What was the point Zenimax?

ConnorWoods

Samadhi wrote: »

ConnorWoods wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

ConnorWoods wrote: »

...
So yeah I have friends that play StamDK and StamSorc that could fill in the blanks for me, without the templar crit passive boosting the crit modifier more times than not the Thief won.

You appear to have missed the entirety of the point in my post,
so will attempt to reword this in a context that you can think about your friends in

are all of you using the same builds prior to the selection of a Mundus stone?

Your original post stated:

ConnorWoods wrote: »

...
I just wanna make it crystal clear however that in your efforts to balance the stones on the final patch day you've actually just removed the diversity altogether ...

but how much build diversity are we looking at prior to the stones?

If your argument is that everyone is now wearing the same sets and using the same weapons because the Warrior stone is imbalanced,
then it is a balance issue brought on by the stones.

If your argument is that min/maxers will gravitate towards one stone rather than another in final build tweaks,
then it is a balance issue brought on prior to the stones.

and if you please read what I said, the way you calculate which stone is better will depend on their gear as that affects their critical strike rating and crit modifier, however outside of stones there is very little to alter this outside of the 4-5 set metas, which I might add the most popular sets for stamina, and hit the highest are Hunding's Rage, Vicious Ophidian, Night mother's Gaze and Leviathan. Which all have 2 critical strike passives.

I spoke generally and should have been clarified but 9/10 times on those classes the stone I said would be better.

So your argument is that min/maxers will gravitate towards one stone rather than another in final build tweaks,
then do you agree more needs to be done to promote diversity prior to stone selection,
or are simply invested in the stone selection tacked on at the end

Personally like to role play to create a build, then min/max that to make it most effective at whatever it is specialized in
so, for me, stone selection has rarely been about nitpicking over a bit of damage

Am not going to purport to know what 'everyone' or even the 'average player' is like in terms of managing builds,
but am going to feel pretty safe in the presumption that a minority of the overall community goes nuts over their Mundus
hell, personally have characters who run a Mundus with no build benefit, simply due to what is their birth sign

Tho, given all your efforts regarding Stamina builds
how does Thief stack up on Magicka builds?
As it is both Weapon and Spell Critical, the best way to show it needs more benefit
would be to show that it is under-performing in all scenarios

If anything, would like to see Thief get an additional bonus tacked on that promotes its value in other styles of play
like +% bonus to pickpocketing chance

I am daddy mcMinMax, I'm talking with stone tacked on at the end. It may seem weird to some people on here going bananas over min maxing but we probably think the same about people who play casually. We all play the game differently and I'm pretty entitled to go [snip] over these changes.

[Edited for profanity]

xaraan

So, the PTS is there to test new changes before it goes live, so... a bunch of new changes are rolled out without testing right when the patch goes live. Makes sense.

Samadhi

ConnorWoods wrote: »

... I'm pretty entitled...

You said it, not me

You are free to get upset, am only attempting to 'stop' you as it is unproductive for you to do so
have already explained how to show the stone is underperforming -- if it is not coming up to measure in any scenario it is, in itself, not good enough

My personal desires regarding wanting to see other, non-combat, bonuses on Mundus
similar to the small non-combat passive buffs Racials got
is about promoting diversity of play, and thus diversity of builds

am having difficulty seeing the genuine build diversity in simply changing a Mundus to alter how much damage is done
fully respect that it is upsetting to you individually

STEVIL

gard wrote: »

Morgul667 wrote: »

As much as I find ZOS change things too drastically, the point of the PTS is to test things and correct them before going live

"test things" implies that the changes would be applied to the test server before patch day, doesn't it?

it is not normal here nor pretty much anywhere for the testing cycle to be continued until the last changes are tested. it is very common for the final real patch to contain changes based on the info gained during the last test cycle. usually these are small tweaks up or down or last minute bugs. its rare for them to be huge.

they are also most of the time based off the feedback and numbers gained.

So, would suddenly day of release adding a new system in be normal - nope.
Would day of release reverting a change or retuning a change be normal - yes.

if you look back at almost every PTS release for this game to date - that was the case for most every one so it should not come as a surprise.

but if this means the sudden swarm of buying up sorrws during pts are not now gonna reap the anticpated excessive benefits - well - jumping to conclusions is not always good policy.

