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Cloaking in PvP

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  • deepseamk20b14_ESO
    deepseamk20b14_ESO
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    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Sarno wrote: »
    I like how people want to nerf cloak, treating that ability as some sort of "I win" button, while ignoring the fact that the only other defense stamblades have is dodge roll, and let's be honest NBs are doing zero damage while rolling.

    Meanwhile we have Templars and DKs tanking groups effortlessly while dishing out big crits, and Sorcs spamming the living hell out of shields without any significant drain on magicka, but nobody bats an eye.

    If you want to nerf cloak for the sake of balance, then you will surely agree with the folowing nerfs as well:

    - Heavy armor wearers now cannot sprint and sneak.
    - Wearing heavy armor reduces stamina and magicka regen by 50% and prevents you from healing yourself.
    - Equipping a shield prevents you from landing a crit with damage and healing abilities.
    - Casting damage shield raises the cost of all other damage shield abilities by 33% for 10 seconds. This can stack indefinitely and every damage shield ability cast also refreshes previous stacks.

    You couldn't be further off. Neither of what you listed allows you to completely disassociate from attacks like cloak. You also have shades and the best cc, fear.

    As for other classes, DK and temp heal/blockbots have to sacrifice damage and mobility for their strengths. Heals can be defiled and block stops stam recovery.

    I agree with you on shields, socs don't have to sacrifice anything for them, and shield spam is as bad as cloak spam by nooblades. No one wants to nerf shields/cloak itself, only the spam of it.

    To start, what I'm going to talk about doesn't effect some players because we have learned to find ways around it. But for the majority of players NB has a steeper learning curve than other classes, at least in my opinion. This means having cloak is a necessity.

    Many of these block bots as you call them don't always sacrifice damage. There are several sets that are used that either proc a large damage increase or give a large damage increase via being attacked, such as fury. Heavy armor also gives an additional weapon damage buff which is up almost constantly, especially when fighting multiple targets. These type of players which are mainly DK's also have a strong combo using leap that can usually kill any medium amor NB in 2 or 3 skills that they can make happen within 2 seconds while you are knocked down from their ult (the ult counting as one of those skills).

    Healers are by far mostly templars who spam a conal AoE that is a nightmare for cloak.

    Even with my impressive amount of cloaks as a stamblade while I'm in battle any increase in cost would effectively cut that number down to near useless levels, only mage blades would be able to make it work.

    I do want to be perfectly clear though, any of the above nerfs that Sarno mentioned I'd be extremely against.

    I know sorcs complain about shields being nerfed in the sense they have to recast them every 6 seconds but let's be honest, I don't know any sorc who can take 6 seconds of damage from me without having to recast shields well before they naturally run out. To me it's really not a nerf, just an annoyance because as they travel they need to keep applying them more often.

    It all comes down to heals which NB doesn't have them. Vigor now costs way more and takes you out of cloak as of a few patches ago. We are forced to use a 2H for rally which is only a good burst heal at the end (shadowy disguise at least helps this particular heal). While other classes can mitigate HP loss through heals, NB has to cloak to do so but avoiding said damage. Over the last several patches you can see why NB's have more and more been pushed to ganking and using cheese proc sets. There has been several nerfs that have affected all classes but in all honestly they affected NB the most. Look at the roll dodge nerf. More than just NB's we're doing it though it was NB's always singled out in the forums back when people were complaining about the rolly polly players. Most of us have since recovered from that and can manage it but as more and more AoE becomes used, dodge roll loses some ground.

    People keep bringing up shades as if it's some holy grail of OP skills however it's not. It's certainly a good move but also requires a large learning curve due to its range and inability to see when you are even one step outside of range and any good player sees you drop a shade and personally speaking, as soon as another NB teleports to it I've already whipped around and am ambushing to their position. Most good players can counter shades so defensively it isn't the be all end all as some of you have made it out to be.

