vICP did not need a nerf!

Luigi_Vampa

ZOS has data on how many people complete this dungeon, from group finder, pre-made etc... That is how they choose if the dungeon needs nerfed. I don't agree with it, but ZOS probably has a certain completion percentage rate they are trying to achieve. The dungeon has been out long enough and they want light attacking PUGs to complete it now.

Sucks for the hardcore crowd. I think they should add a Nightmare Mode with better rewards, (smaller loot table, or tokens, gold jewlery) or something. Keep Nightmare mode out of group finder, only pre-made groups can enter and give elite players something rewarding their dedication.

Betsararie

zaria wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

Blackleopardex wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

Yoku wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

1) You guys talk about minor tweaks as if they were major nerfs. They're not.

2) Veteran modes of this dungeon, WGT, COA and the other DLC dungeons all need major nerfs. Why? Because you can't find any pugs in the group finder who can complete them.

COA is not a DLC dungeon.... but why you dont search 3 friends and try hard until you complete?? atleast this is how i did it in the beginning...

vCoA2 is hard but not an dlc one, pugs are pugs, see it as an major debuff.
On the other hand vCoA1 is easy, we 3 manned it because of bug in finder. one death, me because of fall damage
The only issue is sets, why does spell power cure drop from WGT and not wayrest or fungal 1

No it's not
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TXghSpgcs4

agree. CoA2 is not at all hard.

Just cringe whenever someone lists it as a 'hard' dungeon.

Might just be bad memories from lots of cp and skill ago, harder than vet wayrest 2

true.

I am just saying however, I wouldn't classify it as hard.

I've played a lot of games. You want to know what is hard? 100% fc (no miss) through the fire and flames GH3.

Beat any Guilty Gear game 100% all missions etc

I wanna be the guy


This game is not hard at all. vCoA2 is not hard. I believe that objectively it isn't. CoA2 is one of my favorite dungs. Pls don't nerf.

Luigi_Vampa

psxfloh wrote: »

Blackleopardex wrote: »

...when it comes to difficulty.

SammyFable wrote: »

Agreed. Can't we have a single challenging thing in this game, that's NOT a raid?

If you're looking for "difficult content", why don't you create it yourselfes?

Use only purple/blue/green/white/no gear, do it with only 9/8/7..3/2/1 skills and only 1 or no ultimate. Or see what's the minimum Skill and/or Champion Points spent with which you're still able to do it!?

What about a "all green gear, 2 skills only, no CP vIP/vCOS HM" video? No THAT would be something..

Some people want to be rewarded for completeing something truly difficult. Self imposed difficulty without increased rewards isn't nearly as enjoyable. Yay, you beat it naked using only a broom... and you got the same *** as if you had completed it in your proper gear in a fraction of the time.

Some people want to be challenged to use everything at their disposal to overcome a challenge. Gimping yourself isn't nearly as rewarding.

VoodooWasser

Problem with this game is that it never teaches the players how to play until they hit vet dungeons or bet trials. EVERYTHING else is so freakin easy than noone actually has to think about builds, skills or rotations. Than they come into the firs vet trial, spamming bow lightatacks and crytall frags and wonder why nothing dies instantly.

Qbiken

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

Now I just want them to nerf vMA (awaits flames)

Medium quality bait

The Flameknight on stage 8 could use a damage tweak on the other hand. And make the flamecasters fireballs(those with the spinning flame on their staff) dodgeable/reflectable. Only tweaks I would like to see in vMA, especially the flamecaster one.

Dymence

zaria wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

1) You guys talk about minor tweaks as if they were major nerfs. They're not.

2) Veteran modes of this dungeon, WGT, COA and the other DLC dungeons all need major nerfs. Why? Because you can't find any pugs in the group finder who can complete them.

Why does everything need to be PUGable?

Should we nerf trials too to make them PUGable?

