PvP Roadmap 2017-2018

Bashev

@ZOS_BrianWheeler can we have some kind of roadmap what are the plans for the future PvP modes? Is it possible to make only CP or only non-CP modes? Currently the PvP population is divided between these two options.
1) There are CP and non CP campaigns.
2) All duels are CP only
3) All BGs are non CP only
If you want to be competitive you have to adjust your build based on the CP or no CP.
Please ZoS just take a decision what do you want to do with PvP.

Solutions:
1) (I think @Derra proposed it) Make a template with full CP enabled for all players in PvP (all modes)
2) Remove totally CP form PvP.

I believe that solution 1 is more reasonable and it will be easier for balancing between PvP and PvE.

Vapirko

No please don't enable CP. PvP is so much more enjoyable and less laggy without CP. At this time PvP really isn't that unbalanced. Frankly I think we need a no cp no proc set campaign.

Derra

Vapirko wrote: »

No please don't enable CP. PvP is so much more enjoyable and less laggy without CP. At this time PvP really isn't that unbalanced. Frankly I think we need a no cp no proc set campaign.

NonCP is counterintuitive from an accessibility perspective though. You want new players to pick up on pvp. ZOS has stated multiple times that they want a game where there are no differences in skills or gear for pvp.

NonCP completely counteracts that. You have new players picking up on the game. They´re learning the game while leveling up and gaining CP. They built around these CP. The game is getting balanced around CP mainly (bc it´s mainly pve balanced imo - though a dev might state me wrong).

What you don´t want is the current situation where there are two different pvp modes CP and nonCP that divide an already not too big of a playerbase.
I can´t see a reason to have all pvp be nonCP. That just does not work with keeping PVE and PVP tied together and magnifies the efforts ZOS would need to make to balance the game (as they have to balance two different gamemodes instead of one).

Basically what pvp needs is:

- more content (carrot on a stick like the event)
- better accessibiltiy for new players (this means either completely nonCP or cappedCP for every player)
- easier rerolling/leveling of chars and gearing (gearfarming is just too tedious in eso)

Joy_Division

What is fine in CP or no-CP is often problematic in the other. It's crazy to think that both of these - and PvE - can be juggled and balanced simultaneously.

Get rid of the CP system (while replacing the power stolen form players during the 1.6 patch), replace it with an end-game progression that does not have a huge generic powerspike, and unify the game so there is only one rule system to balance instead of 3.

Maikon

.

Maikon

Derra wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

No please don't enable CP. PvP is so much more enjoyable and less laggy without CP. At this time PvP really isn't that unbalanced. Frankly I think we need a no cp no proc set campaign.

NonCP is counterintuitive from an accessibility perspective though. You want new players to pick up on pvp. ZOS has stated multiple times that they want a game where there are no differences in skills or gear for pvp.

NonCP completely counteracts that. You have new players picking up on the game. They´re learning the game while leveling up and gaining CP. They built around these CP. The game is getting balanced around CP mainly (bc it´s mainly pve balanced imo - though a dev might state me wrong).

What you don´t want is the current situation where there are two different pvp modes CP and nonCP that divide an already not too big of a playerbase.
I can´t see a reason to have all pvp be nonCP. That just does not work with keeping PVE and PVP tied together and magnifies the efforts ZOS would need to make to balance the game (as they have to balance two different gamemodes instead of one).

Basically what pvp needs is:

- more content (carrot on a stick like the event)
- better accessibiltiy for new players (this means either completely nonCP or cappedCP for every player)
- easier rerolling/leveling of chars and gearing (gearfarming is just too tedious in eso)

And there it is, the "I don't want to put in any work to be good" bs argument. Why don't we just give all the new players max cp, every set of gear in gold, and 100,000,000 gold to start.

Also, Non-CP requires skill to survive, CP is just a crutch for the weak.

AhPook_Is_Here

I think the whole CP/no CP thing is a decent division. Obviously some people enjoy both, and while it might be nice to add a CP option to BGs, it should be pretty obvious how in that scenario, game-play could be really bad.