    The fact cloak suppresses DoTs also must stay because of the low self healing, people should be happy they nerfed it from before back when it actually removed dots.

    honestly, not one class needs a nerf at the moment.
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  • rfennell_ESO
    rfennell_ESO
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    Baconlad wrote: »
    Cloaks fine. The problem is it dissengages from a fight you can cast cloak once or twice and be in stealth fully. If they made your toon stay in combat like the rest of us, and after the cloak effect ended you would break stealth unless you recloaked, it would be fixed

    Cloak doesn't help you get back into stealth, for the most part, at all.

    Range and los and duration out of combat is what lets you get back into stealth.

    Just so you know, regardless of the usage of cloak... You can restealth immediately after a number of things: Killing an opponent (as long as you don't have dots running on others, but hell sometimes right after a kill you can anyways), Attacks that land when there is no los (yes, if you launch of focused aim at extreme range and then duck out of los you can nearly always restealth). The other key component of getting back into stealth is range from target.

    The point is that cloak does not remove you from combat at all. Ever. You can use cloak to move away from what you are in combat with, but cloak alone does not clear combat on it's own.
  • Azurya
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    Rikkof wrote: »
    first thing they need to do is make it so dodge on NB only avoids first attack and that's that, we have now perma dodgers + cloacking on demand+10k incaps= OP
    Need to be adjusted asap(lowered the damage by a lot and dodge applies only on ONE ATTACK)

    and for sorc who beam themselfes away, only once possible, after that they have to run like hell.
    how crazy is this getting here?
    witchhunt for NB?
    Like everytime before a new patch comes around?
    Edited by Azurya on July 26, 2017 3:20PM
  • Xvorg
    Xvorg
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    deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »
    deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »
    The key to cloak is not standing in red before a cloak. Break LoS before a cloak. Most importantly, dodge roll right before a cloak away from your enemy to avoid even AoE or inner light and you are fine.

    Inner light can be dodged?

    Inner light's range is so short that a roll dodge will bring you out of detection radius.

    For comparison, a DK can hit you with flame lash while standing out of the radius.

    What he/she said.

    And for a millionth time....stop comparing streak and cloak. Oranges to apples. Want to further nerf cloak after it's already been nerfed twice? Okay. Give nightblades class based shields or a burst heal. I'll bet you money you'd be screaming for cloak to come back.

    Streak is a counter to cloak
    Sarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly

    I was born with the wrong sign
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  • Xvorg
    Xvorg
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    Zoliru wrote: »
    Hurika wrote: »
    Maybe make a stam morph of cloak that (instead of invisibility) gives 100% dodge all damage for a fixed amount of damage (based on your stamina pool) and that pool can't be crit? And the buff lasts 6s but has no cost increase for spamming.

    Would that be OP?

    its allready gives 100% dodge...

    miss miss miss miss miss miss.... you can even dodge allready applyed Dots with it... miss miss....

    you want dots to do dmg on cloak? That implies dots break cloak
    Sarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly

    I was born with the wrong sign
    In the wrong house
    With the wrong ascendancy
    I took the wrong road
    That led to the wrong tendencies
    I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
    For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
    On the wrong day of the wrong week
    Used the wrong method with the wrong technique
  • deepseamk20b14_ESO
    deepseamk20b14_ESO
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    Xvorg wrote: »
    deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »
    deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »
    The key to cloak is not standing in red before a cloak. Break LoS before a cloak. Most importantly, dodge roll right before a cloak away from your enemy to avoid even AoE or inner light and you are fine.

    Inner light can be dodged?

    Inner light's range is so short that a roll dodge will bring you out of detection radius.

    For comparison, a DK can hit you with flame lash while standing out of the radius.

    What he/she said.

    And for a millionth time....stop comparing streak and cloak. Oranges to apples. Want to further nerf cloak after it's already been nerfed twice? Okay. Give nightblades class based shields or a burst heal. I'll bet you money you'd be screaming for cloak to come back.

