg come by and watch your FPS fall even though you are not rendering any of the action.

By staring at a wall your game is still processing most things around you, otherwise you would see textures and many other things loading when you move the screen.
It doesn't prove anything.

Ulfgarde

danno8 wrote: »

tplink3r1 wrote: »

Asgari wrote: »

Tonnopesce wrote: »

I have a tiny i5 7600k (oc at 4.5 gz rock solid) a gtx 780ti and 8 gig of ram and pve side in ultra I'm at 100-120 fps, pvp usually 50-60 in battlegrounds and 40-50 in cyro.
The issue is probably on your side, a bottkeneck somewhere.

That is not true. In some rare cases it can be because of the users system. In most cases however the low fps is from ZOS poor preforming servers. i7-6700k, gtx1080, 32gb ram, every OC and running watter cooled and in Cyro FPS still dips into the 30s.

On top of that have fios gigabit fiber internet.

Can you please prove that the server affects the client fps?

Go to Cyrodiil, stare at a wall, have a zerg come by and watch your FPS fall even though you are not rendering any of the action.

I think he meant high ping (i.e. 300+ ping) and not zergs. Zergs are CPU intensive and it relies on how fast your CPU can calculate every single action. It has nothing to do with the server, only that it has to process it. Server performance cannot affect the client-side FPS.

Joffi wrote: »

Octopuss wrote: »

laced wrote: »

My question is why is the connection always 50 ms or higher when the datacenter is in germany, and I live super close to it, yet on swtor I have only 20 ms O.o

Please read the thread title.

"Also, let's talk about the game engine's performance..."

The very, very poor base latency speaks directly to the game engine performance, both server and client side.

Game engine has little to do with latency. I think OP is referring to client-side performance, which is affected by hardware, in which the game has notorious optimization issues with hyperthreading and dealing with multi-core systems. Latency has little to do with it since TPS =/= FPS. It's the game code itself when considering client-side performance and fps, not the server.

Jade1986

Octopuss wrote: »

laced wrote: »

My question is why is the connection always 50 ms or higher when the datacenter is in germany, and I live super close to it, yet on swtor I have only 20 ms O.o

Please read the thread title.

Well arent you a ray of sunshine.

Did you even read my next post, directly under my first post? Clearly not.

tplink3r1

(deleted)

Tandor

Asgari wrote: »

Tonnopesce wrote: »

I have a tiny i5 7600k (oc at 4.5 gz rock solid) a gtx 780ti and 8 gig of ram and pve side in ultra I'm at 100-120 fps, pvp usually 50-60 in battlegrounds and 40-50 in cyro.
The issue is probably on your side, a bottkeneck somewhere.

That is not true. In some rare cases it can be because of the users system. In most cases however the low fps is from ZOS poor preforming servers. i7-6700k, gtx1080, 32gb ram, every OC and running watter cooled and in Cyro FPS still dips into the 30s.

On top of that have fios gigabit fiber internet.

All of which counts for nothing if your ISP's internet traffic is being throttled somewhere between you and the server. There is a lot of evidence that the NA server players are being hit by networking issues that don't affect the EU server players.

I do agree that some optimisation would be desirable especially where multi-core support is concerned, but it's unlikely that DX12 is going to provide the panacea that some players expect it to - not least because Windows 10 is probably another source of the problems in the first place and that's the only system it will run on. Given its continued under-performance in the market why would developers throw too much investment into an upgrade that was dependent on people using it?

majulook

ESO was updated to use DX11 in March of 2016, it took quite a bit of work for them to get this done. They informed players that they were doing it for at least 6 months prior to the update (maybe it was a year).

They have data on what OS players are using and IMHO an update DX12 will not happen for at least 2 years.

Reasons for is that it's not a "hard" thing, it's a "time consuming" thing, it's not like "hey DX12 is out, let's burn 3 hours of coding and patch the game to it", it's more on the lines of "Let's remake the entire code of the engine".

Octopuss

I think significantly better performance would make me upgrade to Windows 10 for ESO. I tried the OS twice and always went back to Windows 7.