Hamburglarjones

rabble rabble rabble

stevepdodson_ESO888

dpencil1 wrote: »

They took the work that Alcast and Gilliamtherogue did on the PTS seriously. They saw that the bonus to Crit was creating an environment where that was BiS, particularly pairing high crit chance sets with Shadow, and so decided to decrease the impact of those things. The set/mundus/trait bonuses were already incredibly close and now are likely even closer. It really looks like ZOS has taken the min/maxer crowd very seriously this patch. Min/maxers will always try to exploit whatever flaws in a system allow one build to overtake others. So the devs' job with balance is largely plugging holes the min/maxers would try to go through.

not entirely sure if, in a round about sort of way, you just called Alcast and Gilliam exploiters and cheaters

Tandor

ConnorWoods wrote: »

So I downloaded the PTS for Horns of The Reach as soon as it came out and enthusiastic as ever I set out to work out what would be best for my character... you know how the PTS is supposed to work.

I didn't bother to read beyond that total lack of comprehension as to how the PTS is supposed to work.

The PTS is for testing and providing feedback , not for getting a headstart on the other players on Live.

MLGProPlayer

I'm just disappointed that we're going back to the old meta. I was looking forward to a new gear setup.

ConnorWoods

Tandor wrote: »

ConnorWoods wrote: »

So I downloaded the PTS for Horns of The Reach as soon as it came out and enthusiastic as ever I set out to work out what would be best for my character... you know how the PTS is supposed to work.

I didn't bother to read beyond that total lack of comprehension as to how the PTS is supposed to work.

The PTS is for testing and providing feedback , not for getting a headstart on the other players on Live.

Is the PTS not free and open to all who have a PC?

Don't start with this cry baby "you used the PTS" argument again after the Morrowind Fiasco, the changes are there for me to make a decision on what I want to run next patch.

Especially when arguably the biggest changes this patch by a large margin were the gameplay changes.

KingJ

SirAndy wrote: »

ConnorWoods wrote: »

I set out to work out what would be best for my character... you know how the PTS is supposed to work.

That's not how the PTS is supposed to work at all.
It's *not* your personal sandbox so you can work out a character template for when the patch goes live.

It's a ZOS TEST server where they ask people to test and report bugs and errors for upcoming content before it goes live.

but then the bugs are still there onlive.

Dracofyre

want a truth? devs want players to die so fast that we cant heal ourselves if we solo mudcrabs

i went down in 3 seconds with mobs of 5 bandits, devs seriously nerfed the tank players and they are proud of it. they seem now watching players quiting as a new couintings of MMO exodus from eso.
to see it drop from 12 millions down to 500,000 players remaining, ouch what a drop.

i am sure the wallet warriors will seal their money away, no further buying on crown crates may speak volume loud.

note to devs, Players have reason why they leave from other games, so many producers and devs had been nerfing across so many games and players are fed up and seeking newer games where devs wont ever touch nerf bat.

Tandor

ConnorWoods wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

ConnorWoods wrote: »

So I downloaded the PTS for Horns of The Reach as soon as it came out and enthusiastic as ever I set out to work out what would be best for my character... you know how the PTS is supposed to work.

I didn't bother to read beyond that total lack of comprehension as to how the PTS is supposed to work.

The PTS is for testing and providing feedback , not for getting a headstart on the other players on Live.

Is the PTS not free and open to all who have a PC?

Don't start with this cry baby "you used the PTS" argument again after the Morrowind Fiasco, the changes are there for me to make a decision on what I want to run next patch.

Especially when arguably the biggest changes this patch by a large margin were the gameplay changes.

I find it ironic in the light of your original post that you should accuse me of being a "cry baby". I was just pointing out that the purpose of the Public Test Server is to test the changes and provide feedback on them, not to gain a headstart from them when they come to Live (and complain when the PTS changes don't all make it to Live as a result of the feedback others gave on them and the data ZOS derived from the testing).

If you just want to use the PTS to plan your future build/tactics and don't bother to read the bit about the changes on the PTS not necessarily indicating what will go Live, don't complain when you find you wasted your time because late changes were indeed made when the update went Live.

MehrunesFlagon

Samadhi wrote: »

ConnorWoods wrote: »

... I'm pretty entitled...

