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Proc sets, animation canceling, etc. The debate is over counterplay.
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Judas Helviaryn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭@tinythinker
Look, you may think you were being equitable and fair to both sides of the discussion with your opening post, but I assure you it does not come across that way to those of us reading.
I've highlighted my observations to your statements in bold in the quote below, and I'd like you to see what we see.
As a disclaimer, this is purely an observation, and I have no intention of attacking you as a person. Your opinions are open to discussion.tinythinker wrote: »However you feel about proc sets and animation cancelling and similar hot button issues, keep in mind that the heart of these issues is a desire for what people think is fair counterplay.--This is appealing to both sides.
You may think it already exists, and that's your opinion, but try to see it from the perspective of those who disagree. --This is appealing to those who want more counterplay.
For example, does your idea of counterplay rely on one or more the following: --This is appealing to those who want more counterplay.
- making major build and gear changes
- having extensive experience in PvP
- luck
- being able to quickly break free or dodge roll
- playing a particular class
- the availability of terrain features that may not always be available
If so, keep in mind that your counterplay suggestion isn't broadly equitable. People who have less time or help farming gear, who are new, who have slower machines or internet connections, etc, etc, won't find it as easy to use those counters. --This is appealing to those who want more counterplay.
This isn't an argument for or against nerfing or removing anything from the game, but an appeal to try to appreciate that we all have different capacities and experiences and everyone wants to think that they have a reasonably level playing field. --This is appealing to both sides.
For example, a gear set that has a chance to counter proc sets in some way would be great for PvP, still gives a chance for proc sets to be useful, and doesn't require nerfs that hurt PvE play. --This is still appealing to those who want more counterplay.
An ability that anyone can get that interrupts or stuns someone when you are attacked, like the Sorc ability, gives a chance for a player to to fight back against rapid-kill gank builds. --This is still appealing to those who want more counterplay.
And so on.
There are ways to fix these issues without having to insult each other or simply quit a part of the game (or the game itself). --This is appealing to those who want more counterplay, and implying that we need more counterplay, calling these "issues".
Share your ideas and explain why you think it helps level the playing field for everyone (which makes skill matter more, right?). --This is asking for people to pitch in on what would create more counterplay, implying that we aren't already on a level playing field.
What I see from this, is you opening and appealing to both sides of the discussion, immediately appealing to the side that doesn't want more counterplay/believes these sets and animation cancelling are not the issue; Proceeding to add a disclaimer at the second fair-seeming sentence, and immediately going back to appealing only to the side that doesn't want more counterplay.
Why I've broken this down for you, is because I want you see that from our perspective, you are solely making an appeal to one side only, while claiming to appeal to both.
Actions speak louder than words.
This is why you got the responses you did. Please don't run away from that.Edited by Judas Helviaryn on July 24, 2017 2:16AM1 -
Countcalorie✭✭✭animation cancelling leads to some moves being unbreakable cc's.no counterplay to that as you cant break free from an incap thats been animation canceled folled by the 1-3 reverse slices that has no animation at all.I'm quite sick of it.1 -
Zendran✭✭✭Countcalorie wrote: »animation cancelling leads to some moves being unbreakable cc's.no counterplay to that as you cant break free from an incap thats been animation canceled folled by the 1-3 reverse slices that has no animation at all.I'm quite sick of it.
What? If that were true, people would be in an uproar. But it's not. It's just a simple fact that the game bugs out sometimes and you can't break a cc. Frustrating, yes. But it happens to everyone. Sometimes things go through block with full stamina pool, sometimes you can't break a cc, etc etc. Bugs happen, but that's not connecting to animation canceling.1 -
Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Countcalorie wrote: »animation cancelling leads to some moves being unbreakable cc's.no counterplay to that as you cant break free from an incap thats been animation canceled folled by the 1-3 reverse slices that has no animation at all.I'm quite sick of it.
What? If that were true, people would be in an uproar. But it's not. It's just a simple fact that the game bugs out sometimes and you can't break a cc. Frustrating, yes. But it happens to everyone. Sometimes things go through block with full stamina pool, sometimes you can't break a cc, etc etc. Bugs happen, but that's not connecting to animation canceling.
But he's implying that the bugs wouldn't result in auto death if an opponent couldn't have access to 3 damaging effects occuring during a single gcd.
I'm not against animation cancelling, I'm against people saying there's counter "play"
There is counter builds, but not counter play.
Low resistance, non proc Stam builds are just not viable0 -
Countcalorie✭✭✭Countcalorie wrote: »animation cancelling leads to some moves being unbreakable cc's.no counterplay to that as you cant break free from an incap thats been animation canceled folled by the 1-3 reverse slices that has no animation at all.I'm quite sick of it.
What? If that were true, people would be in an uproar. But it's not. It's just a simple fact that the game bugs out sometimes and you can't break a cc. Frustrating, yes. But it happens to everyone. Sometimes things go through block with full stamina pool, sometimes you can't break a cc, etc etc. Bugs happen, but that's not connecting to animation canceling.
I can confirm when you do it properly its always an unbreakable cc.Maybe you should fight Nightblades who know what there doing.If you cant find anybody come to xbox eu and i'll get someone to show you.0 -
Zendran✭✭✭Countcalorie wrote: »Countcalorie wrote: »animation cancelling leads to some moves being unbreakable cc's.no counterplay to that as you cant break free from an incap thats been animation canceled folled by the 1-3 reverse slices that has no animation at all.I'm quite sick of it.