    Streak is a counter to cloak

    Which is exactly why it's comparing apples to oranges. If it's a counter it's not the same thing. The same thing would, well, provide the same capabilities. They are inherently different. Cloak is more akin to shields as it's a way to mitigate damage by either absorbing it (as technically it somewhat does with DoTs) or stopping damage from affecting your HP pool. Now if it's shadowy disguise you are worried about because it gives you a free crit then go ahead and get rid of the crit and give us a heal or heal over time for the 3 seconds cloak is active. But to me that would be way more OP than a simple crit against most every player who runs impen in Cyro.
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  • Unfadingsilence
    Unfadingsilence
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    KingJ wrote: »
    Unfadingsilence wrote: »
    KingJ wrote: »
    Unfadingsilence wrote: »
    thankyourat wrote: »
    Aedaryl wrote: »
    Knootewoot wrote: »
    If my magblade could not cloak many times he would never survive anything. Less protection then stamblades and less burst and still as a melee maglbade I have to come up close and try to get the upperhand. If it fails I have 2 options:

    -die
    -try to cloak away

    The first one works always
    The second option fails a lot because I get caltrops thrown over me, I get rooted in place, people drink detection potions and I think I am cloaked but still get beaten, or I get marked by another NB, people spam flare etc.

    It might be a l2p issue on my side if people watch streams mag NB's owning cyrodill in 1 vs XXX. But that is not the reality.

    No nightblade can stand toe to toe with DK's or sorcs. Some of us use cloak to get away and "reset" the fight. Others use gear to make distance and retry and pick people from distance (and yet hordes of people try to chase them and get picked of one by one)

    Cloak is for at least magblade in light armor and melee the only means of escaping a failed attempt.

    I don't say NB is to weak, but without cloak melee magblade is extinct. And stamblades can cloak mostly 4-5 times (on my Breton stamblade I could). If they are perma invisible for quit some time, that is due to invisibilty potions available to all players who have Alchemy. They last 14-15 seconds.


    It's a L2P issue, you forgot something important, the best escape skill in the game : SHADOW IMAGE. With it, you can escape 99% of fight associated with cloak.

    That's only if you hide the shadow image behind line of sight and you are not snared. If your opponent knows how to play and you are snared its going to be impossible to escape. Magblade is all about positioning so if they are snared they will have a hard time doing anything including escaping fights.
    Unfadingsilence wrote: »
    So I did a screen shot of stats in none CP and a CP campaign these are fully buffed with continuous attack as well first here is none CP

    None CP campaign
    http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/UnfadingSilence/screenshot/6952805

    CP campaign
    http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/UnfadingSilence/screenshot/6952810

    And last let's show the video of me doing cloak I used a few pots and I can if I wanted to perma cloak on my Stam NB I messed up a few times but all in all 50 cloaks yes 50
    http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/UnfadingSilence/video/34371504

    That's out of combat cloaks though once in combat you will not be able to cloak as much. You also have to sacrifice alot of health making you vunerable to being one shot off you are pinned down with a cc followed by a high damaging ability. So your build seems pretty balanced

    So far with this set up I have yet to be 1 shot and in combat my cloak is around 15 or so with a pot
    I'm sorry but that setup is your health is way to low same with your stam.1 Incap Selene combo and your dead with that build.Your build is reliant on dodge roll and cloaking but if you fight someone with a brain and no how to counter cloak your screwed and can't heal.You have a lot of stam recovery so you can dodge roll alot even then there a lot of abilities that goes to dodge roll.

    I have yet to run into anyone who can kill me all out with a combo even top tier players on Xbox NA I have been killed in 1v1 and so on but yet to have anyone just burst me down all my build runs off of dodge rolls cloak and dot damage 4 dots all together and 2 of them go off with just 1 hit and my CP set up along with my NB passives it only takes a few hits to burst someone down on my end a few more if they are in heavy or spamming Shields the whole time
    When you say top tier list them.Not a lot of the top tier players play anymore.