You said it, not me

You are free to get upset, am only attempting to 'stop' you as it is unproductive for you to do so
have already explained how to show the stone is underperforming -- if it is not coming up to measure in any scenario it is, in itself, not good enough

My personal desires regarding wanting to see other, non-combat, bonuses on Mundus
similar to the small non-combat passive buffs Racials got
is about promoting diversity of play, and thus diversity of builds

am having difficulty seeing the genuine build diversity in simply changing a Mundus to alter how much damage is done
fully respect that it is upsetting to you individually

Non combat is how we got terrible traits like training and prosperous.Everything should be combat related.

ConnorWoods

Tandor wrote: »

ConnorWoods wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

ConnorWoods wrote: »

So I downloaded the PTS for Horns of The Reach as soon as it came out and enthusiastic as ever I set out to work out what would be best for my character... you know how the PTS is supposed to work.

I didn't bother to read beyond that total lack of comprehension as to how the PTS is supposed to work.

The PTS is for testing and providing feedback , not for getting a headstart on the other players on Live.

Is the PTS not free and open to all who have a PC?

Don't start with this cry baby "you used the PTS" argument again after the Morrowind Fiasco, the changes are there for me to make a decision on what I want to run next patch.

Especially when arguably the biggest changes this patch by a large margin were the gameplay changes.

I find it ironic in the light of your original post that you should accuse me of being a "cry baby". I was just pointing out that the purpose of the Public Test Server is to test the changes and provide feedback on them, not to gain a headstart from them when they come to Live (and complain when the PTS changes don't all make it to Live as a result of the feedback others gave on them and the data ZOS derived from the testing).

If you just want to use the PTS to plan your future build/tactics and don't bother to read the bit about the changes on the PTS not necessarily indicating what will go Live, don't complain when you find you wasted your time because late changes were indeed made when the update went Live.

It seems to me like you're attempting to defend ZoS, who have a notorious record of late of changing their minds and not thinking things through, you don't in the slightest think it's a bit of a joke and a huge swing to increase crit passives by 55% and then decide 6 weeks later that they don't like it? They leave little to no justification on any of these changes. What was with the thief being double nerfed?, as well as the long list of things that are getting buffed, nerfed, buffed, changed, hell just look at viper and the fiasco of pvp.

As for the whole "PTS can change any time" argument, it's true but they've never done anything this drastic in the last weeks before. This is a complete and total U-turn of everything they've done so far and looks to me like they have no clue what they're doing.

Samadhi

MehrunesFlagon wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

ConnorWoods wrote: »

... I'm pretty entitled...

You said it, not me

You are free to get upset, am only attempting to 'stop' you as it is unproductive for you to do so
have already explained how to show the stone is underperforming -- if it is not coming up to measure in any scenario it is, in itself, not good enough

My personal desires regarding wanting to see other, non-combat, bonuses on Mundus
similar to the small non-combat passive buffs Racials got
is about promoting diversity of play, and thus diversity of builds

am having difficulty seeing the genuine build diversity in simply changing a Mundus to alter how much damage is done
fully respect that it is upsetting to you individually

Non combat is how we got terrible traits like training and prosperous.Everything should be combat related.

Training is frequently used in the leveling of alts or skill lines,
and the benefit only exists relative to combat (ie: from kills) rather than quests or lockpicking
Prosperous has been removed and replaced with regen tri-stat
time will tell if Invigorating becomes highly desired, or largely ignored

Your first sentence is not really in accord with your second sentence,
could you more clearly elucidate the point you are trying to make
and, perhaps, tie it to something relevant to my comment?
Such as the Racial passives that went from only buffing exp in one skill line
to additionally having a small flavour passive

Am not saying to remove the Crit passive from Thief,
but that adding an additional benefit can encourage it's use for players more generally
beyond picking and choosing between which stone makes number measurements slightly larger

STEVIL

MehrunesFlagon wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

ConnorWoods wrote: »

... I'm pretty entitled...

