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Issues with Medium Armor & How To Fix It
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Maikon✭✭✭✭70% damage reduction during roll dodge, Ummmm, no.
Would you prefer the "0% damage reduction, avoid nothing and drain your own stamina" that it currently is?
If not, maybe you could elaborate on your comment?
Edit: to be more clear, in the past Roll Dodge used to avoid almost all damage (100%) and didn't have a stacking cost to it - I believe 70% would be a fair compromise especially considering no one can spam it anymore.
??? Guess you haven't seen the roly polies in Cyrodil
It is mathematically impossible to Roll Dodge forever due to the stacking cost modifier, and if you "spam" it you eventually either run out of health or stamina - which btw is not the case with light armor shield spam or heavy armor's blocking/mitigation/self heals.
In any case, I'm not advocating for a 100% reduction to all damage - 70% would be just fine (on paper, ofc everything requires testing) and should make it possible to outheal DoTs atleast with Vigor, much like heavy armor outheals them (and everything else) while blocking. Of course, if you pressure someone they'll eventually run out of stamina if they have to keep roll dodging & vigoring.
The problem is it´s mathematically very possible to cloak and dodge endlessly.
It´s already hard to kill a nb who chooses to disengange after they failed trying to kill you. If they have shade it´s already not possible for most builds (except for nbs with mark).
How would you suggest that could be adressed?
I´ve at some time made the suggestion to make the stealthy passive provide 150 impen per piece of medium armor equipped (to make well fitted a more utilizeable trait - though this could be undesireable with the introduction of impregnable) aswell as provide flat weapondmg instead of a 12% incrase.
I don´t think having rolldodge provide the same dmg mitigation block does is going to help any.
Well, that's really more of a NB thing than medium armor - a NB in heavy armor can shadow image+cloak just as well as medium armor, if not better (as they can actually get quite a lot of magicka returns from Constitution). The difference is that they don't have to.
If not damage mitigation, how do you make roll dodge even a remotely useful defense tool against something like Warden for example, whose damage is 99% undodgeable? Their main spammable ability that hits harder than Surprise Attack goes through dodge, all their DoTs go through dodge, Shalks go through dodge (and cloak, and stun you if they're from magicka warden) - the only things you can dodge vs warden are light/heavy attacks.
It's pretty much the same vs Templars & DKs (whose damage is also for the most part unaffected by any dodge rolling). Sorcs & NBs (in that order) do still have damage you can avoid, but that's 2 out of 5 classes.
All this comes back to a single skill, the only skill a warden has to do any kind of relative damage. You just wanna make anyone who's made a dps mag warden completely useless just because you died to one.
Their dot isan't that strong, and any with skill can avoid the shalks.Edited by Maikon on July 17, 2017 3:07PM0 -
Ragnaroek93✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭70% damage reduction during roll dodge, Ummmm, no.
Would you prefer the "0% damage reduction, avoid nothing and drain your own stamina" that it currently is?
If not, maybe you could elaborate on your comment?
Edit: to be more clear, in the past Roll Dodge used to avoid almost all damage (100%) and didn't have a stacking cost to it - I believe 70% would be a fair compromise especially considering no one can spam it anymore.
You must be smoking some high quality crack, I've seen nb's dodge roll 15+ times in a row and still have more then enough stam to burst someone down or sprint away.
15 rolls in a row. How about no?I used to think that PvP was a tragedy, but now I realize, it's a comedy.7 -
GreenSoup2HoT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭70% damage reduction during roll dodge, Ummmm, no.
Would you prefer the "0% damage reduction, avoid nothing and drain your own stamina" that it currently is?
If not, maybe you could elaborate on your comment?
Edit: to be more clear, in the past Roll Dodge used to avoid almost all damage (100%) and didn't have a stacking cost to it - I believe 70% would be a fair compromise especially considering no one can spam it anymore.
You must be smoking some high quality crack, I've seen nb's dodge roll 15+ times in a row and still have more then enough stam to burst someone down or sprint away.
Theres a difference between rolling 15 times and rolling 5, waiting 4 seconds with cloak, rolling 5 and repeat. Its very easy to do this way considering impreg wellfitted.PS4 NA DC1 -
Maikon✭✭✭✭GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »70% damage reduction during roll dodge, Ummmm, no.
Would you prefer the "0% damage reduction, avoid nothing and drain your own stamina" that it currently is?
If not, maybe you could elaborate on your comment?
Edit: to be more clear, in the past Roll Dodge used to avoid almost all damage (100%) and didn't have a stacking cost to it - I believe 70% would be a fair compromise especially considering no one can spam it anymore.
You must be smoking some high quality crack, I've seen nb's dodge roll 15+ times in a row and still have more then enough stam to burst someone down or sprint away.
Theres a difference between rolling 15 times and rolling 5, waiting 4 seconds with cloak, rolling 5 and repeat. Its very easy to do this way considering impreg wellfitted.