    ostrapz, livefrmthetoilet, Mankeyyyy, AOE caps, and many more I have never been just straight bursted down by any of them I have beat them one-on-one I have lost to them one-on-one but I have yet to be just straight bursted down other then by a purebred Nightblade ganker
    Edited by Unfadingsilence on July 27, 2017 2:07AM
  • Sarato
    Sarato
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    Plenty of ways to counter cloak
    plz stop nerfing stamblades
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  • KingJ
    KingJ
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    Unfadingsilence wrote: »
    KingJ wrote: »
    Unfadingsilence wrote: »
    KingJ wrote: »
    Unfadingsilence wrote: »
    thankyourat wrote: »
    Aedaryl wrote: »
    Knootewoot wrote: »
    If my magblade could not cloak many times he would never survive anything. Less protection then stamblades and less burst and still as a melee maglbade I have to come up close and try to get the upperhand. If it fails I have 2 options:

    -die
    -try to cloak away

    The first one works always
    The second option fails a lot because I get caltrops thrown over me, I get rooted in place, people drink detection potions and I think I am cloaked but still get beaten, or I get marked by another NB, people spam flare etc.

    It might be a l2p issue on my side if people watch streams mag NB's owning cyrodill in 1 vs XXX. But that is not the reality.

    No nightblade can stand toe to toe with DK's or sorcs. Some of us use cloak to get away and "reset" the fight. Others use gear to make distance and retry and pick people from distance (and yet hordes of people try to chase them and get picked of one by one)

    Cloak is for at least magblade in light armor and melee the only means of escaping a failed attempt.

    I don't say NB is to weak, but without cloak melee magblade is extinct. And stamblades can cloak mostly 4-5 times (on my Breton stamblade I could). If they are perma invisible for quit some time, that is due to invisibilty potions available to all players who have Alchemy. They last 14-15 seconds.


    It's a L2P issue, you forgot something important, the best escape skill in the game : SHADOW IMAGE. With it, you can escape 99% of fight associated with cloak.

    That's only if you hide the shadow image behind line of sight and you are not snared. If your opponent knows how to play and you are snared its going to be impossible to escape. Magblade is all about positioning so if they are snared they will have a hard time doing anything including escaping fights.
    Unfadingsilence wrote: »
    So I did a screen shot of stats in none CP and a CP campaign these are fully buffed with continuous attack as well first here is none CP

    None CP campaign
    http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/UnfadingSilence/screenshot/6952805

    CP campaign
    http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/UnfadingSilence/screenshot/6952810

    And last let's show the video of me doing cloak I used a few pots and I can if I wanted to perma cloak on my Stam NB I messed up a few times but all in all 50 cloaks yes 50
    http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/UnfadingSilence/video/34371504

    That's out of combat cloaks though once in combat you will not be able to cloak as much. You also have to sacrifice alot of health making you vunerable to being one shot off you are pinned down with a cc followed by a high damaging ability. So your build seems pretty balanced

    So far with this set up I have yet to be 1 shot and in combat my cloak is around 15 or so with a pot
    I'm sorry but that setup is your health is way to low same with your stam.1 Incap Selene combo and your dead with that build.Your build is reliant on dodge roll and cloaking but if you fight someone with a brain and no how to counter cloak your screwed and can't heal.You have a lot of stam recovery so you can dodge roll alot even then there a lot of abilities that goes to dodge roll.

    I have yet to run into anyone who can kill me all out with a combo even top tier players on Xbox NA I have been killed in 1v1 and so on but yet to have anyone just burst me down all my build runs off of dodge rolls cloak and dot damage 4 dots all together and 2 of them go off with just 1 hit and my CP set up along with my NB passives it only takes a few hits to burst someone down on my end a few more if they are in heavy or spamming Shields the whole time
    When you say top tier list them.Not a lot of the top tier players play anymore.

