Proc sets, animation canceling, etc. The debate is over counterplay.

tinythinker

However you feel about proc sets and animation cancelling and similar hot button issues, keep in mind that the heart of these issues is a desire for what people think is fair counterplay.

You may think it already exists, and that's your opinion, but try to see it from the perspective of those who disagree.

For example, does your idea of counterplay rely on one or more the following:

- making major build and gear changes
- having extensive experience in PvP
- luck
- being able to quickly break free or dodge roll
- playing a particular class
- the availability of terrain features that may not always be available

If so, keep in mind that your counterplay suggestion isn't broadly equitable. People who have less time or help farming gear, who are new, who have slower machines or internet connections, etc, etc, won't find it as easy to use those counters.

This isn't an argument for or against nerfing or removing anything from the game, but an appeal to try to appreciate that we all have different capacities and experiences and everyone wants to think that they have a reasonably level playing field.

For example, a gear set that has a chance to counter proc sets in some way would be great for PvP, still gives a chance for proc sets to be useful, and doesn't require nerfs that hurt PvE play.

An ability that anyone can get that interrupts or stuns someone when you are attacked, like the Sorc ability, gives a chance for a player to to fight back against rapid-kill gank builds.

And so on.

There are ways to fix these issues without having to insult each other or simply quit a part of the game (or the game itself).

Share your ideas and explain why you think it helps level the playing field for everyone (which makes skill matter more, right?).

CyrusArya

If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. While proc sets need to be toned down for sure, animation cancelling (which is a misnomer anyways I prefer weaving) is a skill available to anybody. Just because some people are new or inexperienced or whatever does not mean that the games skill ceiling needs to be brought down to accommodate them. You never cater to the lowest common denominator if its excellence you're pursuing.

Voxicity

CyrusArya wrote: »

animation cancelling (which is a misnomer anyways I prefer weaving) .

I think weaving just refers to 'weaving' light attacks into your rotation. Calling block or weapon swap cancelling 'weaving' doesn't really make much sense, in terms of the definition of 'weave'.

sly007

CyrusArya wrote: »

If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. While proc sets need to be toned down for sure, animation cancelling (which is a misnomer anyways I prefer weaving) is a skill available to anybody. Just because some people are new or inexperienced or whatever does not mean that the games skill ceiling needs to be brought down to accommodate them. You never cater to the lowest common denominator of its excellence you're pursuing.

Weaving and animation canceling are different things. A player can weave light and heavy attacks between every ability but not all abilities can be animation cancelled for its effects or full effects. A player can weave and anmation cancel surprise attack, but dizzy swing (cast time ability) can only be weaved, not animation cancelled.

CyrusArya

Voxicity wrote: »

I think weaving just refers to 'weaving' light attacks into your rotation. Calling block or weapon swap cancelling 'weaving' doesn't really make much sense, in terms of the definition of 'weave'.

As someone who 'animation cancels' defensive abilities much more than offensive abilities, I see it as stringing abilities together in the most fluid manner for seamless gameplay. But I do see your point. I just don't like the term animation cancelling because ZOS literally changed the mechanics of the game so that you couldn't 'hide' abilities any more. You see everything now. The only thing you can cancel are instant cast skills, which means you aren't actually bypassing any mechanics or animations since the skill is supposed to fire the instant its pressed. When people complain about cancelling these days, it would be patently false to say there is no counterplay or that they are dying to things they can't see. Rather they are just complain that the game is too fast paced.

IronCrystal

tinythinker wrote: »

For example, does your idea of counterplay rely on one or more the following:

- making major build and gear changes

If so, keep in mind that your counterplay suggestion isn't broadly equitable. People who have less time or help farming gear, who are new, who have slower machines or internet connections, etc, etc, won't find it as easy to use those counters.

If you don't change your gear based on balance changes or your situation, you are always going to fail.

Having different sets for different situations is all part of the game.

I have no sympathy for people who think their gear will work in all aspects of the game and still be good.

Vaoh

CyrusArya wrote: »

If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. While proc sets need to be toned down for sure, animation cancelling (which is a misnomer anyways I prefer weaving) is a skill available to anybody. Just because some people are new or inexperienced or whatever does not mean that the games skill ceiling needs to be brought down to accommodate them. You never cater to the lowest common denominator if its excellence you're pursuing.