Some of the replies here are very wrong. The games does use more than one core - there's even a setting in userpreferences.txt that's set to 6 by default, but... it doesn't seem to work too well.

sdtlc

If still running on Windows 7 check this: tech-recipes.com/rx/16720/enable-multiple-cores-on-windows-7/

And there's no DX12 support for Windows 7.

Octopuss

I know that. That's why I mentioned Windows 10.
Any guides about messing around with core parking, core unlocking, or anything is snake oil, basically. This stuff is best left alone. It works perfectly fine.

twev

majulook wrote: »

ESO was updated to use DX11 in March of 2016, it took quite a bit of work for them to get this done. They informed players that they were doing it for at least 6 months prior to the update (maybe it was a year).

They have data on what OS players are using and IMHO an update DX12 will not happen for at least 2 years.

Reasons for is that it's not a "hard" thing, it's a "time consuming" thing, it's not like "hey DX12 is out, let's burn 3 hours of coding and patch the game to it", it's more on the lines of "Let's remake the entire code of the engine".

Be nice if they incorporated hyper-threading in either first, or at the same time.

This is a nice game, but it's going to be left behind in the dirt when players grow weary of the tired performance compared to stuff written to run better on newer stuff.

The players money goes where the whizzbang is, and this game is going to be a comparative fizzle, soon, if they keep lagging on improving the code.
Junk in the crown store can only woo the window-shoppers for just so long.

Octopuss wrote: »

I think significantly better performance would make me upgrade to Windows 10 for ESO. I tried the OS twice and always went back to Windows 7.

Some of the replies here are very wrong. The games does use more than one core - there's even a setting in userpreferences.txt that's set to 6 by default, but... it doesn't seem to work too well.

From what I understand:
The dabbling they did with hyper-threading was more smoke/mirrors than substance, and not much was ever coded to actually use a second core, so it's mostly all still jammed into the one.

I don't see the allure of Win10 bloat.
It's still got old Win 3.1 under it's Win95 petticoats, and the MS engineers always relied on improvements like bigger HDDs, more ram, and faster CPU/ram speed to handle all the unoptimized code they never bothered to update.

randomkeyhits

If they did a DX12 client are they going to keep the older one running as well or abandon all win 7 and win 8 users? Can't really see that happening.

Better option would be to go down the Vulkan route which at least works on older Win machines as well.

Octopuss

Vulkan would be great. It's platform-independent I believe, so the game could probably work natively under Linux then. It's not that simple though.
Oh and it would also work in Windows 7.

tplink3r1

Tandor wrote: »

Asgari wrote: »

Tonnopesce wrote: »

I have a tiny i5 7600k (oc at 4.5 gz rock solid) a gtx 780ti and 8 gig of ram and pve side in ultra I'm at 100-120 fps, pvp usually 50-60 in battlegrounds and 40-50 in cyro.
The issue is probably on your side, a bottkeneck somewhere.

That is not true. In some rare cases it can be because of the users system. In most cases however the low fps is from ZOS poor preforming servers. i7-6700k, gtx1080, 32gb ram, every OC and running watter cooled and in Cyro FPS still dips into the 30s.

On top of that have fios gigabit fiber internet.

All of which counts for nothing if your ISP's internet traffic is being throttled somewhere between you and the server. There is a lot of evidence that the NA server players are being hit by networking issues that don't affect the EU server players.

I do agree that some optimisation would be desirable especially where multi-core support is concerned, but it's unlikely that DX12 is going to provide the panacea that some players expect it to - not least because Windows 10 is probably another source of the problems in the first place and that's the only system it will run on. Given its continued under-performance in the market why would developers throw too much investment into an upgrade that was dependent on people using it?

You are the third here who suggested that the server affects the client FPS. Please, post proof of that.

Bonzodog01

The main problem this game has is that its running all on a single thread, meaning its effectively only doing ALL its tasks through just a single core or anyones CPU. Whether you have an i3, i5, or even an i7 is going to make very little difference at the end of the day because this game is unable to actually use any of that power.

