Proc sets, animation canceling, etc. The debate is over counterplay.

squinceybones

tinythinker wrote: »

- making major build and gear changes
- having extensive experience in PvP
- luck
- being able to quickly break free or dodge roll
- playing a particular class
- the availability of terrain features that may not always be available

Are you sure you aren't playing Pokémon? Aside from break free etc, these things aren't specific to ESO, they're just parts of a competitive environment. Change your deck, experience (you get better the more you play...whaaa??), luck sure there's a coin flip in Pokémon, playing a particular class? Water Pokémon beat fire Pokémon, doesn't mean fire can't win and it doesn't mean water is cheating, oh and terrain (ADAPAT!). If you really want to dumb it down half of these things apply to chess.

tinythinker

squinceybones wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

- making major build and gear changes
- having extensive experience in PvP
- luck
- being able to quickly break free or dodge roll
- playing a particular class
- the availability of terrain features that may not always be available

Are you sure you aren't playing Pokémon? Aside from break free etc, these things aren't specific to ESO, they're just parts of a competitive environment. Change your deck, experience (you get better the more you play...whaaa??), luck sure there's a coin flip in Pokémon, playing a particular class? Water Pokémon beat fire Pokémon, doesn't mean fire can't win and it doesn't mean water is cheating, oh and terrain (ADAPAT!). If you really want to dumb it down half of these things apply to chess.

Yeah, good effort at being thoughtful.

squinceybones

tinythinker wrote: »

squinceybones wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

- making major build and gear changes
- having extensive experience in PvP
- luck
- being able to quickly break free or dodge roll
- playing a particular class
- the availability of terrain features that may not always be available

Are you sure you aren't playing Pokémon? Aside from break free etc, these things aren't specific to ESO, they're just parts of a competitive environment. Change your deck, experience (you get better the more you play...whaaa??), luck sure there's a coin flip in Pokémon, playing a particular class? Water Pokémon beat fire Pokémon, doesn't mean fire can't win and it doesn't mean water is cheating, oh and terrain (ADAPAT!). If you really want to dumb it down half of these things apply to chess.

Yeah, good effort at being thoughtful.

So... yes to Pokémon? I don't feel like you explained yourself.

IronCrystal

leepalmer95 wrote: »

IronCrystal wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

MarbleQuiche wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

A good deal of counterplay involves SEEING what your opponent is doing and reacting to it. Hiding animation movements is not a "skill" when we discuss counterplay because it doesn't allow opponent to SEE what is happening and try to counter it.

So your statement about catering to the lowest common denominator doesn't fit here. Instead you're advocating for no counterplay as far as animation canceling is concerned.

But the skills you can do this on have already been broadcast when you cancel the animation. There's no counter to them, cancelled or not.

That begins a discussion on whether instant cast skills belong in a competitive and fair game. I can see the argument on why they don't belong and even agree, but I don't see such a fundamental design change happening. As such, I think ESO has to be accepted as mostly fun, sometimes unfair, but not somewhere that has the ruleset needed for players serious about testing themselves against one another.

Competivie?
Fair?

Those works shouldn't never be used to describe eso. The dev's choices and overall inadequacy has killed any motion of competitive and fair pvp in this game. Can even be said the same for pve.

While I agree that PvP isn't that fair, what makes you think PvE is unfair or competitive?

Bis Gear gated behind dlc's.

Stuff like world first clears were taken by a group which had access to the dlc 1 month before others.

The only competitive part of pve is trials and too a lesser extent vma.

Its quite hard for some people to get to the end game raiding stages because people already have their competitive raids.

I would only ever consider trials and vMA as the competitive parts of PvE. Dungeons aren't very competitive. If they were, there would be leaderboards.

As far as DLC gated gear...I don't know how I feel about it. I buy all the DLC and I agree that some BiS gear is DLC gated, but I feel like if you wanna be competitive you have to have the full game anyways.

As for people having difficulty getting to raiding stages that's not really true, they just don't want to put in the time and effort to not be carried by others. Plenty of guilds have casual runs and if you really stand out, then you'd be picked for top tier guilds. Literally everyone in the raiding scene knows each other because there are so few guilds.