What? If that were true, people would be in an uproar. But it's not. It's just a simple fact that the game bugs out sometimes and you can't break a cc. Frustrating, yes. But it happens to everyone. Sometimes things go through block with full stamina pool, sometimes you can't break a cc, etc etc. Bugs happen, but that's not connecting to animation canceling.
I can confirm when you do it properly its always an unbreakable cc.Maybe you should fight Nightblades who know what there doing.If you cant find anybody come to xbox eu and i'll get someone to show you.
Maybe this is a platform issue, but this is 100% not a thing for PC. I've been playing this game for years, and unbreakable ccs bugs have been around for a long, long time now for pretty much every CC skill.
Also, thanks for assuming I somehow never play against good players.Edited by Zendran on July 24, 2017 2:52AM0 -
SanTii.92✭✭✭✭✭
✭
That's all you got? Cause it allegedly wasn't designed, please. You know nothing about what was designed or intended except the same shady assertions that are been thrown over here since forever with nothing to backup.
Yeah, why not?
Why don't you ask Netherrealm studios to remove combos from mortal kombat? See how absurd that is, it's exactly what you are asking here.exeeter702 wrote: »Animation cancelling needs to be removed. Beyond that I'm neutral.
You and those that agree with you dont actuallu understand what that would entail and how it would negatively effect this games combat in the bigger picture.Vipstaakki wrote: »If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. While proc sets need to be toned down for sure, animation cancelling (which is a misnomer anyways I prefer weaving) is a skill available to anybody. Just because some people are new or inexperienced or whatever does not mean that the games skill ceiling needs to be brought down to accommodate them. You never cater to the lowest common denominator if its excellence you're pursuing.
Animation cancelling is not a skill. It is a bug.
It is most definitely not a bug. It is the natural result of a very specific design choice used for this games combat system to maintain player agency and control when using reactive actions after skills resolve yet their recovery animations play out.
So no unfair advantage over those who don't do it? A more fair and even playing field to help bridge the gaping skill gap in this game? How would that negatively affect the game?
no its not... not even close....
because the game was DESIGNED around that..... Combos are the CORE of most fighting game....
Animation canceling is just a weird bug that mostly infesting asian MMORPGs
lol Zenimax didnt even know about it till they forum posts back then and instead of fixing it they took the lazy way and said its considered a feature now... funny how the never talk about it ever again tough.... it wasnt intended so its a bug.... a bug that is abused and makes your animations and characters look/feel derpy ( because the games combat was not designed around it was not intended to work like that obviously ) while giving you an unfair advantage... the whole thing just makes more balance issues and also add more unnecesary stress to commbat. that should not be there in the 1st place....
All you know, all that matters is zos current stance on this and it is pretty clear.
So nope, no difference whatsoever with how mortal kombat, or league legends handles it. There is no fundamental, objective reason why animation cancelling shouldn't be a thing. Only your opinions which to me are honestly worthless, sorry. If you ever come up with actual reasons why it's detrimental to the game and should be changed then maybe we can discuss it.When the snows fall and the white winds blow,
the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives.
Arg | Pc Na | Factionless Mag Warden.0 -
Countcalorie✭✭✭Countcalorie wrote: »Countcalorie wrote: »animation cancelling leads to some moves being unbreakable cc's.no counterplay to that as you cant break free from an incap thats been animation canceled folled by the 1-3 reverse slices that has no animation at all.I'm quite sick of it.
What? If that were true, people would be in an uproar. But it's not. It's just a simple fact that the game bugs out sometimes and you can't break a cc. Frustrating, yes. But it happens to everyone. Sometimes things go through block with full stamina pool, sometimes you can't break a cc, etc etc. Bugs happen, but that's not connecting to animation canceling.
I can confirm when you do it properly its always an unbreakable cc.Maybe you should fight Nightblades who know what there doing.If you cant find anybody come to xbox eu and i'll get someone to show you.
Maybe this is a platform issue, but this is 100% not a thing for PC. I've been playing this game for years, and unbreakable ccs bugs have been around for a long, long time now for pretty much every CC skill.
Also, thanks for assuming I somehow never play against good players.
I probably shouldn't of worded it like that sorry, Im just extremely fustrated and exhausted.go on Xbox Eu only people that play during Australian time (other then us aussies) are the "good" players.usual pvp experience: against a Mag sorc with Maw skin, he wipes group of five to ten people then teabags,duel them and beat them=message spam telling you to kill yourself.Stamblade=get beaten in a duel:guy runs around saying gf(get ***) after teabagging. Beat them?have 5-10 people message you to kill yourself.I have not had a worse experience in any online community which is why I will always be pushing for server transfers.also completely unrelated your not allowed to rp on eu otherwise you'll get swarmed by all the "good" players spouting ***.The Xbox Eu server is ruined thanks to its community.0 -
Countcalorie✭✭✭
That's all you got? Cause it allegedly wasn't designed, please. You know nothing about what was designed or intended except the same shady assertions that are been thrown over here since forever with nothing to backup.
Yeah, why not?
Why don't you ask Netherrealm studios to remove combos from mortal kombat? See how absurd that is, it's exactly what you are asking here.exeeter702 wrote: »Animation cancelling needs to be removed. Beyond that I'm neutral.
You and those that agree with you dont actuallu understand what that would entail and how it would negatively effect this games combat in the bigger picture.Vipstaakki wrote: »If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. While proc sets need to be toned down for sure, animation cancelling (which is a misnomer anyways I prefer weaving) is a skill available to anybody. Just because some people are new or inexperienced or whatever does not mean that the games skill ceiling needs to be brought down to accommodate them. You never cater to the lowest common denominator if its excellence you're pursuing.