That is called normal trials

And for dungeons you have normal dungeons

psxfloh

Luigi_Vampa wrote: »

Some people want to be rewarded for completeing something truly difficult.
[...]
and you got the same *** as if you had completed it in your proper gear in a fraction of the time.

pffft.. as if anything in that game was truly rewarding in terms of "loot" - and I doubt the OP or his friend still need any loot from vIP; or any of the achievements. If they needed any of the sets they wouldn't complain about difficulty as a decrease in difficulty would also decrease the time spent battling the unforgiving gods of RNG...
So what's left is the personal challenge of being able to beat this or that.

Luigi_Vampa wrote: »

Self imposed difficulty without increased rewards isn't nearly as enjoyable. Yay, you beat it naked using only a broom...

Well, in the real world artists all over the world do exactly that by performing their stunts blindfolded and having one hand strapped to their back.. and they already did it by going in with a group of 2 instead of 4!

Luigi_Vampa wrote: »

Some people want to be challenged to use everything at their disposal to overcome a challenge.

That's finally something I agree on - if you got that shiny armor and sword, you wanna take it out for a walk and not let it collect dust while lying unused in your bank.

But still... it looks like you have no choice but to set the challenge yourself: get faster with every run, decrease the amount of skill/champion points spent or the quality of gear used.
Then look if someone takes up the challenge and beats you. I'd say there's nothing as rewarding as to win your title back.

Complaining about the content being too easy is.. meh.
Come back when you did it with your bare hands while stripped naked and no skill points or cp spent. And then I'll give you some negative effect potions and send you straight back in.

Vaoh

Not surprised. I just wish they would finally create an Undaunted tutorial to show players how to deal damage besides light attack spam and spamming Stonefist....

Most PUG groups cannot complete content because they consist of players who are horrible at playing roles. They can't learn without being taught or by losing enough times to learn. Until then content will only get nerfed, both angering players who somewhat understand how to play and still being too tough for those who don't.

Teach players how to play ZOS - no need for nerfs to vICP in particular. Also there's the argument that "Veteran" difficulty shouldn't be easy but.... oh well We had players who completed vWGT with only light attacks a long time ago yet even that dungeon was nerfed.

Marabornwingrion

Nerfs to all DLC dungeons was one of the most stupid decisions made this patch, they are already too easy...

DRXHarbinger

Scrubs. Solo it or gtfo. I killed warden pre 1 tamriel on my healer solo once.

Emma_Overload

VoodooWasser wrote: »

Problem with this game is that it never teaches the players how to play until they hit vet dungeons or bet trials. EVERYTHING else is so freakin easy than noone actually has to think about builds, skills or rotations. Than they come into the firs vet trial, spamming bow lightatacks and crytall frags and wonder why nothing dies instantly.

You're talking about "builds, skills or rotations", but in my experience, those aren't the sources of problems in the DLC dungeons. The problems I've seen are that pugs, even high CP players, have no idea how to deal with the complicated mechanics. Any content that requires you to quit playing and go watch how-to videos for an hour on YouTube is just too complicated. Most players just want to kill stuff, not jump through hoops.

Feanor

No the game doesn't need more nerfs. But then ZOS has gone full casual. Casual is not the right word though. There are lots of people who are casuals and still decent to very good players. What do you call players who just refuse to play at a reasonable standard (not standing in red, not dying stupidly, listen when you don't know something, be able to fulfill your role - hold Aggro, or heal, or have like 10k to 15k DPS)? It is what it is.

Magdalina

Emma_Overload wrote: »

VoodooWasser wrote: »

Problem with this game is that it never teaches the players how to play until they hit vet dungeons or bet trials. EVERYTHING else is so freakin easy than noone actually has to think about builds, skills or rotations. Than they come into the firs vet trial, spamming bow lightatacks and crytall frags and wonder why nothing dies instantly.