From a population standpoint, the reason why queues are reasonable on vivic now is because people who want to play without CP have a place to play. If that was gone they would likely be queuing into Vivic. Why do I say that? Because even during the event Shor was awful, completely full, 6 or 7 flagged keeps and 1 or no crossed swords, players just avoiding each other to flip keeps and resources, and essentially just a pve and emp grind zone. The one thing Sotha Sil has in common with vivic is that the players want to have good fights, however, the definition of good fights between the two servers is different. I think as long as the game has the population to support 2 styles of PVP why not just let each group have fun? No point in being a rules autocrat!

Derra

Maikon wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

No please don't enable CP. PvP is so much more enjoyable and less laggy without CP. At this time PvP really isn't that unbalanced. Frankly I think we need a no cp no proc set campaign.

NonCP is counterintuitive from an accessibility perspective though. You want new players to pick up on pvp. ZOS has stated multiple times that they want a game where there are no differences in skills or gear for pvp.

NonCP completely counteracts that. You have new players picking up on the game. They´re learning the game while leveling up and gaining CP. They built around these CP. The game is getting balanced around CP mainly (bc it´s mainly pve balanced imo - though a dev might state me wrong).

What you don´t want is the current situation where there are two different pvp modes CP and nonCP that divide an already not too big of a playerbase.
I can´t see a reason to have all pvp be nonCP. That just does not work with keeping PVE and PVP tied together and magnifies the efforts ZOS would need to make to balance the game (as they have to balance two different gamemodes instead of one).

Basically what pvp needs is:

- more content (carrot on a stick like the event)
- better accessibiltiy for new players (this means either completely nonCP or cappedCP for every player)
- easier rerolling/leveling of chars and gearing (gearfarming is just too tedious in eso)

And there it is, the "I don't want to put in any work to be good" bs argument. Why don't we just give all the new players max cp, every set of gear in gold, and 100,000,000 gold to start.

Also, Non-CP requires skill to survive, CP is just a crutch for the weak.

That´s just bullsh*t.

Currently eso has to be the most userunfriendly mmo i´ve ever played (at 3 years into the game) in terms of pvp and gearing up a character especially when picking up on the game.
Someone who wants to start the game and play with friends in the CP campaign?
Good luck grinding from 1-50
Then grinding atleast 300cp
Leveling skilllines and getting skillpoints.
Getting the gear needed.

I had players of my guild starting in eso. They had help from long time veterans. They got their gear crafted and builds researched for them. They had both over 15 days of playtime before they both quit because they were still so far away from being even remotely competetive in CP pvp.

That has nothing to do with giving away stuff for free.
It´s about creating a realistic chance for someone picking up on the game (who can´t invest 5 hours a day) to participate in pvp without having to grind for half a year before being able to.

Non-CP does not require more or less skill.
Pretending it does is just a justification for weak players with inflated egos to play in an environment that has a much higher percentage of newbies because it´s the only option they have to pvp without undergoing the horrible grind of idiocy that eso sadly is.

I don´t get this elitist argument at all.
A game needs to progressively lower the barrier a new player needs to overcome to participate with the long time veretans for pvp. Otherwise it will die out.

Derra

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

I think the whole CP/no CP thing is a decent division. Obviously some people enjoy both, and while it might be nice to add a CP option to BGs, it should be pretty obvious how in that scenario, game-play could be really bad.

From a population standpoint, the reason why queues are reasonable on vivic now is because people who want to play without CP have a place to play. If that was gone they would likely be queuing into Vivic. Why do I say that? Because even during the event Shor was awful, completely full, 6 or 7 flagged keeps and 1 or no crossed swords, players just avoiding each other to flip keeps and resources, and essentially just a pve and emp grind zone. The one thing Sotha Sil has in common with vivic is that the players want to have good fights, however, the definition of good fights between the two servers is different. I think as long as the game has the population to support 2 styles of PVP why not just let each group have fun? No point in being a rules autocrat!

Because dividing the playerbase into different pvp modes when the pvp playerbase is not growing (due to beforementiont reasons) leads to pvp slowly dying out as there are more players leaving than new ones picking up on it.

It´s not healthy for pvp to have a divided playerbase.

