What was the point Zenimax?

ConnorWoods

I'll start with a question then give you some personal feedback. What was the point of the 6 week PTS period when you decide that you don't like something on patch day and dish out nerfs? without any prior warning?

So I downloaded the PTS for Horns of The Reach as soon as it came out and enthusiastic as ever I set out to work out what would be best for my character... you know how the PTS is supposed to work. I have been posting videos on my channel frequently to offer feedback on what I think are good changes to the stones and traits as well as offering insight into this on your own public forums. I was compliant in showing how broken Torug's Pact was and called for it's nerf with everyone else because it was needed.

What isn't needed however is un called for changes on the day of the patch throwing everything I worked for in the trash can.

I just wanna make it crystal clear however that in your efforts to balance the stones on the final patch day you've actually just removed the diversity altogether when nerfing the shadow and thief stones as now the warrior is now going to over perform over the other 2 by a noticeable margin.

I liked having the option to choose my stone on different stamina variants, if you did the maths the Thief was BiS for Stam DKs and Stam Sorcs and Shadow was best for Nightblades and Templars, Warrior was great for PvP and now it's all wrecked, you're gonna see a meta of Warrior users.

The nerfs aren't even the worst bit, I can handle changes, but all those hours I've pumped in have been completely wasted, and you've yet again demonstrated how incompetent and out of touch you really are with your fan base.

Next time I'm just gonna go ahead and refrain from using the PTS as who knows? Wrobel is gonna decide what I have made is too powerful and strike forth his nerf hammer.

Stop with the constant mind changing on every topic you seem to address because you're hurting the game we all so very much love to play.

NuclearPath

A lot of the last minute nerfs they made really suck, shouldve done it in 3.1.4 if they really needed to, now they just ended up killing my mood to actually play eso because I know I have to rethink everything again after already testing for a while and finding a decent setup for myself...

Morgul667

As much as I find ZOS change things too drastically, the point of the PTS is to test things and correct them before going live

ConnorWoods

Not gonna lie, the nerfs are so bad, I did a build video yesterday thinking this was the last set of patch notes (you know how last week PTS notes usually are) and it's so bad I'm gonna take down the video and do it again. It's just painful

SodanTok

So I downloaded the PTS for Horns of The Reach as soon as it came out and enthusiastic as ever I set out to work out what would be best for my character... you know how the PTS is supposed to work.

Actually, not.
Unless you mean to figure out what is best so they can compare it with other stuff and decide to 'unbest' it

ConnorWoods

SodanTok wrote: »

So I downloaded the PTS for Horns of The Reach as soon as it came out and enthusiastic as ever I set out to work out what would be best for my character... you know how the PTS is supposed to work.

Actually, not.

So testing huge drastic changes to gameplay is not what you're supposed to?

[snip]
[edited to remove baiting comments]

Vapirko

Yeah, nowhere does it say or should it be assumed that everything in PTS goes live. The key letter being "t" for "test." If you went out and spent a ton of money on new weapons that sucks, if you didn't then back to the drawing board. Shouldnt you be happy? Doesnt this give you more content to put out?

GodHawk

What a bunch of liers, seriously. Why install PTS to test stuff if is not worth it in end.

UrbanMonk

SodanTok

ConnorWoods wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

So I downloaded the PTS for Horns of The Reach as soon as it came out and enthusiastic as ever I set out to work out what would be best for my character... you know how the PTS is supposed to work.

Actually, not.

So testing huge drastic changes to gameplay is not what you're supposed to?

gtfo here with that Zenimax loving s**t

I edited the post. If that still goes against your vision, then you probably need to fix your vision

Ulfgarde

ConnorWoods wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

So I downloaded the PTS for Horns of The Reach as soon as it came out and enthusiastic as ever I set out to work out what would be best for my character... you know how the PTS is supposed to work.

Actually, not.

So testing huge drastic changes to gameplay is not what you're supposed to?

gtfo here with that Zenimax loving s**t

Was going to post something responding to your points but now I just realize you're just blind by anger and frustration (which I can understand, but not vouch for) and not really into talking about things constructively.