You're talking about "builds, skills or rotations", but in my experience, those aren't the sources of problems in the DLC dungeons. The problems I've seen are that pugs, even high CP players, have no idea how to deal with the complicated mechanics. Any content that requires you to quit playing and go watch how-to videos for an hour on YouTube is just too complicated. Most players just want to kill stuff, not jump through hoops.

Exactly. In my experience, the main issue is absolute lack of reading comprehension. It honestly takes no vids, just following the 2-3 lines of instructions(there can be an issue when either no one knows mechanics or those knowing refuse to explain, but personally I always type out explanations if I see team having issues).

Example, WGT, Planar:
"Guys close the pinion"
*nobody takes the pinion, we wipe gloriously*
"Guys, you need to close that thing in the middle. It will put a dot on someone otherwise. Just come to it and press the interaction key as soon as you see it open"
*no ones closes pinion, we wipe again*
"Guys, do you speak English? "
"yes"
"When you see that thing in the middle open and light on fire, please go to it and close it"
*no one closes pinion again, we wipe, rinse and repeat a few more times til I give up and leave*

Are you ^$Y^%@$* kidding me? ALL it takes is pressing ONE key sometimes. There's NOTHING challenging in it. There're other things in this and other dungeons that can be challenging but seriously, pressing a single key when you see a very obvious cue and have plenty of time to react is not one of them. They speak English, they saw my instructions, they know we will die again if they don't follow them...yet they keep going, ignoring pinion(and likely portals too). My only conclusion can be they enjoy dying/are trolls because I cannot think of any other reason why they'd refuse to follow mechanics. And it's not a random 1/100 too, it's 3/4 pugs. These people aren't getting overrun by overwhelming difficulty, they literally REFUSE to do the content, why on Earth should the content be watered down to cater to them?

Yet they actually nerfed Planar yet again. Ffs just give people an optional "kill all the things" button at the start of the dungeon already because that's the only thing that can help some of them -_____-

Betsararie

Emma_Overload wrote: »

VoodooWasser wrote: »

Problem with this game is that it never teaches the players how to play until they hit vet dungeons or bet trials. EVERYTHING else is so freakin easy than noone actually has to think about builds, skills or rotations. Than they come into the firs vet trial, spamming bow lightatacks and crytall frags and wonder why nothing dies instantly.

You're talking about "builds, skills or rotations", but in my experience, those aren't the sources of problems in the DLC dungeons. The problems I've seen are that pugs, even high CP players, have no idea how to deal with the complicated mechanics. Any content that requires you to quit playing and go watch how-to videos for an hour on YouTube is just too complicated. Most players just want to kill stuff, not jump through hoops.

It has to do with both.

Many may not know the mechanics, but their builds are also ineffectual.

I've asked them before. It's random gear haphazardously thrown together.

Teridaxus

Honestly i don't care about the dlc dungeons, i only own imperial city because of the city itself, but you have to see it from zos viewpoint.
They want to make money and since eso is aimed for the people who own the single player games where the elder scrolls ip comes from and casual people who jump from one game to another every 1-3 months.
Having a dlc which only appeals to 5-10% of the player base doesn't make profit.
It's nerfs or you can say good bye to the dlc dungeons in favour for more regular story zone dlcs and crown crates.

Yes, i'm aware of normal mode but nobody wants to run because of the lack of rewards compared to vet.

MattT1988

Teridaxus wrote: »

Honestly i don't care about the dlc dungeons, i only own imperial city because of the city itself, but you have to see it from zos viewpoint.
They want to make money and since eso is aimed for the people who own the single player games where the elder scrolls ip comes from and casual people who jump from one game to another every 1-3 months.
Having a dlc which only appeals to 5-10% of the player base doesn't make profit.
It's nerfs or you can say good bye to the dlc dungeons in favour for more regular story zone dlcs and crown crates.

Yes, i'm aware of normal mode but nobody wants to run because of the lack of rewards compared to vet.

