[Build] "The Lightslayer" - Magicka Templar - Battlegrounds Build - HotR Patch
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Ashamray✭✭✭✭✭I thought and I decided that build is nice ;D Really nice tankplar that is able to kill, tank and do each objective at BG.
wp!Boadrig, EU PC
Very Balanced
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Imperial City feedback and suggestions1 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Ok, @raasdal , I see how it works. Haven't changed my mind yet, but It definitely worth of testing.
How exactly it got 5% reduction? Be accurate with your math, please, and explain with numbers?
I'm not seeing it either, but knowing Lexxypwns he may just drop a meta bomb here lol.
Best to let him explain.
Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual0 -
Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
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I'm not seeing it either, but knowing Lexxypwns he may just drop a meta bomb here lol.
Best to let him explain.
Well technically speaking with any Mitigation you never truly get the listed percentage. Especially with sharpened nerf, if you have any form of mitigation it lessens the true amount.
Example, if I'm getting 10% Mitigation from my armor maim will only be worth 13.5% etc.
There maybe even more to what @Lexxypwns is saying0 -
raasdal✭✭✭✭✭
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Riposte is only 10% in pvp, because battlespirit screws with maim. Usually you want to start your math from an accurate point. Now this whole thread is full of *** math. GG
This is also news to me, and i am a real stickler for knowing game and number mechanics. Now you really must explain in more detail, please. Otherwise i will go crazy. Normally, battlespirit does not really affect any percentage mitigations at all, so curious as to how it would affect Maim like that?I thought and I decided that build is nice ;D Really nice tankplar that is able to kill, tank and do each objective at BG.
wp!
Thanks!
PC - EU
Gromag Gro-Molag - Sorcerer - EP
Dexion Velus - Dragonknight - AD
Chalaux Erissa - Nightblade - AD
Firiel Erissa - Templar - AD0 -
Lexxypwns✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Brutusmax1mus wrote: »
@HoloYoitsu proved itOk, @raasdal , I see how it works. Haven't changed my mind yet, but It definitely worth of testing.
How exactly it got 5% reduction? Be accurate with your math, please, and explain with numbers?
It's been tested, it's not hard to test yourself, just do a light attack, get debuffed, do another light attack. I guarantee you will see I'm correct. This game is notorious for tool tips being misleading, if something interests you then you should test it to see how it works rather than just assume.Waffennacht wrote: »
Well technically speaking with any Mitigation you never truly get the listed percentage. Especially with sharpened nerf, if you have any form of mitigation it lessens the true amount.
Example, if I'm getting 10% Mitigation from my armor maim will only be worth 13.5% etc.
There maybe even more to what @Lexxypwns is saying
Maim is not mitigation, it doesn't work like that. The debuff is only 10% in pvp, period. If your attack would do 10k and you get maim you do 9k NOT 8500, it's that simple. The tooltip is wrong in cyrodiil and duels.
Riposte is still amazing, I run it on every light armor build I have and rarely consider any setup without it. It's just not a better tank set than pariah. And all the math here is based off a faulty premise rather than actual testing and that really bugs me.Edited by Lexxypwns on August 26, 2017 3:34PM2 -
Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭You sure bout that @Lexxypwns ?
Here's what you're talking about:HoloYoitsu wrote: »OK so I see this thread is full of people on both sides of the debate, none of whom have actually tested the numbers beyond looking at the erroneous tooltip. Allow me to quote myself from the other riposte thread:
All sources of Minor Maim only reduce player damage by 10% not 15% as the tooltip says.
Likewise:- Major Maim only reduces player damage by 20%, not 30%.
- Bastion of the Heartland (5% player dmg + 20% AoE mitigation) only gives 20% mitigation total, not 25%.
- Blade Cloak (25% tooltip mitigation) only gives 20% mitigation.
These sources of mitigation all do give the actual tooltip mitigation against NPC mobs, just not against players - which is what I discovered after testing each one. Your math is incorrect: Major and Minor Protection are multiplicative with all other sources of mitigation and as I stated, Minor Maim only gives 10% mitigation, not 15%.
