Cloaking in PvP

gaimers

Using cloak and playing sneaky is part of being a nightblade, I know, and also it provides the class something unique.

However, lately I experienced fights, that have shown me, how annoying it can be to fight someone using cloak.

I am not really pointing at a magicka build right now, since they can sustain permanent cloaking. (Sadly )

But I want to talk about stamina builds. We all know cloak is an important part of stamblade builds. Crit heals, avoiding damage while waiting for dodge roll cost reset etc etc.

However very few skills, that SOLO/SMALLSCALE PvPers can get away with using , can detect cloaking players. Do keep in mind I'm not talking about someone, who sees 2-3 people riding on a horse, and goes into cloak to avoid a disadvantageous situation. The matter I'm talking about is engaging and disengaging combat.

I mostly play stam DK, group mostly consists of 2DKs, stamina and magicka. I do run volatile armor, which can break cloak. Magicka DK does use talons and volatile a. However the fact, that when we focus a stamblade who uses cloak after his health got down to ~10% AND ESCAPES WITHOUT EVER POPPING OUT OF STEALTH AGAIN, makes nightblade a really annoying class to fight against.

Stamina nightblades being able to cloak 4-5 times without a potion, USING A BUILD THAT IS VIABLE AND STILL DOES GOOD DAMAGE is an absolute no-go for me.

Cloak should get reworked like streak, making it cost more and more if cast more than once in a certain amount of time. No other class has the luxury, to get in and out of combat so quickly and being able to disappear in front of people.

Streak is a good example imo, it is used by both stamina and magicka sorcerer builds, magicka sorc still can afford to use it 4-5 times without draining his resources too much. Stamina can use it just enough to get behind line of sight etc.

Cloak should work the same way in my opinion.

What do others think about this?

P.S. the fact that half of the people we see in cyro are nightblades makes this even more annoying

Berenhir

Drink a detect potion next time.
Thread closed.

Sharee

I deal with it by saving my detection potion until it looks like the NB might try to bolt. Of course that puts you at a disadvantage because you basically cannot otherwise use potions during the fight while he can. So it only really works against bad NB's (the ones you don't need a tristat potion to survive), who do not know how to use shade teleport.

Sharee

Berenhir wrote: »

Drink a detect potion next time.
Thread closed.

1, cast a shade
2, move away from shade
3, teleport 15m to shade, putting you behind the back of anyone chasing you in melee
4, dodge roll in the opposite direction they are running.

Congrats, now you are out of the 20m detection range of the potion and can cloak freely. There also is nothing short of a negate that your pursuer could do to prevent you from doing it. (In other words no, thread not closed)

Wrubius_Coronaria

Cloak has already a lot of counters, this skill don't deserve any nerf or rework.

Berenhir

Sharee wrote: »

Berenhir wrote: »

Drink a detect potion next time.
Thread closed.

1, cast a shade
2, move away from shade
3, teleport 15m to shade, putting you behind the back of anyone chasing you in melee
4, dodge roll in the opposite direction they are running.

Congrats, now you are out of the 20m detection range of the potion and can cloak freely. There also is nothing short of a negate that your pursuer could do to prevent you from doing it. (In other words no, thread not closed)

If a nightblade casts a shade, you better stay at the shade or put a trap like fire rune, mines or cinder storm there.
Of course you have to decide when to drink your pot, just as the nb has to decide when to try to disengage. Also more AoE helps more. No defensive mechanic has even only half as many counters as cloak.

Every I mean EVERY AoE, a specific drink, a specific skill in the alliance war support line, magelight, mark target, curse aaaand magicka draining poisons.

Dealing with cloaking nightblades is the prime example of a l2p issue.

Sharee

Berenhir wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Berenhir wrote: »

Drink a detect potion next time.
Thread closed.

1, cast a shade
2, move away from shade
3, teleport 15m to shade, putting you behind the back of anyone chasing you in melee
4, dodge roll in the opposite direction they are running.

Congrats, now you are out of the 20m detection range of the potion and can cloak freely. There also is nothing short of a negate that your pursuer could do to prevent you from doing it. (In other words no, thread not closed)

If a nightblade casts a shade, you better stay at the shade

Oh yes, STAYING at a shade while the NB is running away will surely help in preventing him from getting out of the potion detection range. Why didn't i think of that before

Berenhir

Sharee wrote: »

Berenhir wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Berenhir wrote: »

Drink a detect potion next time.
Thread closed.