Maikon

Derra wrote: »

Maikon wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

No please don't enable CP. PvP is so much more enjoyable and less laggy without CP. At this time PvP really isn't that unbalanced. Frankly I think we need a no cp no proc set campaign.

NonCP is counterintuitive from an accessibility perspective though. You want new players to pick up on pvp. ZOS has stated multiple times that they want a game where there are no differences in skills or gear for pvp.

NonCP completely counteracts that. You have new players picking up on the game. They´re learning the game while leveling up and gaining CP. They built around these CP. The game is getting balanced around CP mainly (bc it´s mainly pve balanced imo - though a dev might state me wrong).

What you don´t want is the current situation where there are two different pvp modes CP and nonCP that divide an already not too big of a playerbase.
I can´t see a reason to have all pvp be nonCP. That just does not work with keeping PVE and PVP tied together and magnifies the efforts ZOS would need to make to balance the game (as they have to balance two different gamemodes instead of one).

Basically what pvp needs is:

- more content (carrot on a stick like the event)
- better accessibiltiy for new players (this means either completely nonCP or cappedCP for every player)
- easier rerolling/leveling of chars and gearing (gearfarming is just too tedious in eso)

And there it is, the "I don't want to put in any work to be good" bs argument. Why don't we just give all the new players max cp, every set of gear in gold, and 100,000,000 gold to start.

Also, Non-CP requires skill to survive, CP is just a crutch for the weak.

That´s just bullsh*t.

Currently eso has to be the most userunfriendly mmo i´ve ever played (at 3 times into the game) in terms of pvp and gearing up a character especially when picking up on the game.
Someone who wants to start the game and play with friends in the CP campaign?
Good luck grinding from 1-50
Then grinding atleast 300cp
Leveling skilllines and getting skillpoints.
Getting the gear needed.

I had players of my guild starting in eso. They had help from long time veterans. They got their gear crafted and builds researched for them. They had both over 15 days of playtime before they both quit because they were still so far away from being even remotely competetive in CP pvp.

That has nothing to do with giving away stuff for free.
It´s about creating a realistic chance for someone picking up on the game (who can´t invest 5 hours a day) to participate in pvp without having to grind for half a year before being able to.

Non-CP does not require more or less skill.
Pretending it does is just a justification for weak players with inflated egos to play in an environment that has a much higher percentage of newbies because it´s the only option they have to pvp without undergoing the horrible grind of idiocy that eso sadly is.

I don´t get this elitist argument at all.
A game needs to progressively lower the barrier a new player needs to overcome to participate with the long time veretans for pvp. Otherwise it will die out.

It's an MMO, it will require time to make a vet char, there's no way you can get around that. And by saying they should give new players max cp from the start so they can play with their friends, is like saying *** you to all those that worked hard over a long period of time to get where they are now.

And yes, the Non-CP campaign requires more skill. You need a different build that doesn't revolve around cp, you need to learn better resource management, and a better rotation.

Take resources for instance, any max cp player can solo steamroll a resource in vivic in under 30 sec, if they tried that in sotha sil most would get destroyed by the guards.

Some random AD came over to sotha sil from vivic for the pvp event, he tried to solo a resource and got destroyed, what did he say "this is a lot harder without cp."

If you can 1 v 6 in Vivic, you'd be lucky to 1 v 3 in Sitha.

There's a big difference between the 2 campaigns.

AhPook_Is_Here

Derra wrote: »

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

I think the whole CP/no CP thing is a decent division. Obviously some people enjoy both, and while it might be nice to add a CP option to BGs, it should be pretty obvious how in that scenario, game-play could be really bad.

From a population standpoint, the reason why queues are reasonable on vivic now is because people who want to play without CP have a place to play. If that was gone they would likely be queuing into Vivic. Why do I say that? Because even during the event Shor was awful, completely full, 6 or 7 flagged keeps and 1 or no crossed swords, players just avoiding each other to flip keeps and resources, and essentially just a pve and emp grind zone. The one thing Sotha Sil has in common with vivic is that the players want to have good fights, however, the definition of good fights between the two servers is different. I think as long as the game has the population to support 2 styles of PVP why not just let each group have fun? No point in being a rules autocrat!

