The Gold Road Chapter – which includes the Scribing system – and Update 42 is now available to test on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/656454/
[PvE] Stamina needs to be balanced ASAP
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Darkdex✭✭✭Where is the lol button?
I mean, seriously, even if your claim is right (23% dps difference, ST), how much AoE DPS do magicka classes have over stamina ones? 50%? 75%?
It is clear than the balance is good on this patch, the trial groups have 2-4 stam DDs and the rest is magicka, or do you miss the times when there were only mag DDs on the raid groups?
Do you want to have almost the same dps as a stam char, with 15k+ shields, at range, with 50% or more AoE DPS? Anything else?
And, for the love of God, you are comparing with @Alcast , a top end raider, where did you get that 23%? Comparison with some other player? O with a magsorc is his very same group?
One final that thing, Alcast even said that his mates haven't figured out the perfect build yet, so that DPS gap, which I doubt is that high, can be reduced.
First of all, shields are rarely used, not spammed as many of you claim. Second, the parses I've compared were both from Alcast (but even on live, stam parses show greater dps potential already). Third, stam aoe is not that bad, but even with their lower aoe damage, their overall dps is definitely higher. Also aoe is not that important, single target dps is the most important (you want to kill the boss...). Many of you just ignored how stamina sustain is infinite and effortless, why don't you care about that?
First, I didn't say anything about Shield being spammed, the survability of Magicka classes come because they have the "oh sh*t button", that's the strenght. Second, even if stamina classes, as you claim, have that *** ton of DPS, is because of the infused bug, that will be fixed in the next patches, until then, deal with it, Magicka have been over the top for almost a year. Third, AoE is not important? Then please show us a raid group with full Stam DDs (even on the Stack-and-.burn trials), because in my experience (and I think most of the people will agree) we spend the most of the time in the trials fighting trash, the boss fights, once learned, require a lot less time than the trash.
Stamina sustain, infinite? Effortless? Maybe you are talking ONLY about Stam DKs because the can heavy attack everything with the buff that class has, but hey!, let's QQ about all stamina classes out there because they can heavy attack everything (just as we can, with AoE potential from shock staves) and have enough sustain, let's nerf them because they can pull higher DPS than Magicka even if they also need pay attention more closely to mechanics, to stay aware of the Red AoE even with those grothdar, Destro ults, blockades and LL on the floor, to dodge roll at the right moment!
And yes, I saw those parses posted by @Yoltab1379 , however that is not a fair comparison, if anyone is going to compare parses those parses MUST be from the SAME run for the sake of CONSISTENCY, not from different runs, where thing can differ from each other.
I agree with the Risk/Reward argument, and if you consider that the DPS difference is THAT huge at this moment, please, stop this nonsense until Infused is fixed, if you PROVE that after that fix the difference between STAMINA and MAGICKA classes (not just stamDK) is that huge, then you can complain about nerfing them.3 -
SanTii.92✭✭✭✭✭
✭Melee should always parse higher than range on stationary targets, simply cause it involves more risk and usually there are mechanics to prevent melee stacking. Issue is tho that mdks and mtemplars are parsing way to low. Well and mag wardens ofc.When the snows fall and the white winds blow,
the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives.
Arg | Pc Na | Factionless Mag Warden.2 -
Destruent✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Seems more like magdk, magtemp and magblade need a buff in pve. Magsorc seems fine. Balance is good when you have 50/50 stam mag and a mix of classes imo. Atm seems like 50/50 but mostly mag sorcs as mag dps correct?
Balance is good, if you can fill spots needed and how the players want. If you want 4/4 melee/ranged for your team it shouldn't matter who is stam and who's magicka...atm it matters a lot.Noobplar1 -
Bladerunner1✭✭✭✭So a Magsorc can deal 50k DPS while tending to duties and such, and a Stamplar can deal 60 kdps. It doesn't seem like a meaningful comparison, even so the dps difference almost fits the percentages requested in this thread, sort of:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/344566/zos-adjust-melee-dps-to-do-more-than-ranged-risk-reward/p1
Stam melee DPS is as squishy as ever, how much more DPS should they be getting in your opinion?Edited by Bladerunner1 on August 10, 2017 8:20PM0 -
AlcastClass RepresentativeUpdate 15 hits mag a lot harder than stam, and because of this, a stamdk's dps can be around 23% higher than a magsorc's dps, but stam sustain is infinite. I know that stam DDs can't really have a 100% uptime on bosses, but still the dps difference is way too high. Also this is for PvE and based on alcast's new builds.
