[PvE] Stamina needs to be balanced ASAP

DeliCreep

Update 15 hits mag a lot harder than stam, and because of this, a stamdk's dps can be around 23% higher than a magsorc's dps, but stam sustain is infinite. I know that stam DDs can't really have a 100% uptime on bosses, but still the dps difference is way too high. Also this is for PvE and based on alcast's new builds.

[Edited for baiting title]

DeliCreep

Also TFS is way too OP compared to any other stam set, so nerf that too...

casparian

Stam builds are in a really good place. They don't need any nerfs.

Buff magicka DPS.

Gamanoid

There should be a risk-reward aspect to gameplay.

Stamina can't hide behind 18k+ shields like their magicka counterparts.
They actually have to time their blocks/roll-dodges/heals.

Being squishy and generally at melee range means there needs to be some aspect that warrants bringing a stamina DD to a trial. That aspect is higher ST dps. If you nerf that, what's the point to bringing any stam at all?

jkolb2030

Cant tell if this is a troll thread or not....

Stam classes got shafted in literally every update since Thieves Guild - and now you're upset that a stamdk can put out DPS equivalent to a magsorc?

Weird....


Stam is at a perfect spot imo.. Risk vs Reward - StamDk does ~40k single target damage, but has no execute, shield, AoE dmg, or range to rival that of a magic class..

DeliCreep

jkolb2030 wrote: »

Cant tell if this is a troll thread or not....

Stam classes got shafted in literally every update since Thieves Guild - and now you're upset that a stamdk can put out DPS equivalent to a magsorc?

Weird....


Stam is at a perfect spot imo.. Risk vs Reward - StamDk does ~40k single target damage, but has no execute, shield, AoE dmg, or range to rival that of a magic class..

The problem is not that a stam DK's dps rivals magsorcs, the problem is that a stamdk's dps can be roughly 23% higher, which is a lot. Yeah they don't have shields, but they can block a lot more and use deadly cloak (-25% aoe damage taken at all times, also deals nice dps), so they are not really squishy.

Vapirko

LOL

@DeliCreep have you played a stam DK? Have you tried vMA as a stam DK? And where are you getting this 23% percent higher from? Are you aware of the torugs pact and Infused meta coming up? Are you aware that stamina dps strength is only single target and mag sorcs still rule the field in aoe damage? People like you ruin stamina classe, and the reson we've been nerfed into the ground.

DDuke

Good of you to specify PvE - I can actually agree with this post.


I think the first step should be fixing Infused, so that it doesn't affect off bar enchants such as vMA Endless Hail while you're on main DW (or 2H) bar - this affects stam dps in a big way.

War Machine also plays a pretty big part in stamina PvE DPS, as it is mostly stam DDs that have the cheap ultimates. As a result, you have this set buffing the other nearby DDs (usually also stamina), meaning much higher Major Slayer uptime for stam builds than magicka.

So maybe a small buff to Master Architect (i.e. longer duration on Major Slayer) could be in order.


After that it should be re-evaluated again whether stam DPS is still overperforming in PvE.

Zer0oo

In morrowind patch stam dd normally have 10-30% more single target dps in a trial setting than their magica counterpart.

DDuke

Gamanoid wrote: »

There should be a risk-reward aspect to gameplay.

Stamina can't hide behind 18k+ shields like their magicka counterparts.
They actually have to time their blocks/roll-dodges/heals.

Being squishy and generally at melee range means there needs to be some aspect that warrants bringing a stamina DD to a trial. That aspect is higher ST dps. If you nerf that, what's the point to bringing any stam at all?

In most fights, the risk isn't any higher in melee than it is at ranged.

It is easier to die as a stamina build though as you've got no shields, so vHoF 4th boss robot will one shot you for example if your Deadly Cloak ran out or if you weren't at full health.

That said, I don't think it warrants stamina having 10k+ higher DPS than magicka.

jkolb2030 wrote: »

Cant tell if this is a troll thread or not....

Stam classes got shafted in literally every update since Thieves Guild - and now you're upset that a stamdk can put out DPS equivalent to a magsorc?

Weird....