The engine that the game uses was originally based on the Hero engine, but 90% of the code from that got scrapped, and they coded their own engine that still behaves just as poorly.

Tandor

tplink3r1 wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Asgari wrote: »

Tonnopesce wrote: »

I have a tiny i5 7600k (oc at 4.5 gz rock solid) a gtx 780ti and 8 gig of ram and pve side in ultra I'm at 100-120 fps, pvp usually 50-60 in battlegrounds and 40-50 in cyro.
The issue is probably on your side, a bottkeneck somewhere.

That is not true. In some rare cases it can be because of the users system. In most cases however the low fps is from ZOS poor preforming servers. i7-6700k, gtx1080, 32gb ram, every OC and running watter cooled and in Cyro FPS still dips into the 30s.

On top of that have fios gigabit fiber internet.

All of which counts for nothing if your ISP's internet traffic is being throttled somewhere between you and the server. There is a lot of evidence that the NA server players are being hit by networking issues that don't affect the EU server players.

I do agree that some optimisation would be desirable especially where multi-core support is concerned, but it's unlikely that DX12 is going to provide the panacea that some players expect it to - not least because Windows 10 is probably another source of the problems in the first place and that's the only system it will run on. Given its continued under-performance in the market why would developers throw too much investment into an upgrade that was dependent on people using it?

You are the third here who suggested that the server affects the client FPS. Please, post proof of that.

I never said that. Read what I said more carefully.

Kanar

Bonzodog01 wrote: »

The main problem this game has is that its running all on a single thread, meaning its effectively only doing ALL its tasks through just a single core or anyones CPU. Whether you have an i3, i5, or even an i7 is going to make very little difference at the end of the day because this game is unable to actually use any of that power.

That's an exaggeration. It uses multiple cores but it does do a lot of work in its main thread. This is a common issue with MMOs (being CPU bound on the main thread), not just ESO. In fact most games have this problem, that's why a 4 core i5 is as good (or better) as an 8 core i7 or ryzen.

In order to fix this the client would need to be redesigned from the ground up using the latest design principles. Even then it would be a large challenge to get the workload spread out over threads without butchering performance through overuse of synchronization objects. Never gonna happen in ESO's lifetime, just get a 4+ core CPU with best possible single thread performance.

JasonSilverSpring

majulook wrote: »

ESO was updated to use DX11 in March of 2016, it took quite a bit of work for them to get this done. They informed players that they were doing it for at least 6 months prior to the update (maybe it was a year).

They have data on what OS players are using and IMHO an update DX12 will not happen for at least 2 years.

Reasons for is that it's not a "hard" thing, it's a "time consuming" thing, it's not like "hey DX12 is out, let's burn 3 hours of coding and patch the game to it", it's more on the lines of "Let's remake the entire code of the engine".

ESO supported DX 11 from the beginning, but it also supported DX 9. They removed support for DX 9 though.

I agree that making real use of DX 12 would require significant work.

Octopuss

JasonSilverSpring wrote: »

ESO supported DX 11 from the beginning, but it also supported DX 9. They removed support for DX 9 though.

I agree that making real use of DX 12 would require significant work.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/245011/pts-patch-notes-v2-3-0/p1
This implies it wasn't Dx11 before.

ascottk

Personally I think it all comes down to artwork & the resources they use. I've seen plenty of meshes & textures that are not properly optimized all over the place... Vivec City staircase for instance.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4419487#Comment_4419487

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/365741/bug-models-not-loading-properly-most-of-the-time-in-belkarth-xbox#latest

You can take a crappy engine & make it run smooth with properly designed artwork... but... there are limits like the Flesh Engine that: Thief Deadly Shadows & Deus Ex: Invisible War. Open world engines with a terrain system need better use of LODs and mipmaps.

danno8

tplink3r1 wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

tplink3r1 wrote: »

Asgari wrote: »

Tonnopesce wrote: »

I have a tiny i5 7600k (oc at 4.5 gz rock solid) a gtx 780ti and 8 gig of ram and pve side in ultra I'm at 100-120 fps, pvp usually 50-60 in battlegrounds and 40-50 in cyro.
The issue is probably on your side, a bottkeneck somewhere.