get your facts straight
We have fully optimized stamina setups. NMG, Sunderflame, Morag Tong. OBVIOUSLY we gonna do more damage.Edited by Alcast on August 10, 2017 9:01PMhttps://alcasthq.com - Alcasthq.com Builds & Guides
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Yoltab1379✭✭Bladerunner1 wrote: »So a Magsorc can deal 50k DPS while tending to duties and such, and a Stamplar can deal 60 kdps. It doesn't seem like a meaningful comparison, even so the dps difference almost fits the percentages requested in this thread, sort of:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/344566/zos-adjust-melee-dps-to-do-more-than-ranged-risk-reward/p1
Stam melee DPS is as squishy as ever, how much more DPS should they be getting in your opinion?
Regarding the parses: sure the AOE damage is 10k in the difference but the single target difference is higher. A fairer comparison is the varlariel fight where it is essentially a target dummy. A stamina DK off tank who learnt the rotation off the day before can instantly pull higher single than me. Is that fair to you?
And as for stam melee being squishy. There is no risk reward, Blade Cloak is incredibly powerful making stamina more durable to magicka. There is no point in casting a shield when you have been one shot by a mechanic because you cannot cast the shield. You're dead.
On top of this it is not as simple as Magicka = Range and Stamina = Melee. Right now the melee magicka classes of old: MagPlar & MagDKs are extremely unwelcome in trials right now because they take a melee spot but pull 10-15k less single target. Not to mention MagDKs are incredibly reliant on high off balance to even have a hope of competing. These melee magicka classes have less sustain and survivability vs stam classes. What is the point of these classes? Sure you can bring up the argument of stamina being weaker in previous patches but is that truly how you think it should work? stamina being king one patch and magicka the next?
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Dymence✭✭✭✭✭
✭The main thing is Endless Hail. That skill is just broken as hell and needs serious nerfs.
EDIT: Just look at the stamina parses provided on first page and stamina parses on videos out there. Endless Hail is absolutely out of control in terms of DPS contribution, and the ground target size of the AOE is huge.Edited by Dymence on August 10, 2017 11:58PM0 -
DeliCreep✭✭✭Update 15 hits mag a lot harder than stam, and because of this, a stamdk's dps can be around 23% higher than a magsorc's dps, but stam sustain is infinite. I know that stam DDs can't really have a 100% uptime on bosses, but still the dps difference is way too high. Also this is for PvE and based on alcast's new builds.
get your facts straight
We have fully optimized stamina setups. NMG, Sunderflame, Morag Tong. OBVIOUSLY we gonna do more damage.
Yes, but even solo parses seem to be noticeably higher. Also do sets like those exist for magicka?Immortal Redeemer1 -
Concret✭✭✭Remember one patch ago, when stam. did more or less the same DPS as magicka, no stam were seen in trial (nerf sorc !).
Have a look at morrowind, where stam do more single target dps than magicka but with less suviability (in non top guild is still hard to survive as a stam within trial), we can see a great class diversity within trial.1 -
Toc de Malsvi✭✭✭✭✭
✭The main thing is Endless Hail. That skill is just broken as hell and needs serious nerfs.
EDIT: Just look at the stamina parses provided on first page and stamina parses on videos out there. Endless Hail is absolutely out of control in terms of DPS contribution, and the ground target size of the AOE is huge.
LOL
Clearly not using Endless Hail if you think the ground target size is huge.Legendary Archer of ValenwoodBosmer Dragon Knight Archer. XBox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Nightblade Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Sorcerer Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Warden Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Templar's are evil..5 -
LtBottle✭✭✭Update 15 hits mag a lot harder than stam, and because of this, a stamdk's dps can be around 23% higher than a magsorc's dps, but stam sustain is infinite. I know that stam DDs can't really have a 100% uptime on bosses, but still the dps difference is way too high. Also this is for PvE and based on alcast's new builds.
get your facts straight
We have fully optimized stamina setups. NMG, Sunderflame, Morag Tong. OBVIOUSLY we gonna do more damage.
Yes, but even solo parses seem to be noticeably higher. Also do sets like those exist for magicka?