Judas Helviaryn

tinythinker wrote: »

squinceybones wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

- making major build and gear changes
- having extensive experience in PvP
- luck
- being able to quickly break free or dodge roll
- playing a particular class
- the availability of terrain features that may not always be available

Are you sure you aren't playing Pokémon? Aside from break free etc, these things aren't specific to ESO, they're just parts of a competitive environment. Change your deck, experience (you get better the more you play...whaaa??), luck sure there's a coin flip in Pokémon, playing a particular class? Water Pokémon beat fire Pokémon, doesn't mean fire can't win and it doesn't mean water is cheating, oh and terrain (ADAPAT!). If you really want to dumb it down half of these things apply to chess.

Yeah, good effort at being thoughtful.

He gave you a serious answer, making a solid point. I don't think you're the type of person to berate and disregard others who humor you, I hope you don't start now.

Vrienda

Animation cancelling needs to be removed. Beyond that I'm neutral.

Judas Helviaryn

IronCrystal wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

IronCrystal wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

MarbleQuiche wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

A good deal of counterplay involves SEEING what your opponent is doing and reacting to it. Hiding animation movements is not a "skill" when we discuss counterplay because it doesn't allow opponent to SEE what is happening and try to counter it.

So your statement about catering to the lowest common denominator doesn't fit here. Instead you're advocating for no counterplay as far as animation canceling is concerned.

But the skills you can do this on have already been broadcast when you cancel the animation. There's no counter to them, cancelled or not.

That begins a discussion on whether instant cast skills belong in a competitive and fair game. I can see the argument on why they don't belong and even agree, but I don't see such a fundamental design change happening. As such, I think ESO has to be accepted as mostly fun, sometimes unfair, but not somewhere that has the ruleset needed for players serious about testing themselves against one another.

Competivie?
Fair?

Those works shouldn't never be used to describe eso. The dev's choices and overall inadequacy has killed any motion of competitive and fair pvp in this game. Can even be said the same for pve.

While I agree that PvP isn't that fair, what makes you think PvE is unfair or competitive?

Bis Gear gated behind dlc's.

Stuff like world first clears were taken by a group which had access to the dlc 1 month before others.

The only competitive part of pve is trials and too a lesser extent vma.

Its quite hard for some people to get to the end game raiding stages because people already have their competitive raids.

I would only ever consider trials and vMA as the competitive parts of PvE. Dungeons aren't very competitive. If they were, there would be leaderboards.

As far as DLC gated gear...I don't know how I feel about it. I buy all the DLC and I agree that some BiS gear is DLC gated, but I feel like if you wanna be competitive you have to have the full game anyways.

As for people having difficulty getting to raiding stages that's not really true, they just don't want to put in the time and effort to not be carried by others. Plenty of guilds have casual runs and if you really stand out, then you'd be picked for top tier guilds. Literally everyone in the raiding scene knows each other because there are so few guilds.

You've got it right. Something I've noticed about people new to the PVE scene, is that most want to stand on the shoulders of giants. The raiding guilds.

What they don't realize, is that these guilds started from individual players who were, themselves, new at one point.

People need to understand, if they want something, they need to take the reigns, go out, and do it.

Start their own guild, find likeminded players, and learn to play with each other. Help each other grow, have fun, and become a content creator, rather than a consumer.

That takes effort though. Not everyone is willing to give that.

Anne_Firehawk

Animation canceling is not an issue, burst from stealth and procsets are. Adapt and invest time into getting better instead of moaning about something without trying. Inb4 edit again

[Edit to remove bait]

Vipstaakki

CyrusArya wrote: »

If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. While proc sets need to be toned down for sure, animation cancelling (which is a misnomer anyways I prefer weaving) is a skill available to anybody. Just because some people are new or inexperienced or whatever does not mean that the games skill ceiling needs to be brought down to accommodate them. You never cater to the lowest common denominator if its excellence you're pursuing.

Animation cancelling is not a skill. It is a bug.