I wouldn't say lack of rewards. You get everything you get from vet except the monster helms and purple jewellery. The rest of the gear you can upgrade from blue to purple.

SickDuck

Emma_Overload wrote: »

1) You guys talk about minor tweaks as if they were major nerfs. They're not.

2) Veteran modes of this dungeon, WGT, COA and the other DLC dungeons all need major nerfs. Why? Because you can't find any pugs in the group finder who can complete them.

Exactly. Still I can't get my head around why don't we have more difficulty options. VICP used to have 16 "scales". That scaling ofc was rubbish but we'd still use like 3 veteran versions with slightly different loot quality and/or xp to satisfy various player groups.

Prof_Bawbag

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

1) You guys talk about minor tweaks as if they were major nerfs. They're not.

2) Veteran modes of this dungeon, WGT, COA and the other DLC dungeons all need major nerfs. Why? Because you can't find any pugs in the group finder who can complete them.

Why does everything need to be PUGable?

Should we nerf trials too to make them PUGable?

No one here is in a position to actually give out facts, but I'd hazard a guess and say the numbers ZoS have, have indicated next to no one was using this content and the decision was made to make it more accessible to others. It's what happens when a minority make it difficult for others by excluding people. They end up being the losers themselves, then come on here and cry that their niche content is no longer niche or that their niche content isn't a priority when it comes to fixes. People can't have it all ways. As for others who state find a friend or two, well, not everyone has friends that play this game. PUGable does away with the need to have friends.

Before people pipe up stating others games manage fine, this isn't other games, it's ESO and if it's being dumbed down too much, then they can feel free to move on to those games. No one is stopping them.

Joy_Division

Emma_Overload wrote: »

1) You guys talk about minor tweaks as if they were major nerfs. They're not.

2) Veteran modes of this dungeon, WGT, COA and the other DLC dungeons all need major nerfs. Why? Because you can't find any pugs in the group finder who can complete them.

Whats the point of normal mode then?

Doctordarkspawn

Blanco wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

They cut the fat from the dungeon.

The sky isn't falling, you need to learn to share

ew, no.

Kidding. Kidding. it's a joke

In all honesty, I just wish that they could have made everyone happy.

A purist like me didn't want to see it nerfed because I feel it's lowered the quality of the dung. On the other hand, more people probably need to complete it.

Maybe they could have upped the difficulty of normal.

Or maybe just make a third difficulty, which more people are advocating for by this point.

It'd probably make most people happier. Easy, Medium, Hard. Like we should have had. Have gold drops, because yay gold jewlery and tempers gallore and make the difficulty reflect the reward.

The people who want difficulty, get difficulty, and everyone else either gets to faceroll on easy or try for a balanced experience on normal.

Doctordarkspawn

Joy_Division wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

1) You guys talk about minor tweaks as if they were major nerfs. They're not.

2) Veteran modes of this dungeon, WGT, COA and the other DLC dungeons all need major nerfs. Why? Because you can't find any pugs in the group finder who can complete them.

Whats the point of normal mode then?

There isn't.

It's allways been kiddie pool, so why dont we just rename it to 'easy' and be done with it?

Qbiken

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

1) You guys talk about minor tweaks as if they were major nerfs. They're not.

2) Veteran modes of this dungeon, WGT, COA and the other DLC dungeons all need major nerfs. Why? Because you can't find any pugs in the group finder who can complete them.

Whats the point of normal mode then?

There isn't.

It's allways been kiddie pool, so why dont we just rename it to 'easy' and be done with it?

You mean farming mode???

Khenarthi

I'm happy the difficulty got toned down, maybe now I'll even enjoy running this content. Not everyone plays fot "the challenge", ZOS has the numbers and adjust their game accordingly.

Tyrion87

Apart from vICP, I remember the days when vWGT was a challenge. When during the fight with Molag Kena you actually had to beat a couple of storm atros while the fight itself lasted longer than 1 minute. When during the Planar fight players had to cooperate and the order of touching the pinion mattered.