No set like those exist for magicka because magicka got his own penetration via light armor passive, which do no exist on stamina.
No one would use them anyway because heavy overpenetration1 -
Draqone✭✭✭✭There is good class diversity in trials at the moment, and if the execute fixes go through, buffing magicka templar and mag NB, i would say all classes will be trial viable.
StamNB will still be the worst in terms of survivibility/utility but they have very high theoretical single target DPS and are somewhat overperforming in pvp.ESO Balance:
“All skills are equal, but some skills are more equal than others.”4 -
Gamanoid✭✭✭The main thing is Endless Hail. That skill is just broken as hell and needs serious nerfs.
EDIT: Just look at the stamina parses provided on first page and stamina parses on videos out there. Endless Hail is absolutely out of control in terms of DPS contribution, and the ground target size of the AOE is huge.
A few things to consider:
Endless hail in terms of damage is about the same as elemental blockade. (When also factoring in the cost, size and ability to apply status effects)
Those super high numbers are from the vMA Bow; now before you call for nerfs to vMA bow, you should realise the vMA staff on magicka basically gives the same amount of dps increase.
You have to factor in the almost doubled damage your light and heavy attacks weaves get and add that to the tooltip of elemental blockade.
Unfortunately people don't consider this when looking at their parses. If they could stack, you'd see eleblockade + boosted part of weaves approximately equal vma empowered endless hail.
Only then will you be comparing apples to apples.3 -
Zer0oo✭✭✭✭✭
✭The main thing is Endless Hail. That skill is just broken as hell and needs serious nerfs.
EDIT: Just look at the stamina parses provided on first page and stamina parses on videos out there. Endless Hail is absolutely out of control in terms of DPS contribution, and the ground target size of the AOE is huge.
It is not endless hail as ability that is broken, it is msa bow and infused on the main bar that buffs the skill so extrem high.
- Update 23Ice Furnace: This item set now grants Spell Damage, rather than Weapon Damage for the 4 piece bonus1 -
Jeckll✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I dont see it being a Balance issue Stamina vs Magicka.
Big reason Stamina can perform very well in trials is the ability to syergize multiple StamDPS with utility sets like NMG, Sunder, MT, PA, WM. This allows Stamina players in well organized groups to parse insanely well.
In a lesser organized group, the differences are way smaller.
And lets be reasonable here: There wont be 8 StamDPS raids any time soon as range DPS is required where Stamina sucks at. Also all the juicy AoE stuff Magicka can do coupled with the utility lightning walls. So while its perfecly viable to run a full Magicka setup with just a bit lesser DPS, running full Stamina has multiple issues why it would be way more challenging, annoying and frankly speaking worse.
To conclude: maybe StamDK pulls a bit too much in comparison, maybe Magplar needs a buff. But its definitely not an issue that can be called "Stamina needs a nerf asap".Edited by Jeckll on August 11, 2017 10:21AMJeckll has quit the game. Thanks for the great time.13 -
Dymence✭✭✭✭✭
✭Toc de Malsvi wrote: »The main thing is Endless Hail. That skill is just broken as hell and needs serious nerfs.
EDIT: Just look at the stamina parses provided on first page and stamina parses on videos out there. Endless Hail is absolutely out of control in terms of DPS contribution, and the ground target size of the AOE is huge.
LOL
Clearly not using Endless Hail if you think the ground target size is huge.
It's bigger than Liquid Lightning which is the strongest magicka DoT and yet it gives only half the DPS that Endless Hail does.The main thing is Endless Hail. That skill is just broken as hell and needs serious nerfs.
EDIT: Just look at the stamina parses provided on first page and stamina parses on videos out there. Endless Hail is absolutely out of control in terms of DPS contribution, and the ground target size of the AOE is huge.
A few things to consider:
Endless hail in terms of damage is about the same as elemental blockade. (When also factoring in the cost, size and ability to apply status effects)
Those super high numbers are from the vMA Bow; now before you call for nerfs to vMA bow, you should realise the vMA staff on magicka basically gives the same amount of dps increase.
You have to factor in the almost doubled damage your light and heavy attacks weaves get and add that to the tooltip of elemental blockade.
Unfortunately people don't consider this when looking at their parses. If they could stack, you'd see eleblockade + boosted part of weaves approximately equal vma empowered endless hail.
