Healer weapon Trait: Power vs Precise

Jeremy

Tasear wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

In terms of average healing output, Powered is always better than Precise, regardless of your crit chance.

That isn't what my testing showed.

Boosting my critical chance to where I could reliably crit with my heals was more more effective at healing my character than was increasing it through raw percentages. For example: I compared Precise/Thief to Powered/Ritual. Precise/Thief gave me stronger heals more often.

So we've had different experiences there.

what's your critical?

72%.

That's why seems like earlier we determine standards buffs (mage light, potions, sorc passive) any increase in critical seems to make precise the better choice. Along with the obvious aftereffects for hybrids healers/dps.

That's what I suspect too. For characters that indulge in high critical rates precise becomes more effective at healing because it adds to the build's strength. For example: it wasn't uncommon for all all my healing over time spells to land critical through-out an entire rotation.

But as I added in my previous post: there might be other factors involved as well besides just your critical chance. Such as what specific spells and buffs you use, where you put your CP points, what sets you use.... etc. Every build is likely to have different results.

That's why it's probably best for you to just go and find something that hits hard (like a World boss) and throw up all your healing spells and see which keeps your HP up better (that's what I did).

Taleof2Cities

Jeremy wrote: »

72%.

It's easy enough to test to see which is better for you. Just go find something that hits hard (like a World boss maybe) and throw up all your HoTs and see which keeps your HP up better (that's what I did).

There might be other factors involved as well besides just your critical chance. Such as what specific spells and buffs you use, where you put your CP points etc. Every build is likely to interact with it differently and have different results.

Are you willing to share your build with us, @Jeremy?

72% crit is very good for DPS ... but seems high for a healer. Especially if you're running defending on your weapons.

Are other resources taking an unnecessary hit cause you're trying to max crit ... such as total magicka?

Jeremy

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

72%.

It's easy enough to test to see which is better for you. Just go find something that hits hard (like a World boss maybe) and throw up all your HoTs and see which keeps your HP up better (that's what I did).

There might be other factors involved as well besides just your critical chance. Such as what specific spells and buffs you use, where you put your CP points etc. Every build is likely to interact with it differently and have different results.

Are you willing to share your build with us, @Jeremy?

72% crit is very good for DPS ... but seems high for a healer. Especially if you're running defending on your weapons.

Are other resources taking an unnecessary hit cause you're trying to max crit ... such as total magicka?

I have a lot of different builds that I use on my healer and am constantly trying out new ones. My favorite build (and the one I am usually on) runs defending on my weapons (not the critical build I was referring to). That one I only use when I need a lot of healing power.

The critical build I was talking about uses a combination of Twice Born Star (Atronach/Thief), Mother's Sorrow, Precise on my staff along with Ice Heart Shoulders. It does quite a bit more healing than my other build. But it's also a lot easier to kill because it lacks a good defense.

I've come to the conclusion that the best way to stay alive on this game is a combination of good heals and good defense. That wins out over great heals and bad defense IMHO. But in terms of pure healing power - I would have to give the edge to a high crit build - at least from my own experiences.

paulsimonps

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Unless it's changed since Morrowind then nirnhoned should still give bigger heals than powered.

Precise would depend on your build and would probably win out over time, but I'd rather have bigger heals without having to rely on a crit.

On the flip side if you're dead then you can't heal so defending is always a good option as well.

wait wait... nirnhoned increases heals, by 10% is that what you are saying... not just damage?

Heals scale off of spell damage and max magic so increasing your spell damage also increases your heals. There is probably some threshold that if your spell damage is really low then powered might be better, but when I tested it I had 2600 spell power and I was getting much bigger heals with nirnhoned then powered.

Wearing sets that increase healing might put powered on top, not sure how that passive would scale with nirn vs powered since eso can sometimes use some real fuzzy math xD

Its the other way, the higher max magicka and spell power you have the more Powered gets you. Cause its 7% of what you get after the magicka and spell power gives you. Samething goes with any type of healing done bonus.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

@Jeremy that build is not very good, no support, no spc, no worm, no trans, no nothing but self buff, that is the standard definition of a bad healer.

it really is simple math. powered will give you higher average heals then precise. it is similar to the ritual mundas vs thief.

from an earlier post by me

To calculate the average heal you will get, you need to know your crit hit damage increase, that is the amount your heal will crit for.

For example, I am a temp, so I get 10% more CHD from the adrid spear passive and I have 24% into elfborn, so together that adds 34% to the base of 50% extra, so .84.

Then you take the amount of crit chance I have without the thief, 42% and the amount I have with the thief, 58% and then multiply then out like this

.84*.42= .35

.84*.58=.49

And then subtract them, so 49-35= 14, which is the same amount I get from the ritual, note that I do not have full divines nor are all my pieces fully golded out.

Also take into consideration that the above is likely best case scenario, you lose any one of the needed buffs to reach the CHD and the CHC I have stated, ie major prophecy or if you are not a temp or nightblade for the extra 10% CHD, the ritual will be the best way to increase your heals, full stop. Though there is a good argument for healers doing damage and the ritual does nothing for that.

To take this with powered VS precise, you do the same math, you take your Crit hit damage modifier, at base is .5, then multiply it by your crit chance, then you get your average healing increase.


At base, without the thief most healers will have 42% crit chance, in pve, so they will go to 51% with precise, so taking into consideration that the OP is a sorc and does not have the same 10% increase in CHD as a templar but you are a sorc, so you are even better off with powered then a templar would be, as your CHD would not be as high.

let's take a case with a sorc wearing worm and spc, staple healer sets that have no crit bonus and are expected in any serious content.

45% crit chance and a base .5 CHD, a .25 increase to CHD from champion points, so togther, .75

.45 * .75 = .34 < without precise

with precise, it would be

.54 * .75 = .41 < with precise

that leaves .41 - . 34 = .07, that is a gain of 7% average increase in heals, which is less the straight 9% from powered.

best case with a sorc would look like this with warhorn for .15 more CHD

.45 * .9 = .41 < without precise

and

.54 * .9 = .49 < with precise

so again .49- .41 = .08, so that is a gain of 8% in heals a best case for a sorc, still less overall healing then 9% powered.

now let's do yours @Jeremy

not using any set the supports your team, it is easy to get to 65% with just thief and julianos, that leaves 7% with precise to get to 72% on a non sorc, so your base is going to be 65% and i am going to use the current value, 7%, instead the the buffed values both precise and powered are receiving next patch.


Best case is that you are a templar, so you get an extra 10% CHD, so you get a base of .85 if you have the elf born node max, which you will if you are smart and want to get he most of you high crit chance.

that is

.65 * .85 = .55 < without precise

and

.72 * .85 = .61 <with precise

that is .61 - .55 = .06, you get 6% more average heals with precise, still less then the 7% from powered.


even if you use mother's sorrow, which gives 7% crit chance on the five piece, you get the following,

.72 * .85 = .61 < without precise

and

.79 * .85 = .67 < with precise

leaving you with .67 - .61= .06, a 6% increase in average heals, again less then the 7% from powered currently.





that is the long version of powered > precise when it comes to pure healing.



it is also important to note, that if you use any set that heals like twilight remedy, it gets no benefit from precise, since sets can not crit at all but can be increased by healing done percentage modifiers.

IronCrystal

Use defending in a trial. It gives a ton of resistance to keep you alive. You overheal anyways.

At least for the current patch.

WuffyCerulei

I gotta ask my healer friends...

Tasear

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@Jeremy that build is not very good, no support, no spc, no worm, no trans, no nothing but self buff, that is the standard definition of a bad healer.

it really is simple math. powered will give you higher average heals then precise. it is similar to the ritual mundas vs thief.

from an earlier post by me

To calculate the average heal you will get, you need to know your crit hit damage increase, that is the amount your heal will crit for.

For example, I am a temp, so I get 10% more CHD from the adrid spear passive and I have 24% into elfborn, so together that adds 34% to the base of 50% extra, so .84.

Then you take the amount of crit chance I have without the thief, 42% and the amount I have with the thief, 58% and then multiply then out like this

.84*.42= .35

.84*.58=.49

And then subtract them, so 49-35= 14, which is the same amount I get from the ritual, note that I do not have full divines nor are all my pieces fully golded out.

Also take into consideration that the above is likely best case scenario, you lose any one of the needed buffs to reach the CHD and the CHC I have stated, ie major prophecy or if you are not a temp or nightblade for the extra 10% CHD, the ritual will be the best way to increase your heals, full stop. Though there is a good argument for healers doing damage and the ritual does nothing for that.

To take this with powered VS precise, you do the same math, you take your Crit hit damage modifier, at base is .5, then multiply it by your crit chance, then you get your average healing increase.


At base, without the thief most healers will have 42% crit chance, in pve, so they will go to 51% with precise, so taking into consideration that the OP is a sorc and does not have the same 10% increase in CHD as a templar but you are a sorc, so you are even better off with powered then a templar would be, as your CHD would not be as high.

let's take a case with a sorc wearing worm and spc, staple healer sets that have no crit bonus and are expected in any serious content.

45% crit chance and a base .5 CHD, a .25 increase to CHD from champion points, so togther, .75

.45 * .75 = .34 < without precise

with precise, it would be

.54 * .75 = .41 < with precise

that leaves .41 - . 34 = .07, that is a gain of 7% average increase in heals, which is less the straight 9% from powered.

best case with a sorc would look like this with warhorn for .15 more CHD

.45 * .9 = .41 < without precise

and

.54 * .9 = .49 < with precise

so again .49- .41 = .08, so that is a gain of 8% in heals a best case for a sorc, still less overall healing then 9% powered.

now let's do yours @Jeremy

not using any set the supports your team, it is easy to get to 65% with just thief and julianos, that leaves 7% with precise to get to 72% on a non sorc, so your base is going to be 65% and i am going to use the current value, 7%, instead the the buffed values both precise and powered are receiving next patch.


Best case is that you are a templar, so you get an extra 10% CHD, so you get a base of .85 if you have the elf born node max, which you will if you are smart and want to get he most of you high crit chance.

that is

.65 * .85 = .55 < without precise

and

.72 * .85 = .61 <with precise

that is .61 - .55 = .06, you get 6% more average heals with precise, still less then the 7% from powered.


even if you use mother's sorrow, which gives 7% crit chance on the five piece, you get the following,

.72 * .85 = .61 < without precise

and

.79 * .85 = .67 < with precise

leaving you with .67 - .61= .06, a 6% increase in average heals, again less then the 7% from powered currently.





that is the long version of powered > precise when it comes to pure healing.



it is also important to note, that if you use any set that heals like twilight remedy, it gets no benefit from precise, since sets can not crit at all but can be increased by healing done percentage modifiers.

Thanks for the explanation. This seems to be what I was looking for.

Septimus_Magna

Tasear wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

I think it depends on your spell crit but in general its better to run powered.

Powered 7% healing done:
Assuming 45% spell crit
Normal heal: 5k
Crit heal: 7,5k
Average heal: 5k x 0.55 + 7,5k x 0.44 = 6,125k +7% = 6,55k

Precise 7% spell crit:
Assuming 52% spell crit
Normal heal: 5k
Crit heal: 7,5k
Average heal: 5k x 0,48 + 7,5k x 0.52 = 6.3k

But wait isn't the base spell crtical for most healers around 32%

Average heal: 5k x 0.55 + 7,5k x 0.32 =3280k +7% = 3,509k ?

Most healers run Inner Light or spell crit potions which gets your spell crit to 42%. Sorcs in group can give minor prophecy which is another 3% spell crit but its not a very common buff.

The calculation was just a quick way to show the difference with a relative normal spell crit rating.

Thanks I had forgotten to consider potions. On that note.. is powered better without inner light?

Powered average heal with 32% spell crit: 6,206k
Precise average heal with 39% spell crit: 5,975k

Powered performs 3,87% better

*precise will probably be better with shadow mundus

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

I think it depends on your spell crit but in general its better to run powered.

Powered 7% healing done:
Assuming 45% spell crit
Normal heal: 5k
Crit heal: 7,5k
Average heal: 5k x 0.55 + 7,5k x 0.44 = 6,125k +7% = 6,55k

Precise 7% spell crit:
Assuming 52% spell crit
Normal heal: 5k
Crit heal: 7,5k
Average heal: 5k x 0,48 + 7,5k x 0.52 = 6.3k

But wait isn't the base spell crtical for most healers around 32%

Average heal: 5k x 0.55 + 7,5k x 0.32 =3280k +7% = 3,509k ?