1, cast a shade
2, move away from shade
3, teleport 15m to shade, putting you behind the back of anyone chasing you in melee
4, dodge roll in the opposite direction they are running.

Congrats, now you are out of the 20m detection range of the potion and can cloak freely. There also is nothing short of a negate that your pursuer could do to prevent you from doing it. (In other words no, thread not closed)

If a nightblade casts a shade, you better stay at the shade

Oh yes, STAYING at a shade while the NB is running away will surely help in preventing him from getting out of the potion detection range. Why didn't i think of that before

No problem even in a duo. One stays at shade, one stays at nightblade 30/45sec uptime on detect.

If you are solo, take the second part of my quote (the one you cut off) and place a trap. Or just pop detect and spam AOE and gap closers.

Sharee

Berenhir wrote: »

If you are solo, take the second part of my quote (the one you cut off) and place a trap.

How exactly does a cinder storm or a mine at the shade prevent the NB from doing step 4: dodge roll and cloak? Hint: it doesn't. A volcanic rune only delays it by a single break free, then he's gone, and that's assuming the NB wasn't CC immune, and you had volcanic rune slotted (you know how many i saw placed in the last six months? Two.)

Berenhir wrote: »

Or just pop detect and spam AOE and gap closers.

Detect is already running, thats the whole point of the shade. And you can spam AOE's all you want, the NB is 15m away, behind you, and disappears in 0.5 sec. And that's if you are lucky, and he didn't teleport up an unclimbable cliff, or through a wall.

Berenhir

Sharee wrote: »

Berenhir wrote: »

If you are solo, take the second part of my quote (the one you cut off) and place a trap.

How exactly does a cinder storm or a mine at the shade prevent the NB from doing step 4: dodge roll and cloak? Hint: it doesn't. A volcanic rune only delays it by a single break free, then he's gone, and that's assuming the NB wasn't CC immune, and you had volcanic rune slotted (you know how many i saw placed in the last six months? Two.)

Berenhir wrote: »

Or just pop detect and spam AOE and gap closers.

Detect is already running, thats the whole point of the shade. And you can spam AOE's all you want, the NB is 15m away, behind you, and disappears in 0.5 sec. And that's if you are lucky, and he didn't teleport up an unclimbable cliff, or through a wall.

Typical stamNB encounter:
He jumps at you and rng fails to proc his cheese. You get 7 seconds of Cc immunity. He tries to cloak away. You AOE him. He manages to live through seven seconds of you AOEing, snaring and gapclosing him until he manages to fear you. His cloak is successful. You pop a detection pot, he realizes this after 1-2 seconds defense&reaction time. He pops a shade. You aoe him while he pulls you away from the shade. You don't trap the shade, you don't finish him and 4 secs later he manages to teleport back and dodge cloak away.

If this is how you would describe your encounters with nbs, then they totally deserve to live through your attempts to kill them.

PS: if he puts his shade directly after the failed gank and doesn't use the cc to disengage, it's even easier as you can pop the pot when he tries to teleport back and have another x seconds of aoe on him.

And this is all if you're both alone - what never happens in an environment designed for large scale group AvA.

Problem is most people slot only single target attacks or player based instead of ground based dots and then come to the forums to qq about blocking immovable tanks and cloaking nightblades, the two specs whose defenses directly counter that play style.

Heck I forgot there even is a low cost ultimate that denies cloak and goes through dodge available for everyone.

gaimers

Berenhir wrote: »

If you are solo, take the second part of my quote (the one you cut off) and place a trap. Or just pop detect and spam AOE and gap closers.

I mentioned something in the OP.

gaimers wrote: »

However very few skills, that SOLO/SMALLSCALE PvPers can get away with using , can detect cloaking players.

Let's be honest, who slots runes in solo? There are not that many viable skills, the topic was not focused on fighting a NB, but preventing their escape, which already renders rearming trap and rune useless. Also the detection potion method is countered easily, it basically cuts off your sustain. There are no det.pots made for stamina builds.

Malmai

gaimers wrote: »

Using cloak and playing sneaky is part of being a nightblade, I know, and also it provides the class something unique.

However, lately I experienced fights, that have shown me, how annoying it can be to fight someone using cloak.

I am not really pointing at a magicka build right now, since they can sustain permanent cloaking. (Sadly )

But I want to talk about stamina builds. We all know cloak is an important part of stamblade builds. Crit heals, avoiding damage while waiting for dodge roll cost reset etc etc.