Zendran

I can never understand people saying that you can't counterplay against skills that are being ani cancelled. Are we even playing the same game?

tinythinker

Judas Helviaryn wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

squinceybones wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

- making major build and gear changes
- having extensive experience in PvP
- luck
- being able to quickly break free or dodge roll
- playing a particular class
- the availability of terrain features that may not always be available

Are you sure you aren't playing Pokémon? Aside from break free etc, these things aren't specific to ESO, they're just parts of a competitive environment. Change your deck, experience (you get better the more you play...whaaa??), luck sure there's a coin flip in Pokémon, playing a particular class? Water Pokémon beat fire Pokémon, doesn't mean fire can't win and it doesn't mean water is cheating, oh and terrain (ADAPAT!). If you really want to dumb it down half of these things apply to chess.

Yeah, good effort at being thoughtful.

He gave you a serious answer, making a solid point. I don't think you're the type of person to berate and disregard others who humor you, I hope you don't start now.

Serious answer? Sure. OK. If you ignore the context before the part quoted, ignore the part after, ignore the two or three replies I made after the OP, and imply I have no concept or context for gaming, it's very serious.

I did not berate him, but I'm not going to repeat myself. I've posted and clarified what I hoped people would do in this thread. Instead they brought their own battles from other threads. The took the frame of reference from arguments they've had and want to keep going with them.

If people don't agree with me, fine, that's OK. I laid out how I think certain perpetual complaints are related to each other. Feel free to agree or not. I used the term counterplay in a loose way to make a point, that players want to know that there is an accessible way to make up for advantages other builds have or even that some players have. I don't have to agree with all of these complaints, and in fact I pointed out cases where I do not. I gave examples of simple changes that might help with some of these things, asked people to be open-minded and see things from other players' perspectives and offer their own constructive suggestions or criticisms.

If players think I've got the reasons for the complaints, the connections between the issues, or the approach to helping with all of this wrong, then by all means, point it out. Explain what the real issue is and what ZOS should do about it. That's great. If that happens, cool. If people just want to bring their baggage with them, well, I can't stop them. If I have come across as rude in some way, I humbly apologize.

exeeter702

Vrienda wrote: »

Animation cancelling needs to be removed. Beyond that I'm neutral.

You and those that agree with you dont actuallu understand what that would entail and how it would negatively effect this games combat in the bigger picture.

Vipstaakki wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. While proc sets need to be toned down for sure, animation cancelling (which is a misnomer anyways I prefer weaving) is a skill available to anybody. Just because some people are new or inexperienced or whatever does not mean that the games skill ceiling needs to be brought down to accommodate them. You never cater to the lowest common denominator if its excellence you're pursuing.

Animation cancelling is not a skill. It is a bug.

It is most definitely not a bug. It is the natural result of a very specific design choice used for this games combat system to maintain player agency and control when using reactive actions after skills resolve yet their recovery animations play out.

Zordrage

exeeter702 wrote: »

Vrienda wrote: »

Animation cancelling needs to be removed. Beyond that I'm neutral.

You and those that agree with you dont actuallu understand what that would entail and how it would negatively effect this games combat in the bigger picture.

Vipstaakki wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. While proc sets need to be toned down for sure, animation cancelling (which is a misnomer anyways I prefer weaving) is a skill available to anybody. Just because some people are new or inexperienced or whatever does not mean that the games skill ceiling needs to be brought down to accommodate them. You never cater to the lowest common denominator if its excellence you're pursuing.

Animation cancelling is not a skill. It is a bug.

It is most definitely not a bug. It is the natural result of a very specific design choice used for this games combat system to maintain player agency and control when using reactive actions after skills resolve yet their recovery animations play out.

well thats a load of BS right there...

i say NO to animation canceling..

its a bug allways was allways will be just devs dont know how to fix it so they stay silent on it forever....

agingerinohio

Delete

leepalmer95

Zoliru wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Vrienda wrote: »

Animation cancelling needs to be removed. Beyond that I'm neutral.

You and those that agree with you dont actuallu understand what that would entail and how it would negatively effect this games combat in the bigger picture.

Vipstaakki wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. While proc sets need to be toned down for sure, animation cancelling (which is a misnomer anyways I prefer weaving) is a skill available to anybody. Just because some people are new or inexperienced or whatever does not mean that the games skill ceiling needs to be brought down to accommodate them. You never cater to the lowest common denominator if its excellence you're pursuing.

Animation cancelling is not a skill. It is a bug.