Most healers run Inner Light or spell crit potions which gets your spell crit to 42%. Sorcs in group can give minor prophecy which is another 3% spell crit but its not a very common buff.

The calculation was just a quick way to show the difference with a relative normal spell crit rating.

Thanks I had forgotten to consider potions. On that note.. is powered better without inner light?

Powered average heal with 32% spell crit: 6,206k
Precise average heal with 39% spell crit: 5,975k

Powered performs 3,87% better

*precise will probably be better with shadow mundus

lets see.

the shadow gives 18% crit hit damage, so a sorc will have a base crit of 45% and a CHD modifier of 75% at max cp, note that i am using the 9% from the next patch here-

.54 * .75 = .41 < with precise/without shadow


.54 * .93 = .5 < with precise/with shadow

.5 - .41 = .09, that is 9% more heals. the same as powered. though to get that, you give up the ritual, which gives 15% more healing to all your heals, proc sets included. or you give up 363 base regen with the atro.

paulsimonps

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

I think it depends on your spell crit but in general its better to run powered.

Powered 7% healing done:
Assuming 45% spell crit
Normal heal: 5k
Crit heal: 7,5k
Average heal: 5k x 0.55 + 7,5k x 0.44 = 6,125k +7% = 6,55k

Precise 7% spell crit:
Assuming 52% spell crit
Normal heal: 5k
Crit heal: 7,5k
Average heal: 5k x 0,48 + 7,5k x 0.52 = 6.3k

But wait isn't the base spell crtical for most healers around 32%

Average heal: 5k x 0.55 + 7,5k x 0.32 =3280k +7% = 3,509k ?

Most healers run Inner Light or spell crit potions which gets your spell crit to 42%. Sorcs in group can give minor prophecy which is another 3% spell crit but its not a very common buff.

The calculation was just a quick way to show the difference with a relative normal spell crit rating.

Thanks I had forgotten to consider potions. On that note.. is powered better without inner light?

Powered average heal with 32% spell crit: 6,206k
Precise average heal with 39% spell crit: 5,975k

Powered performs 3,87% better

*precise will probably be better with shadow mundus

lets see.

the shadow gives 18% crit hit damage, so a sorc will have a base crit of 45% and a CHD modifier of 75% at max cp, note that i am using the 9% from the next patch here-

.54 * .75 = .41 < with precise/without shadow


.54 * .93 = .5 < with precise/with shadow

.5 - .41 = .09, that is 9% more heals. the same as powered. though to get that, you give up the ritual, which gives 15% more healing to all your heals, proc sets included. or you give up 363 base regen with the atro.

Since crit severity is additive, I am thinking, would it not be better to use the Ritual, gives 15% Healing Done, but that is multiplicative with the base heal and would of course be multiplicative with the base crit severity. Its late so can't do the math now, but its something to consider. Of course though all sources of Healing done, including mending, is additive with each other.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

paulsimonps wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

I think it depends on your spell crit but in general its better to run powered.

Powered 7% healing done:
Assuming 45% spell crit
Normal heal: 5k
Crit heal: 7,5k
Average heal: 5k x 0.55 + 7,5k x 0.44 = 6,125k +7% = 6,55k

Precise 7% spell crit:
Assuming 52% spell crit
Normal heal: 5k
Crit heal: 7,5k
Average heal: 5k x 0,48 + 7,5k x 0.52 = 6.3k

But wait isn't the base spell crtical for most healers around 32%

Average heal: 5k x 0.55 + 7,5k x 0.32 =3280k +7% = 3,509k ?

Most healers run Inner Light or spell crit potions which gets your spell crit to 42%. Sorcs in group can give minor prophecy which is another 3% spell crit but its not a very common buff.

The calculation was just a quick way to show the difference with a relative normal spell crit rating.

Thanks I had forgotten to consider potions. On that note.. is powered better without inner light?

Powered average heal with 32% spell crit: 6,206k
Precise average heal with 39% spell crit: 5,975k

Powered performs 3,87% better

*precise will probably be better with shadow mundus

lets see.

the shadow gives 18% crit hit damage, so a sorc will have a base crit of 45% and a CHD modifier of 75% at max cp, note that i am using the 9% from the next patch here-

.54 * .75 = .41 < with precise/without shadow


.54 * .93 = .5 < with precise/with shadow

.5 - .41 = .09, that is 9% more heals. the same as powered. though to get that, you give up the ritual, which gives 15% more healing to all your heals, proc sets included. or you give up 363 base regen with the atro.

Since crit severity is additive, I am thinking, would it not be better to use the Ritual, gives 15% Healing Done, but that is multiplicative with the base heal and would of course be multiplicative with the base crit severity. Its late so can't do the math now, but its something to consider. Of course though all sources of Healing done, including mending, is additive with each other.

Yes, it would be and I did point this out, that to get that parity, that you would drop the ritual or the atro, both more useful to a healer in my opinion.

Your point about healing done being additive is a good one. That the more percentage increase you get, the less they are worth, ie, you have the ritual, so you have a modifier of 1.15 and the you get powered, you now have a modifier of 1.24, so it is really a 8% increase in heals not 9%, because 1.24/1.15 is 1.08. This is a valid concern, though like I keep saying, proc sets, like the heal on twilight remedy can not crit, so crit rating in general is worthless to those who use those sets.

Tasear

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

I think it depends on your spell crit but in general its better to run powered.

Powered 7% healing done:
Assuming 45% spell crit
Normal heal: 5k
Crit heal: 7,5k
Average heal: 5k x 0.55 + 7,5k x 0.44 = 6,125k +7% = 6,55k

Precise 7% spell crit:
Assuming 52% spell crit
Normal heal: 5k
Crit heal: 7,5k
Average heal: 5k x 0,48 + 7,5k x 0.52 = 6.3k

But wait isn't the base spell crtical for most healers around 32%

Average heal: 5k x 0.55 + 7,5k x 0.32 =3280k +7% = 3,509k ?

Most healers run Inner Light or spell crit potions which gets your spell crit to 42%. Sorcs in group can give minor prophecy which is another 3% spell crit but its not a very common buff.

The calculation was just a quick way to show the difference with a relative normal spell crit rating.

Thanks I had forgotten to consider potions. On that note.. is powered better without inner light?

Powered average heal with 32% spell crit: 6,206k
Precise average heal with 39% spell crit: 5,975k

Powered performs 3,87% better

*precise will probably be better with shadow mundus

lets see.

the shadow gives 18% crit hit damage, so a sorc will have a base crit of 45% and a CHD modifier of 75% at max cp, note that i am using the 9% from the next patch here-

.54 * .75 = .41 < with precise/without shadow


.54 * .93 = .5 < with precise/with shadow

.5 - .41 = .09, that is 9% more heals. the same as powered. though to get that, you give up the ritual, which gives 15% more healing to all your heals, proc sets included. or you give up 363 base regen with the atro.

Since crit severity is additive, I am thinking, would it not be better to use the Ritual, gives 15% Healing Done, but that is multiplicative with the base heal and would of course be multiplicative with the base crit severity. Its late so can't do the math now, but its something to consider. Of course though all sources of Healing done, including mending, is additive with each other.

Yes, it would be and I did point this out, that to get that parity, that you would drop the ritual or the atro, both more useful to a healer in my opinion.

Your point about healing done being additive is a good one. That the more percentage increase you get, the less they are worth, ie, you have the ritual, so you have a modifier of 1.15 and the you get powered, you now have a modifier of 1.24, so it is really a 8% increase in heals not 9%, because 1.24/1.15 is 1.08. This is a valid concern, though like I keep saying, proc sets, like the heal on twilight remedy can not crit, so crit rating in general is worthless to those who use those sets.

So it would seems if you are doing pure support such in a trial (12 man dungeon) then power is the wisest choice, but if you your version of support means "more dps less damage to allies" than precise is best choice on resto staff. If I understood this properly. Following up on the last line, it would seems precise would be more useful to those who tend to do 4 man content, as there's a less chance to get stuck on a dps check, with the lack of dps (assuming you are doing decent dps 10k dps) .

Also again thank you for your valuable insight. It's what I assumed, but had my doubts and really wanted clarity on this issue.

Jeremy

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@Jeremy that build is not very good, no support, no spc, no worm, no trans, no nothing but self buff, that is the standard definition of a bad healer.

it really is simple math. powered will give you higher average heals then precise. it is similar to the ritual mundas vs thief.

from an earlier post by me

To calculate the average heal you will get, you need to know your crit hit damage increase, that is the amount your heal will crit for.

For example, I am a temp, so I get 10% more CHD from the adrid spear passive and I have 24% into elfborn, so together that adds 34% to the base of 50% extra, so .84.

Then you take the amount of crit chance I have without the thief, 42% and the amount I have with the thief, 58% and then multiply then out like this

.84*.42= .35

.84*.58=.49

And then subtract them, so 49-35= 14, which is the same amount I get from the ritual, note that I do not have full divines nor are all my pieces fully golded out.

Also take into consideration that the above is likely best case scenario, you lose any one of the needed buffs to reach the CHD and the CHC I have stated, ie major prophecy or if you are not a temp or nightblade for the extra 10% CHD, the ritual will be the best way to increase your heals, full stop. Though there is a good argument for healers doing damage and the ritual does nothing for that.

To take this with powered VS precise, you do the same math, you take your Crit hit damage modifier, at base is .5, then multiply it by your crit chance, then you get your average healing increase.


At base, without the thief most healers will have 42% crit chance, in pve, so they will go to 51% with precise, so taking into consideration that the OP is a sorc and does not have the same 10% increase in CHD as a templar but you are a sorc, so you are even better off with powered then a templar would be, as your CHD would not be as high.

let's take a case with a sorc wearing worm and spc, staple healer sets that have no crit bonus and are expected in any serious content.

45% crit chance and a base .5 CHD, a .25 increase to CHD from champion points, so togther, .75

.45 * .75 = .34 < without precise

with precise, it would be

.54 * .75 = .41 < with precise

that leaves .41 - . 34 = .07, that is a gain of 7% average increase in heals, which is less the straight 9% from powered.

best case with a sorc would look like this with warhorn for .15 more CHD

.45 * .9 = .41 < without precise

and

.54 * .9 = .49 < with precise

so again .49- .41 = .08, so that is a gain of 8% in heals a best case for a sorc, still less overall healing then 9% powered.

now let's do yours @Jeremy

not using any set the supports your team, it is easy to get to 65% with just thief and julianos, that leaves 7% with precise to get to 72% on a non sorc, so your base is going to be 65% and i am going to use the current value, 7%, instead the the buffed values both precise and powered are receiving next patch.


Best case is that you are a templar, so you get an extra 10% CHD, so you get a base of .85 if you have the elf born node max, which you will if you are smart and want to get he most of you high crit chance.

that is

.65 * .85 = .55 < without precise

and

.72 * .85 = .61 <with precise

that is .61 - .55 = .06, you get 6% more average heals with precise, still less then the 7% from powered.


even if you use mother's sorrow, which gives 7% crit chance on the five piece, you get the following,

.72 * .85 = .61 < without precise

and

.79 * .85 = .67 < with precise

leaving you with .67 - .61= .06, a 6% increase in average heals, again less then the 7% from powered currently.





that is the long version of powered > precise when it comes to pure healing.



it is also important to note, that if you use any set that heals like twilight remedy, it gets no benefit from precise, since sets can not crit at all but can be increased by healing done percentage modifiers.

Long version indeed.

I'll confess I did not read all of this, so keep that in mind if you respond. Your suggestion that any healer not wearing worm, spc, or trans is a bad healer is of course ridiculous. So I'm not going to dignify that absurd generality with an argument.

Certainly there are better support builds out there. The build I posted was not designed to support. It was a build I threw together to achieve high critical chance so I could compare and see how it measured up against a build that utilized straight healing increases (Powered, Healer's Habit, Ritual Mundus etc.) And after my tests I concluded that high spell critical builds achieved more effective healing.