However very few skills, that SOLO/SMALLSCALE PvPers can get away with using , can detect cloaking players. Do keep in mind I'm not talking about someone, who sees 2-3 people riding on a horse, and goes into cloak to avoid a disadvantageous situation. The matter I'm talking about is engaging and disengaging combat.

I mostly play stam DK, group mostly consists of 2DKs, stamina and magicka. I do run volatile armor, which can break cloak. Magicka DK does use talons and volatile a. However the fact, that when we focus a stamblade who uses cloak after his health got down to ~10% AND ESCAPES WITHOUT EVER POPPING OUT OF STEALTH AGAIN, makes nightblade a really annoying class to fight against.

Stamina nightblades being able to cloak 4-5 times without a potion, USING A BUILD THAT IS VIABLE AND STILL DOES GOOD DAMAGE is an absolute no-go for me.

Cloak should get reworked like streak, making it cost more and more if cast more than once in a certain amount of time. No other class has the luxury, to get in and out of combat so quickly and being able to disappear in front of people.

Streak is a good example imo, it is used by both stamina and magicka sorcerer builds, magicka sorc still can afford to use it 4-5 times without draining his resources too much. Stamina can use it just enough to get behind line of sight etc.

Cloak should work the same way in my opinion.

What do others think about this?

P.S. the fact that half of the people we see in cyro are nightblades makes this even more annoying

So you want to tell me to fight 1v1 vs stam dk with so many buffs that u cant even kill him 1v5 and with 10 k resist vs 30k and so many passives on dk that is just absurd if u wanna go 1v1 with dk... Let me just stand there while u beat me LoL...

gaimers

Malmai wrote: »

gaimers wrote: »

Using cloak and playing sneaky is part of being a nightblade, I know, and also it provides the class something unique.

However, lately I experienced fights, that have shown me, how annoying it can be to fight someone using cloak.

I am not really pointing at a magicka build right now, since they can sustain permanent cloaking. (Sadly )

But I want to talk about stamina builds. We all know cloak is an important part of stamblade builds. Crit heals, avoiding damage while waiting for dodge roll cost reset etc etc.

However very few skills, that SOLO/SMALLSCALE PvPers can get away with using , can detect cloaking players. Do keep in mind I'm not talking about someone, who sees 2-3 people riding on a horse, and goes into cloak to avoid a disadvantageous situation. The matter I'm talking about is engaging and disengaging combat.

I mostly play stam DK, group mostly consists of 2DKs, stamina and magicka. I do run volatile armor, which can break cloak. Magicka DK does use talons and volatile a. However the fact, that when we focus a stamblade who uses cloak after his health got down to ~10% AND ESCAPES WITHOUT EVER POPPING OUT OF STEALTH AGAIN, makes nightblade a really annoying class to fight against.

Stamina nightblades being able to cloak 4-5 times without a potion, USING A BUILD THAT IS VIABLE AND STILL DOES GOOD DAMAGE is an absolute no-go for me.

Cloak should get reworked like streak, making it cost more and more if cast more than once in a certain amount of time. No other class has the luxury, to get in and out of combat so quickly and being able to disappear in front of people.

Streak is a good example imo, it is used by both stamina and magicka sorcerer builds, magicka sorc still can afford to use it 4-5 times without draining his resources too much. Stamina can use it just enough to get behind line of sight etc.

Cloak should work the same way in my opinion.

What do others think about this?

P.S. the fact that half of the people we see in cyro are nightblades makes this even more annoying

So you want to tell me to fight 1v1 vs stam dk with so many buffs that u cant even kill him 1v5 and with 10 k resist vs 30k and so many passives on dk that is just absurd if u wanna go 1v1 with dk... Let me just stand there while u beat me LoL...

Then again, you also missed my main point in this topic. The issue is, it's too easy to stay cloaked for insane amounts of time which makes you invulnerable basically. You can engage/disengage fights and escape with no punishment.

gaimers

Berenhir wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Berenhir wrote: »

If you are solo, take the second part of my quote (the one you cut off) and place a trap.

How exactly does a cinder storm or a mine at the shade prevent the NB from doing step 4: dodge roll and cloak? Hint: it doesn't. A volcanic rune only delays it by a single break free, then he's gone, and that's assuming the NB wasn't CC immune, and you had volcanic rune slotted (you know how many i saw placed in the last six months? Two.)

Berenhir wrote: »

Or just pop detect and spam AOE and gap closers.

