Third difficulty for pledge dungeons

DRXHarbinger

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

I think it's a good thing when more challenging to do things give out better rewards. That's what progression is.

That's what you think, what you enjoy, and that's of course ok as such. But if you see this from ZOS' point of view, they have to gain AND retain as many players as possible - with an incredible variety of interests and motivations.
Among these varieties of players, many will not WANT to progress (because "gitting gud" isn't their motivation) and also many will not BE ABLE to progress beyond a certain level.
ZOS' interest is to make "progression" as artificial as can be, because what they want is to keep people playing together and not create such a wide gap as the one we're stuck in right now (DPS 1x=>20x for instance).
ZOS needs to keeps a "feeling" of progression, but needs to keep the actual progress of good players as low as possible.

Would you not prefer to sweat out a harder VCOA2 Super hard mode for it to drop gold BSW gear and a gold Skoria helm with Gold weapons or jewellery at the end?

I know I would, I'd rather than spend 6hrs carrying scrubs through it for a better reward than running around hacking at the earth for to refine mats to upgrade gear.

Plus OP never stated it would be compulsory or that anything you want to play be affected, it's merely an addition. But with good rewards.

Asardes

PUG difficulty is the highest

Magdalina

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

I think it's a good thing when more challenging to do things give out better rewards. That's what progression is.

That's what you think, what you enjoy, and that's of course ok as such. But if you see this from ZOS' point of view, they have to gain AND retain as many players as possible - with an incredible variety of interests and motivations.
Among these varieties of players, many will not WANT to progress (because "gitting gud" isn't their motivation) and also many will not BE ABLE to progress beyond a certain level.
ZOS' interest is to make "progression" as artificial as can be, because what they want is to keep people playing together and not create such a wide gap as the one we're stuck in right now (DPS 1x=>20x for instance).
ZOS needs to keeps a "feeling" of progression, but needs to keep the actual progress of good players as low as possible.

But if you cannot or don't want to progress then what's the point? Once you run all the content and experience all the story you just...leave? Why'd ZOS want to encourage that?

(Now the obvious answer is ZOS doesn't give a damn about long term players and is perfectly content with people buying a few overpriced mounts or crates from crown store and quitting a week after starting but for the sake of this discussion might as well pretend that's not the case.)

Septimus_Magna

What about veteran level dungeons with one additional boss clone? One boss does the mechanics (like Valkyn Skoria shatters platforms) and the clone does normal attacks.

Two bosses means double the chance for a monster helm with useful traits.

Asardes

I suggested something similar a few months ago: a handicap version of trials and dungeons where the drop pool is restricted only to the most valuable traits: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/333266/handicap-mode-for-veteran-dungeons-trials-and-arenas-cp-disabled-in-exchange-for-intelligent-drops#latest

Septimus_Magna

What about veteran level dungeons with one additional boss clone? One boss does the mechanics (like Valkyn Skoria shatters platforms) and the clone does normal attacks.

Two bosses means double the chance for a monster helm with useful traits. Lets call it veteran+ and you unlock it for each dungeon when you clear the vet dungeon after using the HM scroll.

anitajoneb17_ESO

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

Would you not prefer to sweat out a harder VCOA2 Super hard mode for it to drop gold BSW gear and a gold Skoria helm with Gold weapons or jewellery at the end?

I know I would, I'd rather than spend 6hrs carrying scrubs through it for a better reward than running around hacking at the earth for to refine mats to upgrade gear.

Plus OP never stated it would be compulsory or that anything you want to play be affected, it's merely an addition. But with good rewards.

Many people enjoy farming mats a lot, and I'm one of them. Now do we ask for another level or refining mats, even more rare, even more expensive ? Do we ask for a "super-golden" quality for gear upgrading, that only people who farm long hours can access ? Do we ask for something special for us ?
Now if they were to introduce a "super-golden" quality, wouldn't you want it ? Would you be happy with "oh, just carry on with your golden weapons, you don't need the super-gold, it's just an addition, nothing is taken away from you"... ?