Only then will you be comparing apples to apples.
The vMA staff does not nearly contribute as much as the vMA bow. If you were to take my above example again, Liquid Lightning as the strongest magicka DoT, take a DPS parse and add the DPS from Liquid Lightning, light attacks and heavy attacks together you would still fall short of or barely break even the DPS output of Endless Hail. And I don't think I need to mention that the vMA staff only boosts a small portion of your weaves' DPS.0 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Update 15 hits mag a lot harder than stam, and because of this, a stamdk's dps can be around 23% higher than a magsorc's dps, but stam sustain is infinite. I know that stam DDs can't really have a 100% uptime on bosses, but still the dps difference is way too high. Also this is for PvE and based on alcast's new builds.
Uh.
Stam sustain is infinite? Wut?
StamDK's mostly run heavy attack builds. Of course they have good sustain. Magsorcs can also run heavy attack builds and have the same sustain.
But on a stamblade or stamplar, where the heavy attack build doesn't make sense, sustain is most definitely not infinite.
Stam DPS is *finally* viable again after months and months of being totally left out of the raid meta, and now you want nerfs? No stam build has anywhere near the AoE DPS or the survivability that a magsorc has.7 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Update 15 hits mag a lot harder than stam, and because of this, a stamdk's dps can be around 23% higher than a magsorc's dps, but stam sustain is infinite. I know that stam DDs can't really have a 100% uptime on bosses, but still the dps difference is way too high. Also this is for PvE and based on alcast's new builds.
get your facts straight
We have fully optimized stamina setups. NMG, Sunderflame, Morag Tong. OBVIOUSLY we gonna do more damage.
Yes, but even solo parses seem to be noticeably higher. Also do sets like those exist for magicka?
Do stam DPS get 5k penetration as a passive?7 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Toc de Malsvi wrote: »The main thing is Endless Hail. That skill is just broken as hell and needs serious nerfs.
EDIT: Just look at the stamina parses provided on first page and stamina parses on videos out there. Endless Hail is absolutely out of control in terms of DPS contribution, and the ground target size of the AOE is huge.
LOL
Clearly not using Endless Hail if you think the ground target size is huge.
It's bigger than Liquid Lightning which is the strongest magicka DoT and yet it gives only half the DPS that Endless Hail does.The main thing is Endless Hail. That skill is just broken as hell and needs serious nerfs.
EDIT: Just look at the stamina parses provided on first page and stamina parses on videos out there. Endless Hail is absolutely out of control in terms of DPS contribution, and the ground target size of the AOE is huge.
A few things to consider:
Endless hail in terms of damage is about the same as elemental blockade. (When also factoring in the cost, size and ability to apply status effects)
Those super high numbers are from the vMA Bow; now before you call for nerfs to vMA bow, you should realise the vMA staff on magicka basically gives the same amount of dps increase.
You have to factor in the almost doubled damage your light and heavy attacks weaves get and add that to the tooltip of elemental blockade.
Unfortunately people don't consider this when looking at their parses. If they could stack, you'd see eleblockade + boosted part of weaves approximately equal vma empowered endless hail.
Only then will you be comparing apples to apples.
The vMA staff does not nearly contribute as much as the vMA bow. If you were to take my above example again, Liquid Lightning as the strongest magicka DoT, take a DPS parse and add the DPS from Liquid Lightning, light attacks and heavy attacks together you would still fall short of or barely break even the DPS output of Endless Hail. And I don't think I need to mention that the vMA staff only boosts a small portion of your weaves' DPS.
@Dymence
Endless Hail does double the DPS of Liquid Lightning, eh?
I challenge you to post some Combat Metrics parses to prove that (hint: you can't).
Endless Hail does about 8-10k DPS on a skeleton parse and 10-12k DPS in a fairly static raid parse. So you're saying that Liquid Lightning only does about 4-6k DPS?
Hmmm.Edited by LiquidPony on August 11, 2017 3:19PM3 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Update 15 hits mag a lot harder than stam, and because of this, a stamdk's dps can be around 23% higher than a magsorc's dps, but stam sustain is infinite. I know that stam DDs can't really have a 100% uptime on bosses, but still the dps difference is way too high. Also this is for PvE and based on alcast's new builds.
get your facts straight
We have fully optimized stamina setups. NMG, Sunderflame, Morag Tong. OBVIOUSLY we gonna do more damage.