Because dividing the playerbase into different pvp modes when the pvp playerbase is not growing (due to beforementiont reasons) leads to pvp slowly dying out as there are more players leaving than new ones picking up on it.

It´s not healthy for pvp to have a divided playerbase.

New players can play in the 1-50 cyrodiil and later the no-cp cyrodiil, either one is a level playing field for them. If anything is going to encourage new players to stay, it's going to be having a level playing field. If nothing else, the no-CP campaign is the incubator for newer players, and if you want to help your friends stay in the game, play with them there, and they are likely to have a more favorable impression of the game.

Myself, I play in both CP and non-CP and I have fun in both, and I would like to see both systems stay in existence. While I enjoy CP because of the crowds and larger fights, no-CP plays to me like a lot of the better patches this game has seen in the past. I think it is healthy in PVP to have options, and to see different faces and play against different players. The culture of each of these servers is different, I really don't see any reason to cram them together, or lower the diversity in the game. The only idea I can really support here is to just remove the CP system from the game in pvp and pve and substitute it into some cosmetic loyalty system enhancing farming time, bank space and so on.

Derra

Maikon wrote: »

And yes, the Non-CP campaign requires more skill. You need a different build that doesn't revolve around cp, you need to learn better resource management, and a better rotation.

Take resources for instance, any max cp player can solo steamroll a resource in vivic in under 30 sec, if they tried that in sotha sil most would get destroyed by the guards.

Some random AD came over to sotha sil from vivic for the pvp event, he tried to solo a resource and got destroyed, what did he say "this is a lot harder without cp."

If you can 1 v 6 in Vivic, you'd be lucky to 1 v 3 in Sitha.

There's a big difference between the 2 campaigns.

You don´t need to learn resource management or rotations. You just need different gear - which you ironically pointed out yourself.

Do i have to say how absurd it is that the first argument about how much harder "pvp" in nonCP is - is about fighting NPCs not players? Can you see the error in that?

If you can 4v8 in vivec you can 4v16 in sotha because most of the players go from being a threat to being a meatshield for their allies. As soon as you pack enough dmg in your grp nonCP is a cakewalk compared to CP.
It just shifts the balance towards numbers more as dmg to hp ratios are different.
Nothing about that is more or less skilled per se.

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

I think the whole CP/no CP thing is a decent division. Obviously some people enjoy both, and while it might be nice to add a CP option to BGs, it should be pretty obvious how in that scenario, game-play could be really bad.

From a population standpoint, the reason why queues are reasonable on vivic now is because people who want to play without CP have a place to play. If that was gone they would likely be queuing into Vivic. Why do I say that? Because even during the event Shor was awful, completely full, 6 or 7 flagged keeps and 1 or no crossed swords, players just avoiding each other to flip keeps and resources, and essentially just a pve and emp grind zone. The one thing Sotha Sil has in common with vivic is that the players want to have good fights, however, the definition of good fights between the two servers is different. I think as long as the game has the population to support 2 styles of PVP why not just let each group have fun? No point in being a rules autocrat!

Because dividing the playerbase into different pvp modes when the pvp playerbase is not growing (due to beforementiont reasons) leads to pvp slowly dying out as there are more players leaving than new ones picking up on it.

It´s not healthy for pvp to have a divided playerbase.

New players can play in the 1-50 cyrodiil and later the no-cp cyrodiil, either one is a level playing field for them. If anything is going to encourage new players to stay, it's going to be having a level playing field. If nothing else, the no-CP campaign is the incubator for newer players, and if you want to help your friends stay in the game, play with them there, and they are likely to have a more favorable impression of the game.

Ok what about the concept of a playerbase that is not growing (which is undeniably isn´t) being devided further into subgroups being bad do you not get?

What use have CP and nonCP campaigns if there are times where you just can´t play because there are not enough players on either of them.

This games pvp is not in a healthy state anymore during daytime because there are too few players spread around too many different campaigns and gamemodes.

I´d play only nonCP pvp aswell. I just don´t think it would go along well with efforts of balancing the game and having a "unified playing experience" that is desired by ZOS - because as pointed out by another person in this topic: NonCP needs different gear.