Thence, stacking all three effects results in 42.04% mitigation. Yes that's still a lot of mitigation, but what I would like to say to everyone is please be forward thinking and do some in game testing to see what the numbers really are.paulsimonps wrote: »
@HoloYoitsu
All of this is only half truths, You give values but they are only in certain situations. The tooltip values are accurate but are subject to diminish returns. Battlespirit+minor maim=0.5*0.85=0.425=57.5% total mitigation. Your claim that minor maim is only 10% is false, its less, but only when counting with battlespirit. If we count the damage after battlespirit as the default damage then minor maim is indeed a 15% damage mitigation.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/279426/damage-mitigation-explanation-and-list-of-options/p1
According to @paulsimonps I'm right, it's the multiplicative effect only
Edited by Waffennacht on August 26, 2017 3:46PM0 -
Lexxypwns✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Waffennacht wrote: »You sure bout that @Lexxypwns ?
Here's what you're talking about:
According to @paulsimonps I'm right, it's the multiplicative effect only
We actually have no way of seeing the calculations behind the scenes so his numbers are as inconclusive as mine and only serve to prove the point that all the math on riposte presented in this thread is wrong.
My testing has indicated that on every single build I run riposte on I receive only 10% benefit from riposte(all magika specs). Perhaps in a vaccuum or on particularly low mitigation builds we will se different numbers.
The fact remains, riposte is less mitigation than pariah.Edited by Lexxypwns on August 26, 2017 4:20PM0 -
Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
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We actually have no way of seeing the calculations behind the scenes so his numbers are as inconclusive as mine and only serve to prove the point that all the math on riposte presented in this thread is wrong.
My testing has indicated that on every single build I run riposte on I receive only 10% benefit from riposte(all magika specs). Perhaps in a vaccuum or on particularly low mitigation builds we will se different numbers.
The fact remains, riposte is less mitigation than pariah.
Of course! I'm more concerned about "bugs" which are everywhere and or last minute nerfs, or even flat our wrong UIs.
I wouldn't be surprised to hear if it's 10% not including any other mitigation.
But let's just factor in 5k resistance (8%?) Would automatically turn Riposte into less than 14%
In fact.. combining Riposte with Pariah would mean at most 7.5% from Riposte
Add in ANY protection and you're only getting approximately 6% from Riposte.
You're absolutely right in saying Riposte is essentially for Light Armor with almost 0 forms of Mitigation0 -
Lexxypwns✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Waffennacht wrote: »
Of course! I'm more concerned about "bugs" which are everywhere and or last minute nerfs, or even flat our wrong UIs.
I wouldn't be surprised to hear if it's 10% not including any other mitigation.
But let's just factor in 5k resistance (8%?) Would automatically turn Riposte into less than 14%
In fact.. combining Riposte with Pariah would mean at most 7.5% from Riposte
Add in ANY protection and you're only getting approximately 6% from Riposte.
You're absolutely right in saying Riposte is essentially for Light Armor with almost 0 forms of Mitigation
You're not counting warrior CP either...0 -
Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
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You're not counting warrior CP either...
Oh S#$& you're right! CP too!
Oh that's huge actually!
I now feel Riposte is really more of a No CP set0 -
Lexxypwns✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Waffennacht wrote: »
Oh S#$& you're right! CP too!
Oh that's huge actually!
I now feel Riposte is really more of a No CP set
It's still BiS for defensive light armor solo builds not using impreg+sturdy, but comparing it to the mitigation of real tanks sets is hilarious. Also, this should put things into perspective for people saying riposte is too strong.2 -
Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭paulsimonps wrote: »MINOR MAIM IS NOT 10% MITIGATION IN PVP!
It's less
Edit: I totally went back to your formula and it's definitely a part of the multiplicative formula for mitigation Right?Edited by Waffennacht on August 26, 2017 7:10PM0 -
paulsimonps✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Waffennacht wrote: »
Yes, yes it is, in one way. Just battle spirit and Minor maim puts you at 57.5% mitigation. Which technically if you use after Battlespirit as your base it is indeed 15%. Its 15% of what is left after battlespirit, which is 7.5% of the base damage. I tested this both in Cyrodiil as well as Duels in overworld after lexy claimed it was 10%, I could never get it to be that number. With just maim or with other sources of mitigation, it remained the same value. 15%, which is subject to diminishing returns.2 -
Lexxypwns✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭paulsimonps wrote: »
Yes, yes it is, in one way. Just battle spirit and Minor maim puts you at 57.5% mitigation. Which technically if you use after Battlespirit as your base it is indeed 15%. Its 15% of what is left after battlespirit, which is 7.5% of the base damage. I tested this both in Cyrodiil as well as Duels in overworld after lexy claimed it was 10%, I could never get it to be that number. With just maim or with other sources of mitigation, it remained the same value. 15%, which is subject to diminishing returns.