Each skill has a 1 second Global Cooldown (GCD).

No matter how skills are animation cancelled, this cannot be bypassed to cast more skills overtime than someone who doesn't do it.

Here's something to check out so you don't use "animation cancelling" and "weaving" interchangably as many have done lately.

• Light Attack Weaving - Casting a light attack inbetween two skill casts
• Medium Attack Weaving - Casting a medium attack (slightly charged Heavy Attack) inbetween two skill casts
• Block Animation Cancel - Cancel a skill's animation by blocking
• Dodge Animation Cancel - Cancel a skill's animation by dodge rolling
• Weapon Swap Animation Cancel - Cancel a skill's animation by swapping weapons

This pretty much sums it all up..... hope that helped

tinythinker

CyrusArya wrote: »

If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. While proc sets need to be toned down for sure, animation cancelling (which is a misnomer anyways I prefer weaving) is a skill available to anybody. Just because some people are new or inexperienced or whatever does not mean that the games skill ceiling needs to be brought down to accommodate them. You never cater to the lowest common denominator if its excellence you're pursuing.

Hi, I'm not into peep shows or public lewdness, this thread is about understanding other points of view, not having people watch you stroke your epeen. Mind doing that in private?

tinythinker

CyrusArya wrote: »

Voxicity wrote: »

I think weaving just refers to 'weaving' light attacks into your rotation. Calling block or weapon swap cancelling 'weaving' doesn't really make much sense, in terms of the definition of 'weave'.

As someone who 'animation cancels' defensive abilities much more than offensive abilities, I see it as stringing abilities together in the most fluid manner for seamless gameplay. But I do see your point. I just don't like the term animation cancelling because ZOS literally changed the mechanics of the game so that you couldn't 'hide' abilities any more. You see everything now. The only thing you can cancel are instant cast skills, which means you aren't actually bypassing any mechanics or animations since the skill is supposed to fire the instant its pressed. When people complain about cancelling these days, it would be patently false to say there is no counterplay or that they are dying to things they can't see. Rather they are just complain that the game is too fast paced.

Some people will have trouble with it, no matter how much they practice. In any event, proc sets were an answer to this because those who can't weave/cancel very well could still get some extra damage in PvE. Those who can do it really well would get even more. But in PvP proc sets caused a different issue with balance, so they got nerfed, making those who wanted them in order to better at PvE mad.

Plus, in PvP, some types of cancelling animation made some builds/rotations too strong. That is still true (see umpteen threads on that). So, again, looking at all of this and how it fits together, this is why I made my suggestions in my OP. It lets PvE people who need help get extra dps with proc sets, eliminates some BS from PvP, and allows people to work on getting better at the game in a competitive but more accessible environment.

tinythinker

IronCrystal wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

For example, does your idea of counterplay rely on one or more the following:

- making major build and gear changes

If so, keep in mind that your counterplay suggestion isn't broadly equitable. People who have less time or help farming gear, who are new, who have slower machines or internet connections, etc, etc, won't find it as easy to use those counters.

If you don't change your gear based on balance changes or your situation, you are always going to fail.

Having different sets for different situations is all part of the game.

I have no sympathy for people who think their gear will work in all aspects of the game and still be good.

I don't completely disagree, but some gear sets require lots of massive grinding and the blessed favor of the RNG gods. If a counterplay element requires that grind, then it isn't readily accessible to everyone. On the other hand, things that pop into your box for Rewards of the Worthy are easy to get, even if you have no one to grind with.

CyrusArya

tinythinker wrote: »

Hi, I'm not into peep shows or public lewdness, this thread is about understanding other points of view, not having people watch you stroke your epeen. Mind doing that in private?

What part of my post did you perceive to be inappropriate? Are perspectives only valid when they align with your views? All I'm saying is that animation cancelling is fine and that any issues that existed with it have already been resolved. Theres no need for this to be an on going point of discussion because these threads naturally devolve into 'animation cancelling is cheating.

MarbleQuiche

When you get hit by the same skill from the same person 5 times within a fraction of a second, that's not animation cancelling. Nobody, not even Usain Bolt with his Virgin fibre optics, is that fast.