Durham

Vapirko wrote: »

No please don't enable CP. PvP is so much more enjoyable and less laggy without CP. At this time PvP really isn't that unbalanced. Frankly I think we need a no cp no proc set campaign.

Only less laggy due to lower pops CP has a minimal to no effect on lag .. This has been said 100 times on the boards ... It's been on the ZOS podcast still this propaganda persists...

Katahdin

Unfortunately if you get rid of one (CP vs nonCP), the players that only want that game mode will tend to just quit altogether rather than migrate to the other mode. Some will, but it's probably not the majority.

Getting rid of CP is the bugger risk imo, since it has the larger following that is more adamant about not going to the other mode.

AhPook_Is_Here

Katahdin wrote: »

Unfortunately if you get rid of one (CP vs nonCP), the players that only want that game mode will tend to just quit altogether rather than migrate to the other mode. Some will, but it's probably not the majority.

Getting rid of CP is the bugger risk imo, since it has the larger following that is more adamant about not going to the other mode.

I was going to make that point as well, if you close down no-CP it's not like all those players are just going to play on CP, some will stop PVPing some will quit the game and some will play on CP. Even closing Shor might not result in all those CP players moving to Vivic, but that's the better option between removing shor and sotha sil. Some people who just play on shor for farming, pve and emp flipping likely won't move to vivic but it would still give vivic a bump without alienating a bunch of no-CP players.

Derra

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

Katahdin wrote: »

Unfortunately if you get rid of one (CP vs nonCP), the players that only want that game mode will tend to just quit altogether rather than migrate to the other mode. Some will, but it's probably not the majority.

Getting rid of CP is the bugger risk imo, since it has the larger following that is more adamant about not going to the other mode.

I was going to make that point as well, if you close down no-CP it's not like all those players are just going to play on CP, some will stop PVPing some will quit the game and some will play on CP. Even closing Shor might not result in all those CP players moving to Vivic, but that's the better option between removing shor and sotha sil. Some people who just play on shor for farming, pve and emp flipping likely won't move to vivic but it would still give vivic a bump without alienating a bunch of no-CP players.

The point is nobody plays on shor during off hours in the first place.
What´s the point in closing a campaign to get the 10 people total playing there to move to vivec.

davey1107

@Maikon I disagree with your assessments about CP vs Non-CP. I respect that some players prefer one or the other, but mathematically non-CP play is skeever dung.

The reason is pretty simple. All of the current class skills, other passives and gear grew out of the evolving CP system. Because CPs were making players tankier, proc sets were introduced. Because CPs made heals stronger, the base ability amounts were adjusted. Costs were adjusted based on CP regen adjustments. And so forth. For two years every set and ability was refined as CPs were increasingly added in.

When you yank CPs out of the game, you're eliminating one side of the formula without making adjustments on the other side. Viper's Sting hits WAY too hard against a player with no hardy or elemental defender. Stamina toons who use magic dump abilities get slammed with super slow regen and super expensive skills.

The result is that some classes suffer tremendously and some gain monumental advantages. So I don't see non-cp play as requiring more skill. I see it as an avenue to exploit the game by taking advanatage of buffs and nerfs made because of the CP system with all the consequences of CPs removed. And I don't think excelling at this is exactly skill...it's just mastering a broken system.

I'm open to CPs being in the game or out of it, but if they were removed it would mean everything needs a complete rebalance, so that the crutches the non-cp players are leaning on are removed.

DKsUnite

Revert this mess to 1.5?

PainfulFAFA

DKsUnite wrote: »

Revert this mess to 1.5?

a PvP buff (battlespirit) that gives each class a form of 1.5 dynamic ultimate regen

Maikon

@davey1107

I see where you're coming from, but I can only give facts from my point of view, and that is that cp is a crutch.

I do both cp and non-cp, although non-cp is my preferred. As a magwarden DD in all light armor, I can do 1v4 if I play my cards right, maybe 1v5 in sotha, if I go into vivic, it's a *** joke, I can 1v6-8 while taking a resource solo.

If it is pve or pvp, cp obviously makes it way easier.

NightbladeMechanics

Non CP group play is way easier. People die way faster and have less ability to counter high damage.