Now it's all gone. You just burn everything. You don't see a single atro. You don't take turns in touching the pinion.

Vet mode should pose a challenge even for good endgame players while normal mode should be for casuals (like it used to be... in good ol' times). What do we have instead right now? Normal is for farming, vet is for casuals. There is no challenging content for 4-man groups of good endgame players anymore. If someone counts vDSA, that's obviously not enough. ZOS caters so much (too much) to casual players, neglecting completely more dedicated part of their playerbase. If this is the direction of ZOS for vet modes, they should introduce a third tier of difficulty asap otherwise they will be losing players even more.

Jhalin

The stench of elitism is strong here. You few have the option of making it hard for yourself if you want to. In the meantime, the majority of players will be pleasantly greeted by some much needed adjustments.

Making content available to, again, the majority of players will not lose them their player base. That is some ass backwards logic being employed.

Surak73

Qbiken wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

Now I just want them to nerf vMA (awaits flames)

Medium quality bait

The Flameknight on stage 8 could use a damage tweak on the other hand. And make the flamecasters fireballs(those with the spinning flame on their staff) dodgeable/reflectable. Only tweaks I would like to see in vMA, especially the flamecaster one.

Real problem with Flameknight is from lag, though: many times it happens that she hits you before you can see any animation.

The only thing you should nerf in vMA is lag. Just for saying, last week in final arena some dk dremoras hitted me with their lava whip even before they spawned...

Feanor

Jhalin wrote: »

The stench of elitism is strong here. You few have the option of making it hard for yourself if you want to. In the meantime, the majority of players will be pleasantly greeted by some much needed adjustments.

Making content available to, again, the majority of players will not lose them their player base. That is some ass backwards logic being employed.

So in your view someone is "elite" who can finish a vet dungeon successfully. Not the definition of elite most would agree to I guess...

IwakuraLain42

Tyrion87 wrote: »

Apart from vICP, I remember the days when vWGT was a challenge. When during the fight with Molag Kena you actually had to beat a couple of storm atros while the fight itself lasted longer than 1 minute. When during the Planar fight players had to cooperate and the order of touching the pinion mattered.

Now it's all gone. You just burn everything. You don't see a single atro. You don't take turns in touching the pinion.

Sorry, this just shows how far out of touch you (and the rest of the elite bunch) are with reality of most of players are. Most players that are able to finish these vet dungeons (and no, we are not talking about "light attack spammer") need 2-3 pinion cycles on the Planar fight and they see enought Storm atros on the Molag Kena fight. The average dps for most veteran players is 15-20k dps and that is not enough to burn through all mechanics.

Tyrion87 wrote: »

Vet mode should pose a challenge even for good endgame players while normal mode should be for casuals (like it used to be... in good ol' times). What do we have instead right now? Normal is for farming, vet is for casuals. There is no challenging content for 4-man groups of good endgame players anymore. If someone counts vDSA, that's obviously not enough. ZOS caters so much (too much) to casual players, neglecting completely more dedicated part of their playerbase. If this is the direction of ZOS for vet modes, they should introduce a third tier of difficulty asap otherwise they will be losing players even more.

This just shows the typical disdain quite a lot of elite players have for the rest of the player base. You already have a lot of end game toys (vMA, vDSA, vMoL, vHoF, SoH dungeons). Why why should ZOS spent any more money (and building dungeons and trials costs money) that is only available to a tiny minority of the player base. There should be more new veteran content on the level of the base game (dungeons and trials).

Prof_Bawbag

Tyrion87 wrote: »

Apart from vICP, I remember the days when vWGT was a challenge. When during the fight with Molag Kena you actually had to beat a couple of storm atros while the fight itself lasted longer than 1 minute. When during the Planar fight players had to cooperate and the order of touching the pinion mattered.