Anything that's added BUT restricted to a minority of players is actually something SUBSTRACTED from everyone else. And if that thing is "best in slot" then it WILL be compulsory. Guilds, PUG players and such will ask for achievements, results, parses, etc... according to that item. Anything that's added AND BiS becomes compulsory, that's how humans work.

Back to our dungeon level problem : IF there's a "nightmare mode" added, then people will expect everyone else to be able to complete it, call everyone else noobs if they can't, kick people from groups, create tensions in guilds, and whatnot. Any higher challenge introduced raises expectations and pressure upon everyone. Hence that's imho a bad thing.

Destruent

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

Would you not prefer to sweat out a harder VCOA2 Super hard mode for it to drop gold BSW gear and a gold Skoria helm with Gold weapons or jewellery at the end?

I know I would, I'd rather than spend 6hrs carrying scrubs through it for a better reward than running around hacking at the earth for to refine mats to upgrade gear.

Plus OP never stated it would be compulsory or that anything you want to play be affected, it's merely an addition. But with good rewards.

Many people enjoy farming mats a lot, and I'm one of them. Now do we ask for another level or refining mats, even more rare, even more expensive ? Do we ask for a "super-golden" quality for gear upgrading, that only people who farm long hours can access ? Do we ask for something special for us ?
Now if they were to introduce a "super-golden" quality, wouldn't you want it ? Would you be happy with "oh, just carry on with your golden weapons, you don't need the super-gold, it's just an addition, nothing is taken away from you"... ?

Anything that's added BUT restricted to a minority of players is actually something SUBSTRACTED from everyone else. And if that thing is "best in slot" then it WILL be compulsory. Guilds, PUG players and such will ask for achievements, results, parses, etc... according to that item. Anything that's added AND BiS becomes compulsory, that's how humans work.

The difference is: you like the farming at it is now. Some people like running 4-men -content but fell asleep bc of the extremely low difficulty. Wouldn't hurt anyone if there is a higher difficulty OPTION where you could get gold jewelry (not rly noticeable stat-increase) or a higher chance for useful traits.
No idea why anyone can get mad about something like that

Stahlor

It would be nicer if the whole dungeon is harder. Otherwise it still would be like it is now with hardmode. Boring dungeons with a little bit less boring bosses, but still boring.
Why should this game only be attractive to everybody when you can complete everything easily after playing a few months?

anitajoneb17_ESO

Destruent wrote: »

The difference is: you like the farming at it is now. Some people like running 4-men -content but fell asleep bc of the extremely low difficulty. Wouldn't hurt anyone if there is a higher difficulty OPTION where you could get gold jewelry (not rly noticeable stat-increase) or a higher chance for useful traits.
No idea why anyone can get mad about something like that

Actually while you were writing this I was editing my post with an additional paragraph that answers just that

"IF there's a "nightmare mode" added, then people will expect everyone else to be able to complete it, call everyone else noobs if they can't, kick people from groups, create tensions in guilds, and whatnot. Any higher challenge introduced raises expectations and pressure upon everyone. Hence that's imho a bad thing."

I'll add (as a simple illustration of this) that if everyone obtaining the flawless conqueror achievement was to be sent automatically to a separate server where those 0.01% would be among themselves and run all the nightmare difficulty levels they wish, i'd be perfectly happy with that.
In others words, what bothers me with "elite nightmare" instances is not the people who want and can complete them, it is not either the people who can't and don't want to complete them, it's the interaction between the categories and the extreme negative impact for the community.

idk

Stahlor wrote: »

Well, these dungeons are meant to be 4 man dungeons. If your able to run most of them with 2 man only there is something wrong...

It is safe to say most cannot 2 man clears of the vet dungeons so nothing is wrong. As I stated earlier, the next level of challenge is the vet trials and more specifically with the HM challenge. iirc from other statements, a small percentage of the server has cleared vMoL HM which has been out for more than a year.

LadyNalcarya

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

I think it's a good thing when more challenging to do things give out better rewards. That's what progression is.