You said it, not me

You are free to get upset, am only attempting to 'stop' you as it is unproductive for you to do so
have already explained how to show the stone is underperforming -- if it is not coming up to measure in any scenario it is, in itself, not good enough

My personal desires regarding wanting to see other, non-combat, bonuses on Mundus
similar to the small non-combat passive buffs Racials got
is about promoting diversity of play, and thus diversity of builds

am having difficulty seeing the genuine build diversity in simply changing a Mundus to alter how much damage is done
fully respect that it is upsetting to you individually

Non combat is how we got terrible traits like training and prosperous.Everything should be combat related.

False logic and faulty conclusions.

Training is a good trait for its role, maybe BIS, maybe not.
Prosperous is a bad trait for its purpose, period.

There are more things in this game than combat so there should be more things that influence those other things.

Now, there is imo a good place between you and that you replied to.

It is VERY possible and reasonable to suggest that weapons and armor are not the best places to imbue so of these non combat bonuses, but there are plenty of things like stealth bonuses buried in armor or class or skill packages.

So its possible that mundus stones also could have some with combat and some with other.

bebynnag

ConnorWoods wrote: »

So I downloaded the PTS for Horns of The Reach as soon as it came out and enthusiastic as ever I set out to work out what would be best for my character... you know how the PTS is supposed to work. I have been posting videos on my channel frequently to offer feedback.

really?

i thought PTS was about checking new content/gear for bugs
checking old content/gear that have been changed for bugs
checking to make sure that new gear works as intended when paired with old gear (and vice versa)

never realised it was so PTS players could get hits on their youtube channels!

Fuxo

I am so glad that those cheesy meta builds (moar crit chance + moar crit damage) did not survive PTS. Anybody with 2 brain cells understands that something is not right if all magicka DPS builds use the same combination of sets. All those mathematically disabled kids have to wait now for somebody else to tell them what to use. As always. So everything is back to normal I guess. I also appreciate all the fixes to proc sets. Hopefully that will make some room for returning players in PvP.

SanTii.92

ConnorWoods wrote: »

bubbygink wrote: »

Where are the DPS parses showing that Warrior is superior to thief/shadow in every set up and by how much? Until I see testing I really can't have an a opinion on it either way. So far a lot of ranting but no testing or evidence.

I only have evidence so far for before the nerfs but it's pretty clear using the old data and the patch notes the warrior is better, Im on live now and it beat the thief and shadow by 1k minimum stretching up to 2k at a push.

I'll provide data on live when I've formatted it and it's nice to read but the old data is here



as you can see, left table is Hunding's rage, far from pen cap, right is Night mother's, closer to cap. The closer you get to the penetration gap the more the Warrior weighs up. This data was before nerfs so it's evident now it's gonna pull ahead.

Also look at precise, it barely beat sharpened before and now I think with 2% gone it's gonna be bad.

Not to discredit your work, but those numbers means nothing without you providing context from where they got from. Also mathematical evidence would help your case.

ConnorWoods

SanTii.92 wrote: »

ConnorWoods wrote: »

bubbygink wrote: »

Where are the DPS parses showing that Warrior is superior to thief/shadow in every set up and by how much? Until I see testing I really can't have an a opinion on it either way. So far a lot of ranting but no testing or evidence.

I only have evidence so far for before the nerfs but it's pretty clear using the old data and the patch notes the warrior is better, Im on live now and it beat the thief and shadow by 1k minimum stretching up to 2k at a push.

I'll provide data on live when I've formatted it and it's nice to read but the old data is here



as you can see, left table is Hunding's rage, far from pen cap, right is Night mother's, closer to cap. The closer you get to the penetration gap the more the Warrior weighs up. This data was before nerfs so it's evident now it's gonna pull ahead.

Also look at precise, it barely beat sharpened before and now I think with 2% gone it's gonna be bad.

Not to discredit your work, but those numbers means nothing without you providing context from where they got from. Also mathematical evidence would help your case.

I did a post on this a while ago

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/358976/stamina-templar-precise-vs-sharpened-and-mundus-stones-compared

ConnorWoods

Fuxo wrote: »

I am so glad that those cheesy meta builds (moar crit chance + moar crit damage) did not survive PTS. Anybody with 2 brain cells understands that something is not right if all magicka DPS builds use the same combination of sets. All those mathematically disabled kids have to wait now for somebody else to tell them what to use. As always. So everything is back to normal I guess. I also appreciate all the fixes to proc sets. Hopefully that will make some room for returning players in PvP.