Now you are welcome to disagree with me if you like. As I pointed out - there are likely other factors involved that may influence the results. But posting a lot of numbers on a forum are not going to convince me that my own tests were somehow flawed as I witnessed them myself. That being said: I am perfectly content to agree to disagree about this.

The only thing I would say further is to encourage other aspiring healers on here to try high spell crit builds out on their own before dismissing them. Because there are a lot of healers I know who stack crit and after testing it myself (mostly out of curiosity) I understand why. It's good - even though I personally prefer other more defensive builds.

paulsimonps

Jeremy wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@Jeremy that build is not very good, no support, no spc, no worm, no trans, no nothing but self buff, that is the standard definition of a bad healer.

it really is simple math. powered will give you higher average heals then precise. it is similar to the ritual mundas vs thief.

from an earlier post by me

To calculate the average heal you will get, you need to know your crit hit damage increase, that is the amount your heal will crit for.

For example, I am a temp, so I get 10% more CHD from the adrid spear passive and I have 24% into elfborn, so together that adds 34% to the base of 50% extra, so .84.

Then you take the amount of crit chance I have without the thief, 42% and the amount I have with the thief, 58% and then multiply then out like this

.84*.42= .35

.84*.58=.49

And then subtract them, so 49-35= 14, which is the same amount I get from the ritual, note that I do not have full divines nor are all my pieces fully golded out.

Also take into consideration that the above is likely best case scenario, you lose any one of the needed buffs to reach the CHD and the CHC I have stated, ie major prophecy or if you are not a temp or nightblade for the extra 10% CHD, the ritual will be the best way to increase your heals, full stop. Though there is a good argument for healers doing damage and the ritual does nothing for that.

To take this with powered VS precise, you do the same math, you take your Crit hit damage modifier, at base is .5, then multiply it by your crit chance, then you get your average healing increase.


At base, without the thief most healers will have 42% crit chance, in pve, so they will go to 51% with precise, so taking into consideration that the OP is a sorc and does not have the same 10% increase in CHD as a templar but you are a sorc, so you are even better off with powered then a templar would be, as your CHD would not be as high.

let's take a case with a sorc wearing worm and spc, staple healer sets that have no crit bonus and are expected in any serious content.

45% crit chance and a base .5 CHD, a .25 increase to CHD from champion points, so togther, .75

.45 * .75 = .34 < without precise

with precise, it would be

.54 * .75 = .41 < with precise

that leaves .41 - . 34 = .07, that is a gain of 7% average increase in heals, which is less the straight 9% from powered.

best case with a sorc would look like this with warhorn for .15 more CHD

.45 * .9 = .41 < without precise

and

.54 * .9 = .49 < with precise

so again .49- .41 = .08, so that is a gain of 8% in heals a best case for a sorc, still less overall healing then 9% powered.

now let's do yours @Jeremy

not using any set the supports your team, it is easy to get to 65% with just thief and julianos, that leaves 7% with precise to get to 72% on a non sorc, so your base is going to be 65% and i am going to use the current value, 7%, instead the the buffed values both precise and powered are receiving next patch.


Best case is that you are a templar, so you get an extra 10% CHD, so you get a base of .85 if you have the elf born node max, which you will if you are smart and want to get he most of you high crit chance.

that is

.65 * .85 = .55 < without precise

and

.72 * .85 = .61 <with precise

that is .61 - .55 = .06, you get 6% more average heals with precise, still less then the 7% from powered.


even if you use mother's sorrow, which gives 7% crit chance on the five piece, you get the following,

.72 * .85 = .61 < without precise

and

.79 * .85 = .67 < with precise

leaving you with .67 - .61= .06, a 6% increase in average heals, again less then the 7% from powered currently.





that is the long version of powered > precise when it comes to pure healing.



it is also important to note, that if you use any set that heals like twilight remedy, it gets no benefit from precise, since sets can not crit at all but can be increased by healing done percentage modifiers.

Long version indeed.

I'll confess I did not read all of this, so keep that in mind if you respond. Your suggestion that any healer not wearing worm, spc, or trans is a bad healer is of course ridiculous. So I'm not going to dignify that absurd generality with an argument.

Certainly there are better support builds out there. The build I posted was not designed to support. It was a build I threw together to achieve high critical chance so I could compare and see how it measured up against a build that utilized straight healing increases (Powered, Healer's Habit, Ritual Mundus etc.) And after my tests I concluded that high Critical chance builds achieved more effective healing.

Now you are welcome to disagree with me if you like. As I pointed out - there are likely other factors involved that may influence the results. But posting a lot of numbers on a forum are not going to convince me that my own results were somehow flawed as I witnessed them myself. That being said: I am perfectly content to agree to disagree about this.

The only thing I would say further is to encourage other aspiring healers on here to try high critical builds out on their own before dismissing them. Because there are a lot of healers I know who stack crit and after testing it myself I understand why. It's good - even though I personally prefer other more defensive builds.

To be honest, for most content he is kind of right you know. There is such a thing as over healing and buffing and supporting your team in those ways is more important than using sets that just buffs your healing done, be it via magicka, spell power or other. It doesn't mean you are a bad healer per say, but I would say you are wasting your set bonuses.

Jeremy

paulsimonps wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@Jeremy that build is not very good, no support, no spc, no worm, no trans, no nothing but self buff, that is the standard definition of a bad healer.

it really is simple math. powered will give you higher average heals then precise. it is similar to the ritual mundas vs thief.

from an earlier post by me

To calculate the average heal you will get, you need to know your crit hit damage increase, that is the amount your heal will crit for.

For example, I am a temp, so I get 10% more CHD from the adrid spear passive and I have 24% into elfborn, so together that adds 34% to the base of 50% extra, so .84.

Then you take the amount of crit chance I have without the thief, 42% and the amount I have with the thief, 58% and then multiply then out like this

.84*.42= .35

.84*.58=.49

And then subtract them, so 49-35= 14, which is the same amount I get from the ritual, note that I do not have full divines nor are all my pieces fully golded out.

Also take into consideration that the above is likely best case scenario, you lose any one of the needed buffs to reach the CHD and the CHC I have stated, ie major prophecy or if you are not a temp or nightblade for the extra 10% CHD, the ritual will be the best way to increase your heals, full stop. Though there is a good argument for healers doing damage and the ritual does nothing for that.

To take this with powered VS precise, you do the same math, you take your Crit hit damage modifier, at base is .5, then multiply it by your crit chance, then you get your average healing increase.


At base, without the thief most healers will have 42% crit chance, in pve, so they will go to 51% with precise, so taking into consideration that the OP is a sorc and does not have the same 10% increase in CHD as a templar but you are a sorc, so you are even better off with powered then a templar would be, as your CHD would not be as high.

let's take a case with a sorc wearing worm and spc, staple healer sets that have no crit bonus and are expected in any serious content.

45% crit chance and a base .5 CHD, a .25 increase to CHD from champion points, so togther, .75

.45 * .75 = .34 < without precise

with precise, it would be

.54 * .75 = .41 < with precise

that leaves .41 - . 34 = .07, that is a gain of 7% average increase in heals, which is less the straight 9% from powered.

best case with a sorc would look like this with warhorn for .15 more CHD

.45 * .9 = .41 < without precise

and

.54 * .9 = .49 < with precise

so again .49- .41 = .08, so that is a gain of 8% in heals a best case for a sorc, still less overall healing then 9% powered.

now let's do yours @Jeremy

not using any set the supports your team, it is easy to get to 65% with just thief and julianos, that leaves 7% with precise to get to 72% on a non sorc, so your base is going to be 65% and i am going to use the current value, 7%, instead the the buffed values both precise and powered are receiving next patch.


Best case is that you are a templar, so you get an extra 10% CHD, so you get a base of .85 if you have the elf born node max, which you will if you are smart and want to get he most of you high crit chance.

that is

.65 * .85 = .55 < without precise

and

.72 * .85 = .61 <with precise

that is .61 - .55 = .06, you get 6% more average heals with precise, still less then the 7% from powered.


even if you use mother's sorrow, which gives 7% crit chance on the five piece, you get the following,

.72 * .85 = .61 < without precise

and

.79 * .85 = .67 < with precise

leaving you with .67 - .61= .06, a 6% increase in average heals, again less then the 7% from powered currently.





that is the long version of powered > precise when it comes to pure healing.



it is also important to note, that if you use any set that heals like twilight remedy, it gets no benefit from precise, since sets can not crit at all but can be increased by healing done percentage modifiers.

Long version indeed.

I'll confess I did not read all of this, so keep that in mind if you respond. Your suggestion that any healer not wearing worm, spc, or trans is a bad healer is of course ridiculous. So I'm not going to dignify that absurd generality with an argument.

Certainly there are better support builds out there. The build I posted was not designed to support. It was a build I threw together to achieve high critical chance so I could compare and see how it measured up against a build that utilized straight healing increases (Powered, Healer's Habit, Ritual Mundus etc.) And after my tests I concluded that high Critical chance builds achieved more effective healing.

Now you are welcome to disagree with me if you like. As I pointed out - there are likely other factors involved that may influence the results. But posting a lot of numbers on a forum are not going to convince me that my own results were somehow flawed as I witnessed them myself. That being said: I am perfectly content to agree to disagree about this.

The only thing I would say further is to encourage other aspiring healers on here to try high critical builds out on their own before dismissing them. Because there are a lot of healers I know who stack crit and after testing it myself I understand why. It's good - even though I personally prefer other more defensive builds.

To be honest, for most content he is kind of right you know. There is such a thing as over healing and buffing and supporting your team in those ways is more important than using sets that just buffs your healing done, be it via magicka, spell power or other. It doesn't mean you are a bad healer per say, but I would say you are wasting your set bonuses.

But that was beside my point. I was not talking about supporting or buffing - nor was I suggesting that such a build was superior. In fact - I pointed out that I did not even use that build on a regular basis and preferred other builds. So if that was his point - it really did not relate to my comments.

I was speaking only in terms of raw healing power - and in that respect I believe that high spell crit builds are superior to builds that rely on straight healing increases. The argument that there are more effective builds for content that does not require critical healing is a fair one - but it's not one I was disputing or even one that I wish to dispute.

Personally I prefer defensive builds as a healer and my critical chance is terrible (the 72% crit build is not my regular build). But for those healers who do stack spell critical I can certainly understand why they do it. It offers great healing and significant damage - which can be useful in many situations. You can certainly be a good healer with it.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Jeremy wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@Jeremy that build is not very good, no support, no spc, no worm, no trans, no nothing but self buff, that is the standard definition of a bad healer.

it really is simple math. powered will give you higher average heals then precise. it is similar to the ritual mundas vs thief.

from an earlier post by me

To calculate the average heal you will get, you need to know your crit hit damage increase, that is the amount your heal will crit for.

For example, I am a temp, so I get 10% more CHD from the adrid spear passive and I have 24% into elfborn, so together that adds 34% to the base of 50% extra, so .84.

Then you take the amount of crit chance I have without the thief, 42% and the amount I have with the thief, 58% and then multiply then out like this

.84*.42= .35

.84*.58=.49

And then subtract them, so 49-35= 14, which is the same amount I get from the ritual, note that I do not have full divines nor are all my pieces fully golded out.

Also take into consideration that the above is likely best case scenario, you lose any one of the needed buffs to reach the CHD and the CHC I have stated, ie major prophecy or if you are not a temp or nightblade for the extra 10% CHD, the ritual will be the best way to increase your heals, full stop. Though there is a good argument for healers doing damage and the ritual does nothing for that.

To take this with powered VS precise, you do the same math, you take your Crit hit damage modifier, at base is .5, then multiply it by your crit chance, then you get your average healing increase.


At base, without the thief most healers will have 42% crit chance, in pve, so they will go to 51% with precise, so taking into consideration that the OP is a sorc and does not have the same 10% increase in CHD as a templar but you are a sorc, so you are even better off with powered then a templar would be, as your CHD would not be as high.

let's take a case with a sorc wearing worm and spc, staple healer sets that have no crit bonus and are expected in any serious content.