Solo play is harder because procs and poisons are stronger. Take those out of the equation, and solo play is easier too, though, for the same reasons as group play.

Been there, done both. This has been my experience.

Valencer

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Non CP group play is way easier. People die way faster and have less ability to counter high damage.

Solo play is harder because procs and poisons are stronger. Take those out of the equation, and solo play is easier too, though, for the same reasons as group play.

Been there, done both. This has been my experience.

Pretty much this

Durham

Not sure why this argument is still going on lol.. The player base has pretty much rejected non CP... I don't do battle grounds mainly because it's no CP...

TBois

Just wanted to say that I play both cp and non-cp. I enjoy non-cp more but I play on vivec mostly because that is where most of the competition plays and where most of my friends play.

As far as one versus the other, my view is the ttk in cp is way too long for a lot of builds. I was thrilled that they made battlegrounds non-cp and hope it stays that way unless they do some extreme changes with cp.

So my realistic hope is that they keep both. My unrealistic hope is they revert to something similar to before cp (soft caps, dynamic ult, etc.)

Subversus

Durham wrote: »

Not sure why this argument is still going on lol.. The player base has pretty much rejected non CP... I don't do battle grounds mainly because it's no CP...

I don't do them because it's AvAvA. It's ***, imo. My brain is hard wired after years of WOW and SWTOR and fps games like counter strike to only enjoy team v team and it will never change for me. People that have ESO as their first game obviously like this gameplay style more, but I despise it...

Scyantific

TBois wrote: »

So my realistic hope is that they keep both. My unrealistic hope is they revert to something similar to before cp (soft caps, dynamic ult, etc.)

Please, that goes against every single tenet that Firor Wrobel and Lambert established after magDKs went through the Nerfening back shortly after launch. Making people think about their builds? Naaaahhh let's just make everything about stacking w/e is FOTM.

Emma_Overload

Katahdin wrote: »

Unfortunately if you get rid of one (CP vs nonCP), the players that only want that game mode will tend to just quit altogether rather than migrate to the other mode. Some will, but it's probably not the majority.

Getting rid of CP is the bugger risk imo, since it has the larger following that is more adamant about not going to the other mode.

I agree completely with this. Even though I campaigned for years for Battlegrounds, I refuse to play them because they won't even give us the OPTION of CP enabled. I really don't see why we can't simply have both CP and No-CP versions of BGs.

Publius_Scipio

- game balance
- further game performance improvements (lag)
- battlegrounds match type choice
- CP battlegrounds (because when the community railed against PvP with CP it was just to get ZOS punk'd)
- redesign the keeps and outposts in Cyrodiil to make them unique and make the siege and defense experiences fresh

technohic

Joy_Division wrote: »

What is fine in CP or no-CP is often problematic in the other. It's crazy to think that both of these - and PvE - can be juggled and balanced simultaneously.

Get rid of the CP system (while replacing the power stolen form players during the 1.6 patch), replace it with an end-game progression that does not have a huge generic powerspike, and unify the game so there is only one rule system to balance instead of 3.

Yeah I'm afraid this is what is needed but doubt we get it. I've found I can play in either since I've bounced around depending on where friends are but it just shows me we need to unify the population. In either case it can be too full to get on the same page as friends; or with the extra campaigns still running; it's 1 maybe 2 populated factions. Neither is healthy and all styles have legitimate pros and cons.

Bashev

I expected that more players will see how bad is this separation.
Imagine if PvE modes were:
1) All arenas only no CP
2) All dungons and open world only CP
3) For trials you could choose, either CP or no CP (players with less CP should be also competitive )

If the dev team makes a decision and choose only one of the paths it will be way easier for them to balance the game because they will reduce the number of the "variables".

Rickter

I have been preaching this for a long time.

There is too much fragmentation in ESO pvp. There is no unified vision.

CP Campaign
NoCP Campaign
CP Dueling
NoCP BGs

too much choice is not always a good thing. we need a unified vision for the game, and then optimize it.

I like noCP. but even as such, I think CP is the only direction to go in. as long as CP is in the game, it needs to be in PvP. strictly speaking in terms of choosing one over the other.