Why make a thread about this if you're going to beat down the opposition like that? Come on now

dpencil1

They took the work that Alcast and Gilliamtherogue did on the PTS seriously. They saw that the bonus to Crit was creating an environment where that was BiS, particularly pairing high crit chance sets with Shadow, and so decided to decrease the impact of those things. The set/mundus/trait bonuses were already incredibly close and now are likely even closer. It really looks like ZOS has taken the min/maxer crowd very seriously this patch. Min/maxers will always try to exploit whatever flaws in a system allow one build to overtake others. So the devs' job with balance is largely plugging holes the min/maxers would try to go through.

casparian

I just wanna make it crystal clear however that in your efforts to balance the stones on the final patch day you've actually just removed the diversity altogether when nerfing the shadow and thief stones as now the warrior is now going to over perform over the other 2 by a noticeable margin.

I liked having the option to choose my stone on different stamina variants, if you did the maths the Thief was BiS for Stam DKs and Stam Sorcs and Shadow was best for Nightblades and Templars, Warrior was great for PvP and now it's all wrecked, you're gonna see a meta of Warrior users.

Agreed, this really doesn't make any sense. The explicit aim of these changes was to improve diversity in builds, and we had that on PTS. Relatively simple math shows that the changes they made today (without the opportunity for players to test) significantly reduce that diversity, at least when it comes to stamina DPS. Some of today's changes were pro-diversity (like the nerf to Mother's Sorrow -- I'm glad we won't have an entire raid of 8 DDs wearing Juli and Sorrow now). But nerfing Shadow without giving players any opportunity to test is overkill for the Mother's Sorrow meta and completely wrecks stam diversity.

I'm mystified. What were they thinking?

Yamenstein

So much butt hurt. Sorry peeps no sympathy to yah. The nerfs suck, no doubt about it, and I can imagine it is unexpected and it does change plans. But it's PTS, they give us all warning from the start that anything can change.

Have to be smart about it, and this is just a video game! Imagine what's going to happen when it starts affecting your real life.

ConnorWoods

The changes aren't whats making me mad, the timing is. I spent so much time perfecting my characters as did everyone and now it's thrown up in the air. Not even a reason why in the patch notes, just a giant "who cares, we know better"

Ryan1704

I just dont like the fact that they keep nerfing the 'bis' set up because at the end of the day no matter how hard they try there will aways be the best set up even if its only by 100 dps. The term best in slot is the real problem as people assume the best is miles ahead of the rest which isnt always true

elfantasmo

It's pointless but i'll add my piece... PTS should not be for theory crafting and using your user base to prove or disprove BIS and META so that you can review and nerf/buff before it goes live. PTS should not be for testing and dry running new content so world first guilds can jump on the live after months of trialling and gain world first achievements. PTS should not be for testing and finding new exploits and bugs for use on the live server. It should not affect the global trade markets on the live servers for anticipated BIS sets/items etc.

PTS should be removed and ZOS should QA their patches. There I said it.

ConnorWoods

I made this when the PTS came out, look at the right table with NMG, meaning you add up your penetration in group content and get the buff NMG was giving you and the Warrior will be the best.

It almost beat the Thief and Shadow pre nerf lmao.

Look closely at precise and Sharpened now too, taking away 2% will mean Precise is weaker than sharpened, creating a greater chance for BiS to emerge again.

There's no doubt diversity just got killed

DCanadianBacon

Morgul667 wrote: »

As much as I find ZOS change things too drastically, the point of the PTS is to test things and correct them before going live

Sure, but this patch was rolled out with so many expectation flipped on their head, and we never got time to properly test them. I get that things are subject to change from the PTS to the Live servers, but this was pretty ridiculous. Many people were plenty excited about this patch the way it was progressing.

Now that expectations have been dashed from the PTS to Live, this patch feels just as deflating as previous ones, rather than being received with open arms by the majority of players who gave a crap.

Narvuntien

We did test it...

We found that precise, mothers sorrow, Shadow stone combos were too strong.

so they got nerfed.

They dealt with infused the patch notes before. All in all there are now three weapon traits I am happy to loot (sharpened, infused and precise).

I am a stamina shadow stone user so I am dissappointed in the nerf as it is clearly targeted at mag users. Warrior as noted above is not too bad.. the issue is that shadow was the only way counter act impen in PVP.

ConnorWoods

Narvuntien wrote: »

We did test it...

We found that precise, mothers sorrow, Shadow stone combos were too strong.

so they got nerfed.

They dealt with infused the patch notes before. All in all there are now three weapon traits I am happy to loot (sharpened, infused and precise).