That's cheating.

Are there any videos out there that show animation cancelling giving an unfair advantage? I'd love to see them because I don't recall ever being on the end of such a situation myself.

Cheating? Sure been the victim of that a few times. Are people maybe getting these two things muddled up?

Anlace

@tinythinker wrote: »

For example, a gear set that has a chance to counter proc sets in some way would be great for PvP, still gives a chance for proc sets to be useful, and doesn't require nerfs that hurt PvE play.

That's an interesting idea. I'd like to see how it would play out.

tinythinker wrote: »

An ability that anyone can get that interrupts or stuns someone when you are attacked, like the Sorc ability, gives a chance for a player to to fight back against rapid-kill gank builds.

This I would love to see. Sorcs have plenty of super-useful skills all to themselves, I think some version of that one should be shared.

I don't really have any ideas to contribute, I'm still a PVP ubernoob and may stay that way. It's too bad though the discussions devolve so quickly to "L2P" or cries for nerfs.

Edit: also once people get offended or think something is going to be taken from them, reading comprehension goes right out the window. Jeez

tinythinker

CyrusArya wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

Hi, I'm not into peep shows or public lewdness, this thread is about understanding other points of view, not having people watch you stroke your epeen. Mind doing that in private?

What part of my post did you perceive to be inappropriate? Are perspectives only valid when they align with your views? All I'm saying is that animation cancelling is fine and that any issues that existed with it have already been resolved. Theres no need for this to be an on going point of discussion because these threads naturally devolve into 'animation cancelling is cheating.

Well, did you see my views? I asked for people to make suggestions based on trying to think more broadly. Notice that I never said animation cancelling is bad. If you look at my last reply before this, you will see why I think all of these issues that people complain about like ani-cancelling, proc sets, insta-ganks, etc, are linked. That goes back to my suggestions in the OP. I would like a game in which people feel things are fair and in which competition is something that is level. That way you earn your "excellence".

I'm asking people to think, "Well, OK, I see why this is an issue for some people, so here is how we can make things better" as opposed to the usual types of replies implying that people are to blame or should "get out". And this goes for people who think animation-cancelers should be banned. I'm tired of ego ahead of the overall welfare of the game in so many replies. If that wasn't your intent, I apologize for any offense but not for the humor of the reply.

IronCrystal

MarbleQuiche wrote: »

When you get hit by the same skill from the same person 5 times within a fraction of a second, that's not animation cancelling. Nobody, not even Usain Bolt with his Virgin fibre optics, is that fast.

That's cheating.

Are there any videos out there that show animation cancelling giving an unfair advantage? I'd love to see them because I don't recall ever being on the end of such a situation myself.

Cheating? Sure been the victim of that a few times. Are people maybe getting these two things muddled up?

Did you mean to post in the other thread?

tinythinker

MarbleQuiche wrote: »

When you get hit by the same skill from the same person 5 times within a fraction of a second, that's not animation cancelling. Nobody, not even Usain Bolt with his Virgin fibre optics, is that fast.

That's cheating.

Are there any videos out there that show animation cancelling giving an unfair advantage? I'd love to see them because I don't recall ever being on the end of such a situation myself.

Cheating? Sure been the victim of that a few times. Are people maybe getting these two things muddled up?

Yes, people are getting things confused then getting pissed and then other people are getting offended and pissed and so... I'm trying to frame things in a different way, to make distinctions, to show that many of us actually want similar things, and that these issues are all linked, so we have to look at solutions more comprehensively.

MarbleQuiche

IronCrystal wrote: »

MarbleQuiche wrote: »

When you get hit by the same skill from the same person 5 times within a fraction of a second, that's not animation cancelling. Nobody, not even Usain Bolt with his Virgin fibre optics, is that fast.

That's cheating.

Are there any videos out there that show animation cancelling giving an unfair advantage? I'd love to see them because I don't recall ever being on the end of such a situation myself.

Cheating? Sure been the victim of that a few times. Are people maybe getting these two things muddled up?

Did you mean to post in the other thread?

Anything is possible, but you're wasting your time asking me. No idea what I'm doing most of the time. Not sure I'm alone in that.