Stam is at a perfect spot imo.. Risk vs Reward - StamDk does ~40k single target damage, but has no execute, shield, AoE dmg, or range to rival that of a magic class..

Stam DK can do 65k single target in a trial setting.

Vapirko

@DDuke are you aware of the difference in difficulty between a mag sorc and a mag DK in solo content like vma? Stamina classes need something to make them worth it. And again mag sorcs are far better for aoe damage. Every class has their role. I can't honestly believe people are calling for more stamina nerfs. Get over yourselves. I know ZOS does their best to make mag sorcs the meta in every single patch but you have to at least create the illusion that other classes can compete.

DDuke

Vapirko wrote: »

@DDuke are you aware of the difference in difficulty between a mag sorc and a mag DK in solo content like vma? Stamina classes need something to make them worth it. And again mag sorcs are far better for aoe damage. Every class has their role. I can't honestly believe people are calling for more stamina nerfs. Get over yourselves. I know ZOS does their best to make mag sorcs the meta in every single patch but you have to at least create the illusion that other classes can compete.

What difficulty? vMA is easy af these days, and this is coming from a stamblade.

It used to be hell back in the days when most things in there actually one shot you, but still perfectly doable - I was ranking in the top 10 NB leaderboard as stam build back then, when stamina builds were much, much worse off in PvE.


I'm just looking at things from the high end competitive PoV - numbers don't lie, stamina DPS is performing significantly stronger than magicka at the moment. So if you're running for top leaderboards, it makes no sense not to bring the people that do the most DPS.


That said, PvP is a different beast entirely and were I ZOS, I wouldn't make any balance changes to stamina that affect it directly or indirectly.

Destruent

Vapirko wrote: »

@DDuke are you aware of the difference in difficulty between a mag sorc and a mag DK in solo content like vma? Stamina classes need something to make them worth it. And again mag sorcs are far better for aoe damage. Every class has their role. I can't honestly believe people are calling for more stamina nerfs. Get over yourselves. I know ZOS does their best to make mag sorcs the meta in every single patch but you have to at least create the illusion that other classes can compete.

Atm it's more like: I could take 3 mag-builds or 2 stambuilds and get around the same dps...there should be a difference, but it is too big atm.
Especially if you look a bit closer...stam dks compete with mag-dk and magplar for a trialspot, needless to say there's nearly no reason to bring magicka-melee-build to a trial...

Let there be a difference of around 5...10k dps between stam-melee and magicka-ranged with stam-ranged and mag-melee in between and I guess most people are happy. It's not solely about stam dk vs mag-sorc...

KingJ

Well majority of trials have large add pulls and most bosses have adds that spawn.Magic classes especially magsorc have great AOE damage.Magdk will always be allowed in for the bonus damage and most groups run 5-6 magsorc from what I seen and group runs.If 1 or two stam dps are in a run I really don't care.Since magsorc gonna be in a run anyway.

Morgul667

The forum is on fire today

Darkdex

Where is the lol button?

I mean, seriously, even if your claim is right (23% dps difference, ST), how much AoE DPS do magicka classes have over stamina ones? 50%? 75%?

It is clear than the balance is good on this patch, the trial groups have 2-4 stam DDs and the rest is magicka, or do you miss the times when there were only mag DDs on the raid groups?

Do you want to have almost the same dps as a stam char, with 15k+ shields, at range, with 50% or more AoE DPS? Anything else?

And, for the love of God, you are comparing with @Alcast , a top end raider, where did you get that 23%? Comparison with some other player? O with a magsorc is his very same group?

One final that thing, Alcast even said that his mates haven't figured out the perfect build yet, so that DPS gap, which I doubt is that high, can be reduced.

Septimus_Magna

Compare magDK to stamDK, the stam build easily does 80% more dps in a trail setting which is ridiculous. Also melee distance and also bad sustain.

I'd rather see magicka builds buffed instead of stamina builds nerfed. Magicka sorcs are in a good place, NBs arent bad either but the rest needs some serious help dps wise.

Zer0oo

Darkdex wrote: »

Where is the lol button?