So all magicka running the same sets... kinda like idk... Burning Spellweave Meta? and before that TBS? your logic is flawed

ConnorWoods

puffytheslayer wrote: »

ConnorWoods wrote: »

So I downloaded the PTS for Horns of The Reach as soon as it came out and enthusiastic as ever I set out to work out what would be best for my character... you know how the PTS is supposed to work. I have been posting videos on my channel frequently to offer feedback.

really?

i thought PTS was about checking new content/gear for bugs
checking old content/gear that have been changed for bugs
checking to make sure that new gear works as intended when paired with old gear (and vice versa)

never realised it was so PTS players could get hits on their youtube channels!

Evidently we were there to test the impact of the new stones and traits otherwise how would they have known to change anything in the first place? The PTS was for testing changes, these include gameplay as well as bugs, please gtfo with that stupid argument being churned out time and time again

Bonzodog01

Woah...so back up a second.

Is it me or are you really panicking over 1K DPS? 1K?????

REALLY??

In any Trials situation, that 1K is not a make or break. If it was 5K or more, then yes, I could see where you are coming from.

But 1-1.5K DPS is nothing. Hell, you'll lose 1K or more even with absolute BiS if you break rotation just once and hit the wrong key.

Seriously, this actually proves that the field is more or less flat now between the Thief, Shadow and Warrior.

This is all panicking over nothing dude. Get over yourself, chill out, take a deep breath and be relieved that its only 1K between your theorised setup and everything else.

Biro123

Wow.

Zos really can't win, can they.

They don't change stuff as a result of pts feedback, people complain.

They do change stuff, oh, people still complaining.

brandonv516

Bugs make it into the PC live version because the PTS is primarily used for people's own self advancement (like the entitled OP) rather than its intended purpose.

On behalf of all console players I would like to thank those who actually test for bugs before they make it to PC live...and another thanks to those who find bugs before they make it to console.

ConnorWoods

Bonzodog01 wrote: »

Woah...so back up a second.

Is it me or are you really panicking over 1K DPS? 1K?????

REALLY??

In any Trials situation, that 1K is not a make or break. If it was 5K or more, then yes, I could see where you are coming from.

But 1-1.5K DPS is nothing. Hell, you'll lose 1K or more even with absolute BiS if you break rotation just once and hit the wrong key.

Seriously, this actually proves that the field is more or less flat now between the Thief, Shadow and Warrior.

This is all panicking over nothing dude. Get over yourself, chill out, take a deep breath and be relieved that its only 1K between your theorised setup and everything else.

1k completely 100% self buffed,

ConnorWoods

Bonzodog01 wrote: »

Woah...so back up a second.

Is it me or are you really panicking over 1K DPS? 1K?????

REALLY??

In any Trials situation, that 1K is not a make or break. If it was 5K or more, then yes, I could see where you are coming from.

But 1-1.5K DPS is nothing. Hell, you'll lose 1K or more even with absolute BiS if you break rotation just once and hit the wrong key.

Seriously, this actually proves that the field is more or less flat now between the Thief, Shadow and Warrior.

This is all panicking over nothing dude. Get over yourself, chill out, take a deep breath and be relieved that its only 1K between your theorised setup and everything else.

and that 1k is just the stones, I'm hitting 4k lower overall than I was before todays changes... 100% self buffed, gonna be higher

ConnorWoods

brandonv516 wrote: »

Bugs make it into the PC live version because the PTS is primarily used for people's own self advancement (like the entitled OP) rather than its intended purpose.

On behalf of all console players I would like to thank those who actually test for bugs before they make it to PC live...and another thanks to those who find bugs before they make it to console.

If it weren't for people like me who do this stuff then how would they have known 55% on the crit passives for example, was too powerful, gameplay balances and changes are just as important in the PTS cycle as bug reports.

If you read my original post thoroughly before deciding to be another drone, then you'd realise I only disapproved of the mundus stones being changed, all of my anger goes directly to the timing in which this was done.

dsalter

it's called a TEST server not a TRIAL server... it's there for fixing bugs not finding exploits and build ideas before live.

ConnorWoods

dsalter wrote: »

it's called a TEST server not a TRIAL server... it's there for fixing bugs not finding exploits and build ideas before live.

where in any of my posts have I ever used an exploit?