Detect is already running, thats the whole point of the shade. And you can spam AOE's all you want, the NB is 15m away, behind you, and disappears in 0.5 sec. And that's if you are lucky, and he didn't teleport up an unclimbable cliff, or through a wall.

Typical stamNB encounter:
He jumps at you and rng fails to proc his cheese. You get 7 seconds of Cc immunity. He tries to cloak away. You AOE him. He manages to live through seven seconds of you AOEing, snaring and gapclosing him until he manages to fear you. His cloak is successful. You pop a detection pot, he realizes this after 1-2 seconds defense&reaction time. He pops a shade. You aoe him while he pulls you away from the shade. You don't trap the shade, you don't finish him and 4 secs later he manages to teleport back and dodge cloak away.

If this is how you would describe your encounters with nbs, then they totally deserve to live through your attempts to kill them.

PS: if he puts his shade directly after the failed gank and doesn't use the cc to disengage, it's even easier as you can pop the pot when he tries to teleport back and have another x seconds of aoe on him.

And this is all if you're both alone - what never happens in an environment designed for large scale group AvA.

Problem is most people slot only single target attacks or player based instead of ground based dots and then come to the forums to qq about blocking immovable tanks and cloaking nightblades, the two specs whose defenses directly counter that play style.

Heck I forgot there even is a low cost ultimate that denies cloak and goes through dodge available for everyone.

You sound like the ultimate Xv1 player spamming skills to prevent cloak. Lmao

I honestly think, if you would play solo, you would understand my point. You can not keep your potions infinitely, also you would never go solo with aoe bars, unless you zergsurf, which is not solo

NeillMcAttack

Steak is not even close to cloak. Steak actually creates distance, at which the sorc can replenish his mag pool. Cloak is so weak against groups, experienced players, and anyone with alchemy potions.

For the love of god. I was fighting a magblade emperor yesterday and can honestly say he was nowhere near as strong as a normal, well played sorc.

Cloak isn't even as strong as mist form.

Krayzie

Cloak is extremely broken and has a 50/50 chance of working, especially if there's more than one player attacking you

Feanor

The funny thing is the forum NBs always claim cloak doesn't work 9/10 times. The encounters I have in Cyrodiil or in BGs speak a totally different story though...

IlCanis_LupuslI

..... As a stamblade i always slot Piercing mark .... Or put down a beast trap and block, as soon as he jumps you draining shot him... Works every time

Strider_Roshin

Cloak is so bad I'm looking forward to replacing it with mist form.

Merlin13KAGL

gaimers wrote: »

P.S. the fact that half of the people we see in cyro are nightblades makes this even more annoying

How is this possible? I thought they were cloaked?

Grumble_and_Grunt

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

Steak is not even close to cloak. Steak actually creates distance, at which the sorc can replenish his mag pool. Cloak is so weak against groups, experienced players, and anyone with alchemy potions.

For the love of god. I was fighting a magblade emperor yesterday and can honestly say he was nowhere near as strong as a normal, well played sorc.

Cloak isn't even as strong as mist form.

lmao mist form stronger than cloak?
Sure any Templar and Mag DK would happily trade their mist form for cloak

Any NB claiming that mist form is more effective to disengage from combat than cloak is a bad NB.

Any NB saying cloak only works 50/50 of the time nowadays is a bad NB. You're just failing to use the ability effectively with other skills and your surroundings, most likely those people who get sneezed on in PvP and then instantly press cloak on the spot and wonder why their cloak doesn't go off xD

NeillMcAttack

Grumble_and_Grunt wrote: »

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

Steak is not even close to cloak. Steak actually creates distance, at which the sorc can replenish his mag pool. Cloak is so weak against groups, experienced players, and anyone with alchemy potions.

For the love of god. I was fighting a magblade emperor yesterday and can honestly say he was nowhere near as strong as a normal, well played sorc.

Cloak isn't even as strong as mist form.

lmao mist form stronger than cloak?
Sure any Templar and Mag DK would happily trade their mist form for cloak

Any NB claiming that mist form is more effective to disengage from combat than cloak is a bad NB.