That's what you think, what you enjoy, and that's of course ok as such. But if you see this from ZOS' point of view, they have to gain AND retain as many players as possible - with an incredible variety of interests and motivations.
Among these varieties of players, many will not WANT to progress (because "gitting gud" isn't their motivation) and also many will not BE ABLE to progress beyond a certain level.
ZOS' interest is to make "progression" as artificial as can be, because what they want is to keep people playing together and not create such a wide gap as the one we're stuck in right now (DPS 1x=>20x for instance).
ZOS needs to keeps a "feeling" of progression, but needs to keep the actual progress of good players as low as possible.

Would you not prefer to sweat out a harder VCOA2 Super hard mode for it to drop gold BSW gear and a gold Skoria helm with Gold weapons or jewellery at the end?

I know I would, I'd rather than spend 6hrs carrying scrubs through it for a better reward than running around hacking at the earth for to refine mats to upgrade gear.

Plus OP never stated it would be compulsory or that anything you want to play be affected, it's merely an addition. But with good rewards.

Itll be training or prosperous, though, and your weapon will be a bsw bow.

Turelus

See, and now the thread has become about gear/loot and not about the challenge.

So people don't want more content just for a challenge, they want rewards for it.

Destruent

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

The difference is: you like the farming at it is now. Some people like running 4-men -content but fell asleep bc of the extremely low difficulty. Wouldn't hurt anyone if there is a higher difficulty OPTION where you could get gold jewelry (not rly noticeable stat-increase) or a higher chance for useful traits.
No idea why anyone can get mad about something like that

Actually while you were writing this I was editing my post with an additional paragraph that answers just that

"IF there's a "nightmare mode" added, then people will expect everyone else to be able to complete it, call everyone else noobs if they can't, kick people from groups, create tensions in guilds, and whatnot. Any higher challenge introduced raises expectations and pressure upon everyone. Hence that's imho a bad thing."

People are calling other players noobs atm, people expect them to beat vHM now and so on. But in reality, those that do so aren't even that good in this game...so why does anyone even care about them? They will most likely struggle aswell in a higher difficulty...

Believe me, those people who are really great at this game would most likely explain mechanics and stuff to newbies than calling them out for beeing bad. Just look at the big number of huides/tutorials floating around the internet. They are made for "noobs" and made by those who such a difficulty would be made for...

Or just look at this from another point of view:
ZOS decreased difficulty with more or less every patch. Did you notice a decrease in people declining others from dungeons or calling them noobs? I don't really see that...imo this problem gets bigger and bigger the more ZOS nerfs the content.

Merlin13KAGL

There are several of the original dungeons that have not yet been granted a Vet version (now called version II).

There are story lines and beautifully crafted levels just waiting to be designed, as well as doors that have been begging to be unlocked for quite some time (extra vines in Arx, waiting to lead to a new area, even the bridges in the background in CoS)

I think we're due for another round/area based content ~ a gauntlet, if you will, but for more than one, less than 12 players.

Multiple opportunities are available here, including path choices that provide different results, vice the absolutely linear options that are out there now.

Think MA meets DSA meets mini-trials in stages. Unlocking those actually unlocks new mini-zones.

That would give all something more interesting to do for a bit - choose your level of difficulty by literally choosing which door you walk through?

anitajoneb17_ESO

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

As I stated earlier, the next level of challenge is the vet trials and more specifically with the HM challenge. iirc from other statements, a small percentage of the server has cleared vMoL HM which has been out for more than a year.

Good point... but the thing is, the 0.01% who HAS actually beaten vMoL have been pressing the last drop of fun out of it, just like they have with vDSA and vMSA. I mean, I disagree with "nightmare modes" for dungeons but I also really do understand the point of view of people wanting it.

That being said, if they accepted to run those extra challenges just for the fun of the challenge, it would make the issue much simpler, but unfortunately, like @Turelus already pointed out, these 0.01% aren't all about fun. They're all about competition, leaderboards, fame and rewards. They wouldn't run any nightmare content without any extra, exclusive rewards.