45% crit chance and a base .5 CHD, a .25 increase to CHD from champion points, so togther, .75

.45 * .75 = .34 < without precise

with precise, it would be

.54 * .75 = .41 < with precise

that leaves .41 - . 34 = .07, that is a gain of 7% average increase in heals, which is less the straight 9% from powered.

best case with a sorc would look like this with warhorn for .15 more CHD

.45 * .9 = .41 < without precise

and

.54 * .9 = .49 < with precise

so again .49- .41 = .08, so that is a gain of 8% in heals a best case for a sorc, still less overall healing then 9% powered.

now let's do yours @Jeremy

not using any set the supports your team, it is easy to get to 65% with just thief and julianos, that leaves 7% with precise to get to 72% on a non sorc, so your base is going to be 65% and i am going to use the current value, 7%, instead the the buffed values both precise and powered are receiving next patch.


Best case is that you are a templar, so you get an extra 10% CHD, so you get a base of .85 if you have the elf born node max, which you will if you are smart and want to get he most of you high crit chance.

that is

.65 * .85 = .55 < without precise

and

.72 * .85 = .61 <with precise

that is .61 - .55 = .06, you get 6% more average heals with precise, still less then the 7% from powered.


even if you use mother's sorrow, which gives 7% crit chance on the five piece, you get the following,

.72 * .85 = .61 < without precise

and

.79 * .85 = .67 < with precise

leaving you with .67 - .61= .06, a 6% increase in average heals, again less then the 7% from powered currently.





that is the long version of powered > precise when it comes to pure healing.



it is also important to note, that if you use any set that heals like twilight remedy, it gets no benefit from precise, since sets can not crit at all but can be increased by healing done percentage modifiers.

Long version indeed.

I'll confess I did not read all of this, so keep that in mind if you respond. Your suggestion that any healer not wearing worm, spc, or trans is a bad healer is of course ridiculous. So I'm not going to dignify that absurd generality with an argument.

Certainly there are better support builds out there. The build I posted was not designed to support. It was a build I threw together to achieve high critical chance so I could compare and see how it measured up against a build that utilized straight healing increases (Powered, Healer's Habit, Ritual Mundus etc.) And after my tests I concluded that high critical chance builds achieved more effective healing.

Now you are welcome to disagree with me if you like. As I pointed out - there are likely other factors involved that may influence the results. But posting a lot of numbers on a forum are not going to convince me that my own tests were somehow flawed as I witnessed them myself. That being said: I am perfectly content to agree to disagree about this.

The only thing I would say further is to encourage other aspiring healers on here to try high critical builds out on their own before dismissing them. Because there are a lot of healers I know who stack crit and after testing it myself (most out of curiosity) I understand why. It's good - even though I personally prefer other more defensive builds.

Jeremy wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@Jeremy that build is not very good, no support, no spc, no worm, no trans, no nothing but self buff, that is the standard definition of a bad healer.

it really is simple math. powered will give you higher average heals then precise. it is similar to the ritual mundas vs thief.

from an earlier post by me

To calculate the average heal you will get, you need to know your crit hit damage increase, that is the amount your heal will crit for.

For example, I am a temp, so I get 10% more CHD from the adrid spear passive and I have 24% into elfborn, so together that adds 34% to the base of 50% extra, so .84.

Then you take the amount of crit chance I have without the thief, 42% and the amount I have with the thief, 58% and then multiply then out like this

.84*.42= .35

.84*.58=.49

And then subtract them, so 49-35= 14, which is the same amount I get from the ritual, note that I do not have full divines nor are all my pieces fully golded out.

Also take into consideration that the above is likely best case scenario, you lose any one of the needed buffs to reach the CHD and the CHC I have stated, ie major prophecy or if you are not a temp or nightblade for the extra 10% CHD, the ritual will be the best way to increase your heals, full stop. Though there is a good argument for healers doing damage and the ritual does nothing for that.

To take this with powered VS precise, you do the same math, you take your Crit hit damage modifier, at base is .5, then multiply it by your crit chance, then you get your average healing increase.


At base, without the thief most healers will have 42% crit chance, in pve, so they will go to 51% with precise, so taking into consideration that the OP is a sorc and does not have the same 10% increase in CHD as a templar but you are a sorc, so you are even better off with powered then a templar would be, as your CHD would not be as high.

let's take a case with a sorc wearing worm and spc, staple healer sets that have no crit bonus and are expected in any serious content.

45% crit chance and a base .5 CHD, a .25 increase to CHD from champion points, so togther, .75

.45 * .75 = .34 < without precise

with precise, it would be

.54 * .75 = .41 < with precise

that leaves .41 - . 34 = .07, that is a gain of 7% average increase in heals, which is less the straight 9% from powered.

best case with a sorc would look like this with warhorn for .15 more CHD

.45 * .9 = .41 < without precise

and

.54 * .9 = .49 < with precise

so again .49- .41 = .08, so that is a gain of 8% in heals a best case for a sorc, still less overall healing then 9% powered.

now let's do yours @Jeremy

not using any set the supports your team, it is easy to get to 65% with just thief and julianos, that leaves 7% with precise to get to 72% on a non sorc, so your base is going to be 65% and i am going to use the current value, 7%, instead the the buffed values both precise and powered are receiving next patch.


Best case is that you are a templar, so you get an extra 10% CHD, so you get a base of .85 if you have the elf born node max, which you will if you are smart and want to get he most of you high crit chance.

that is

.65 * .85 = .55 < without precise

and

.72 * .85 = .61 <with precise

that is .61 - .55 = .06, you get 6% more average heals with precise, still less then the 7% from powered.


even if you use mother's sorrow, which gives 7% crit chance on the five piece, you get the following,

.72 * .85 = .61 < without precise

and

.79 * .85 = .67 < with precise

leaving you with .67 - .61= .06, a 6% increase in average heals, again less then the 7% from powered currently.





that is the long version of powered > precise when it comes to pure healing.



it is also important to note, that if you use any set that heals like twilight remedy, it gets no benefit from precise, since sets can not crit at all but can be increased by healing done percentage modifiers.

Long version indeed.

I'll confess I did not read all of this, so keep that in mind if you respond. Your suggestion that any healer not wearing worm, spc, or trans is a bad healer is of course ridiculous. So I'm not going to dignify that absurd generality with an argument.

Certainly there are better support builds out there. The build I posted was not designed to support. It was a build I threw together to achieve high critical chance so I could compare and see how it measured up against a build that utilized straight healing increases (Powered, Healer's Habit, Ritual Mundus etc.) And after my tests I concluded that high Critical chance builds achieved more effective healing.

Now you are welcome to disagree with me if you like. As I pointed out - there are likely other factors involved that may influence the results. But posting a lot of numbers on a forum are not going to convince me that my own results were somehow flawed as I witnessed them myself. That being said: I am perfectly content to agree to disagree about this.

The only thing I would say further is to encourage other aspiring healers on here to try high critical builds out on their own before dismissing them. Because there are a lot of healers I know who stack crit and after testing it myself I understand why. It's good - even though I personally prefer other more defensive builds.

To be honest, for most content he is kind of right you know. There is such a thing as over healing and buffing and supporting your team in those ways is more important than using sets that just buffs your healing done, be it via magicka, spell power or other. It doesn't mean you are a bad healer per say, but I would say you are wasting your set bonuses.

But that was beside my point. I was not talking about supporting or buffing - nor was I suggesting that such a build was superior. In fact - I pointed out that I did not even use that build on a regular basis and preferred other builds. So if that was his point - it really did not relate to my comments.

I was speaking only in terms of raw healing power - and in that respect I believe high critical builds are superior to builds that rely on straight healing increases. The argument that there are more effective builds for content that does not require critical healing is a fair one - but it's not one I was disputing or even one that I wish to dispute.

I personally prefer defensive builds as a healer and my critical chance is terrible. But for those healers who do stack critical chance I can certainly understand why they do it. It offers great healing and significant damage - which can be useful in many situations.

First, cute smiley face there, buddy.

second, LOL at bold, you saying you won't give a response IS a response.



i was not giving evidence about about ALL crit or ALL healing done, i simply showed that in this case, IE powered vs precise, that powered is the one that will give you more average healing, that is higher healing over a long enough timeline and even then it was around a 1% difference in the very best case, with powered still being favored "in terms of raw healing power" .


you have given no evidence, i am not one to take people on their "Feelings". i have math on my side. powered is the way to go. you need to show this besides saying you have " found something that hits hard" and "seen which keeps your HP up better" and "that's what I did".

what do you mean "defensive builds as a healer", there is only a support healer or nonsupport healer and that is almost completely by the sets they wear, sets that give other player bonuses or debuff the enemy or a healer that don't.

healers by definition are not suppose to be selfish, that is the dpses job.

Olen_Mikko

Imo powered definitely. If your critical % is under 50 % even with precise, 7 % healing done would be better choice.

Jeremy

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@Jeremy that build is not very good, no support, no spc, no worm, no trans, no nothing but self buff, that is the standard definition of a bad healer.

it really is simple math. powered will give you higher average heals then precise. it is similar to the ritual mundas vs thief.

from an earlier post by me

To calculate the average heal you will get, you need to know your crit hit damage increase, that is the amount your heal will crit for.

For example, I am a temp, so I get 10% more CHD from the adrid spear passive and I have 24% into elfborn, so together that adds 34% to the base of 50% extra, so .84.

Then you take the amount of crit chance I have without the thief, 42% and the amount I have with the thief, 58% and then multiply then out like this

.84*.42= .35

.84*.58=.49

And then subtract them, so 49-35= 14, which is the same amount I get from the ritual, note that I do not have full divines nor are all my pieces fully golded out.

Also take into consideration that the above is likely best case scenario, you lose any one of the needed buffs to reach the CHD and the CHC I have stated, ie major prophecy or if you are not a temp or nightblade for the extra 10% CHD, the ritual will be the best way to increase your heals, full stop. Though there is a good argument for healers doing damage and the ritual does nothing for that.

To take this with powered VS precise, you do the same math, you take your Crit hit damage modifier, at base is .5, then multiply it by your crit chance, then you get your average healing increase.


At base, without the thief most healers will have 42% crit chance, in pve, so they will go to 51% with precise, so taking into consideration that the OP is a sorc and does not have the same 10% increase in CHD as a templar but you are a sorc, so you are even better off with powered then a templar would be, as your CHD would not be as high.

let's take a case with a sorc wearing worm and spc, staple healer sets that have no crit bonus and are expected in any serious content.

45% crit chance and a base .5 CHD, a .25 increase to CHD from champion points, so togther, .75

.45 * .75 = .34 < without precise

with precise, it would be

.54 * .75 = .41 < with precise

that leaves .41 - . 34 = .07, that is a gain of 7% average increase in heals, which is less the straight 9% from powered.

best case with a sorc would look like this with warhorn for .15 more CHD

.45 * .9 = .41 < without precise

and

.54 * .9 = .49 < with precise

so again .49- .41 = .08, so that is a gain of 8% in heals a best case for a sorc, still less overall healing then 9% powered.

now let's do yours @Jeremy

not using any set the supports your team, it is easy to get to 65% with just thief and julianos, that leaves 7% with precise to get to 72% on a non sorc, so your base is going to be 65% and i am going to use the current value, 7%, instead the the buffed values both precise and powered are receiving next patch.


Best case is that you are a templar, so you get an extra 10% CHD, so you get a base of .85 if you have the elf born node max, which you will if you are smart and want to get he most of you high crit chance.

that is

.65 * .85 = .55 < without precise

and

.72 * .85 = .61 <with precise

that is .61 - .55 = .06, you get 6% more average heals with precise, still less then the 7% from powered.


even if you use mother's sorrow, which gives 7% crit chance on the five piece, you get the following,

.72 * .85 = .61 < without precise

and

.79 * .85 = .67 < with precise

leaving you with .67 - .61= .06, a 6% increase in average heals, again less then the 7% from powered currently.





that is the long version of powered > precise when it comes to pure healing.



it is also important to note, that if you use any set that heals like twilight remedy, it gets no benefit from precise, since sets can not crit at all but can be increased by healing done percentage modifiers.

Long version indeed.

I'll confess I did not read all of this, so keep that in mind if you respond. Your suggestion that any healer not wearing worm, spc, or trans is a bad healer is of course ridiculous. So I'm not going to dignify that absurd generality with an argument.

Certainly there are better support builds out there. The build I posted was not designed to support. It was a build I threw together to achieve high critical chance so I could compare and see how it measured up against a build that utilized straight healing increases (Powered, Healer's Habit, Ritual Mundus etc.) And after my tests I concluded that high critical chance builds achieved more effective healing.