ParaNostram

The upcoming changes to proc sets are pretty solid in concept though a little wonky in the adjustments, a full second delay on a lot of these is just too much. Make it 0.8 seconds, it'll hit those who do not think to dodge but there will be the opportunity for a more skilled player to dodge it.

MarbleQuiche

tinythinker wrote: »

MarbleQuiche wrote: »

When you get hit by the same skill from the same person 5 times within a fraction of a second, that's not animation cancelling. Nobody, not even Usain Bolt with his Virgin fibre optics, is that fast.

That's cheating.

Are there any videos out there that show animation cancelling giving an unfair advantage? I'd love to see them because I don't recall ever being on the end of such a situation myself.

Cheating? Sure been the victim of that a few times. Are people maybe getting these two things muddled up?

Yes, people are getting things confused then getting pissed and then other people are getting offended and pissed and so... I'm trying to frame things in a different way, to make distinctions, to show that many of us actually want similar things, and that these issues are all linked, so we have to look at solutions more comprehensively.

@tinythinker That's definitely a better conversation to have.

Judas Helviaryn

All I see in this thread, and the countless others like it, are people who don't quite know what animation cancelling is, they don't understand how latency affects their game, and they don't understand the difference between benign animation cancelling and macro slicing, the latter of which is an issue.

I also see people who believe a set that adds damage in a form other than a skill buff is somehow worse than said skill buffing set.

You have what I call a damage profile. It can be front loaded, bursty. It can be spread out, usually what you see in PVE dps rotations. It can be a combination, and have the burst and sustain portions respectively distributed throughout your rotation in such a way that you control the flow of combat to an insane degree.

This is, in no small way, thanks to proc sets and our ability to cancel animations, as well as our class choice and skill morphs, and combat approach.

What people do to change that damage proflle, with the same overall DPS, can mean the difference between success and failure to eliminate your target.

Proc sets are gaining more counter-play for those who can't handle them, animation cancelling is good for the game, not including macro slicing, which is an ongoing issue.

Everyone needs to educate themselves.

GrumpyDuckling

CyrusArya wrote: »

If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. While proc sets need to be toned down for sure, animation cancelling (which is a misnomer anyways I prefer weaving) is a skill available to anybody. Just because some people are new or inexperienced or whatever does not mean that the games skill ceiling needs to be brought down to accommodate them. You never cater to the lowest common denominator if its excellence you're pursuing.

"Animation canceling is a skill available to anybody."

A good deal of counterplay involves SEEING what your opponent is doing and reacting to it. Hiding animation movements is not a "skill" when we discuss counterplay because it doesn't allow opponent to SEE what is happening and try to counter it.

So your statement about catering to the lowest common denominator doesn't fit here. Instead you're advocating for no counterplay as far as animation canceling is concerned.

tinythinker

Judas Helviaryn wrote: »

All I see in this thread, and the countless others like it...

Please read the my OP again and my replies, rather than jumping in with your preconceptions from all of those other threads.

MarbleQuiche

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

A good deal of counterplay involves SEEING what your opponent is doing and reacting to it. Hiding animation movements is not a "skill" when we discuss counterplay because it doesn't allow opponent to SEE what is happening and try to counter it.

So your statement about catering to the lowest common denominator doesn't fit here. Instead you're advocating for no counterplay as far as animation canceling is concerned.

But the skills you can do this on have already been broadcast when you cancel the animation. There's no counter to them, cancelled or not.

That begins a discussion on whether instant cast skills belong in a competitive and fair game. I can see the argument on why they don't belong and even agree, but I don't see such a fundamental design change happening. As such, I think ESO has to be accepted as mostly fun, sometimes unfair, but not somewhere that has the ruleset needed for players serious about testing themselves against one another.

Voxicity

CyrusArya wrote: »

Voxicity wrote: »

I think weaving just refers to 'weaving' light attacks into your rotation. Calling block or weapon swap cancelling 'weaving' doesn't really make much sense, in terms of the definition of 'weave'.