That is not true. In some rare cases it can be because of the users system. In most cases however the low fps is from ZOS poor preforming servers. i7-6700k, gtx1080, 32gb ram, every OC and running watter cooled and in Cyro FPS still dips into the 30s.

On top of that have fios gigabit fiber internet.

Can you please prove that the server affects the client fps?

Go to Cyrodiil, stare at a wall, have a zerg come by and watch your FPS fall even though you are not rendering any of the action.

By staring at a wall your game is still processing most things around you, otherwise you would see textures and many other things loading when you move the screen.
It doesn't prove anything.

Then why is my CPU only at 50% active during these times? And the GPU barely used?

In every other mmo I have played the FPS and lag seem to be completely separate, but for some reason in ESO they seem to have a link of some kind.

I realize it makes no sense and is not how it should be, but it is how the practical experience plays out.

danno8

Ulfgarde wrote: »

I think he meant high ping (i.e. 300+ ping) and not zergs. Zergs are CPU intensive and it relies on how fast your CPU can calculate every single action. It has nothing to do with the server, only that it has to process it. Server performance cannot affect the client-side FPS.

See same response above.

tplink3r1

danno8 wrote: »

tplink3r1 wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

tplink3r1 wrote: »

Asgari wrote: »

Tonnopesce wrote: »

I have a tiny i5 7600k (oc at 4.5 gz rock solid) a gtx 780ti and 8 gig of ram and pve side in ultra I'm at 100-120 fps, pvp usually 50-60 in battlegrounds and 40-50 in cyro.
The issue is probably on your side, a bottkeneck somewhere.

That is not true. In some rare cases it can be because of the users system. In most cases however the low fps is from ZOS poor preforming servers. i7-6700k, gtx1080, 32gb ram, every OC and running watter cooled and in Cyro FPS still dips into the 30s.

On top of that have fios gigabit fiber internet.

Can you please prove that the server affects the client fps?

Go to Cyrodiil, stare at a wall, have a zerg come by and watch your FPS fall even though you are not rendering any of the action.

By staring at a wall your game is still processing most things around you, otherwise you would see textures and many other things loading when you move the screen.
It doesn't prove anything.

Then why is my CPU only at 50% active during these times? And the GPU barely used?

In every other mmo I have played the FPS and lag seem to be completely separate, but for some reason in ESO they seem to have a link of some kind.

I realize it makes no sense and is not how it should be, but it is how the practical experience plays out.

danno8 wrote: »

tplink3r1 wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

tplink3r1 wrote: »

Asgari wrote: »

Tonnopesce wrote: »

I have a tiny i5 7600k (oc at 4.5 gz rock solid) a gtx 780ti and 8 gig of ram and pve side in ultra I'm at 100-120 fps, pvp usually 50-60 in battlegrounds and 40-50 in cyro.
The issue is probably on your side, a bottkeneck somewhere.

That is not true. In some rare cases it can be because of the users system. In most cases however the low fps is from ZOS poor preforming servers. i7-6700k, gtx1080, 32gb ram, every OC and running watter cooled and in Cyro FPS still dips into the 30s.

On top of that have fios gigabit fiber internet.

Can you please prove that the server affects the client fps?

Go to Cyrodiil, stare at a wall, have a zerg come by and watch your FPS fall even though you are not rendering any of the action.

By staring at a wall your game is still processing most things around you, otherwise you would see textures and many other things loading when you move the screen.
It doesn't prove anything.

Then why is my CPU only at 50% active during these times? And the GPU barely used?

In every other mmo I have played the FPS and lag seem to be completely separate, but for some reason in ESO they seem to have a link of some kind.

I realize it makes no sense and is not how it should be, but it is how the practical experience plays out.

That's called bad optimization, and it happens with offline games too.

freespirit

@Octopuss , I just recently got treated to a brand new shiney PC, which because of the build I wanted meant I had to sacrifice my beloved Win 7 for Win 10.......