Now you are welcome to disagree with me if you like. As I pointed out - there are likely other factors involved that may influence the results. But posting a lot of numbers on a forum are not going to convince me that my own tests were somehow flawed as I witnessed them myself. That being said: I am perfectly content to agree to disagree about this.

The only thing I would say further is to encourage other aspiring healers on here to try high critical builds out on their own before dismissing them. Because there are a lot of healers I know who stack crit and after testing it myself (most out of curiosity) I understand why. It's good - even though I personally prefer other more defensive builds.

Jeremy wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@Jeremy that build is not very good, no support, no spc, no worm, no trans, no nothing but self buff, that is the standard definition of a bad healer.

it really is simple math. powered will give you higher average heals then precise. it is similar to the ritual mundas vs thief.

from an earlier post by me

To calculate the average heal you will get, you need to know your crit hit damage increase, that is the amount your heal will crit for.

For example, I am a temp, so I get 10% more CHD from the adrid spear passive and I have 24% into elfborn, so together that adds 34% to the base of 50% extra, so .84.

Then you take the amount of crit chance I have without the thief, 42% and the amount I have with the thief, 58% and then multiply then out like this

.84*.42= .35

.84*.58=.49

And then subtract them, so 49-35= 14, which is the same amount I get from the ritual, note that I do not have full divines nor are all my pieces fully golded out.

Also take into consideration that the above is likely best case scenario, you lose any one of the needed buffs to reach the CHD and the CHC I have stated, ie major prophecy or if you are not a temp or nightblade for the extra 10% CHD, the ritual will be the best way to increase your heals, full stop. Though there is a good argument for healers doing damage and the ritual does nothing for that.

To take this with powered VS precise, you do the same math, you take your Crit hit damage modifier, at base is .5, then multiply it by your crit chance, then you get your average healing increase.


At base, without the thief most healers will have 42% crit chance, in pve, so they will go to 51% with precise, so taking into consideration that the OP is a sorc and does not have the same 10% increase in CHD as a templar but you are a sorc, so you are even better off with powered then a templar would be, as your CHD would not be as high.

let's take a case with a sorc wearing worm and spc, staple healer sets that have no crit bonus and are expected in any serious content.

45% crit chance and a base .5 CHD, a .25 increase to CHD from champion points, so togther, .75

.45 * .75 = .34 < without precise

with precise, it would be

.54 * .75 = .41 < with precise

that leaves .41 - . 34 = .07, that is a gain of 7% average increase in heals, which is less the straight 9% from powered.

best case with a sorc would look like this with warhorn for .15 more CHD

.45 * .9 = .41 < without precise

and

.54 * .9 = .49 < with precise

so again .49- .41 = .08, so that is a gain of 8% in heals a best case for a sorc, still less overall healing then 9% powered.

now let's do yours @Jeremy

not using any set the supports your team, it is easy to get to 65% with just thief and julianos, that leaves 7% with precise to get to 72% on a non sorc, so your base is going to be 65% and i am going to use the current value, 7%, instead the the buffed values both precise and powered are receiving next patch.


Best case is that you are a templar, so you get an extra 10% CHD, so you get a base of .85 if you have the elf born node max, which you will if you are smart and want to get he most of you high crit chance.

that is

.65 * .85 = .55 < without precise

and

.72 * .85 = .61 <with precise

that is .61 - .55 = .06, you get 6% more average heals with precise, still less then the 7% from powered.


even if you use mother's sorrow, which gives 7% crit chance on the five piece, you get the following,

.72 * .85 = .61 < without precise

and

.79 * .85 = .67 < with precise

leaving you with .67 - .61= .06, a 6% increase in average heals, again less then the 7% from powered currently.





that is the long version of powered > precise when it comes to pure healing.



it is also important to note, that if you use any set that heals like twilight remedy, it gets no benefit from precise, since sets can not crit at all but can be increased by healing done percentage modifiers.

Long version indeed.

I'll confess I did not read all of this, so keep that in mind if you respond. Your suggestion that any healer not wearing worm, spc, or trans is a bad healer is of course ridiculous. So I'm not going to dignify that absurd generality with an argument.

Certainly there are better support builds out there. The build I posted was not designed to support. It was a build I threw together to achieve high critical chance so I could compare and see how it measured up against a build that utilized straight healing increases (Powered, Healer's Habit, Ritual Mundus etc.) And after my tests I concluded that high Critical chance builds achieved more effective healing.

Now you are welcome to disagree with me if you like. As I pointed out - there are likely other factors involved that may influence the results. But posting a lot of numbers on a forum are not going to convince me that my own results were somehow flawed as I witnessed them myself. That being said: I am perfectly content to agree to disagree about this.

The only thing I would say further is to encourage other aspiring healers on here to try high critical builds out on their own before dismissing them. Because there are a lot of healers I know who stack crit and after testing it myself I understand why. It's good - even though I personally prefer other more defensive builds.

To be honest, for most content he is kind of right you know. There is such a thing as over healing and buffing and supporting your team in those ways is more important than using sets that just buffs your healing done, be it via magicka, spell power or other. It doesn't mean you are a bad healer per say, but I would say you are wasting your set bonuses.

But that was beside my point. I was not talking about supporting or buffing - nor was I suggesting that such a build was superior. In fact - I pointed out that I did not even use that build on a regular basis and preferred other builds. So if that was his point - it really did not relate to my comments.

I was speaking only in terms of raw healing power - and in that respect I believe high critical builds are superior to builds that rely on straight healing increases. The argument that there are more effective builds for content that does not require critical healing is a fair one - but it's not one I was disputing or even one that I wish to dispute.

I personally prefer defensive builds as a healer and my critical chance is terrible. But for those healers who do stack critical chance I can certainly understand why they do it. It offers great healing and significant damage - which can be useful in many situations.

FIrst LOL at bold, you saying you won't give a response IS a response.



i was not giving evidence about about ALL crit or ALL healing done, i simply showed that in this case, IE powered vs precise, that powered is the one that will give you more average healing, that is higher healing over a long enough timeline and even then it was around a 1% difference in the very best case, with powered still being favored "in terms of raw healing power" .


you have given no evidence, i am not one to take people on their "Feelings". i have math on my side. powered is the way to go. you need to show this besides saying you have " found something that hits hard" and "seen which keeps your HP up better" and "that's what I did".

what do you mean "defensive builds as a healer", there is only a support healer or nonsupport healer and that is almost completely by the sets they wear, sets that give other player bonuses or debuff the enemy or a healer that don't.

healers by definition are not suppose to be selfish, that is the dpses job.

I said I was not going to dignify it with an argument - not a response.

Your views are too rigid for me . Your ideas about what constitutes a bad or selfish healer are too narrow for the two of us to find any common ground about that. So it would be a waste of time and energy for us to bother debating it.

And yes - you offered evidence as to your case. But your case may be different the case of others. It was certainly different as to my case.

In my experience builds that utilize high spell critical out-heal builds that rely on straight healing increases. That was the point I was trying to make. As far as evidence - I'm not that here to try and prove anything to you... or to anyone else for that matter. I simply shared my view about it (which are based on my own testing and not feelings btw) and then encouraged others to try it out for themselves.

And yes - I prefer my healer to be defensive. I'm sorry if you think that makes me selfish. Well, actually in all honesty I'm not. But you are entitled to your opinion.

Tasear

Jeremy wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@Jeremy that build is not very good, no support, no spc, no worm, no trans, no nothing but self buff, that is the standard definition of a bad healer.

it really is simple math. powered will give you higher average heals then precise. it is similar to the ritual mundas vs thief.

from an earlier post by me

To calculate the average heal you will get, you need to know your crit hit damage increase, that is the amount your heal will crit for.

For example, I am a temp, so I get 10% more CHD from the adrid spear passive and I have 24% into elfborn, so together that adds 34% to the base of 50% extra, so .84.

Then you take the amount of crit chance I have without the thief, 42% and the amount I have with the thief, 58% and then multiply then out like this

.84*.42= .35

.84*.58=.49

And then subtract them, so 49-35= 14, which is the same amount I get from the ritual, note that I do not have full divines nor are all my pieces fully golded out.

Also take into consideration that the above is likely best case scenario, you lose any one of the needed buffs to reach the CHD and the CHC I have stated, ie major prophecy or if you are not a temp or nightblade for the extra 10% CHD, the ritual will be the best way to increase your heals, full stop. Though there is a good argument for healers doing damage and the ritual does nothing for that.

To take this with powered VS precise, you do the same math, you take your Crit hit damage modifier, at base is .5, then multiply it by your crit chance, then you get your average healing increase.


At base, without the thief most healers will have 42% crit chance, in pve, so they will go to 51% with precise, so taking into consideration that the OP is a sorc and does not have the same 10% increase in CHD as a templar but you are a sorc, so you are even better off with powered then a templar would be, as your CHD would not be as high.

let's take a case with a sorc wearing worm and spc, staple healer sets that have no crit bonus and are expected in any serious content.

45% crit chance and a base .5 CHD, a .25 increase to CHD from champion points, so togther, .75

.45 * .75 = .34 < without precise

with precise, it would be

.54 * .75 = .41 < with precise

that leaves .41 - . 34 = .07, that is a gain of 7% average increase in heals, which is less the straight 9% from powered.

best case with a sorc would look like this with warhorn for .15 more CHD

.45 * .9 = .41 < without precise

and

.54 * .9 = .49 < with precise

so again .49- .41 = .08, so that is a gain of 8% in heals a best case for a sorc, still less overall healing then 9% powered.

now let's do yours @Jeremy

not using any set the supports your team, it is easy to get to 65% with just thief and julianos, that leaves 7% with precise to get to 72% on a non sorc, so your base is going to be 65% and i am going to use the current value, 7%, instead the the buffed values both precise and powered are receiving next patch.


Best case is that you are a templar, so you get an extra 10% CHD, so you get a base of .85 if you have the elf born node max, which you will if you are smart and want to get he most of you high crit chance.

that is

.65 * .85 = .55 < without precise

and

.72 * .85 = .61 <with precise

that is .61 - .55 = .06, you get 6% more average heals with precise, still less then the 7% from powered.


even if you use mother's sorrow, which gives 7% crit chance on the five piece, you get the following,

.72 * .85 = .61 < without precise

and

.79 * .85 = .67 < with precise

leaving you with .67 - .61= .06, a 6% increase in average heals, again less then the 7% from powered currently.





that is the long version of powered > precise when it comes to pure healing.



it is also important to note, that if you use any set that heals like twilight remedy, it gets no benefit from precise, since sets can not crit at all but can be increased by healing done percentage modifiers.

Long version indeed.

I'll confess I did not read all of this, so keep that in mind if you respond. Your suggestion that any healer not wearing worm, spc, or trans is a bad healer is of course ridiculous. So I'm not going to dignify that absurd generality with an argument.

Certainly there are better support builds out there. The build I posted was not designed to support. It was a build I threw together to achieve high critical chance so I could compare and see how it measured up against a build that utilized straight healing increases (Powered, Healer's Habit, Ritual Mundus etc.) And after my tests I concluded that high critical chance builds achieved more effective healing.

Now you are welcome to disagree with me if you like. As I pointed out - there are likely other factors involved that may influence the results. But posting a lot of numbers on a forum are not going to convince me that my own tests were somehow flawed as I witnessed them myself. That being said: I am perfectly content to agree to disagree about this.

The only thing I would say further is to encourage other aspiring healers on here to try high critical builds out on their own before dismissing them. Because there are a lot of healers I know who stack crit and after testing it myself (most out of curiosity) I understand why. It's good - even though I personally prefer other more defensive builds.

Jeremy wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@Jeremy that build is not very good, no support, no spc, no worm, no trans, no nothing but self buff, that is the standard definition of a bad healer.

it really is simple math. powered will give you higher average heals then precise. it is similar to the ritual mundas vs thief.

from an earlier post by me

To calculate the average heal you will get, you need to know your crit hit damage increase, that is the amount your heal will crit for.

For example, I am a temp, so I get 10% more CHD from the adrid spear passive and I have 24% into elfborn, so together that adds 34% to the base of 50% extra, so .84.