I am a stamina shadow stone user so I am dissappointed in the nerf as it is clearly targeted at mag users. Warrior as noted above is not too bad.. the issue is that shadow was the only way counter act impen in PVP.

Speaking purely from a stamina DD perspective the Thief and Shadow were so damn close the 10% templar passive actually tipped the balance. Thats how close it was.

noW it's "hey you use melee? WARRIOR WARRIOR WARRIOR"

DHale

I have hated every nerf since the beginning of the game. That said, when you are qq ing, complaining, bitching, moaning, or offering "constructive" feedback. Please be very specific. For every nerf that that makes people happy there are 10 others that are now mad. Neither ZOS nor fellow players can possibly know what you are thinking. But one thing is for sure most people who ask for nerfs are not very good players.

I stopped pugging dungeons, I cannot stand to see people roll dodging nothing and light attacking bosses and mobs and the air... anymore. You or ZOS will never raise the floor or lower the ceiling as long as bad players never get any better.

Dymence

Narvuntien wrote: »

We did test it...

We found that precise, mothers sorrow, Shadow stone combos were too strong.

so they got nerfed.

They dealt with infused the patch notes before. All in all there are now three weapon traits I am happy to loot (sharpened, infused and precise).

I am a stamina shadow stone user so I am dissappointed in the nerf as it is clearly targeted at mag users. Warrior as noted above is not too bad.. the issue is that shadow was the only way counter act impen in PVP.

Reverting the 2% on precise just makes it flat out worse again. So that makes only 2 weapon traits worthwhile.

Beardimus

The point was to test / get feedback surely and thus react to it. What can they do. Its a self fulfilling problem when forums / reddit push a new meta before its even launched.

Drakhaon

They also nerf the critik given by 2/3/4 trait : 828 instead of 1000+

Sylosi

Maybe learn the lesson PTS is for testing changes, etc not for you to "perfect your character" before the patch is even released.

Scyantific

Beardimus wrote: »

The point was to test / get feedback surely and thus react to it. What can they do. Its a self fulfilling problem when forums / reddit push a new meta before its even launched.

This man speaks 100% truth. PTS is for testing and making sure everything works properly, not for using it as a personal meta development laboratory.

Don't get me wrong, I got mad respect for @Alcast and @Gilliamtherogue for putting in the work to test stuff like this, because no one else goes around doing it.

HOWEVER, if you're gonna go around proclaiming new metas and BIS before the actual patch hits live then you can damn well expect a change at the last minute.

ConnorWoods

Scyantific wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

The point was to test / get feedback surely and thus react to it. What can they do. Its a self fulfilling problem when forums / reddit push a new meta before its even launched.

This man speaks 100% truth. PTS is for testing and making sure everything works properly, not for using it as a personal meta development laboratory.

Don't get me wrong, I got mad respect for @Alcast and @Gilliamtherogue for putting in the work to test stuff like this, because no one else goes around doing it.

HOWEVER, if you're gonna go around proclaiming new metas and BIS before the actual patch hits live then you can damn well expect a change at the last minute.

If you guys actually tested your own things instead of waiting for youtubers to do it all for you then you'd realise before today Zenimax had balance perfect. When the PTS launched the difference between all traits and stones was like 1000 maximum, now it's gone. There's going to be a BiS and if you think that the PTS isn't for me to test the HUGE changes to stones and traits, then you're deluded.

generalmyrick

i love the game, every patch, every change! you guys are something else....my youtube video, my this, my that! if you loved the game and making builds and stats, this would just be more fun for you....more practice.

ConnorWoods

generalmyrick wrote: »

i love the game, every patch, every change! you guys are something else....my youtube video, my this, my that! if you loved the game and making builds and stats, this would just be more fun for you....more practice.

Did you actually read anything I put? lmfao

They had balance in their hands, it was finally happening

Now it's gone, there's gonna be a definitive BiS. And you'll all be crying "WHY IS THERE NO BALANCE"

VampiricByNature

I feel like they directly nerfed the builds and ideas theorycrafters gave us. I hope this doesn't cause people to stop sharing information. The community sharing is part of what makes this game fun for me. I love reading ideas and builds as much as testing my own.

Morrowind felt like a solid patch that created diversity. Horns of the Reach feels like steps backwards to me. I know we will adapt but this is extraordinarily frustrating.