Animation cancelling is not a skill. It is a bug.
It is most definitely not a bug. It is the natural result of a very specific design choice used for this games combat system to maintain player agency and control when using reactive actions after skills resolve yet their recovery animations play out.
So no unfair advantage over those who don't do it? A more fair and even playing field to help bridge the gaping skill gap in this game? How would that negatively affect the game?
no its not... not even close....
because the game was DESIGNED around that..... Combos are the CORE of most fighting game....
Animation canceling is just a weird bug that mostly infesting asian MMORPGs
lol Zenimax didnt even know about it till they forum posts back then and instead of fixing it they took the lazy way and said its considered a feature now... funny how the never talk about it ever again tough.... it wasnt intended so its a bug.... a bug that is abused and makes your animations and characters look/feel derpy ( because the games combat was not designed around it was not intended to work like that obviously ) while giving you an unfair advantage... the whole thing just makes more balance issues and also add more unnecesary stress to commbat. that should not be there in the 1st place....
All you know, all that matters is zos current stance on this and it is pretty clear.
So nope, no difference whatsoever with how mortal kombat, or league legends handles it. There is no fundamental, objective reason why animation cancelling shouldn't be a thing. Only your opinions which to me are honestly worthless, sorry. If you ever come up with actual reasons why it's detrimental to the game and should be changed then maybe we can discuss it.
1.gives people with good internet an extreme advantage.2.doesn't require much skill just good internet connection. 3.game would be easier for new players(pretty sure the devs want it to be like this).4. will be easier to balance due to having less combat situations.5. no unbreakable CC's followed by 2 reverse slices with no animation.0 -
Dr.NRG✭✭✭✭The animation cancelling is not the problem its the proc set and poisons on top of it. Take cancelling away and the combat will be so dumbed down with no skil requirement that hundreds of ppl will quit. Its bad enough with the proc and poisons meta atm taking almost all skilled gameplay away.
The game is moving in the wrong direction with combat through not requiring ppl to learn much about it anymore and dumbing it down to no cp and choice of sets. Take cancelling away, you might as well get rid of pvp entirely.
It is so f***g frustrating when you take the time to get good in pvp and are able to consider yourself in the top 10% when after every new patch your aint getting better while noobs getting stronger and stronger by just slapping on procs and poisons.
Animation cancelling is good for the game suggesting otherwise you are probably too lazy to learn it or do not understand game mechanics and thus one should not complain about it, go learn it or stay away from pvp. No offense guys but is simply how it is.
Everyone can learn it it is not that hard and once you got it down you gain a vertical progression again through getting better and more skilled using it at right moment, with the right skills and right combo!!
We need more things like it to give gamers a chance to become better without using cheese..0 -
Countcalorie✭✭✭
good internet doesn't = skill.The animation cancelling is not the problem its the proc set and poisons on top of it. Take cancelling away and the combat will be so dumbed down with no skil requirement that hundreds of ppl will quit. Its bad enough with the proc and poisons meta atm taking almost all skilled gameplay away.
The game is moving in the wrong direction with combat through not requiring ppl to learn much about it anymore and dumbing it down to no cp and choice of sets. Take cancelling away, you might as well get rid of pvp entirely.
It is so f***g frustrating when you take the time to get good in pvp and are able to consider yourself in the top 10% when after every new patch your aint getting better while noobs getting stronger and stronger by just slapping on procs and poisons.
Animation cancelling is good for the game suggesting otherwise you are probably too lazy to learn it or do not understand game mechanics and thus one should not complain about it, go learn it or stay away from pvp. No offense guys but is simply how it is.
Everyone can learn it it is not that hard and once you got it down you gain a vertical progression again through getting better and more skilled using it at right moment, with the right skills and right combo!!
We need more things like it to give gamers a chance to become better without using cheese.
no where in the tutorial or an part of the game teach you about animation cancelling.You have to find out about it yourself.Its extremely easy to do the only requirement is good internet. the devs don't want the game to be dominated by a small group of people.more new people is more money for them and higher population for us.If you cant counter people spaming one ability like snipe or cliff racer your doing something wrong.procblades on the other hand are a different story.
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SanTii.92✭✭✭✭✭
✭Countcalorie wrote: »
That's all you got? Cause it allegedly wasn't designed, please. You know nothing about what was designed or intended except the same shady assertions that are been thrown over here since forever with nothing to backup.
Yeah, why not?
Why don't you ask Netherrealm studios to remove combos from mortal kombat? See how absurd that is, it's exactly what you are asking here.exeeter702 wrote: »Animation cancelling needs to be removed. Beyond that I'm neutral.
You and those that agree with you dont actuallu understand what that would entail and how it would negatively effect this games combat in the bigger picture.Vipstaakki wrote: »If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. While proc sets need to be toned down for sure, animation cancelling (which is a misnomer anyways I prefer weaving) is a skill available to anybody. Just because some people are new or inexperienced or whatever does not mean that the games skill ceiling needs to be brought down to accommodate them. You never cater to the lowest common denominator if its excellence you're pursuing.
Animation cancelling is not a skill. It is a bug.
It is most definitely not a bug. It is the natural result of a very specific design choice used for this games combat system to maintain player agency and control when using reactive actions after skills resolve yet their recovery animations play out.