Then you take the amount of crit chance I have without the thief, 42% and the amount I have with the thief, 58% and then multiply then out like this

.84*.42= .35

.84*.58=.49

And then subtract them, so 49-35= 14, which is the same amount I get from the ritual, note that I do not have full divines nor are all my pieces fully golded out.

Also take into consideration that the above is likely best case scenario, you lose any one of the needed buffs to reach the CHD and the CHC I have stated, ie major prophecy or if you are not a temp or nightblade for the extra 10% CHD, the ritual will be the best way to increase your heals, full stop. Though there is a good argument for healers doing damage and the ritual does nothing for that.

To take this with powered VS precise, you do the same math, you take your Crit hit damage modifier, at base is .5, then multiply it by your crit chance, then you get your average healing increase.


At base, without the thief most healers will have 42% crit chance, in pve, so they will go to 51% with precise, so taking into consideration that the OP is a sorc and does not have the same 10% increase in CHD as a templar but you are a sorc, so you are even better off with powered then a templar would be, as your CHD would not be as high.

let's take a case with a sorc wearing worm and spc, staple healer sets that have no crit bonus and are expected in any serious content.

45% crit chance and a base .5 CHD, a .25 increase to CHD from champion points, so togther, .75

.45 * .75 = .34 < without precise

with precise, it would be

.54 * .75 = .41 < with precise

that leaves .41 - . 34 = .07, that is a gain of 7% average increase in heals, which is less the straight 9% from powered.

best case with a sorc would look like this with warhorn for .15 more CHD

.45 * .9 = .41 < without precise

and

.54 * .9 = .49 < with precise

so again .49- .41 = .08, so that is a gain of 8% in heals a best case for a sorc, still less overall healing then 9% powered.

now let's do yours @Jeremy

not using any set the supports your team, it is easy to get to 65% with just thief and julianos, that leaves 7% with precise to get to 72% on a non sorc, so your base is going to be 65% and i am going to use the current value, 7%, instead the the buffed values both precise and powered are receiving next patch.


Best case is that you are a templar, so you get an extra 10% CHD, so you get a base of .85 if you have the elf born node max, which you will if you are smart and want to get he most of you high crit chance.

that is

.65 * .85 = .55 < without precise

and

.72 * .85 = .61 <with precise

that is .61 - .55 = .06, you get 6% more average heals with precise, still less then the 7% from powered.


even if you use mother's sorrow, which gives 7% crit chance on the five piece, you get the following,

.72 * .85 = .61 < without precise

and

.79 * .85 = .67 < with precise

leaving you with .67 - .61= .06, a 6% increase in average heals, again less then the 7% from powered currently.





that is the long version of powered > precise when it comes to pure healing.



it is also important to note, that if you use any set that heals like twilight remedy, it gets no benefit from precise, since sets can not crit at all but can be increased by healing done percentage modifiers.

Long version indeed.

I'll confess I did not read all of this, so keep that in mind if you respond. Your suggestion that any healer not wearing worm, spc, or trans is a bad healer is of course ridiculous. So I'm not going to dignify that absurd generality with an argument.

Certainly there are better support builds out there. The build I posted was not designed to support. It was a build I threw together to achieve high critical chance so I could compare and see how it measured up against a build that utilized straight healing increases (Powered, Healer's Habit, Ritual Mundus etc.) And after my tests I concluded that high Critical chance builds achieved more effective healing.

Now you are welcome to disagree with me if you like. As I pointed out - there are likely other factors involved that may influence the results. But posting a lot of numbers on a forum are not going to convince me that my own results were somehow flawed as I witnessed them myself. That being said: I am perfectly content to agree to disagree about this.

The only thing I would say further is to encourage other aspiring healers on here to try high critical builds out on their own before dismissing them. Because there are a lot of healers I know who stack crit and after testing it myself I understand why. It's good - even though I personally prefer other more defensive builds.

To be honest, for most content he is kind of right you know. There is such a thing as over healing and buffing and supporting your team in those ways is more important than using sets that just buffs your healing done, be it via magicka, spell power or other. It doesn't mean you are a bad healer per say, but I would say you are wasting your set bonuses.

But that was beside my point. I was not talking about supporting or buffing - nor was I suggesting that such a build was superior. In fact - I pointed out that I did not even use that build on a regular basis and preferred other builds. So if that was his point - it really did not relate to my comments.

I was speaking only in terms of raw healing power - and in that respect I believe high critical builds are superior to builds that rely on straight healing increases. The argument that there are more effective builds for content that does not require critical healing is a fair one - but it's not one I was disputing or even one that I wish to dispute.

I personally prefer defensive builds as a healer and my critical chance is terrible. But for those healers who do stack critical chance I can certainly understand why they do it. It offers great healing and significant damage - which can be useful in many situations.

FIrst LOL at bold, you saying you won't give a response IS a response.



i was not giving evidence about about ALL crit or ALL healing done, i simply showed that in this case, IE powered vs precise, that powered is the one that will give you more average healing, that is higher healing over a long enough timeline and even then it was around a 1% difference in the very best case, with powered still being favored "in terms of raw healing power" .


you have given no evidence, i am not one to take people on their "Feelings". i have math on my side. powered is the way to go. you need to show this besides saying you have " found something that hits hard" and "seen which keeps your HP up better" and "that's what I did".

what do you mean "defensive builds as a healer", there is only a support healer or nonsupport healer and that is almost completely by the sets they wear, sets that give other player bonuses or debuff the enemy or a healer that don't.

healers by definition are not suppose to be selfish, that is the dpses job.

I said I was not going to dignify it with an argument - not a response.

Your views are too rigid for me . Your ideas about what constitutes a bad or selfish healer are too narrow for the two of us to find any common ground about that. So it would be a waste of time and energy for us to bother debating it.

And yes - you offered evidence as to your case. But your case may be different the case of others. It was certainly different as to my case.

In my experience builds that utilize high spell critical out-heal builds that rely on straight healing increases. That was the point I was trying to make. As far as evidence - I'm not that here to try and prove anything to you or to anyone else for that matter. I simply shared my view about it (which are based on my own experiences and not feelings btw) and then encouraged others to try it out for themselves.

And yes - I prefer my healer to be defensive. I'm sorry if you think that makes me selfish. Well, actually in all honesty I'm not. But you are entitled to your opinion.

Wooh this derailed a bit.. it would of been better if you had actually read all of this. Through some expert who could point out the equations it was determined if your critical is no more than standard on "average" you will give some heals over time. Now say you are require less heals over time .. ex in battlegrounds than the average would have less usefulness compared to something like a trial. Now if you wish to add more dps or do more damage while healing then precise is the balance between the two to put on resto staff. To think otherwise is simply misguided belief in a falsehood. Look above the equations are solid, the scenarios have been explored. Mind you are free to play as you want... but if not open to explanations and reasons you do so at a cost.

Edit

For most part we talk about using support sets ... well at least 1 on the healer to reach these conclusions.

Jeremy

Tasear wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@Jeremy that build is not very good, no support, no spc, no worm, no trans, no nothing but self buff, that is the standard definition of a bad healer.

it really is simple math. powered will give you higher average heals then precise. it is similar to the ritual mundas vs thief.

from an earlier post by me

To calculate the average heal you will get, you need to know your crit hit damage increase, that is the amount your heal will crit for.

For example, I am a temp, so I get 10% more CHD from the adrid spear passive and I have 24% into elfborn, so together that adds 34% to the base of 50% extra, so .84.

Then you take the amount of crit chance I have without the thief, 42% and the amount I have with the thief, 58% and then multiply then out like this

.84*.42= .35

.84*.58=.49

And then subtract them, so 49-35= 14, which is the same amount I get from the ritual, note that I do not have full divines nor are all my pieces fully golded out.

Also take into consideration that the above is likely best case scenario, you lose any one of the needed buffs to reach the CHD and the CHC I have stated, ie major prophecy or if you are not a temp or nightblade for the extra 10% CHD, the ritual will be the best way to increase your heals, full stop. Though there is a good argument for healers doing damage and the ritual does nothing for that.

To take this with powered VS precise, you do the same math, you take your Crit hit damage modifier, at base is .5, then multiply it by your crit chance, then you get your average healing increase.


At base, without the thief most healers will have 42% crit chance, in pve, so they will go to 51% with precise, so taking into consideration that the OP is a sorc and does not have the same 10% increase in CHD as a templar but you are a sorc, so you are even better off with powered then a templar would be, as your CHD would not be as high.

let's take a case with a sorc wearing worm and spc, staple healer sets that have no crit bonus and are expected in any serious content.

45% crit chance and a base .5 CHD, a .25 increase to CHD from champion points, so togther, .75

.45 * .75 = .34 < without precise

with precise, it would be

.54 * .75 = .41 < with precise

that leaves .41 - . 34 = .07, that is a gain of 7% average increase in heals, which is less the straight 9% from powered.

best case with a sorc would look like this with warhorn for .15 more CHD

.45 * .9 = .41 < without precise

and

.54 * .9 = .49 < with precise

so again .49- .41 = .08, so that is a gain of 8% in heals a best case for a sorc, still less overall healing then 9% powered.

now let's do yours @Jeremy

not using any set the supports your team, it is easy to get to 65% with just thief and julianos, that leaves 7% with precise to get to 72% on a non sorc, so your base is going to be 65% and i am going to use the current value, 7%, instead the the buffed values both precise and powered are receiving next patch.


Best case is that you are a templar, so you get an extra 10% CHD, so you get a base of .85 if you have the elf born node max, which you will if you are smart and want to get he most of you high crit chance.

that is

.65 * .85 = .55 < without precise

and

.72 * .85 = .61 <with precise

that is .61 - .55 = .06, you get 6% more average heals with precise, still less then the 7% from powered.


even if you use mother's sorrow, which gives 7% crit chance on the five piece, you get the following,

.72 * .85 = .61 < without precise

and

.79 * .85 = .67 < with precise

leaving you with .67 - .61= .06, a 6% increase in average heals, again less then the 7% from powered currently.





that is the long version of powered > precise when it comes to pure healing.



it is also important to note, that if you use any set that heals like twilight remedy, it gets no benefit from precise, since sets can not crit at all but can be increased by healing done percentage modifiers.

Long version indeed.

I'll confess I did not read all of this, so keep that in mind if you respond. Your suggestion that any healer not wearing worm, spc, or trans is a bad healer is of course ridiculous. So I'm not going to dignify that absurd generality with an argument.

Certainly there are better support builds out there. The build I posted was not designed to support. It was a build I threw together to achieve high critical chance so I could compare and see how it measured up against a build that utilized straight healing increases (Powered, Healer's Habit, Ritual Mundus etc.) And after my tests I concluded that high critical chance builds achieved more effective healing.

Now you are welcome to disagree with me if you like. As I pointed out - there are likely other factors involved that may influence the results. But posting a lot of numbers on a forum are not going to convince me that my own tests were somehow flawed as I witnessed them myself. That being said: I am perfectly content to agree to disagree about this.

The only thing I would say further is to encourage other aspiring healers on here to try high critical builds out on their own before dismissing them. Because there are a lot of healers I know who stack crit and after testing it myself (most out of curiosity) I understand why. It's good - even though I personally prefer other more defensive builds.

Jeremy wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@Jeremy that build is not very good, no support, no spc, no worm, no trans, no nothing but self buff, that is the standard definition of a bad healer.

it really is simple math. powered will give you higher average heals then precise. it is similar to the ritual mundas vs thief.

from an earlier post by me

To calculate the average heal you will get, you need to know your crit hit damage increase, that is the amount your heal will crit for.

For example, I am a temp, so I get 10% more CHD from the adrid spear passive and I have 24% into elfborn, so together that adds 34% to the base of 50% extra, so .84.

Then you take the amount of crit chance I have without the thief, 42% and the amount I have with the thief, 58% and then multiply then out like this

.84*.42= .35

.84*.58=.49

And then subtract them, so 49-35= 14, which is the same amount I get from the ritual, note that I do not have full divines nor are all my pieces fully golded out.

Also take into consideration that the above is likely best case scenario, you lose any one of the needed buffs to reach the CHD and the CHC I have stated, ie major prophecy or if you are not a temp or nightblade for the extra 10% CHD, the ritual will be the best way to increase your heals, full stop. Though there is a good argument for healers doing damage and the ritual does nothing for that.