My apologies good sir, I'll go back and edit my posts to reflect that you're correct.
The fact remains, riposte is nowhere near as strong as anyone in this thread suggested and it's not even in the same league as pariah as far as single person mitigation goes.0 -
WillhelmBlack✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Makes me wonder what mitigation Hagraven set would have against players. It's says 50% with a cooldown obviously. 40? 45%?PC EU0 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
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My apologies good sir, I'll go back and edit my posts to reflect that you're correct.
The fact remains, riposte is nowhere near as strong as anyone in this thread suggested and it's not even in the same league as pariah as far as single person mitigation goes.
Just read the responses, and I thought as much was the case in that they way it was calculated was the case.
Idk if you need to record all the numbers to realize all the percentage based mitigation falls off when compared to how they perform. That's how I came to the realization that maybe as a LA user, I need to offset lack of resists over % based reductions since I already can get 20% thick/iron, 8% minor protection, and 10% Hardy (I thought that maybe I had too many percentage reductions and that was making me too squishy with cyros light).
Overall the performance of my build allowed me to extend fights, adding resists over percentage mitigation. It feels right.Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual0 -
Baconlad✭✭✭✭✭
✭For CP open world, transmutation works wonders. Ive found that wearing five body pieces of pariah, with transmutation jewels, transmutation sharp lightning staff, and sword and board trans weps, im pushing all resists to cap, im able to have two jewels with max spell damage, get 36.5k magic, and 2.3ishk spell damage buffed. My sweeps damage is better than OP, my tank is better than OP (while both are in skoria), my purifying light damage is amazing. Im giving crit resist buff to allies.
Lastly my light attacks mean MUCH more than OPs...i understand a lot of the build is based on using oblivion damage, but without meaningful light attacks or heavy attacks, the OP isnt reaching full potential. Now if they ever do decide to give staves two set piece bonuses, then lightning staff would be BIS with knightslayer. But untill that time ur better off with four trans on a lightning staff than knightslayer0 -
Baconlad✭✭✭✭✭
✭Let me edit that i DO UNDERSTAND that this is an a no CP build. And in no cp DW with knightslayer may be best, due to sweeps stacking so well with CPs that you dont get in no cp.0 -
raasdal✭✭✭✭✭
✭Let me edit that i DO UNDERSTAND that this is an a no CP build. And in no cp DW with knightslayer may be best, due to sweeps stacking so well with CPs that you dont get in no cp.
Exactly. This build does not translate in any way or form to CP. Damage output would be laughable at best. In no CP however, it's just enough to kill anyone. Where other builds will have an easy time with squishy targets, and an impossible time with the troll-tanks, this one takes them all at equal pace. That's what makes it the most fun to play. Seeing that permablocker / SnB ulti panick Edited by raasdal on August 28, 2017 9:05PMPC - EU
Gromag Gro-Molag - Sorcerer - EP
Dexion Velus - Dragonknight - AD
Chalaux Erissa - Nightblade - AD
Firiel Erissa - Templar - AD0 -
CatchMeTrolling✭✭✭✭✭
✭I wear riposte and put points into direct damage mitigation, does the two combine well like I thought or?0 -
Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭CatchMeTrolling wrote: »I wear riposte and put points into direct damage mitigation, does the two combine well like I thought or?
They combine more poorly. The more effective you make one Mitigation the less effective others become.
Let's say you achieve max armor resistance and have 50% Mitigation, Riposte becomes valued at 7.5% reduction.
Riposte works best with shields, because they have 0 resistance you get the full 15% mitigation from Riposte0 -
CatchMeTrolling✭✭✭✭✭
✭Waffennacht wrote: »
They combine more poorly. The more effective you make one Mitigation the less effective others become.
Let's say you achieve max armor resistance and have 50% Mitigation, Riposte becomes valued at 7.5% reduction.