So no unfair advantage over those who don't do it? A more fair and even playing field to help bridge the gaping skill gap in this game? How would that negatively affect the game?
no its not... not even close....
because the game was DESIGNED around that..... Combos are the CORE of most fighting game....
Animation canceling is just a weird bug that mostly infesting asian MMORPGs
lol Zenimax didnt even know about it till they forum posts back then and instead of fixing it they took the lazy way and said its considered a feature now... funny how the never talk about it ever again tough.... it wasnt intended so its a bug.... a bug that is abused and makes your animations and characters look/feel derpy ( because the games combat was not designed around it was not intended to work like that obviously ) while giving you an unfair advantage... the whole thing just makes more balance issues and also add more unnecesary stress to commbat. that should not be there in the 1st place....
All you know, all that matters is zos current stance on this and it is pretty clear.
So nope, no difference whatsoever with how mortal kombat, or league legends handles it. There is no fundamental, objective reason why animation cancelling shouldn't be a thing. Only your opinions which to me are honestly worthless, sorry. If you ever come up with actual reasons why it's detrimental to the game and should be changed then maybe we can discuss it.
1.gives people with good internet an extreme advantage.2.doesn't require much skill just good internet connection. 3.game would be easier for new players(pretty sure the devs want it to be like this).4. will be easier to balance due to having less combat situations.5. no unbreakable CC's followed by 2 reverse slices with no animation.
1&2. "extreme" is by far an overstatement. I play with 250 ping and compete just fine with everyone. Better ping will always have the upper hand anyways, maybe if that's such an issue to you, you should try playing chess online.Countcalorie wrote: »
That's all you got? Cause it allegedly wasn't designed, please. You know nothing about what was designed or intended except the same shady assertions that are been thrown over here since forever with nothing to backup.
Yeah, why not?
Why don't you ask Netherrealm studios to remove combos from mortal kombat? See how absurd that is, it's exactly what you are asking here.exeeter702 wrote: »Animation cancelling needs to be removed. Beyond that I'm neutral.
You and those that agree with you dont actuallu understand what that would entail and how it would negatively effect this games combat in the bigger picture.Vipstaakki wrote: »If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. While proc sets need to be toned down for sure, animation cancelling (which is a misnomer anyways I prefer weaving) is a skill available to anybody. Just because some people are new or inexperienced or whatever does not mean that the games skill ceiling needs to be brought down to accommodate them. You never cater to the lowest common denominator if its excellence you're pursuing.
Animation cancelling is not a skill. It is a bug.
It is most definitely not a bug. It is the natural result of a very specific design choice used for this games combat system to maintain player agency and control when using reactive actions after skills resolve yet their recovery animations play out.
So no unfair advantage over those who don't do it? A more fair and even playing field to help bridge the gaping skill gap in this game? How would that negatively affect the game?
no its not... not even close....
because the game was DESIGNED around that..... Combos are the CORE of most fighting game....
Animation canceling is just a weird bug that mostly infesting asian MMORPGs
lol Zenimax didnt even know about it till they forum posts back then and instead of fixing it they took the lazy way and said its considered a feature now... funny how the never talk about it ever again tough.... it wasnt intended so its a bug.... a bug that is abused and makes your animations and characters look/feel derpy ( because the games combat was not designed around it was not intended to work like that obviously ) while giving you an unfair advantage... the whole thing just makes more balance issues and also add more unnecesary stress to commbat. that should not be there in the 1st place....
All you know, all that matters is zos current stance on this and it is pretty clear.
So nope, no difference whatsoever with how mortal kombat, or league legends handles it. There is no fundamental, objective reason why animation cancelling shouldn't be a thing. Only your opinions which to me are honestly worthless, sorry. If you ever come up with actual reasons why it's detrimental to the game and should be changed then maybe we can discuss it.
1.gives people with good internet an extreme advantage.2.doesn't require much skill just good internet connection. 3.game would be easier for new players(pretty sure the devs want it to be like this).4. will be easier to balance due to having less combat situations.5. no unbreakable CC's followed by 2 reverse slices with no animation.
3. animation cancelled is mot necessary whatsoever for new players. Enough said.
4. Why stop there. Why don't we play rock, paper and scissors. Pretty sure that's easier to balance too.
5. Just a bug which rarely happens.
Combat mechanics. The only feature universally praised by reviewers, yet over here is treated like the seed of all evil.
Animation cancelling, one of the few mechanics that rewards proper play, yet it's called unfair. Go ahead and take it off for all that matters. But rest assure The best players will still be the best, and you will still get one shotd.When the snows fall and the white winds blow,
the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives.
Arg | Pc Na | Factionless Mag Warden.1 -
exeeter702✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »Animation cancelling needs to be removed. Beyond that I'm neutral.
You and those that agree with you dont actuallu understand what that would entail and how it would negatively effect this games combat in the bigger picture.Vipstaakki wrote: »If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. While proc sets need to be toned down for sure, animation cancelling (which is a misnomer anyways I prefer weaving) is a skill available to anybody. Just because some people are new or inexperienced or whatever does not mean that the games skill ceiling needs to be brought down to accommodate them. You never cater to the lowest common denominator if its excellence you're pursuing.
Animation cancelling is not a skill. It is a bug.
It is most definitely not a bug. It is the natural result of a very specific design choice used for this games combat system to maintain player agency and control when using reactive actions after skills resolve yet their recovery animations play out.
well thats a load of BS right there...
i say NO to animation canceling..
its a bug allways was allways will be just devs dont know how to fix it so they stay silent on it forever....