I mean, seriously, even if your claim is right (23% dps difference, ST), how much AoE DPS do magicka classes have over stamina ones? 50%? 75%?

It is clear than the balance is good on this patch, the trial groups have 2-4 stam DDs and the rest is magicka, or do you miss the times when there were only mag DDs on the raid groups?

Do you want to have almost the same dps as a stam char, with 15k+ shields, at range, with 50% or more AoE DPS? Anything else?

And, for the love of God, you are comparing with @Alcast , a top end raider, where did you get that 23%? Comparison with some other player? O with a magsorc is his very same group?

One final that thing, Alcast even said that his mates haven't figured out the perfect build yet, so that DPS gap, which I doubt is that high, can be reduced.

Actually the aoe dps of most stam aren't so much behind if you dont count in the destro ulti for burning add stacks.

Asmael

Infused absolutely needs to be fixed, but as far as we know, this is not the case on the PTS, so...

R.I.P. balance for the next 6 months.

On the bright side, I'm sure I can find a setup to break 70k single target DPS next patch, should be a fun challenge.

Saturn

DeliCreep wrote: »

Update 15 hits mag a lot harder than stam, and because of this, a stamdk's dps can be around 23% higher than a magsorc's dps, but stam sustain is infinite. I know that stam DDs can't really have a 100% uptime on bosses, but still the dps difference is way too high. Also this is for PvE and based on alcast's new builds.

Stamina builds have been consistently underperforming ever since launch, and every time they are capable of competiting people want them nerfed... Magicka toons still have an incredible advantage over stamina builds to begin with since they are mostly capable of doing equal dps from range and have access to shields, which greatly increases survivability, something that many stam builds sorely lack.

The dps difference isn't "way too high" as you say, considering how magicka builds will still outperform stamina builds. I don't know how you play your sorc, but afaik there is no devastating disparity between magsorc and stamdk, when all things are considered.

overclocker303b14_ESO

Bad thread is bad.

If anything, magicka needs a bigger nerf. If you want to wear overland gear and then hit 1, 2, 3 and then your left mouse button while standing 20 meters away from the trial boss with a shield up your dps should not be as high as someone in melee range that is wearing a set that they actually earned by doing trials.

Yoltab1379

It's pretty clear to me that the majority of people on here aren't high end raiders. They don't pull the highest numbers and have not raided with top players. I don't want to come off as an elitist who believes he is better than everyone else because I'm not. I am however a dedicated raider who happens to main a magicka sorcerer. In our raiding group we have 5 stamina DD'S and 3 Magicka Sorcerers. None of the Sorcs bar me want to actually play the class anymore but we remain as one to provide off balance to the group(this is something that boosts stamina DPS a *** tonne, a heavy attack with dual wield / staff consumes off balance ) + most fights do not allow for 8 stamina.

Instead of giving some weird % estimation *** to estimate the difference between magicka and stamina which nobody will believe , heres two parses of a magicka sorcerer ( me ) and a stamina templar on rakkhat. The only difference being I was on meteor catching duty meaning I had to leave the group on three occasions.:

> Magicka Sorcerer


> Stamina Templar


I can get higher no doubt, I was unlucky in this run with getting the void more times than usual and since this parse I have found better ways to improve upon my dps in a rakkhat scenario. But even with that, my AOE DPS will still be under / on par with this ST DPS. While his total DPS ends up being 10k higher.

Another comparison, On Varlariel, I was able to camp the boss in this particular run vs an off tank in DPS setup in his very first trial as a stamina dragonknight using a charged VMA bow:

>Magicka sorcerer


>Off tank in DD gear


These numbers are closer but as I say it was an off tank in his first attempt on stamina DK. He gets higher ST than my highest Varlariel parse this patch. Experienced stam DK's are pulling closer to 60k ST on this fight and with the right group / buff setup actually clear 60k ST.

Magicka is a fair bit behind, if the only argument people have for Magicka being on par is the benefit of shields then it is clearly a learn to play issue . Stamina does not need a nerf but Magicka does need a buff.