It is most definitely not a bug. It is the natural result of a very specific design choice used for this games combat system to maintain player agency and control when using reactive actions after skills resolve yet their recovery animations play out.

well thats a load of BS right there...

i say NO to animation canceling..

its a bug allways was allways will be just devs dont know how to fix it so they stay silent on it forever....

The devs have already accepted it and now consider it a feature.

Treat it as a bug all your want, your loss.

Vanthras79

When people complain about cancelling these days, it would be patently false to say there is no counterplay or that they are dying to things they can't see. Rather they are just complain that the game is too fast paced.

Well I don't like it from a animation viewpoint more so than a gameplay viewpoint. It looks cheesy and unrealistic the way spells and abilities are hastened to add more damage per second by "animation canceling". Its to crazy to even watch.

MarzAttakz

sly007 wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. While proc sets need to be toned down for sure, animation cancelling (which is a misnomer anyways I prefer weaving) is a skill available to anybody. Just because some people are new or inexperienced or whatever does not mean that the games skill ceiling needs to be brought down to accommodate them. You never cater to the lowest common denominator of its excellence you're pursuing.

Weaving and animation canceling are different things. A player can weave light and heavy attacks between every ability but not all abilities can be animation cancelled for its effects or full effects. A player can weave and anmation cancel surprise attack, but dizzy swing (cast time ability) can only be weaved, not animation cancelled.

Then how did two consecutive recaps at 240 ping show crit rush, dizzy, cliff crapper, dizzy, dizzy, reverse slice when there were only two 2h's out of the three I was fighting? No light attack on the list, no heavy attack on the list. You know how long the wind-up on dizzy is of course? Alive, dead, recap as above, twice on NO-CP under 50?

Anyone saying it takes skill, I'll agree to an extent, all it really takes is good latency and anyone with worse latency has zero chance of counter-play.

There are reasons why the majority of games have a GCD-based skill system, firstly it's less taxing on the server, secondly it evens the latency playing field, thirdly it allows for telegraphed animations and counter-play. An MMO should never be a Moba, if that's what turns you on, then play one rather.

* this post isn't directed at the quotee

Vrienda

exeeter702 wrote: »

Vrienda wrote: »

Animation cancelling needs to be removed. Beyond that I'm neutral.

You and those that agree with you dont actuallu understand what that would entail and how it would negatively effect this games combat in the bigger picture.

Vipstaakki wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. While proc sets need to be toned down for sure, animation cancelling (which is a misnomer anyways I prefer weaving) is a skill available to anybody. Just because some people are new or inexperienced or whatever does not mean that the games skill ceiling needs to be brought down to accommodate them. You never cater to the lowest common denominator if its excellence you're pursuing.

Animation cancelling is not a skill. It is a bug.

It is most definitely not a bug. It is the natural result of a very specific design choice used for this games combat system to maintain player agency and control when using reactive actions after skills resolve yet their recovery animations play out.

So no unfair advantage over those who don't do it? A more fair and even playing field to help bridge the gaping skill gap in this game? How would that negatively affect the game?

Rohamad_Ali

All I see is people arguing over their point of view in this thread and all others like it . You can't animation cancel in Football . So I will go outside and score some goals . That game takes real skill .

SanTii.92

Have any of who complaining about proc set even set foot on the pts? Or just talking about past experience.

I've been dueling on the pts. Ext

SanTii.92

Vrienda wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Vrienda wrote: »

Animation cancelling needs to be removed. Beyond that I'm neutral.

You and those that agree with you dont actuallu understand what that would entail and how it would negatively effect this games combat in the bigger picture.

Vipstaakki wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. While proc sets need to be toned down for sure, animation cancelling (which is a misnomer anyways I prefer weaving) is a skill available to anybody. Just because some people are new or inexperienced or whatever does not mean that the games skill ceiling needs to be brought down to accommodate them. You never cater to the lowest common denominator if its excellence you're pursuing.

Animation cancelling is not a skill. It is a bug.

It is most definitely not a bug. It is the natural result of a very specific design choice used for this games combat system to maintain player agency and control when using reactive actions after skills resolve yet their recovery animations play out.

So no unfair advantage over those who don't do it? A more fair and even playing field to help bridge the gaping skill gap in this game? How would that negatively affect the game?