What exactly do you want them to fix? Are you suggesting they re animate every skill in the game to execute, resolve and recover visually within 1 second? Because that is precicely what you are asking for.
This was my point, i dont believe you understand what is really going on here. A very diliberate decision was made for this game to allow players at any given time to react with a block, dodge roll, weapon swap, or bash so long as you are not commiting to a cast time skill or channel ability (which in that case rightfully so breaks the channeled skill and the cast time skill will not resolve). This was made so player agency is at the forefront of combat and players are not stuck rooted in animations after an ability resolves and they need to react to something else.
You can shrink all abilities to fully animate within the gcd but that would be downright ridiculous.
Please... really stop and think about it. If i activate an instant cast ability like suprise attack, which registers within 1 second, and the criteria for the ability to connect is met ie a valid target is in range, the ability then resolves, damage is delt or dodged etc etc. Should i at that moment not be permitted to take a defensive action like block? In case i see a snipe about to hit me? Should i be forced to wait out the entirety of suprise attacks recovery animation even though i have successfully used the skill?.
You can only mask the recovery animation of instant cast abilities that would resolve in that second regardless. There is no counterplay because there is nothing to counter. This is why everything that can actually be reacted to has a telegraph, projectile speed or a cast time attached to it.
This is the problem that comes from threads like these, it brings out the absolute worst people that ostensibly have no true understanding as to why "animation cancelling" exists and why the devs are generally fine with it. You have a varying bunch of people that come here and scream about animation canceling results in being able to squeez 5 unique abilities into a second. Or how macroes with animation canceling creates a grotesque advantage, how light attack weaving is animation canceling and how doing so allows players to circumvent the gcd strictly designed in this game. All of those are nonsense and objectively false.Edited by exeeter702 on July 24, 2017 4:11AM2 -
Countcalorie✭✭✭3.Animation cancelling is a necessity right now on any stambuild and should be taught in game via tutorials as well as weaving.
2.No thanks I'm fine beating people with my warden in 1v1s.I could do without the hatemail but thats the Eu community.
4.lol the rock paper scissor idea.I actually had an Idea that each class should have a clear counter to another class an so on.this would introduce skill being involved when facing your classes counter.this would be a semblance to balance.
animation cancel rewards internet connection not "proper play" it was also an unintentional side effect from the way the game was made.they couldn't fix it without remaking the game and so after announcing it as a bug the then changed there minds and started calling it a "feature".I have no delusions,animation cancelling is here to stay unfortunately.but it does not require much skill at all.
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GeorgeBlack✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Ye... in most games damage to a target is dealt after the character finishes performing an ability (some abilities are quicker than others). If the caster decides to cancel the ability by blocking or dodging, the ability doesn't register damage.
Such combat is reactive.
In eso the build which can go quicker from SOLID DEFENCE to BURST DMG wins. Everybody can do it. It takes no skill.
1vX is lame in this game since a solid defence mode from ONE player mitigates damage from X players and then somehow the ONE player has enough stats/resources to burst down a target. Cheese combat cheese builds.
Animation cancelling will not be removed unless the whole combat model is changed for the better. In the mean time people spend money at the cash shop and don't care about much else, so... unless we find something better to do we will have a bit of fun in ESO.
That's my take on one of the flawed aspects of combat in ESO. There are so much more.
The mistake was taking an RPG combat system and trying to implement it in a mmorpg with PvP.
To all those asking for AC to be removed (like I do as well), don't bother. It needs a complete combat overhaul since Animations are just cosmetic and people are ok with it (so bad.... just so bad...)Edited by GeorgeBlack on July 24, 2017 4:55AM2 -
GeorgeBlack✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Just imagine if a game like ESO had the combat mechanics (not skill copy paste) of other top mmorpg games. I really want to mention a few but that a jerk move and I won't do it. The good PvP players can go ahead and list them if they want.
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Dymence✭✭✭✭✭
✭tinythinker wrote: »So, in the spirit of the OP:
I can see and understand why animation cancelling might be problematic for some people.
Here's my suggestion on fixing it: learn to play.
Yeah, this is about what I expected from these forums. And it's one of the most on topic replies, too.
---
I'm out. Have fun arguing over whatever you think this thread is about and practicing cub scout level trolling. I've got noobs to kill in Cyro.
This is literally all there is to it, though. I'm pretty sick and tired of the discussions surrounding animation cancelling about how it's supposed to be an 'issue' or 'cheating' or whatnot. The misconceptions regarding the entire thing are real.
Animation cancelling is an absolute MUST for a fast paced game like ESO, simply to make the combat as fluid as possible. And animation cancelling is only possible on instant cast skills. Take the incapacitate ultimate from nightblades. You really think seeing the animation is going to make it possible for you to dodge it? Don't make me laugh. Reaction time doesn't work that fast.
PVP is all about reading into your opponent, knowing their combos and making educated guesses on what you're supposed to dodge/block. Animation cancelling has no effect on any of this. And as long as you don't dodgeroll cancel skills, you will still see the startup animation of the skills. A while back ZOS went over it and made every skill animation faster in order for more of the actual animation to display before being cancelled off.
The topic is done and through, the only remaining answer is learn to play. Removing it or fixing otherwise WILL impair combat fluidity and in the end simply cater to the potatoes.Edited by Dymence on July 24, 2017 8:13AM0 -
alainjbrennanb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭i think break free should not be from stamina, since most magicka users only hve 8-10k stamina which means only 1 or 2 times they can break free, i think it should come from their highest resource, and also not allow marco'sMain character dk - Vanikifar whitestrike0
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Wreuntzylla✭✭✭✭✭
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I think weaving just refers to 'weaving' light attacks into your rotation. Calling block or weapon swap cancelling 'weaving' doesn't really make much sense, in terms of the definition of 'weave'.