Now it's all gone. You just burn everything. You don't see a single atro. You don't take turns in touching the pinion.

Vet mode should pose a challenge even for good endgame players while normal mode should be for casuals (like it used to be... in good ol' times). What do we have instead right now? Normal is for farming, vet is for casuals. There is no challenging content for 4-man groups of good endgame players anymore. If someone counts vDSA, that's obviously not enough. ZOS caters so much (too much) to casual players, neglecting completely more dedicated part of their playerbase. If this is the direction of ZOS for vet modes, they should introduce a third tier of difficulty asap otherwise they will be losing players even more.

They obviously disagree with your assertion that the loss of these players who you have taken it upon yourself to speak out on behalf of will have any real impact on on the player base. ZoS may be many things, but I highly doubt they'd shoot themselves in the foot that way. I'm not disputing that you and others of your ilk are disappointed and have valid concerns as far as your preferred style of play is concerned, nor I'm not bashing you either as you're entitled to an opinion as much as myself, but if you truly believe this will hurt ZoS in any meaningful way, then you're living in a bubble and fail to see the larger picture.

When people become a part of a niche set up and group with like minded people, it tends to skew their perception of the player base at large. Of course if you're talking to people that share the same views as yourself on this, it will seem everyone agrees with you, but the fact is, it's not representative of the actual player base.

Do I think a 3rd difficulty should be implemented? Yeah, why not. After all, more options is never a bad thing. I hope you eventually get what you're after as you have as much right to enjoy the content in this game as us mere "casuals" or "scrubs", but I wouldn't go around thinking you're in the majority when these changes tell us quite the opposite.

Tyrion87

IwakuraLain42 wrote: »

Tyrion87 wrote: »

Apart from vICP, I remember the days when vWGT was a challenge. When during the fight with Molag Kena you actually had to beat a couple of storm atros while the fight itself lasted longer than 1 minute. When during the Planar fight players had to cooperate and the order of touching the pinion mattered.

Now it's all gone. You just burn everything. You don't see a single atro. You don't take turns in touching the pinion.

Sorry, this just shows how far out of touch you (and the rest of the elite bunch) are with reality of most of players are. Most players that are able to finish these vet dungeons (and no, we are not talking about "light attack spammer") need 2-3 pinion cycles on the Planar fight and they see enought Storm atros on the Molag Kena fight. The average dps for most veteran players is 15-20k dps and that is not enough to burn through all mechanics.

Tyrion87 wrote: »

Vet mode should pose a challenge even for good endgame players while normal mode should be for casuals (like it used to be... in good ol' times). What do we have instead right now? Normal is for farming, vet is for casuals. There is no challenging content for 4-man groups of good endgame players anymore. If someone counts vDSA, that's obviously not enough. ZOS caters so much (too much) to casual players, neglecting completely more dedicated part of their playerbase. If this is the direction of ZOS for vet modes, they should introduce a third tier of difficulty asap otherwise they will be losing players even more.

This just shows the typical disdain quite a lot of elite players have for the rest of the player base. You already have a lot of end game toys (vMA, vDSA, vMoL, vHoF, SoH dungeons). Why why should ZOS spent any more money (and building dungeons and trials costs money) that is only available to a tiny minority of the player base. There should be more new veteran content on the level of the base game (dungeons and trials).

Not every content in this game has to be doable for everyone. There are players of various levels of proficiency and experience in this game and all of them needs something challenging to keep them entertained. And you are just another egoist that would like to have all content within your reach. I am aware that casual players constitute the majority of the playerbase. That's why, due to the changes to vet modes that seem to be the general direction of this game now, I suggested that there should be a next tier of difficulty since right now no dungeon pose a challenge to good players anymore. It would hurt you somehow? You would keep your nerfed vet content for yourself.

And oh... believe me, I'm far from being a so-called 'elitist' haha I just like the feeling of accomplishment and satisfaction when I do something tough and when I worked for it really hard with my friends.