Why don't you ask Netherrealm studios to remove combos from mortal kombat? See how absurd that is, it's exactly what you are asking here.

SanTii.92

MarzAttakz wrote: »

sly007 wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. While proc sets need to be toned down for sure, animation cancelling (which is a misnomer anyways I prefer weaving) is a skill available to anybody. Just because some people are new or inexperienced or whatever does not mean that the games skill ceiling needs to be brought down to accommodate them. You never cater to the lowest common denominator of its excellence you're pursuing.

Weaving and animation canceling are different things. A player can weave light and heavy attacks between every ability but not all abilities can be animation cancelled for its effects or full effects. A player can weave and anmation cancel surprise attack, but dizzy swing (cast time ability) can only be weaved, not animation cancelled.

Then how did two consecutive recaps at 240 ping show crit rush, dizzy, cliff crapper, dizzy, dizzy, reverse slice when there were only two 2h's out of the three I was fighting? No light attack on the list, no heavy attack on the list. You know how long the wind-up on dizzy is of course? Alive, dead, recap as above, twice on NO-CP under 50?

Anyone saying it takes skill, I'll agree to an extent, all it really takes is good latency and anyone with worse latency has zero chance of counter-play.

There are reasons why the majority of games have a GCD-based skill system, firstly it's less taxing on the server, secondly it evens the latency playing field, thirdly it allows for telegraphed animations and counter-play. An MMO should never be a Moba, if that's what turns you on, then play one rather.

* this post isn't directed at the quotee

I also play with 250 ping and have no problems whatsoever on reacting to dizzy swing. You can't hide on that excuse.

Zordrage

SanTii.92 wrote: »

Vrienda wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Vrienda wrote: »

Animation cancelling needs to be removed. Beyond that I'm neutral.

You and those that agree with you dont actuallu understand what that would entail and how it would negatively effect this games combat in the bigger picture.

Vipstaakki wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. While proc sets need to be toned down for sure, animation cancelling (which is a misnomer anyways I prefer weaving) is a skill available to anybody. Just because some people are new or inexperienced or whatever does not mean that the games skill ceiling needs to be brought down to accommodate them. You never cater to the lowest common denominator if its excellence you're pursuing.

Animation cancelling is not a skill. It is a bug.

It is most definitely not a bug. It is the natural result of a very specific design choice used for this games combat system to maintain player agency and control when using reactive actions after skills resolve yet their recovery animations play out.

So no unfair advantage over those who don't do it? A more fair and even playing field to help bridge the gaping skill gap in this game? How would that negatively affect the game?

Why don't you ask Netherrealm studios to remove combos from mortal kombat? See how absurd that is, it's exactly what you are asking here.

no its not... not even close....

Zendran

We should just remove all skills and only allow light attacks to make a more fair and even playing field where actual skill at the game doesn't matter.

Zordrage

Zendran wrote: »

We should just remove all skills and only allow light attacks to make a more fair and even playing field where actual skill at the game doesn't matter.

you missed the point... totaly...

SanTii.92

Zoliru wrote: »

SanTii.92 wrote: »

Vrienda wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Vrienda wrote: »

Animation cancelling needs to be removed. Beyond that I'm neutral.

You and those that agree with you dont actuallu understand what that would entail and how it would negatively effect this games combat in the bigger picture.

Vipstaakki wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. While proc sets need to be toned down for sure, animation cancelling (which is a misnomer anyways I prefer weaving) is a skill available to anybody. Just because some people are new or inexperienced or whatever does not mean that the games skill ceiling needs to be brought down to accommodate them. You never cater to the lowest common denominator if its excellence you're pursuing.

Animation cancelling is not a skill. It is a bug.

It is most definitely not a bug. It is the natural result of a very specific design choice used for this games combat system to maintain player agency and control when using reactive actions after skills resolve yet their recovery animations play out.

So no unfair advantage over those who don't do it? A more fair and even playing field to help bridge the gaping skill gap in this game? How would that negatively affect the game?

Why don't you ask Netherrealm studios to remove combos from mortal kombat? See how absurd that is, it's exactly what you are asking here.

no its not... not even close....

Yeah, why not?