Any NB saying cloak only works 50/50 of the time nowadays is a bad NB. You're just failing to use the ability effectively with other skills and your surroundings, most likely those people who get sneezed on in PvP and then instantly press cloak on the spot and wonder why their cloak doesn't go off xD

Seriously!!?
Mist form purges roots, snares, and grants major expedition! It reduces damage taken and you can even stack a healing ward on top of it that benifits from the reduced damage taken. If I'm snared, cloak is pretty useless, rooted useless, if my enemy has decent AOE, like you know, a Templar (pol/jabs), sorc (hurricane/streak/curse), DK (lots of stuff), NB (depends I guess). The point is. All these can deal with cloak much easier than mist form.

Sure I disengage against large groups and small groups of potatoes all the time with cloak. It's currently on my bar and works reasonably well with the other skills I'm running. But to say it's stronger than mist form or comparable to streak is nonsense if you consider a balanced, experienced, grp v grp scenario.

NeillMcAttack

And do you know what skill I use to counter cloak? Refreshing path, works well over 50% of the time. If I miss once or twice I'll pop an IMMOVABLE/detect pot!!!

Runschei

Posting to follow this. As a stamina nightblade I'd like to know what else you have to say about my class

technohic

Cone attacks are great for this. Bow for stam and staff for magic have some with decent range. Throw in a ground AOE and you can make it difficult

idk

Berenhir wrote: »

Drink a detect potion next time.
Thread closed.

And that stamblade that went invis used a potion to accomplish that, which is available to everyone. Unless the stam blade is gearing for magicka sustain (unlikely) they cannot sustain cloak for long.

Hurika

You know what else is annoying:

• Perma block and block casting
• Shield spam
• BoL spam
• People not willing to use one of the MANY MANY counters in the game and wanting the work done for them.

If you removed everything annoying from the game then we'd be left playing solitaire cause the most annoying thing is people - especially those who want everything they don't like nerfed.

CavalryPK

gaimers wrote: »

Using cloak and playing sneaky is part of being a nightblade, I know, and also it provides the class something unique.

However, lately I experienced fights, that have shown me, how annoying it can be to fight someone using cloak.

I am not really pointing at a magicka build right now, since they can sustain permanent cloaking. (Sadly )

But I want to talk about stamina builds. We all know cloak is an important part of stamblade builds. Crit heals, avoiding damage while waiting for dodge roll cost reset etc etc.

However very few skills, that SOLO/SMALLSCALE PvPers can get away with using , can detect cloaking players. Do keep in mind I'm not talking about someone, who sees 2-3 people riding on a horse, and goes into cloak to avoid a disadvantageous situation. The matter I'm talking about is engaging and disengaging combat.

I mostly play stam DK, group mostly consists of 2DKs, stamina and magicka. I do run volatile armor, which can break cloak. Magicka DK does use talons and volatile a. However the fact, that when we focus a stamblade who uses cloak after his health got down to ~10% AND ESCAPES WITHOUT EVER POPPING OUT OF STEALTH AGAIN, makes nightblade a really annoying class to fight against.

Stamina nightblades being able to cloak 4-5 times without a potion, USING A BUILD THAT IS VIABLE AND STILL DOES GOOD DAMAGE is an absolute no-go for me.

Cloak should get reworked like streak, making it cost more and more if cast more than once in a certain amount of time. No other class has the luxury, to get in and out of combat so quickly and being able to disappear in front of people.

Streak is a good example imo, it is used by both stamina and magicka sorcerer builds, magicka sorc still can afford to use it 4-5 times without draining his resources too much. Stamina can use it just enough to get behind line of sight etc.

Cloak should work the same way in my opinion.

What do others think about this?

P.S. the fact that half of the people we see in cyro are nightblades makes this even more annoying

I mostly agree with you . Please can you share a build (or tell me the name of a person) of a stamblade that can cloak 4-5 times with out using potion? I need this for reasons.

crowfl56

The only thing I believe that is broken when a stamblade use's cloak, is the simple fact that they can cloak even when they have had a DOT of any kind hit them, just how and why can they be able to cloak when taking dmg ??????????

That my friends is the broken part. he he the rest is just skill by the player is all.

Gilvoth

if you fight us nightblades toe to toe we nightblades will die 90% of the time, we are not built for fighting, we are built for assassination playstyle.
our complete survival is based on cloak.

coop500

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

if you fight us nightblades toe to toe we nightblades will die 90% of the time, we are not built for fighting, we are built for assassination playstyle.
our complete survival is based on cloak.

^This! i don't play NB much, but yesterday I learned the hard way just how hard it is to 1vs1 anyone as a NB. My only option was to cloak away or die, my choice was obvious and even then half the time I failed, the damage was too much.