As someone who 'animation cancels' defensive abilities much more than offensive abilities, I see it as stringing abilities together in the most fluid manner for seamless gameplay. But I do see your point. I just don't like the term animation cancelling because ZOS literally changed the mechanics of the game so that you couldn't 'hide' abilities any more. You see everything now. The only thing you can cancel are instant cast skills, which means you aren't actually bypassing any mechanics or animations since the skill is supposed to fire the instant its pressed. When people complain about cancelling these days, it would be patently false to say there is no counterplay or that they are dying to things they can't see. Rather they are just complain that the game is too fast paced.

Agreed

tinythinker

MarbleQuiche wrote: »

That begins a discussion on whether instant cast skills belong in a competitive and fair game.

That would still be a more productive debate than most of what happens now on these forums

leepalmer95

MarbleQuiche wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

A good deal of counterplay involves SEEING what your opponent is doing and reacting to it. Hiding animation movements is not a "skill" when we discuss counterplay because it doesn't allow opponent to SEE what is happening and try to counter it.

So your statement about catering to the lowest common denominator doesn't fit here. Instead you're advocating for no counterplay as far as animation canceling is concerned.

But the skills you can do this on have already been broadcast when you cancel the animation. There's no counter to them, cancelled or not.

That begins a discussion on whether instant cast skills belong in a competitive and fair game. I can see the argument on why they don't belong and even agree, but I don't see such a fundamental design change happening. As such, I think ESO has to be accepted as mostly fun, sometimes unfair, but not somewhere that has the ruleset needed for players serious about testing themselves against one another.

Competivie?
Fair?

Those works shouldn't never be used to describe eso. The dev's choices and overall inadequacy has killed any motion of competitive and fair pvp in this game. Can even be said the same for pve.

tinythinker

leepalmer95 wrote: »

MarbleQuiche wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

A good deal of counterplay involves SEEING what your opponent is doing and reacting to it. Hiding animation movements is not a "skill" when we discuss counterplay because it doesn't allow opponent to SEE what is happening and try to counter it.

So your statement about catering to the lowest common denominator doesn't fit here. Instead you're advocating for no counterplay as far as animation canceling is concerned.

But the skills you can do this on have already been broadcast when you cancel the animation. There's no counter to them, cancelled or not.

That begins a discussion on whether instant cast skills belong in a competitive and fair game. I can see the argument on why they don't belong and even agree, but I don't see such a fundamental design change happening. As such, I think ESO has to be accepted as mostly fun, sometimes unfair, but not somewhere that has the ruleset needed for players serious about testing themselves against one another.

Competivie?
Fair?

Those works shouldn't never be used to describe eso. The dev's choices and overall inadequacy has killed any motion of competitive and fair pvp in this game. Can even be said the same for pve.

Yet, it's at the heart of the complaints about canceling, proc sets, gear grinds, etc, etc. If people feel the playing field is too tilted or to hard to be competitive in (and there is where counterplay comes into PvP), they will complain. Then people will dismiss them as whiners. Then things get ugly. Over and over...

---

Per my OP and first two or three replies, some of it is learning about and practicing the game, some of it is genuinely unbalanced, so lumping it all as one or the other is counterproductive. (Not that you were doing that but it happens a lot here on the forums and clouds the issues.)

Good example. I just lasted 5 minutes vs. 2 then 3 then up to 6 people. In 5L 2H. With crap gear and stats. And only my experience to guide me. That, for them, is a L2P issue. Other situations, are a "ZOS, WTH were you thinking???" issue. Nothing will ever be truly fair or balanced but ZOS can do better, and we can help by trying to think of the fun and balance for all players not just a subset. I really hope that isn't asking too much

Ch4mpTW

leepalmer95 wrote: »

MarbleQuiche wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

A good deal of counterplay involves SEEING what your opponent is doing and reacting to it. Hiding animation movements is not a "skill" when we discuss counterplay because it doesn't allow opponent to SEE what is happening and try to counter it.

So your statement about catering to the lowest common denominator doesn't fit here. Instead you're advocating for no counterplay as far as animation canceling is concerned.

But the skills you can do this on have already been broadcast when you cancel the animation. There's no counter to them, cancelled or not.

That begins a discussion on whether instant cast skills belong in a competitive and fair game. I can see the argument on why they don't belong and even agree, but I don't see such a fundamental design change happening. As such, I think ESO has to be accepted as mostly fun, sometimes unfair, but not somewhere that has the ruleset needed for players serious about testing themselves against one another.