To take this with powered VS precise, you do the same math, you take your Crit hit damage modifier, at base is .5, then multiply it by your crit chance, then you get your average healing increase.


At base, without the thief most healers will have 42% crit chance, in pve, so they will go to 51% with precise, so taking into consideration that the OP is a sorc and does not have the same 10% increase in CHD as a templar but you are a sorc, so you are even better off with powered then a templar would be, as your CHD would not be as high.

let's take a case with a sorc wearing worm and spc, staple healer sets that have no crit bonus and are expected in any serious content.

45% crit chance and a base .5 CHD, a .25 increase to CHD from champion points, so togther, .75

.45 * .75 = .34 < without precise

with precise, it would be

.54 * .75 = .41 < with precise

that leaves .41 - . 34 = .07, that is a gain of 7% average increase in heals, which is less the straight 9% from powered.

best case with a sorc would look like this with warhorn for .15 more CHD

.45 * .9 = .41 < without precise

and

.54 * .9 = .49 < with precise

so again .49- .41 = .08, so that is a gain of 8% in heals a best case for a sorc, still less overall healing then 9% powered.

now let's do yours @Jeremy

not using any set the supports your team, it is easy to get to 65% with just thief and julianos, that leaves 7% with precise to get to 72% on a non sorc, so your base is going to be 65% and i am going to use the current value, 7%, instead the the buffed values both precise and powered are receiving next patch.


Best case is that you are a templar, so you get an extra 10% CHD, so you get a base of .85 if you have the elf born node max, which you will if you are smart and want to get he most of you high crit chance.

that is

.65 * .85 = .55 < without precise

and

.72 * .85 = .61 <with precise

that is .61 - .55 = .06, you get 6% more average heals with precise, still less then the 7% from powered.


even if you use mother's sorrow, which gives 7% crit chance on the five piece, you get the following,

.72 * .85 = .61 < without precise

and

.79 * .85 = .67 < with precise

leaving you with .67 - .61= .06, a 6% increase in average heals, again less then the 7% from powered currently.





that is the long version of powered > precise when it comes to pure healing.



it is also important to note, that if you use any set that heals like twilight remedy, it gets no benefit from precise, since sets can not crit at all but can be increased by healing done percentage modifiers.

Long version indeed.

I'll confess I did not read all of this, so keep that in mind if you respond. Your suggestion that any healer not wearing worm, spc, or trans is a bad healer is of course ridiculous. So I'm not going to dignify that absurd generality with an argument.

Certainly there are better support builds out there. The build I posted was not designed to support. It was a build I threw together to achieve high critical chance so I could compare and see how it measured up against a build that utilized straight healing increases (Powered, Healer's Habit, Ritual Mundus etc.) And after my tests I concluded that high Critical chance builds achieved more effective healing.

Now you are welcome to disagree with me if you like. As I pointed out - there are likely other factors involved that may influence the results. But posting a lot of numbers on a forum are not going to convince me that my own results were somehow flawed as I witnessed them myself. That being said: I am perfectly content to agree to disagree about this.

The only thing I would say further is to encourage other aspiring healers on here to try high critical builds out on their own before dismissing them. Because there are a lot of healers I know who stack crit and after testing it myself I understand why. It's good - even though I personally prefer other more defensive builds.

To be honest, for most content he is kind of right you know. There is such a thing as over healing and buffing and supporting your team in those ways is more important than using sets that just buffs your healing done, be it via magicka, spell power or other. It doesn't mean you are a bad healer per say, but I would say you are wasting your set bonuses.

But that was beside my point. I was not talking about supporting or buffing - nor was I suggesting that such a build was superior. In fact - I pointed out that I did not even use that build on a regular basis and preferred other builds. So if that was his point - it really did not relate to my comments.

I was speaking only in terms of raw healing power - and in that respect I believe high critical builds are superior to builds that rely on straight healing increases. The argument that there are more effective builds for content that does not require critical healing is a fair one - but it's not one I was disputing or even one that I wish to dispute.

I personally prefer defensive builds as a healer and my critical chance is terrible. But for those healers who do stack critical chance I can certainly understand why they do it. It offers great healing and significant damage - which can be useful in many situations.

FIrst LOL at bold, you saying you won't give a response IS a response.



i was not giving evidence about about ALL crit or ALL healing done, i simply showed that in this case, IE powered vs precise, that powered is the one that will give you more average healing, that is higher healing over a long enough timeline and even then it was around a 1% difference in the very best case, with powered still being favored "in terms of raw healing power" .


you have given no evidence, i am not one to take people on their "Feelings". i have math on my side. powered is the way to go. you need to show this besides saying you have " found something that hits hard" and "seen which keeps your HP up better" and "that's what I did".

what do you mean "defensive builds as a healer", there is only a support healer or nonsupport healer and that is almost completely by the sets they wear, sets that give other player bonuses or debuff the enemy or a healer that don't.

healers by definition are not suppose to be selfish, that is the dpses job.

I said I was not going to dignify it with an argument - not a response.

Your views are too rigid for me . Your ideas about what constitutes a bad or selfish healer are too narrow for the two of us to find any common ground about that. So it would be a waste of time and energy for us to bother debating it.

And yes - you offered evidence as to your case. But your case may be different the case of others. It was certainly different as to my case.

In my experience builds that utilize high spell critical out-heal builds that rely on straight healing increases. That was the point I was trying to make. As far as evidence - I'm not that here to try and prove anything to you or to anyone else for that matter. I simply shared my view about it (which are based on my own experiences and not feelings btw) and then encouraged others to try it out for themselves.

And yes - I prefer my healer to be defensive. I'm sorry if you think that makes me selfish. Well, actually in all honesty I'm not. But you are entitled to your opinion.

Wooh this derailed a bit.. it would of been better if you had actually read all of this. Through some expert who could point out the equations it was determined if your critical is no more than standard on "average" you will give some heals over time. Now say you are require less heals over time .. ex in battlegrounds than the average would have less usefulness compared to something like a trial. Now if you wish to add more dps or do more damage while healing then precise is the balance between the two to put on resto staff. To think otherwise is simply misguided belief in a falsehood. Look above the equations are solid, the scenarios have been explored. Mind you are free to play as you want... but if not open to explanations and reasons you do so at a cost.

Average healing over time is a very misleading standard. So even if I were to read his so-called equations as gospel they would not have swayed me. That's why i did not bother examining them.

For example: such a standard would not take into account the value of having higher burst healing during a shorter span of time - which could be of more use during a tense situation than higher drawn out averages.

Rarely do words like always apply. But you are free to believe that a Powered Restoration Staff is always the better choice for healing in every imaginable situation if you like - if that is what you and he are saying. I just disagree - and believe builds that focus on high spell critical would benefit more from precise.

Try to keep in mind that people can disagree with one another without being misguided and believing in falsehoods. Perhaps they have simply reached different conclusions based on different circumstances.

Tasear

Jeremy wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@Jeremy that build is not very good, no support, no spc, no worm, no trans, no nothing but self buff, that is the standard definition of a bad healer.

it really is simple math. powered will give you higher average heals then precise. it is similar to the ritual mundas vs thief.

from an earlier post by me

To calculate the average heal you will get, you need to know your crit hit damage increase, that is the amount your heal will crit for.

For example, I am a temp, so I get 10% more CHD from the adrid spear passive and I have 24% into elfborn, so together that adds 34% to the base of 50% extra, so .84.

Then you take the amount of crit chance I have without the thief, 42% and the amount I have with the thief, 58% and then multiply then out like this

.84*.42= .35

.84*.58=.49

And then subtract them, so 49-35= 14, which is the same amount I get from the ritual, note that I do not have full divines nor are all my pieces fully golded out.

Also take into consideration that the above is likely best case scenario, you lose any one of the needed buffs to reach the CHD and the CHC I have stated, ie major prophecy or if you are not a temp or nightblade for the extra 10% CHD, the ritual will be the best way to increase your heals, full stop. Though there is a good argument for healers doing damage and the ritual does nothing for that.

To take this with powered VS precise, you do the same math, you take your Crit hit damage modifier, at base is .5, then multiply it by your crit chance, then you get your average healing increase.


At base, without the thief most healers will have 42% crit chance, in pve, so they will go to 51% with precise, so taking into consideration that the OP is a sorc and does not have the same 10% increase in CHD as a templar but you are a sorc, so you are even better off with powered then a templar would be, as your CHD would not be as high.

let's take a case with a sorc wearing worm and spc, staple healer sets that have no crit bonus and are expected in any serious content.

45% crit chance and a base .5 CHD, a .25 increase to CHD from champion points, so togther, .75

.45 * .75 = .34 < without precise

with precise, it would be

.54 * .75 = .41 < with precise

that leaves .41 - . 34 = .07, that is a gain of 7% average increase in heals, which is less the straight 9% from powered.

best case with a sorc would look like this with warhorn for .15 more CHD

.45 * .9 = .41 < without precise

and

.54 * .9 = .49 < with precise

so again .49- .41 = .08, so that is a gain of 8% in heals a best case for a sorc, still less overall healing then 9% powered.

now let's do yours @Jeremy

not using any set the supports your team, it is easy to get to 65% with just thief and julianos, that leaves 7% with precise to get to 72% on a non sorc, so your base is going to be 65% and i am going to use the current value, 7%, instead the the buffed values both precise and powered are receiving next patch.


Best case is that you are a templar, so you get an extra 10% CHD, so you get a base of .85 if you have the elf born node max, which you will if you are smart and want to get he most of you high crit chance.

that is

.65 * .85 = .55 < without precise

and

.72 * .85 = .61 <with precise

that is .61 - .55 = .06, you get 6% more average heals with precise, still less then the 7% from powered.


even if you use mother's sorrow, which gives 7% crit chance on the five piece, you get the following,

.72 * .85 = .61 < without precise

and

.79 * .85 = .67 < with precise

leaving you with .67 - .61= .06, a 6% increase in average heals, again less then the 7% from powered currently.





that is the long version of powered > precise when it comes to pure healing.



it is also important to note, that if you use any set that heals like twilight remedy, it gets no benefit from precise, since sets can not crit at all but can be increased by healing done percentage modifiers.

Long version indeed.

I'll confess I did not read all of this, so keep that in mind if you respond. Your suggestion that any healer not wearing worm, spc, or trans is a bad healer is of course ridiculous. So I'm not going to dignify that absurd generality with an argument.

Certainly there are better support builds out there. The build I posted was not designed to support. It was a build I threw together to achieve high critical chance so I could compare and see how it measured up against a build that utilized straight healing increases (Powered, Healer's Habit, Ritual Mundus etc.) And after my tests I concluded that high critical chance builds achieved more effective healing.

Now you are welcome to disagree with me if you like. As I pointed out - there are likely other factors involved that may influence the results. But posting a lot of numbers on a forum are not going to convince me that my own tests were somehow flawed as I witnessed them myself. That being said: I am perfectly content to agree to disagree about this.

The only thing I would say further is to encourage other aspiring healers on here to try high critical builds out on their own before dismissing them. Because there are a lot of healers I know who stack crit and after testing it myself (most out of curiosity) I understand why. It's good - even though I personally prefer other more defensive builds.

Jeremy wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@Jeremy that build is not very good, no support, no spc, no worm, no trans, no nothing but self buff, that is the standard definition of a bad healer.

it really is simple math. powered will give you higher average heals then precise. it is similar to the ritual mundas vs thief.

from an earlier post by me

To calculate the average heal you will get, you need to know your crit hit damage increase, that is the amount your heal will crit for.

For example, I am a temp, so I get 10% more CHD from the adrid spear passive and I have 24% into elfborn, so together that adds 34% to the base of 50% extra, so .84.

Then you take the amount of crit chance I have without the thief, 42% and the amount I have with the thief, 58% and then multiply then out like this

.84*.42= .35

.84*.58=.49

And then subtract them, so 49-35= 14, which is the same amount I get from the ritual, note that I do not have full divines nor are all my pieces fully golded out.

Also take into consideration that the above is likely best case scenario, you lose any one of the needed buffs to reach the CHD and the CHC I have stated, ie major prophecy or if you are not a temp or nightblade for the extra 10% CHD, the ritual will be the best way to increase your heals, full stop. Though there is a good argument for healers doing damage and the ritual does nothing for that.