So I think I'm around 3 months in now and besides a few early "teething" problems, such as "where the #*~# is that now", I have to admit I'm now quite happy with Win 10.

As for ESO well that also looks "brand new and very shiney", everything at max makes the game look so different, although my ageing eyes do find big fight scenes sometimes overly bright.

As for the performance issues the OP is talking about, even my previous machine never really had any problems but that did involve reducing certain settings.

I do feel for everyone on the NA server there does seem to be a definite problem with it atm. I use the EU server from London, my internet can be very good or damn awful but my ping sits between 50-150, my only advice on that would be where-ever possible ALWAYS play hardwired not Wi-Fi

SirDopey

Octopuss wrote: »

karldavy149b16_ESO wrote: »

30 fps with that build ... my tablet gets 30 fps, i either think you full of it ... and have not been to truthfull with your system specs .. or your knowledge of computers is that of a 4 year old ... either way ... im running less system and getting 60 fps 100% of the time even in silly land

Right, and you type like a four year old.
Feel free to leave the thread, you're not contributing anything and only pollute it.

tplink3r1 wrote: »

Can you please prove that the server affects the client fps?

It doesn't. Lots of people are mixing stuff here.
And just because most of us are getting unreasonably low fps doesn't mean we have graphical settings set too high. Typically a game like ESO is heavily CPU-hungry, and with poor optimization (or being unable to utilize more CPU cores) the CPU can't feed data to the GPU quickly enough, which results in low FPS - but that doesn't mean the card is slow.

I'm playing on a MAC book pro laptop, only time I ever have issues with FPS is when the power cable isn't plugged in and I'm playing off the battery. Your system seems far superior than mine so there must be some client side/setting conflicts going on because mine is consistently around 60 - 70 fps.

Kanar

danno8 wrote: »

tplink3r1 wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

tplink3r1 wrote: »

Asgari wrote: »

Tonnopesce wrote: »

I have a tiny i5 7600k (oc at 4.5 gz rock solid) a gtx 780ti and 8 gig of ram and pve side in ultra I'm at 100-120 fps, pvp usually 50-60 in battlegrounds and 40-50 in cyro.
The issue is probably on your side, a bottkeneck somewhere.

That is not true. In some rare cases it can be because of the users system. In most cases however the low fps is from ZOS poor preforming servers. i7-6700k, gtx1080, 32gb ram, every OC and running watter cooled and in Cyro FPS still dips into the 30s.

On top of that have fios gigabit fiber internet.

Can you please prove that the server affects the client fps?

Go to Cyrodiil, stare at a wall, have a zerg come by and watch your FPS fall even though you are not rendering any of the action.

By staring at a wall your game is still processing most things around you, otherwise you would see textures and many other things loading when you move the screen.
It doesn't prove anything.

Then why is my CPU only at 50% active during these times? And the GPU barely used?

In every other mmo I have played the FPS and lag seem to be completely separate, but for some reason in ESO they seem to have a link of some kind.

I realize it makes no sense and is not how it should be, but it is how the practical experience plays out.

A client could be bottlenecked by the server. For example, client needs a piece of data and so makes a request and blocks the application until data is received. It would be odd to block a rendering thread for that data though. I don't think the server delay is causing an actual fps loss, probably the CPU or GPU utilization is spiking but only very briefly so it is not reflected on your monitoring software.

There's a lot of reasons why your CPU/GPU are at less than 100% and fps less than 60. Overuse of locks/synchronization is a big one or inefficient algorithms (what people call "unoptimized code"); it could also be a different hw limitation. I have found ESO uses a lot of page file, even though I have sufficient free memory. That could slow things down. GPU memory capacity and speed are another potential bottleneck. I'm wondering if one bottleneck is passing info from system memory to GPU memory: that data about where other players are located all comes in through the network, must be loaded into some application memory, and then those details sent to GPU memory to render, right? That data is moving around a lot.

majulook

All this DX12 talk when DX13 is coming soon