Stahlor

You don't get special loot for hm veteran maw - and people are running it anyway. You run it because its satisfaction if you worked on something hard and you have finally completed it. So I think lots of good players already would be satisfied with new challenging content - also without special loot.

idk

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

There are several of the original dungeons that have not yet been granted a Vet version (now called version II).

There are story lines and beautifully crafted levels just waiting to be designed, as well as doors that have been begging to be unlocked for quite some time (extra vines in Arx, waiting to lead to a new area, even the bridges in the background in CoS)

I think we're due for another round/area based content ~ a gauntlet, if you will, but for more than one, less than 12 players.

Multiple opportunities are available here, including path choices that provide different results, vice the absolutely linear options that are out there now.

Think MA meets DSA meets mini-trials in stages. Unlocking those actually unlocks new mini-zones.

That would give all something more interesting to do for a bit - choose your level of difficulty by literally choosing which door you walk through?

Zos has not added a new dungeon to the game outside of DLCs. My bet would be that the original dungeons that do not have a second story line to continue from the first (which is what you speak of) will not get a second story line since some may think it should be part of the base game, when it would not be.

Destruent

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

That being said, if they accepted to run those extra challenges just for the fun of the challenge, it would make the issue much simpler, but unfortunately, like @Turelus already pointed out, these 0.01% aren't all about fun. They're all about competition, leaderboards, fame and rewards. They wouldn't run any nightmare content without any extra, exclusive rewards.

See ny suggestion for a reward...wouldn't really hurt to give 100...200 more stam/mag/hp to those who are able to beat it. You won't even notice it in your outgoing dmg. Or if it is too much, just the second one...better dropchance for usefull traits...

Turelus

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

As I stated earlier, the next level of challenge is the vet trials and more specifically with the HM challenge. iirc from other statements, a small percentage of the server has cleared vMoL HM which has been out for more than a year.

Good point... but the thing is, the 0.01% who HAS actually beaten vMoL have been pressing the last drop of fun out of it, just like they have with vDSA and vMSA. I mean, I disagree with "nightmare modes" for dungeons but I also really do understand the point of view of people wanting it.

That being said, if they accepted to run those extra challenges just for the fun of the challenge, it would make the issue much simpler, but unfortunately, like Turelus already pointed out, these 0.01% aren't all about fun. They're all about competition, leaderboards, fame and rewards. They wouldn't run any nightmare content without any extra, exclusive rewards.

I'm fine with leaderboards, fame and epeen, that doesn't effect my game in any way.

However once gear, achievements, titles and dye start coming into it then it forces me to play that content to experience or have everything in the game.

The problem is the "hardest" content serves so few in the community. That's not to say they shouldn't have the option, but make it about testing their abilities and giving them bragging rights, not making me beat my head against the wall to get yet another skill altering weapon.

Asardes

Well, there's not actually a lot of extra work put in by developers when designing extra difficulties for the given content. It's probably ~5% of the work put in to develop the base content. Vet vs. normal involves more HP, harder hits and a couple of extra mechanics involved in the case of HM. So they are putting in that extra ~5% to serve the ~5% of the players who can beat it. Looks fair enough. There's no content that in low difficulty setting still "caters to the elite" in this game. Normal dungeons and trials can be completed easily by low level players who actually pay attention. Those are the ~95%.

DRXHarbinger

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

Would you not prefer to sweat out a harder VCOA2 Super hard mode for it to drop gold BSW gear and a gold Skoria helm with Gold weapons or jewellery at the end?

I know I would, I'd rather than spend 6hrs carrying scrubs through it for a better reward than running around hacking at the earth for to refine mats to upgrade gear.

Plus OP never stated it would be compulsory or that anything you want to play be affected, it's merely an addition. But with good rewards.

Many people enjoy farming mats a lot, and I'm one of them. Now do we ask for another level or refining mats, even more rare, even more expensive ? Do we ask for a "super-golden" quality for gear upgrading, that only people who farm long hours can access ? Do we ask for something special for us ?
Now if they were to introduce a "super-golden" quality, wouldn't you want it ? Would you be happy with "oh, just carry on with your golden weapons, you don't need the super-gold, it's just an addition, nothing is taken away from you"... ?