As someone who 'animation cancels' defensive abilities much more than offensive abilities, I see it as stringing abilities together in the most fluid manner for seamless gameplay. But I do see your point. I just don't like the term animation cancelling because ZOS literally changed the mechanics of the game so that you couldn't 'hide' abilities any more. You see everything now. The only thing you can cancel are instant cast skills, which means you aren't actually bypassing any mechanics or animations since the skill is supposed to fire the instant its pressed. When people complain about cancelling these days, it would be patently false to say there is no counterplay or that they are dying to things they can't see. Rather they are just complain that the game is too fast paced.
I love animation cancelling reflect so the wings never show. What was that you said about patently false?0 -
Br1ckst0n✭✭✭MarbleQuiche wrote: »When you get hit by the same skill from the same person 5 times within a fraction of a second, that's not animation cancelling. Nobody, not even Usain Bolt with his Virgin fibre optics, is that fast.
That's cheating.
Are there any videos out there that show animation cancelling giving an unfair advantage? I'd love to see them because I don't recall ever being on the end of such a situation myself.
Cheating? Sure been the victim of that a few times. Are people maybe getting these two things muddled up?
Thats more likely to be lag from my experience.Offtank of the year 20160 -
Zordrage✭✭✭✭✭
That's all you got? Cause it allegedly wasn't designed, please. You know nothing about what was designed or intended except the same shady assertions that are been thrown over here since forever with nothing to backup.
Yeah, why not?
Why don't you ask Netherrealm studios to remove combos from mortal kombat? See how absurd that is, it's exactly what you are asking here.exeeter702 wrote: »Animation cancelling needs to be removed. Beyond that I'm neutral.
You and those that agree with you dont actuallu understand what that would entail and how it would negatively effect this games combat in the bigger picture.Vipstaakki wrote: »If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. While proc sets need to be toned down for sure, animation cancelling (which is a misnomer anyways I prefer weaving) is a skill available to anybody. Just because some people are new or inexperienced or whatever does not mean that the games skill ceiling needs to be brought down to accommodate them. You never cater to the lowest common denominator if its excellence you're pursuing.
Animation cancelling is not a skill. It is a bug.
It is most definitely not a bug. It is the natural result of a very specific design choice used for this games combat system to maintain player agency and control when using reactive actions after skills resolve yet their recovery animations play out.
So no unfair advantage over those who don't do it? A more fair and even playing field to help bridge the gaping skill gap in this game? How would that negatively affect the game?
no its not... not even close....
because the game was DESIGNED around that..... Combos are the CORE of most fighting game....
Animation canceling is just a weird bug that mostly infesting asian MMORPGs
lol Zenimax didnt even know about it till they forum posts back then and instead of fixing it they took the lazy way and said its considered a feature now... funny how the never talk about it ever again tough.... it wasnt intended so its a bug.... a bug that is abused and makes your animations and characters look/feel derpy ( because the games combat was not designed around it was not intended to work like that obviously ) while giving you an unfair advantage... the whole thing just makes more balance issues and also add more unnecesary stress to commbat. that should not be there in the 1st place....
All you know, all that matters is zos current stance on this and it is pretty clear.
So nope, no difference whatsoever with how mortal kombat, or league legends handles it. There is no fundamental, objective reason why animation cancelling shouldn't be a thing. Only your opinions which to me are honestly worthless, sorry. If you ever come up with actual reasons why it's detrimental to the game and should be changed then maybe we can discuss it.
sir your blind..... and you need to stop defending this crap like a madman.....
what i said are facts why you say ? well because devs DID NOT KNOW about animation canceling means its a side product that was not intended means its bassicaly a bug.... devs just said Okay it stays now after people showed them...
by this its a fact its a bug lol0 -
Qbiken✭✭✭✭✭
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That's all you got? Cause it allegedly wasn't designed, please. You know nothing about what was designed or intended except the same shady assertions that are been thrown over here since forever with nothing to backup.
Yeah, why not?
Why don't you ask Netherrealm studios to remove combos from mortal kombat? See how absurd that is, it's exactly what you are asking here.exeeter702 wrote: »Animation cancelling needs to be removed. Beyond that I'm neutral.
You and those that agree with you dont actuallu understand what that would entail and how it would negatively effect this games combat in the bigger picture.Vipstaakki wrote: »If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. While proc sets need to be toned down for sure, animation cancelling (which is a misnomer anyways I prefer weaving) is a skill available to anybody. Just because some people are new or inexperienced or whatever does not mean that the games skill ceiling needs to be brought down to accommodate them. You never cater to the lowest common denominator if its excellence you're pursuing.
Animation cancelling is not a skill. It is a bug.
It is most definitely not a bug. It is the natural result of a very specific design choice used for this games combat system to maintain player agency and control when using reactive actions after skills resolve yet their recovery animations play out.
So no unfair advantage over those who don't do it? A more fair and even playing field to help bridge the gaping skill gap in this game? How would that negatively affect the game?
no its not... not even close....
because the game was DESIGNED around that..... Combos are the CORE of most fighting game....