Riposte works best with shields, because they have 0 resistance you get the full 15% mitigation from Riposte
Oh well I'm never at the cap really I play a light armored Templar but I'm running a mitigation build at the moment. So mitigation coming from riposte, cyrodiils light, resto, vamp passive etc.
Really shines in no cp and small outnumbered fights, just checking if I'd be better off putting points elsewhere.
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Lexxypwns✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Waffennacht wrote: »
They combine more poorly. The more effective you make one Mitigation the less effective others become.
Let's say you achieve max armor resistance and have 50% Mitigation, Riposte becomes valued at 7.5% reduction.
Riposte works best with shields, because they have 0 resistance you get the full 15% mitigation from Riposte
Can confirm. The squishier your build is the better riposte will become.0 -
paulsimonps✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Waffennacht wrote: »
They combine more poorly. The more effective you make one Mitigation the less effective others become.
Let's say you achieve max armor resistance and have 50% Mitigation, Riposte becomes valued at 7.5% reduction.
Riposte works best with shields, because they have 0 resistance you get the full 15% mitigation from Riposte
Saying they combine more poorly is very misleading. Yes diminishing returns is a thing but if you say they combine poorly cause they lower each other is the same as saying "Blocking is really bad if you have high resistance". Cause if you have 50% mitigation from Armor then Blocking only adds 25% not 50%, but you can flip that. "You should not use armor if you block, cause if you block then your armor is halved". See, very misleading. Its far more giving to compare total mitigation change, and yea comparing just 2 sources like that will show wide differences, but it doesn't make them that bad.0 -
Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭paulsimonps wrote: »
Saying they combine more poorly is very misleading. Yes diminishing returns is a thing but if you say they combine poorly cause they lower each other is the same as saying "Blocking is really bad if you have high resistance". Cause if you have 50% mitigation from Armor then Blocking only adds 25% not 50%, but you can flip that. "You should not use armor if you block, cause if you block then your armor is halved". See, very misleading. Its far more giving to compare total mitigation change, and yea comparing just 2 sources like that will show wide differences, but it doesn't make them that bad.
Well...
I do think if you're a blocking build, you wanna invest in everything but mitigation first.
If you're a Mitigation build, you wanna maximize armor resistance and then add the largest % mitigation armors next.
So, for mitigation, Pariah should come well before Riposte, and Cyrodiil's light.
For shield builds, Riposte/Light before Pariah
Adding armor with % mitigation is subpar when you can add armor mitigation + more armor mitigation.
I would go Pariah+Pirate before I went Riposte + Cyrodiil's light Unless I'm running Light Armor with shields like @CatchMeTrolling maybe I came across too intense though0 -
Trashs1✭✭✭since i have an argonian templar setting on dust because he isnt used... i maybe give it a try
thx for this good idea!Dolche des Königs (DDK); EuPC, DC, Sotha Sil,0 -
KingYogi415✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭This is less the half the magic on my magwarden in noCP.
Maybe post videos so we can see these top 9/10 leaderboards with 22k magic....1 -
Lexxypwns✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭paulsimonps wrote: »
Saying they combine more poorly is very misleading. Yes diminishing returns is a thing but if you say they combine poorly cause they lower each other is the same as saying "Blocking is really bad if you have high resistance". Cause if you have 50% mitigation from Armor then Blocking only adds 25% not 50%, but you can flip that. "You should not use armor if you block, cause if you block then your armor is halved". See, very misleading. Its far more giving to compare total mitigation change, and yea comparing just 2 sources like that will show wide differences, but it doesn't make them that bad.
Bad is relative. Riposte gives far less benefit the more forms of other mitigation you stack. At a point of mitigation(haven't mathed it) the increased healing from adding more damage/crit does more for your survivability, not to mention the extra killing power. Therefore, for pvp, I truly believe it is accurate to say riposte is bad on high mitigation builds. There is, after all, an opportunity cost to choose riposte in place of a different 5pc set.
I think it is safe to say, outside of a vacuum, riposte is terrible on high mitigation builds. In a vacuum it can add more mitigation to most builds, but in reality the price isn't worth paying unless it's one of your main mitigation sources.Edited by Lexxypwns on August 29, 2017 7:03AM1