Jawasa

What I ownder tho is how is trial groups looking in the top guilds? Is it 2 healers 2 tanks and 8 stam dd's? then I can see the point for a nerf. But if it's 2-4 stam dd's and 4-6 mag dd's why nerf stamina dd's?

Destruent

Bc stam-ranged is worse than magicka-sorcs....so you'll fill ranged spots with sorcs an melee with stam dps.

Concret

Nerf stam
Buff stam
Nerf stam
Buff stam
Nerf stam
Buff stam
Nerf sorc

DeliCreep

Darkdex wrote: »

Where is the lol button?

I mean, seriously, even if your claim is right (23% dps difference, ST), how much AoE DPS do magicka classes have over stamina ones? 50%? 75%?

It is clear than the balance is good on this patch, the trial groups have 2-4 stam DDs and the rest is magicka, or do you miss the times when there were only mag DDs on the raid groups?

Do you want to have almost the same dps as a stam char, with 15k+ shields, at range, with 50% or more AoE DPS? Anything else?

And, for the love of God, you are comparing with @Alcast , a top end raider, where did you get that 23%? Comparison with some other player? O with a magsorc is his very same group?

One final that thing, Alcast even said that his mates haven't figured out the perfect build yet, so that DPS gap, which I doubt is that high, can be reduced.

First of all, shields are rarely used, not spammed as many of you claim. Second, the parses I've compared were both from Alcast (but even on live, stam parses show greater dps potential already). Third, stam aoe is not that bad, but even with their lower aoe damage, their overall dps is definitely higher. Also aoe is not that important, single target dps is the most important (you want to kill the boss...). Many of you just ignored how stamina sustain is infinite and effortless, why don't you care about that?

overclocker303b14_ESO

Yoltab1379 wrote: »

Stamina does not need a nerf but Magicka does need a buff.

Tend to agree with this a bit more since it is backed up with examples and all together a better argument than 'Please nerf stam (again since they are finally good for once) because herp derp'.

I actually use both as well and based on my experience here's what I think might help:

1. a vMA bow does more for a stamina player than a vMA staff does for a magicka player. At the end of the day I think vMA staffs should get a bit of a buff, and pretty much just about all the vDSA weapons should be reworked so they are BIS.

2. There isn't any set like TFS for magicka so what you end up with is an overland set and crafted set being BIS. One could argue that all you need to do is go pay some gold farmer and you will have BIS gear instantly. I do like that these sets enable players to do stuff but I think stamina is in a better spot set wise since the BIS setup comes from a combo of doing vMA, getting a trial set, and a crafted set. Magicka users already get 5k pen anyway so I don't know that another pen set is needed, but it would be nice if one of the best magicka sets in the game actually came from a trial (or at least harder dungeon content).

Edziu

DeliCreep wrote: »

jkolb2030 wrote: »

Cant tell if this is a troll thread or not....

Stam classes got shafted in literally every update since Thieves Guild - and now you're upset that a stamdk can put out DPS equivalent to a magsorc?

Weird....


Stam is at a perfect spot imo.. Risk vs Reward - StamDk does ~40k single target damage, but has no execute, shield, AoE dmg, or range to rival that of a magic class..

The problem is not that a stam DK's dps rivals magsorcs, the problem is that a stamdk's dps can be roughly 23% higher, which is a lot. Yeah they don't have shields, but they can block a lot more and use deadly cloak (-25% aoe damage taken at all times, also deals nice dps), so they are not really squishy.

so stamina got 1st buff to finally shine in single target dps since over year with few months and magica players now have asshurt because stamina after that long time finally isnt worse than magica while have much bigger risk to stay alive and keep dps.

normal QQ post from magica based player who have in ass balance until his class is gets toned down to rest/or rest is buffed to his level

kojou

This is why I keep Stamina and Magicka builds for most classes. You never know what will be on top.

Strider_Roshin

Until Stamina has equal survivability, stamina needs to have superior DPS.

Jawasa

Seems more like magdk, magtemp and magblade need a buff in pve. Magsorc seems fine. Balance is good when you have 50/50 stam mag and a mix of classes imo. Atm seems like 50/50 but mostly mag sorcs as mag dps correct?