Animation canceling is just a weird bug that mostly infesting asian MMORPGs
lol Zenimax didnt even know about it till they forum posts back then and instead of fixing it they took the lazy way and said its considered a feature now... funny how the never talk about it ever again tough.... it wasnt intended so its a bug.... a bug that is abused and makes your animations and characters look/feel derpy ( because the games combat was not designed around it was not intended to work like that obviously ) while giving you an unfair advantage... the whole thing just makes more balance issues and also add more unnecesary stress to commbat. that should not be there in the 1st place....
All you know, all that matters is zos current stance on this and it is pretty clear.
So nope, no difference whatsoever with how mortal kombat, or league legends handles it. There is no fundamental, objective reason why animation cancelling shouldn't be a thing. Only your opinions which to me are honestly worthless, sorry. If you ever come up with actual reasons why it's detrimental to the game and should be changed then maybe we can discuss it.
sir your blind..... and you need to stop defending this crap like a madman.....
what i said are facts why you say ? well because devs DID NOT KNOW about animation canceling means its a side product that was not intended means its bassicaly a bug.... devs just said Okay it stays now after people showed them...
by this its a fact its a bug lol
Doesn´t matter if it´s a bug or not. As long as the devs accept it as a part of the game and allows it (there´re official statements about it, just to lazy to link the video) these discussion on the forums are pointless. Like it: use it. Don´t like it: Then don´t use it.0 -
Zordrage✭✭✭✭✭
That's all you got? Cause it allegedly wasn't designed, please. You know nothing about what was designed or intended except the same shady assertions that are been thrown over here since forever with nothing to backup.
Yeah, why not?
Why don't you ask Netherrealm studios to remove combos from mortal kombat? See how absurd that is, it's exactly what you are asking here.exeeter702 wrote: »Animation cancelling needs to be removed. Beyond that I'm neutral.
You and those that agree with you dont actuallu understand what that would entail and how it would negatively effect this games combat in the bigger picture.Vipstaakki wrote: »If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. While proc sets need to be toned down for sure, animation cancelling (which is a misnomer anyways I prefer weaving) is a skill available to anybody. Just because some people are new or inexperienced or whatever does not mean that the games skill ceiling needs to be brought down to accommodate them. You never cater to the lowest common denominator if its excellence you're pursuing.
Animation cancelling is not a skill. It is a bug.
It is most definitely not a bug. It is the natural result of a very specific design choice used for this games combat system to maintain player agency and control when using reactive actions after skills resolve yet their recovery animations play out.
So no unfair advantage over those who don't do it? A more fair and even playing field to help bridge the gaping skill gap in this game? How would that negatively affect the game?
no its not... not even close....
because the game was DESIGNED around that..... Combos are the CORE of most fighting game....
Animation canceling is just a weird bug that mostly infesting asian MMORPGs
lol Zenimax didnt even know about it till they forum posts back then and instead of fixing it they took the lazy way and said its considered a feature now... funny how the never talk about it ever again tough.... it wasnt intended so its a bug.... a bug that is abused and makes your animations and characters look/feel derpy ( because the games combat was not designed around it was not intended to work like that obviously ) while giving you an unfair advantage... the whole thing just makes more balance issues and also add more unnecesary stress to commbat. that should not be there in the 1st place....
All you know, all that matters is zos current stance on this and it is pretty clear.
So nope, no difference whatsoever with how mortal kombat, or league legends handles it. There is no fundamental, objective reason why animation cancelling shouldn't be a thing. Only your opinions which to me are honestly worthless, sorry. If you ever come up with actual reasons why it's detrimental to the game and should be changed then maybe we can discuss it.
sir your blind..... and you need to stop defending this crap like a madman.....
what i said are facts why you say ? well because devs DID NOT KNOW about animation canceling means its a side product that was not intended means its bassicaly a bug.... devs just said Okay it stays now after people showed them...
by this its a fact its a bug lol
Doesn´t matter if it´s a bug or not. As long as the devs accept it as a part of the game and allows it (there´re official statements about it, just to lazy to link the video) these discussion on the forums are pointless. Like it: use it. Don´t like it: Then don´t use it.
it does matter i was in and still in enough mmos to know that enough uproar on something especialy on stuff that touches balance and Changes happens if the roars keep coming might take some years tough....Edited by Zordrage on July 24, 2017 9:56AM0 -
Qbiken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
That's all you got? Cause it allegedly wasn't designed, please. You know nothing about what was designed or intended except the same shady assertions that are been thrown over here since forever with nothing to backup.
Yeah, why not?
Why don't you ask Netherrealm studios to remove combos from mortal kombat? See how absurd that is, it's exactly what you are asking here.exeeter702 wrote: »Animation cancelling needs to be removed. Beyond that I'm neutral.
You and those that agree with you dont actuallu understand what that would entail and how it would negatively effect this games combat in the bigger picture.Vipstaakki wrote: »If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. While proc sets need to be toned down for sure, animation cancelling (which is a misnomer anyways I prefer weaving) is a skill available to anybody. Just because some people are new or inexperienced or whatever does not mean that the games skill ceiling needs to be brought down to accommodate them. You never cater to the lowest common denominator if its excellence you're pursuing.
Animation cancelling is not a skill. It is a bug.
It is most definitely not a bug. It is the natural result of a very specific design choice used for this games combat system to maintain player agency and control when using reactive actions after skills resolve yet their recovery animations play out.
So no unfair advantage over those who don't do it? A more fair and even playing field to help bridge the gaping skill gap in this game? How would that negatively affect the game?
no its not... not even close....
because the game was DESIGNED around that..... Combos are the CORE of most fighting game....