Anything that's added BUT restricted to a minority of players is actually something SUBSTRACTED from everyone else. And if that thing is "best in slot" then it WILL be compulsory. Guilds, PUG players and such will ask for achievements, results, parses, etc... according to that item. Anything that's added AND BiS becomes compulsory, that's how humans work.

Back to our dungeon level problem : IF there's a "nightmare mode" added, then people will expect everyone else to be able to complete it, call everyone else noobs if they can't, kick people from groups, create tensions in guilds, and whatnot. Any higher challenge introduced raises expectations and pressure upon everyone. Hence that's imho a bad thing.

That's something completely different.

OP is asking for a new level of content with better rewards to suit. This is the solution. If you don't want to do it, then don't do it. It has no bearing on farming mats (how anyone that isn't a bot enjoys that is beyond me) It was simply me highlighting a benefit to playing the harder content. Just because ZOS adds some new way to get better quality gear does not mean they have to add in something else to the people that simply refuse to attempt any harder content. Never has anyone said the gear would be better, just be legendary quality that is all.

And seriously, you've been around here for as long as I have, Are you really saying you'd struggle to complete the same dungeon that's been around for 3 years but with moar health on bosses and moar damage dealt? Given you can actually solo most of these with ease I struggle to comprehend that someone who has been playing the game as long as you think it will force people out of the game when it is optional.

You wouldn't be kicked from the groups because you would read clearly what level of dungeon you are queuing for surely? The real issue with scrubs getting booted from them is the sheer fact they queued up expecting a free ride. make an effort and you won't get kicked.

Tensions in guilds...get another one.

Pressure...well if you think pressure in a game, eps causal dungeons is a thing well...Go for VHOF HM and then talk about pressure in a game.

Destruent

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

Pressure...well if you think pressure in a game, eps causal dungeons is a thing well...Go for VHOF HM and then talk about pressure in a game.

Better use vMoL/HM or vHoF/4th-boss as an example

Flameheart

I ran in some PUGs where I indeed thought you need an additional level of difficulty:

Beginner - Normal - Veteran

Asardes

In fact dungeons should be seen as a preparatory content for trials, which are real end game content. If guilds get tensed about 4 man dungeon completion they have no reason to keep going. The purpose of guilds is to allow people to organize for trials, since it's much harder to band 12 people together.

Krayzie

Please dont do this to me, console has enough latency issues and vet dungeons already 10x harder than PC because at any moment you can suffer a lag spike and can't bar swap LOL

Destruent

Asardes wrote: »

In fact dungeons should be seen as a preparatory content for trials, which are real end game content. If guilds get tensed about 4 man dungeon completion they have no reason to keep going. The purpose of guilds is to allow people to organize for trials, since it's much harder to band 12 people together.

Imo dungeondifficulty is too low to prepare for trials. You don't need to play as a group to complete them...so how do they prepare for anything?

Asardes

Destruent wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

In fact dungeons should be seen as a preparatory content for trials, which are real end game content. If guilds get tensed about 4 man dungeon completion they have no reason to keep going. The purpose of guilds is to allow people to organize for trials, since it's much harder to band 12 people together.

Imo dungeondifficulty is too low to prepare for trials. You don't need to play as a group to complete them...so how do they prepare for anything?

Well, at least the SotH ones somewhat ... oh, wait, they just nerfed those ...

Merlin13KAGL

Flameheart wrote: »

I ran in some PUGs where I indeed thought you need an additional level of difficulty:

Beginner - Normal - Veteran

I thought Pugs usually were the additional level of difficulty?

Asardes

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Flameheart wrote: »

I ran in some PUGs where I indeed thought you need an additional level of difficulty:

Beginner - Normal - Veteran

I thought Pugs usually were the additional level of difficulty?

"Altars
Altars
Altars
...."

Me PUG-ing Wayrest Sewers 2 back in the day, to the other 3 players which were beating on a ghostly harvester, after being explained what to do in detail before the fight started