Dymence

So, in the spirit of the OP:

I can see and understand why animation cancelling might be problematic for some people.

Here's my suggestion on fixing it: learn to play.

Zordrage

SanTii.92 wrote: »

Zoliru wrote: »

SanTii.92 wrote: »

Vrienda wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Vrienda wrote: »

Animation cancelling needs to be removed. Beyond that I'm neutral.

You and those that agree with you dont actuallu understand what that would entail and how it would negatively effect this games combat in the bigger picture.

Vipstaakki wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. While proc sets need to be toned down for sure, animation cancelling (which is a misnomer anyways I prefer weaving) is a skill available to anybody. Just because some people are new or inexperienced or whatever does not mean that the games skill ceiling needs to be brought down to accommodate them. You never cater to the lowest common denominator if its excellence you're pursuing.

Animation cancelling is not a skill. It is a bug.

It is most definitely not a bug. It is the natural result of a very specific design choice used for this games combat system to maintain player agency and control when using reactive actions after skills resolve yet their recovery animations play out.

So no unfair advantage over those who don't do it? A more fair and even playing field to help bridge the gaping skill gap in this game? How would that negatively affect the game?

Why don't you ask Netherrealm studios to remove combos from mortal kombat? See how absurd that is, it's exactly what you are asking here.

no its not... not even close....

Yeah, why not?

because the game was DESIGNED around that..... Combos are the CORE of most fighting game....

Animation canceling is just a weird bug that mostly infesting asian MMORPGs
lol Zenimax didnt even know about it till they forum posts back then and instead of fixing it they took the lazy way and said its considered a feature now... funny how the never talk about it ever again tough.... it wasnt intended so its a bug.... a bug that is abused and makes your animations and characters look/feel derpy ( because the games combat was not designed around it was not intended to work like that obviously ) while giving you an unfair advantage... the whole thing just makes more balance issues and also add more unnecesary stress to commbat. that should not be there in the 1st place....

tinythinker

Dymence wrote: »

So, in the spirit of the OP:

I can see and understand why animation cancelling might be problematic for some people.

Here's my suggestion on fixing it: learn to play.

Yeah, this is about what I expected from these forums. And it's one of the most on topic replies, too.

---

I'm out. Have fun arguing over whatever you think this thread is about and practicing cub scout level trolling. I've got noobs to kill in Cyro.

MarzAttakz

SanTii.92 wrote: »

MarzAttakz wrote: »

sly007 wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. While proc sets need to be toned down for sure, animation cancelling (which is a misnomer anyways I prefer weaving) is a skill available to anybody. Just because some people are new or inexperienced or whatever does not mean that the games skill ceiling needs to be brought down to accommodate them. You never cater to the lowest common denominator of its excellence you're pursuing.

Weaving and animation canceling are different things. A player can weave light and heavy attacks between every ability but not all abilities can be animation cancelled for its effects or full effects. A player can weave and anmation cancel surprise attack, but dizzy swing (cast time ability) can only be weaved, not animation cancelled.

Then how did two consecutive recaps at 240 ping show crit rush, dizzy, cliff crapper, dizzy, dizzy, reverse slice when there were only two 2h's out of the three I was fighting? No light attack on the list, no heavy attack on the list. You know how long the wind-up on dizzy is of course? Alive, dead, recap as above, twice on NO-CP under 50?

Anyone saying it takes skill, I'll agree to an extent, all it really takes is good latency and anyone with worse latency has zero chance of counter-play.

There are reasons why the majority of games have a GCD-based skill system, firstly it's less taxing on the server, secondly it evens the latency playing field, thirdly it allows for telegraphed animations and counter-play. An MMO should never be a Moba, if that's what turns you on, then play one rather.

* this post isn't directed at the quotee

I also play with 250 ping and have no problems whatsoever on reacting to dizzy swing. You can't hide on that excuse.

Count the listed dizzy swings, I'll save you the trouble: 3 ... from 2 players in under 2 seconds along with the other skills listed. Now add up only the GCD, let's say for just one of players: 4 skills x 0.8seconds = 3.2seconds, that's not even including the animation length. This didn't happen once, it happened twice, by the same individuals in less than 5 seconds, more like 2.

What excuse are you hiding behind?