@Alcast I'm guessing you're running Sunderflame on a stamDK (that's what we're doing), but what about Morag Tong? That on a stamDK too? Same one that's running Sunderflame or do you guys have 2 stamDKs right now (e.g., one is Hunding's + Sunderflame and the other is Hunding's + Morag Tong?)0 -
Dymence✭✭✭✭✭
✭LiquidPony wrote: »Toc de Malsvi wrote: »The main thing is Endless Hail. That skill is just broken as hell and needs serious nerfs.
EDIT: Just look at the stamina parses provided on first page and stamina parses on videos out there. Endless Hail is absolutely out of control in terms of DPS contribution, and the ground target size of the AOE is huge.
LOL
Clearly not using Endless Hail if you think the ground target size is huge.
It's bigger than Liquid Lightning which is the strongest magicka DoT and yet it gives only half the DPS that Endless Hail does.The main thing is Endless Hail. That skill is just broken as hell and needs serious nerfs.
EDIT: Just look at the stamina parses provided on first page and stamina parses on videos out there. Endless Hail is absolutely out of control in terms of DPS contribution, and the ground target size of the AOE is huge.
A few things to consider:
Endless hail in terms of damage is about the same as elemental blockade. (When also factoring in the cost, size and ability to apply status effects)
Those super high numbers are from the vMA Bow; now before you call for nerfs to vMA bow, you should realise the vMA staff on magicka basically gives the same amount of dps increase.
You have to factor in the almost doubled damage your light and heavy attacks weaves get and add that to the tooltip of elemental blockade.
Unfortunately people don't consider this when looking at their parses. If they could stack, you'd see eleblockade + boosted part of weaves approximately equal vma empowered endless hail.
Only then will you be comparing apples to apples.
The vMA staff does not nearly contribute as much as the vMA bow. If you were to take my above example again, Liquid Lightning as the strongest magicka DoT, take a DPS parse and add the DPS from Liquid Lightning, light attacks and heavy attacks together you would still fall short of or barely break even the DPS output of Endless Hail. And I don't think I need to mention that the vMA staff only boosts a small portion of your weaves' DPS.
@Dymence
Endless Hail does double the DPS of Liquid Lightning, eh?
I challenge you to post some Combat Metrics parses to prove that (hint: you can't).
Endless Hail does about 8-10k DPS on a skeleton parse and 10-12k DPS in a fairly static raid parse. So you're saying that Liquid Lightning only does about 4-6k DPS?
Hmmm.
I'll admit it was overexaggeration, but even so it's pretty clear it overperforms. Liquid will pull 6k on target skelly and like 8k in raids with normal cleave damage.
But just look at the stamplar parse provided on the first page fighting Rakkhat. 21.9% DPS contribution from one skill. And you want to tell me it's not overperforming?
It's like sorc pets before the nerf.0 -
CrisXD✭✭✭Oh look ANOTHER Nerf thread...everyone take a shot!PS4 EU
Tamriel Dance Masters:
AD - Altmer MagSorc, Altmer Magplar, Redguard StamBlade(PVP)
EP - Nord Tank, Altmer MagSorc(PVP), Dunmer MagBlade(PVP)
DC - Redguard StamWarden, Breton MagDK
GM - The Taverneers PS4 EU
Feeling Fresh Traders PS4 EU3 -
kylewwefan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I'm gonna assume this is a gag thread.
The next chapter or annals isn't even live yet and we get a nerf Stam post? 1 -
Destruent✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@Destruent so buff magplar and magdk i guess and bow builds/magwarden.
I highly doubt zos will buff them to stam-dps, magplar and Magdk were at this level of dps and especially Templars got heavily nerfed since then. I also don't think it's that good for the game to have such high dps...mol and old trials aren't made with this in mind.
Noobplar0 -
Rikkof✭✭✭Melee should always parse higher than range on stationary targets, simply cause it involves more risk and usually there are mechanics to prevent melee stacking. Issue is tho that mdks and mtemplars are parsing way to low. Well and mag wardens ofc.
what risks, can u detail please?
there is no risk involved, cut the ***, liar, you just want to keep your op status
NERF STAMINA DPS TO TEH GROUND ID SAY1
