Playing Without Eye of the Storm/Negate/AOE Heal Shouldn't Feel so Bad

GrumpyDuckling

My biggest gripe with Cyrodiil right now is how bad it feels and how much it hurts my team if I want to play a build that doesn't use one of the following:

- Eye of the Storm
- Negate
- Large AOE Heal like Remembrance

Sure, my teammates don't hate me for slotting Toxic Barrage on my new poison build that I've been playing, but we all know that our group would fare a lot better if I had Eye of the Storm for keep pushes, a Negate for defense/assists, or Remembrance for healing/defense.

It just feels bad when our group narrowly loses out to an enemy group, and I know that we were one more destro ultimate + gap close away from turning our loss into a win, but instead I used a 175 cost single-target ultimate that went to waste because I got hit with a CC one second after my cast and the target enemy dodged. Maybe single target ultimates need to cost less, or AOE ultimates need to cost more. I don't know if that is the solution, but I know it feels bad not to use one of the three ultimates listed above.

zyk

So you feel bad because you're using the wrong tool for the job and think the game should be changed to suit that?

GrumpyDuckling

zyk wrote: »

So you feel bad because you're using the wrong tool for the job and think the game should be changed to suit that?

I'm confident in saying that based on conversations that devs had about balancing during past ESO Live episodes that the intent of the game is to be able to use multiple tools.

Your comment about "using the wrong tool for the job" doesn't make for a strong argument. For example, why should the magicka-based ultimate Eye of the Storm be the "right tool," when a stamina near-equivalent does not exist? You are suggesting that anyone who plays a stamina damage build is "using the wrong tool." That cuts out half of the games damage builds.

zyk

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Your comment about "using the wrong tool for the job" doesn't make for a strong argument. For example, why should the magicka-based ultimate Eye of the Storm be the "right tool," when a stamina near-equivalent does not exist? You are suggesting that anyone who plays a stamina damage build is "using the wrong tool." That cuts out half of the games damage builds.

I'm not saying any of this.

If you are fighting against multiple opponents, obviously an AE ult will be more efficient. The same is true when you are grouped. AE heals and ults with group synergies will be more effective.

It seems to me that you want your special snowflake build to be effective in a scenario in which other builds would be better suited.

Furthermore, there are strong Stamina AE ults. Dawnbreaker is awesome and synergizes very well with Steel Tornado. There are others. Plus because of the way ults work, you can use the Destro ult with a Stam build, just Magicka builds sometimes use Dawnbreaker or the 2H ult.

I have nothing against special snowflake builds. I am usually running one. I experiment all the time. But I accept the compromises I am making when I do. When I group, I run one of the builds the guild theorycrafters have designed to work well with one another. If I ran a special snowflake build in a guild group, not only would I feel bad, I'd be gkicked.

Vilestride

I understand your frustration with the meta and I agree that it could use some reveiw and balance

That being said there is always going to be a meta of some kind. If you are participating in group play you should be expected to optimize your build to optimize the groups performance.

I have to agree with zyk if you bring your single target ulti build hybrid or whatever to your raid you can't be surprised by sub par results.

Sanct16

I think to meant to say "Vicious Death" and not "Eye of Flame".

ToRelax

Sanct16 wrote: »

I think to meant to say "Vicious Death" and not "Eye of Flame".

That's not really it... sure, VD is useful, but the gap in effectiveness for (outnumbered or large scale) group play between VD and another strong set is much smaller than, say, EotS and Nova. Ultimates that fill a special support role like Negate can somewhat compete, but most are subpar compared to an expensive, short time ultimate of which AoE damage is the only purpose - because that means there'll be too much of it in order to make that ultimate competitive.

Vilestride

Meteor. Permafrost. Soul tether. Dawnbreaker. Trees. Dragon leap. All of these are other viable group ultimates. Obviously their raw damage out put isn't as high but regardless something is always going to do the most raw damage. This patch it happens to be bombblades.

Sanct16

ToRelax wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

I think to meant to say "Vicious Death" and not "Eye of Flame".

That's not really it... sure, VD is useful, but the gap in effectiveness for (outnumbered or large scale) group play between VD and another strong set is much smaller than, say, EotS and Nova. Ultimates that fill a special support role like Negate can somewhat compete, but most are subpar compared to an expensive, short time ultimate of which AoE damage is the only purpose - because that means there'll be too much of it in order to make that ultimate competitive.

I'd rather play with VD and no EotS than the other way around.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

You forgot sleetstorm on the list.