Competivie?
Fair?

Those works shouldn't never be used to describe eso. The dev's choices and overall inadequacy has killed any motion of competitive and fair pvp in this game. Can even be said the same for pve.

@leepalmer95 First time I have ever immediately slapped that agree button upon reading something you posted with the quickness. Not only a strong +1 to you, but an instant +1 at that. You're deadass talking straight facts with that post, bruh.

Judas Helviaryn

tinythinker wrote: »

Judas Helviaryn wrote: »

All I see in this thread, and the countless others like it...

Please read the my OP again and my replies, rather than jumping in with your preconceptions from all of those other threads.

Use the full quote, or don't quote at all. I wasn't addressing you, though I am sure in your own expectation about posting a thread like this, it must have seemed that way. People who flock to these threads to demonize people are who I am talking about, as I have made abundantly clear if my own post had been thoroughly understood.

While on the subject though, some of your qualifiers for fair and unfair counterplay, implied or not, do not match up.

Being able to break free or dodge roll quickly is a skill, albeit a very basic one akin to hitting a button quickly. It can be developed, and outside of certain disabilities is available to everyone.

Ditto to making builds to counter certain playstyles. It's a skill that must be practiced, and it is, by game design, a resource intensive endeavor.

You don't get something from nothing.

Terrain, locale, these are things that you take into consideration BEFORE you start the engagement.

Luck cannot be accounted for, and doesn't truly exist outside of our superstitious tendencies.

Anyone truly dedicated to competitive play will take these factors into account, because effort is required to manage them all.

Anyone who doesn't, and instead chooses to complain or attempt to change the game, is not dedicated enough to the task at hand.

It's a game. Learn to grow within the rules, instead of flipping the table.

This is addressed to all of those who apply, not necessarily the OP.

IronCrystal

leepalmer95 wrote: »

MarbleQuiche wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

A good deal of counterplay involves SEEING what your opponent is doing and reacting to it. Hiding animation movements is not a "skill" when we discuss counterplay because it doesn't allow opponent to SEE what is happening and try to counter it.

So your statement about catering to the lowest common denominator doesn't fit here. Instead you're advocating for no counterplay as far as animation canceling is concerned.

But the skills you can do this on have already been broadcast when you cancel the animation. There's no counter to them, cancelled or not.

That begins a discussion on whether instant cast skills belong in a competitive and fair game. I can see the argument on why they don't belong and even agree, but I don't see such a fundamental design change happening. As such, I think ESO has to be accepted as mostly fun, sometimes unfair, but not somewhere that has the ruleset needed for players serious about testing themselves against one another.

Competivie?
Fair?

Those works shouldn't never be used to describe eso. The dev's choices and overall inadequacy has killed any motion of competitive and fair pvp in this game. Can even be said the same for pve.

While I agree that PvP isn't that fair, what makes you think PvE is unfair or competitive?

leepalmer95

IronCrystal wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

MarbleQuiche wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

A good deal of counterplay involves SEEING what your opponent is doing and reacting to it. Hiding animation movements is not a "skill" when we discuss counterplay because it doesn't allow opponent to SEE what is happening and try to counter it.

So your statement about catering to the lowest common denominator doesn't fit here. Instead you're advocating for no counterplay as far as animation canceling is concerned.

But the skills you can do this on have already been broadcast when you cancel the animation. There's no counter to them, cancelled or not.

That begins a discussion on whether instant cast skills belong in a competitive and fair game. I can see the argument on why they don't belong and even agree, but I don't see such a fundamental design change happening. As such, I think ESO has to be accepted as mostly fun, sometimes unfair, but not somewhere that has the ruleset needed for players serious about testing themselves against one another.

Competivie?
Fair?

Those works shouldn't never be used to describe eso. The dev's choices and overall inadequacy has killed any motion of competitive and fair pvp in this game. Can even be said the same for pve.

While I agree that PvP isn't that fair, what makes you think PvE is unfair or competitive?

Bis Gear gated behind dlc's.

Stuff like world first clears were taken by a group which had access to the dlc 1 month before others.

The only competitive part of pve is trials and too a lesser extent vma.

Its quite hard for some people to get to the end game raiding stages because people already have their competitive raids.