    ostrapz, livefrmthetoilet, Mankeyyyy, AOE caps, and many more I have never been just straight bursted down by any of them I have beat them one-on-one I have lost to them one-on-one but I have yet to be just straight bursted down other then by a purebred Nightblade ganker
    I'm playing with live and ostrpaz right now and they said they dont know or ever fought you.I highly doubt with 18k health you never been bursted down by a good nb.
  • Unfadingsilence
    Unfadingsilence
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    KingJ wrote: »
    Unfadingsilence wrote: »
    KingJ wrote: »
    Unfadingsilence wrote: »
    KingJ wrote: »
    Unfadingsilence wrote: »
    thankyourat wrote: »
    Aedaryl wrote: »
    Knootewoot wrote: »
    If my magblade could not cloak many times he would never survive anything. Less protection then stamblades and less burst and still as a melee maglbade I have to come up close and try to get the upperhand. If it fails I have 2 options:

    -die
    -try to cloak away

    The first one works always
    The second option fails a lot because I get caltrops thrown over me, I get rooted in place, people drink detection potions and I think I am cloaked but still get beaten, or I get marked by another NB, people spam flare etc.

    It might be a l2p issue on my side if people watch streams mag NB's owning cyrodill in 1 vs XXX. But that is not the reality.

    No nightblade can stand toe to toe with DK's or sorcs. Some of us use cloak to get away and "reset" the fight. Others use gear to make distance and retry and pick people from distance (and yet hordes of people try to chase them and get picked of one by one)

    Cloak is for at least magblade in light armor and melee the only means of escaping a failed attempt.

    I don't say NB is to weak, but without cloak melee magblade is extinct. And stamblades can cloak mostly 4-5 times (on my Breton stamblade I could). If they are perma invisible for quit some time, that is due to invisibilty potions available to all players who have Alchemy. They last 14-15 seconds.


    It's a L2P issue, you forgot something important, the best escape skill in the game : SHADOW IMAGE. With it, you can escape 99% of fight associated with cloak.

    That's only if you hide the shadow image behind line of sight and you are not snared. If your opponent knows how to play and you are snared its going to be impossible to escape. Magblade is all about positioning so if they are snared they will have a hard time doing anything including escaping fights.
    Unfadingsilence wrote: »
    So I did a screen shot of stats in none CP and a CP campaign these are fully buffed with continuous attack as well first here is none CP

    None CP campaign
    http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/UnfadingSilence/screenshot/6952805

    CP campaign
    http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/UnfadingSilence/screenshot/6952810

    And last let's show the video of me doing cloak I used a few pots and I can if I wanted to perma cloak on my Stam NB I messed up a few times but all in all 50 cloaks yes 50
    http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/UnfadingSilence/video/34371504

    That's out of combat cloaks though once in combat you will not be able to cloak as much. You also have to sacrifice alot of health making you vunerable to being one shot off you are pinned down with a cc followed by a high damaging ability. So your build seems pretty balanced

    So far with this set up I have yet to be 1 shot and in combat my cloak is around 15 or so with a pot
    I'm sorry but that setup is your health is way to low same with your stam.1 Incap Selene combo and your dead with that build.Your build is reliant on dodge roll and cloaking but if you fight someone with a brain and no how to counter cloak your screwed and can't heal.You have a lot of stam recovery so you can dodge roll alot even then there a lot of abilities that goes to dodge roll.

    I have yet to run into anyone who can kill me all out with a combo even top tier players on Xbox NA I have been killed in 1v1 and so on but yet to have anyone just burst me down all my build runs off of dodge rolls cloak and dot damage 4 dots all together and 2 of them go off with just 1 hit and my CP set up along with my NB passives it only takes a few hits to burst someone down on my end a few more if they are in heavy or spamming Shields the whole time
    When you say top tier list them.Not a lot of the top tier players play anymore.

    ostrapz, livefrmthetoilet, Mankeyyyy, AOE caps, and many more I have never been just straight bursted down by any of them I have beat them one-on-one I have lost to them one-on-one but I have yet to be just straight bursted down other then by a purebred Nightblade ganker
    I'm playing with live and ostrpaz right now and they said they dont know or ever fought you.I highly doubt with 18k health you never been bursted down by a good nb.

    Haha yet live is in my guild and I have known each of them since the games been out and live plays on AD not so much on EP with ostrapz and on top of that I'm livefrmthetoilets crafter as well good try
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