ArchMikem

zyk wrote: »

So you feel bad because you're using the wrong tool for the job and think the game should be changed to suit that?

There should never be a wrong choice. This is a video game, not a College Final.

NightbladeMechanics

ArchMikem wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

So you feel bad because you're using the wrong tool for the job and think the game should be changed to suit that?

There should never be a wrong choice. This is a video game, not a College Final.

Sounds like you want to play a really boring game.

HiImRex

As an aside anyone I see using steel tornado in cyrodil is pretty much a free kill

CyrusArya

If you want to enjoy PvP without feeling the need to use zerg tools, then don't zerg. There's a reason differing play styles are a thing. It won't be incumbent upon you to use these tools if you are playing solo or small scale where self sustenance and single target burst are more desirable.

Tonturri

ArchMikem wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

So you feel bad because you're using the wrong tool for the job and think the game should be changed to suit that?

There should never be a wrong choice. This is a video game, not a College Final.

I would like to kill players with Honor the Dead.

Keiryan

A sad reality right now is that eye of the storm has a huge area, is unblockable and can't be dodged as well as ticking on par with many burst if not higher when combined with the fact that you can use abilities like sap while it is going off. As much as I would love not using it, it just out performs most ulti in terms of dps.

It would be like going out to war and leaving your artillery and tanks (negate and eye) at your base and then wondering why you lost when the opposing side brought theirs. The tools are used because it is the best that is available and people want to win. It might not be as glorious of combat as running up and doing hand to hand combat, but if you want that you need to change the style of fighting you are aiming for.

Such is the ebb and flow of the way we fight, banners used to be amazing and they've basically been made obsolete cause why would I drop 250 ulti for a heal debuff when a warden can do it for 3000 magicka or whatever the cost.

Just have to adapt and wait for zos to make the next change that makes something else the prime choice.

Also I don't even think remembrance is required, it seems like everyone now a days is using resto ulti and performing far better since the healer doesn't get stuck in the back line doing a yoga position only to be run down cause the group had to namaste outta there

DisgracefulMind

Keiryan wrote: »

A sad reality right now is that eye of the storm has a huge area, is unblockable and can't be dodged as well as ticking on par with many burst if not higher when combined with the fact that you can use abilities like sap while it is going off. As much as I would love not using it, it just out performs most ulti in terms of dps.

It would be like going out to war and leaving your artillery and tanks (negate and eye) at your base and then wondering why you lost when the opposing side brought theirs. The tools are used because it is the best that is available and people want to win. It might not be as glorious of combat as running up and doing hand to hand combat, but if you want that you need to change the style of fighting you are aiming for.

Such is the ebb and flow of the way we fight, banners used to be amazing and they've basically been made obsolete cause why would I drop 250 ulti for a heal debuff when a warden can do it for 3000 magicka or whatever the cost.

Just have to adapt and wait for zos to make the next change that makes something else the prime choice.

Also I don't even think remembrance is required, it seems like everyone now a days is using resto ulti and performing far better since the healer doesn't get stuck in the back line doing a yoga position only to be run down cause the group had to namaste outta there

omg lol

CatchMeTrolling

Keiryan wrote: »

performing far better since the healer doesn't get stuck in the back line doing a yoga position only to be run down cause the group had to namaste outta there

Third eye never saw it coming.

Vilestride

Keiryan wrote: »

A sad reality right now is that eye of the storm has a huge area, is unblockable and can't be dodged as well as ticking on par with many burst if not higher when combined with the fact that you can use abilities like sap while it is going off. As much as I would love not using it, it just out performs most ulti in terms of dps.

It would be like going out to war and leaving your artillery and tanks (negate and eye) at your base and then wondering why you lost when the opposing side brought theirs. The tools are used because it is the best that is available and people want to win. It might not be as glorious of combat as running up and doing hand to hand combat, but if you want that you need to change the style of fighting you are aiming for.

Such is the ebb and flow of the way we fight, banners used to be amazing and they've basically been made obsolete cause why would I drop 250 ulti for a heal debuff when a warden can do it for 3000 magicka or whatever the cost.

Just have to adapt and wait for zos to make the next change that makes something else the prime choice.

Also I don't even think remembrance is required, it seems like everyone now a days is using resto ulti and performing far better since the healer doesn't get stuck in the back line doing a yoga position only to be run down cause the group had to namaste outta there

Yoga keeps us fit for the long run back to group.

Vizier

The EOF ultimate is just too effective as compared to other AOE damage ultimates. I'm also convinced there is something buggy about spell penetration and or critical damage from them.