Animation canceling is just a weird bug that mostly infesting asian MMORPGs
lol Zenimax didnt even know about it till they forum posts back then and instead of fixing it they took the lazy way and said its considered a feature now... funny how the never talk about it ever again tough.... it wasnt intended so its a bug.... a bug that is abused and makes your animations and characters look/feel derpy ( because the games combat was not designed around it was not intended to work like that obviously ) while giving you an unfair advantage... the whole thing just makes more balance issues and also add more unnecesary stress to commbat. that should not be there in the 1st place....
All you know, all that matters is zos current stance on this and it is pretty clear.
So nope, no difference whatsoever with how mortal kombat, or league legends handles it. There is no fundamental, objective reason why animation cancelling shouldn't be a thing. Only your opinions which to me are honestly worthless, sorry. If you ever come up with actual reasons why it's detrimental to the game and should be changed then maybe we can discuss it.
sir your blind..... and you need to stop defending this crap like a madman.....
what i said are facts why you say ? well because devs DID NOT KNOW about animation canceling means its a side product that was not intended means its bassicaly a bug.... devs just said Okay it stays now after people showed them...
by this its a fact its a bug lol
Doesn´t matter if it´s a bug or not. As long as the devs accept it as a part of the game and allows it (there´re official statements about it, just to lazy to link the video) these discussion on the forums are pointless. Like it: use it. Don´t like it: Then don´t use it.
it does matter i was in and still in enough mmos to know that enough uproar on something especialy on stuff that touches balance and Changes happens if the roars keep coming might take some years tough....
Yea, multiple rant threads Always leads to good balance Changes......0 -
Br1ckst0n✭✭✭Btw if you are having problems seeing animations due to animation cancelling try using a headphone because you can still hear every single skill just fine.Offtank of the year 20160
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cokkto✭✭✭Don't touch weaving - it is unique and wonderful separator between good and average players. This how the game really rocks.
Don't cry for being ganked in pvp, all nirn species are vulnerable to backstab, so are you. Removal of animation cancelling will not make your Cyrodiil travels safer, just battles will be more boring by loosing huge portion of spontaneity. 1-to-1 is never competitive even in real life - first who hits has much higher chance to win.
You don't like weaving - don't use it and make a guild "No-weaving purists", make no-weaving tournaments, fight naked and get any fun you can imagine, but get your hands off of fun of others0 -
Sylosi✭✭✭✭✭The topic is done and through, the only remaining answer is learn to play. Removing it or fixing otherwise WILL impair combat fluidity and in the end simply cater to the potatoes.
LOL, the game already caters to potatoes just some potatoes are too slow to realise it.
The ani cancelling is a fine example of that, in a well designed game, ani cancelling means you take a bit off the end of the animation so you can go into the next skill a little faster, more smoothly, etc, but you still see the animation which is something non-potatoes can generally react to, this is known as skilled gameplay apparently an unknown concept to some.
It is not just about reacting to animations either, in a game with proper ani cancelling it is not uncommon that the point you can ani cancel (without doing it to early and aborting the skill) varies from skill to skill, this ups the skill ceiling of these games, where as in ESO...
In ESO potatoes are under the delusion simply the act of ani cancelling the skill virtually immediately often resulting in no meaningful animation is somehow skilled, but then I guess the very fact someone goes on about "skilled" PvP in a game with no competitive PvP mode, no competitive PvP playerbase, vast levels of inequality in terms of gear/cP, etc, laughable balance with months between patches and that is completely compromised by trying to address PvE & PvP at once (and multple types of content with those), often played in lagfest, etc, should be a clue about the level of this playerbase, typical MMORPG baddies...
Edited by Sylosi on July 24, 2017 10:27AM0 -
Zordrage✭✭✭✭✭The topic is done and through, the only remaining answer is learn to play. Removing it or fixing otherwise WILL impair combat fluidity and in the end simply cater to the potatoes.
LOL, the game already caters to potatoes just some potatoes are too slow to realise it.
in a well designed game, ani cancelling means
no
in a well designed game there is no animation canceling and you react to your oponents attacks with your attacks or abilities or movement and not by abusing a broken mechanic....1 -
Sylosi✭✭✭✭✭The topic is done and through, the only remaining answer is learn to play. Removing it or fixing otherwise WILL impair combat fluidity and in the end simply cater to the potatoes.
LOL, the game already caters to potatoes just some potatoes are too slow to realise it.
in a well designed game, ani cancelling means
no
in a well designed game there is no animation canceling and you react to your oponents attacks with your attacks or abilities or movement and not by abusing a broken mechanic....
If a game has proper animation cancelling it doesn't cancel the whole animation only the end of it, so players can still react to their opponents skill animations, the problem with ESO is ani cancelling was not intended and the way it works is laughable, but like a typical MMORPG anything that requires big changes to the engine is too much work, so it gets left in the game in the broken state that it is in, a prime example of why no one with IQ over room temperature takes MMORPGs seriously.Edited by Sylosi on July 24, 2017 10:20AM1 -
AdicusDio✭✭✭"......or that they are dying to things they can't see. Rather they are just complain that the game is too fast paced."
Um, you apparently never look at your incoming damage recap. I've been hit by more attacks than I can count that never even appeared on-screen, and I'd never even know they were happening w/o the recent recap. I do find it funny people complain about Viper, RM, etc. and yet they barely touch the damage of most attacks people are using atm that cab spammed repeatedly, etc. etc.0