To take this with powered VS precise, you do the same math, you take your Crit hit damage modifier, at base is .5, then multiply it by your crit chance, then you get your average healing increase.


At base, without the thief most healers will have 42% crit chance, in pve, so they will go to 51% with precise, so taking into consideration that the OP is a sorc and does not have the same 10% increase in CHD as a templar but you are a sorc, so you are even better off with powered then a templar would be, as your CHD would not be as high.

let's take a case with a sorc wearing worm and spc, staple healer sets that have no crit bonus and are expected in any serious content.

45% crit chance and a base .5 CHD, a .25 increase to CHD from champion points, so togther, .75

.45 * .75 = .34 < without precise

with precise, it would be

.54 * .75 = .41 < with precise

that leaves .41 - . 34 = .07, that is a gain of 7% average increase in heals, which is less the straight 9% from powered.

best case with a sorc would look like this with warhorn for .15 more CHD

.45 * .9 = .41 < without precise

and

.54 * .9 = .49 < with precise

so again .49- .41 = .08, so that is a gain of 8% in heals a best case for a sorc, still less overall healing then 9% powered.

now let's do yours @Jeremy

not using any set the supports your team, it is easy to get to 65% with just thief and julianos, that leaves 7% with precise to get to 72% on a non sorc, so your base is going to be 65% and i am going to use the current value, 7%, instead the the buffed values both precise and powered are receiving next patch.


Best case is that you are a templar, so you get an extra 10% CHD, so you get a base of .85 if you have the elf born node max, which you will if you are smart and want to get he most of you high crit chance.

that is

.65 * .85 = .55 < without precise

and

.72 * .85 = .61 <with precise

that is .61 - .55 = .06, you get 6% more average heals with precise, still less then the 7% from powered.


even if you use mother's sorrow, which gives 7% crit chance on the five piece, you get the following,

.72 * .85 = .61 < without precise

and

.79 * .85 = .67 < with precise

leaving you with .67 - .61= .06, a 6% increase in average heals, again less then the 7% from powered currently.





that is the long version of powered > precise when it comes to pure healing.



it is also important to note, that if you use any set that heals like twilight remedy, it gets no benefit from precise, since sets can not crit at all but can be increased by healing done percentage modifiers.

Long version indeed.

I'll confess I did not read all of this, so keep that in mind if you respond. Your suggestion that any healer not wearing worm, spc, or trans is a bad healer is of course ridiculous. So I'm not going to dignify that absurd generality with an argument.

Certainly there are better support builds out there. The build I posted was not designed to support. It was a build I threw together to achieve high critical chance so I could compare and see how it measured up against a build that utilized straight healing increases (Powered, Healer's Habit, Ritual Mundus etc.) And after my tests I concluded that high Critical chance builds achieved more effective healing.

Now you are welcome to disagree with me if you like. As I pointed out - there are likely other factors involved that may influence the results. But posting a lot of numbers on a forum are not going to convince me that my own results were somehow flawed as I witnessed them myself. That being said: I am perfectly content to agree to disagree about this.

The only thing I would say further is to encourage other aspiring healers on here to try high critical builds out on their own before dismissing them. Because there are a lot of healers I know who stack crit and after testing it myself I understand why. It's good - even though I personally prefer other more defensive builds.

To be honest, for most content he is kind of right you know. There is such a thing as over healing and buffing and supporting your team in those ways is more important than using sets that just buffs your healing done, be it via magicka, spell power or other. It doesn't mean you are a bad healer per say, but I would say you are wasting your set bonuses.

But that was beside my point. I was not talking about supporting or buffing - nor was I suggesting that such a build was superior. In fact - I pointed out that I did not even use that build on a regular basis and preferred other builds. So if that was his point - it really did not relate to my comments.

I was speaking only in terms of raw healing power - and in that respect I believe high critical builds are superior to builds that rely on straight healing increases. The argument that there are more effective builds for content that does not require critical healing is a fair one - but it's not one I was disputing or even one that I wish to dispute.

I personally prefer defensive builds as a healer and my critical chance is terrible. But for those healers who do stack critical chance I can certainly understand why they do it. It offers great healing and significant damage - which can be useful in many situations.

FIrst LOL at bold, you saying you won't give a response IS a response.



i was not giving evidence about about ALL crit or ALL healing done, i simply showed that in this case, IE powered vs precise, that powered is the one that will give you more average healing, that is higher healing over a long enough timeline and even then it was around a 1% difference in the very best case, with powered still being favored "in terms of raw healing power" .


you have given no evidence, i am not one to take people on their "Feelings". i have math on my side. powered is the way to go. you need to show this besides saying you have " found something that hits hard" and "seen which keeps your HP up better" and "that's what I did".

what do you mean "defensive builds as a healer", there is only a support healer or nonsupport healer and that is almost completely by the sets they wear, sets that give other player bonuses or debuff the enemy or a healer that don't.

healers by definition are not suppose to be selfish, that is the dpses job.

I said I was not going to dignify it with an argument - not a response.

Your views are too rigid for me . Your ideas about what constitutes a bad or selfish healer are too narrow for the two of us to find any common ground about that. So it would be a waste of time and energy for us to bother debating it.

And yes - you offered evidence as to your case. But your case may be different the case of others. It was certainly different as to my case.

In my experience builds that utilize high spell critical out-heal builds that rely on straight healing increases. That was the point I was trying to make. As far as evidence - I'm not that here to try and prove anything to you or to anyone else for that matter. I simply shared my view about it (which are based on my own experiences and not feelings btw) and then encouraged others to try it out for themselves.

And yes - I prefer my healer to be defensive. I'm sorry if you think that makes me selfish. Well, actually in all honesty I'm not. But you are entitled to your opinion.

Wooh this derailed a bit.. it would of been better if you had actually read all of this. Through some expert who could point out the equations it was determined if your critical is no more than standard on "average" you will give some heals over time. Now say you are require less heals over time .. ex in battlegrounds than the average would have less usefulness compared to something like a trial. Now if you wish to add more dps or do more damage while healing then precise is the balance between the two to put on resto staff. To think otherwise is simply misguided belief in a falsehood. Look above the equations are solid, the scenarios have been explored. Mind you are free to play as you want... but if not open to explanations and reasons you do so at a cost.

Average healing over time is a very misleading standard. So even if I were to read his so-called equations as gospel they would not have swayed me. That's why i did not bother examining them.

For example: such a standard would not take into account the value of having higher burst healing during a shorter span of time - which could be of more use during a tense situation than higher drawn out averages.

Rarely do words like always apply. But you are free to believe that a Powered Restoration Staff is always the better choice for healing in every imaginable situation if you like - if that is what you and he are saying. I just disagree - and believe builds that focus on high spell critical would benefit more from precise.

Try to keep in mind that people can disagree with one another without being misguided and believing in falsehoods. Perhaps they have simply reached different conclusions based on different circumstances.

You are not examing the facts. We pointed out when one was better than the other. It's not gospel it's math.

On your point since you mentioned burst healing you are either speaking of Templar or sorrecer which is 5k to 10k per Ally without crictal . Most allies have around 15k health. Assuming you time this right and are using other supplanting skills than for intense fights the average will be better as long as you are only healing

max_only

Good stuff in this thread, I'm always looking to squeeze out some extra heals

Asardes

Powered is clearly better than precise with one notable exception: Combat Physician set, which is very good in 4 man content but inadequate for trials since it can only shield one person.

For trials powered is actually really good because it makes all your HoTs consistently tick harder, keeping everyone at full health and requiring less burst healing. This means better sustain since burst healing is expensive and can only hit a few people. One of the important sources of healing in trials are energy orbs which also fill resources. If you have a big magicka pool and high spell damage, combined with powered trait and CP in blessed you can almost keep people fully healed only using those and using combat prayer as a burst that heals people for 50% or more in one hit. You can also aim it reliably and it should be on your bar, refreshed periodically, for the buffs it provides. In static situations if you stack ritual and springs, which are also cheap, on top of those, you can heal trough anything, cheaply and consistently and also keep resources full.

spikesaurus

I use a charged master resto... The absolute best option in my opinion. (maybe a powered Masters would also be ok.
For those that don't have a Master resto, I suggest going with precise, but either is sufficient & the difference in traits is negligible after next patch for healing. More about skill & knowing when to move & where to move much more than anything else will make your healing better. Goodluck out there.

Honghua

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Heals scale off of spell damage and max magic so increasing your spell damage also increases your heals. There is probably some threshold that if your spell damage is really low then powered might be better, but when I tested it I had 2600 spell power and I was getting much bigger heals with nirnhoned then powered.

Wearing sets that increase healing might put powered on top, not sure how that passive would scale with nirn vs powered since eso can sometimes use some real fuzzy math xD

You are wrong here by a huge margin.
Nirnohed on weapon increases just a current weapon scaling by 11% not overall weapon/spell damage. That makes it way worse than powered, since resto gold staff with 1335 dmg, it will give only about 146 spell damage thats almost nothing for the overall healing spell about 320 points no matter the about of spelldamage or magicka you have since spell damage scales linear with abilities, while powered 7% gives about 3 times bigger benefits than this since it is scaling out of a total amount of heal, not the 1 factor of the ability scaling and not only that but it also scales with the other healing bonuses scaling.
Comparing 2 staffs on same CP and color, 6% healing bonus gives me 700 healing on a 8k healing ability.

jaschacasadiob16_ESO

I am currently using Precise. I have tried different combinations of Staves and Mondus Stones in the past. I currently have some 2100 mana regen and over 50% spell critical, which I prefer to having 1600 mana regen and around 65% critical chance.

The HoTs crit a lot and the do heal very much. Usually combining Aura and Rapid Regeneration is enough to keep everyone safe. So at the moment Precise. Later on we will see...

Flameheart

As already explained above Powered > Precise in PvE anytime (in PvP spellcrit might be more valuable).

It won't change with the next DLC and the upcoming PTS changes. Powered will be 9% instead of 7% on a golden staff and so will Precise (9% instead of 7%). The Ritual Mundus remains unchanged. Just the Atronach will give more magicka reg.

...so for healers there won't change much. There will be changes for DDs though due to weapon trait changes, that will have much more Impact:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/359916/mundus-trait-and-cp-optimisation-for-pve-damage-dealers#latest

At moment Torug's Pact seems to be best-in-slot for all DDs, even for stamina DDs, great job ZOS :-)

Tasear

hmm... I wonder some benifit for champions or healer under 50 to use precise.

Flameheart wrote: »

As already explained above Powered > Precise in PvE anytime (in PvP spellcrit might be more valuable).

It won't change with the next DLC and the upcoming PTS changes. Powered will be 9% instead of 7% on a golden staff and so will Precise (9% instead of 7%). The Ritual Mundus remains unchanged. Just the Atronach will give more magicka reg.

...so for healers there won't change much. There will be changes for DDs though due to weapon trait changes, that will have much more Impact:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/359916/mundus-trait-and-cp-optimisation-for-pve-damage-dealers#latest

At moment Torug's Pact seems to be best-in-slot even for Stamina DDs :-)

Let's think about this.

Situation 1 : Generic Battlegrounds Healer

Average heals are going to mean less, especially without champion points to sustain. Even going further battleground will benfit from a more dpsey healer, so precise would be advisable.

Situation 2: Chaos Ball

If I recall you will lose health long you hold the ball. So I would assume this all depends. Assuming you can sustain the situation than power will be a safe option, but when holding the ball to long precise might provide better as you go pass a certain threshold.

Situation 3: Cydrolli pvp

Zergs and random classes seem to be we can follow rule for situation 1.

Siuation 4: PvP Raid healer

YOu have dedicated you eso healer to helping your alliance tank keeps. So I am going to say powered if you are taking care of larger groups say 12 to 24.

DenniMyuu

None of those options. I haven't used Precise or Powered for ages. Infused on Master Resto and Infused on random staff with Crusher or Weakening enchant for PVE if you want to support your group nicely. There's so much overheal anyway and a oneshot is a oneshot (as in no shield or blocking or whatever mitigation) even with 8k Healing Springs.

As for PVP... I would agree with a powered trait if you're really just gonna heal your raid/group. If it's just your defensive offbar - defending.