It used to be people spamming Bat Swarm and impulse running the same tactic as what we see now. Before that it was something else and after that it was something else.

ZoS has shown a particular lack of ability or will with balancing ultimate abilities and some magic damage abilities....just saying.

Dreyloch

I would look at it like this OP.

If your on a hokey team, your team has 5 players and a goalie on the ice. Obviously the goalie needs to wear more protection. But if one of the other players like a Winger or Defense men decided.. ."Hey I wanna wear goalie gear instead"...How much less effective would that team become?

Basically what I'm saying is, in order to play "as" or "on" a team. You have to think of what to run to help your team be better, and more efficient. Single target Ulti's should be used when your solo or maybe even in a small group of like 6 or less? I have a totally different setup for raids VS. solo/small man myself. Sometimes I hate the build I have for raids, but ya know what? The raid does better when I do.

Sandman929

EotS/VD/Negate/Proxy/Healers...the basics anyway. I see lots of other groups firing their bows at the group, trying to dawnbreaker them to death, it's all hopeless. If you play in a group in Cyrodiil, you run this setup or you die to it. And even you do run this setup you occasionally die to it, because the counter to a group running this way is another group running this way or a massive enough zerg to overwhelm.
ZOS seems to have no interest in changing this, or more likely no awareness about it apart from the fact that they think players feel awesome while doing it and therefore their job is done.
I'm a little surprised that more people utilizing this group setup aren't speaking out for changes. Sure, if something changes and this particular flavor of group play isn't viable they'll move on to another group build that is viable. Coordinated groups are always going to outplay pugs and solo players will always be trampled under their boots despite the fact that a solo player isn't what the groups are trying to fight...they're just occasionally in the way or collateral damage. But isn't anyone else bored of this group setup yet? It's fun to be effective in Cyrodiil, and when the tight coordination and movement pays off and you wipe far more than your numbers it's an amazing thing, but it's just been going on this way for sooooooo long now.
Wouldn't you at least like to see some change to compel you to do something different? I'm a little bored of the destro ulti, personally.

Neoauspex

It's stupid that the most effective team is just all destro bombers, and it's stupid that this is an intentional band-aid for server performance.

Publius_Scipio

People have gone into the eye of the storm, collected data, and come back home safe for a long time now.



I intend to be the first in ESO to go into the eye of the storm, shatter the knee caps of every single Dracarys member, and then walk out the other side where a rainbow appears.

Sandman929

Neoauspex wrote: »

It's stupid that the most effective team is just all destro bombers, and it's stupid that this is an intentional band-aid for server performance.

That's not what the groups are. It's not all destro bombers, but I agree. The group meta is beyond stale.

apostate9

ArchMikem wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

So you feel bad because you're using the wrong tool for the job and think the game should be changed to suit that?

There should never be a wrong choice. This is a video game, not a College Final.

So in games, all strategies should work just as well all the time?? WTF?

Noted.

IxSTALKERxI

Was bored of destro ult 8 months ago lol.

Keiryan

What if they actually made it so eye of the storm actually had an eye to the storm.. and it only dealt damage within a 6 to 8 metre radius around the caster :0

crusnik91

The thing that makes it even harder if a 20 man group uses plague doctor with 35k++ health and has 5 healing springs on the group everytime.
As for your argument it has always been magicka > stamina for larger group play. If u want stamina classes to be useful (as in being a damage dealer) go in a smaller scale group. That is where stamina shines the best. There are of course roles for stamina builds in larger group play but they are just not the main AOE damage dealer.

Satiar

crusnik91 wrote: »

The thing that makes it even harder if a 20 man group uses plague doctor with 35k++ health and has 5 healing springs on the group everytime.
As for your argument it has always been magicka > stamina for larger group play. If u want stamina classes to be useful (as in being a damage dealer) go in a smaller scale group. That is where stamina shines the best. There are of course roles for stamina builds in larger group play but they are just not the main AOE damage dealer.

Yeah you negate those guys to kill them. Gotta remove thier mobility and ground healing.

Sanct16

Satiar wrote: »

crusnik91 wrote: »

The thing that makes it even harder if a 20 man group uses plague doctor with 35k++ health and has 5 healing springs on the group everytime.
As for your argument it has always been magicka > stamina for larger group play. If u want stamina classes to be useful (as in being a damage dealer) go in a smaller scale group. That is where stamina shines the best. There are of course roles for stamina builds in larger group play but they are just not the main AOE damage dealer.

Yeah you negate those guys to kill them. Gotta remove thier mobility and ground healing.

How about we release a 2p set that removes all ground effect including negate?