I'm talking about straight up spam dodge roll 15+ times, no cloak, no waiting. Just constant spam.
I even chased a DC once, who sprinted non-stop from roe to aleswell. And I couldn't catch him even with a 60 mount and rapids.Edited by Maikon on July 17, 2017 3:10PM0 -
GreenSoup2HoT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »70% damage reduction during roll dodge, Ummmm, no.
Would you prefer the "0% damage reduction, avoid nothing and drain your own stamina" that it currently is?
If not, maybe you could elaborate on your comment?
Edit: to be more clear, in the past Roll Dodge used to avoid almost all damage (100%) and didn't have a stacking cost to it - I believe 70% would be a fair compromise especially considering no one can spam it anymore.
You must be smoking some high quality crack, I've seen nb's dodge roll 15+ times in a row and still have more then enough stam to burst someone down or sprint away.
Theres a difference between rolling 15 times and rolling 5, waiting 4 seconds with cloak, rolling 5 and repeat. Its very easy to do this way considering impreg wellfitted.
I'm talking about straight up spam dodge roll 15+ times, no cloak, no waiting. Just constant spam.
I even chased a DC once, who sprinted non-stop from roe to aleswell. And I couldn't catch him even with a 60 mount and rapids.
15 roll dodges in a row is impossible with the way its cost increase stack happens though.
You probably ran into a scroll running build. They can sprint forever and super fast. Probably a stam sorc with dark deal too.PS4 NA DC2 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »70% damage reduction during roll dodge, Ummmm, no.
Would you prefer the "0% damage reduction, avoid nothing and drain your own stamina" that it currently is?
If not, maybe you could elaborate on your comment?
Edit: to be more clear, in the past Roll Dodge used to avoid almost all damage (100%) and didn't have a stacking cost to it - I believe 70% would be a fair compromise especially considering no one can spam it anymore.
You must be smoking some high quality crack, I've seen nb's dodge roll 15+ times in a row and still have more then enough stam to burst someone down or sprint away.
Theres a difference between rolling 15 times and rolling 5, waiting 4 seconds with cloak, rolling 5 and repeat. Its very easy to do this way considering impreg wellfitted.
I'm talking about straight up spam dodge roll 15+ times, no cloak, no waiting. Just constant spam.
I even chased a DC once, who sprinted non-stop from roe to aleswell. And I couldn't catch him even with a 60 mount and rapids.
Base cost of roll dodge is 3654 stamina, you can reduce it down to 1282 with 7x Medium, 7x Well-Fitted & 25% from Tumbling.
1282(+33%)->1705(+33%)->2268(+33%)->3016(+33%)->4011(+33%)->5335(+33%)->7096(+33%)->9437(+33%)->12552(+33%)->16694(+33%)->22202(+33%)
So after 11 consecutive roll dodges, we're talking about 22,2k stamina cost/dodge.
How exactly do you envision someone dodge rolling 15 times in a row?5 -
GreenSoup2HoT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »70% damage reduction during roll dodge, Ummmm, no.
Would you prefer the "0% damage reduction, avoid nothing and drain your own stamina" that it currently is?
If not, maybe you could elaborate on your comment?
Edit: to be more clear, in the past Roll Dodge used to avoid almost all damage (100%) and didn't have a stacking cost to it - I believe 70% would be a fair compromise especially considering no one can spam it anymore.
You must be smoking some high quality crack, I've seen nb's dodge roll 15+ times in a row and still have more then enough stam to burst someone down or sprint away.
Theres a difference between rolling 15 times and rolling 5, waiting 4 seconds with cloak, rolling 5 and repeat. Its very easy to do this way considering impreg wellfitted.
I'm talking about straight up spam dodge roll 15+ times, no cloak, no waiting. Just constant spam.
I even chased a DC once, who sprinted non-stop from roe to aleswell. And I couldn't catch him even with a 60 mount and rapids.
Base cost of roll dodge is 3654 stamina, you can reduce it down to 1282 with 7x Medium, 7x Well-Fitted & 25% from Tumbling.
1282(+33%)->1705(+33%)->2268(+33%)->3016(+33%)->4011(+33%)->5335(+33%)->7096(+33%)->9437(+33%)->12552(+33%)->16694(+33%)->22202(+33%)
So after 11 consecutive roll dodges, we're talking about 22,2k stamina cost/dodge.
How exactly do you envision someone dodge rolling 15 times in a row?
Obviously was someone who knows the 4 second cooldown. Based on your calculations you could easily sustain 4 dodges in a row with like 3k regen and heavy attacks and repeat after cost stack expires.Edited by GreenSoup2HoT on July 17, 2017 3:33PMPS4 NA DC0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭70% damage reduction during roll dodge, Ummmm, no.
Would you prefer the "0% damage reduction, avoid nothing and drain your own stamina" that it currently is?
If not, maybe you could elaborate on your comment?
Edit: to be more clear, in the past Roll Dodge used to avoid almost all damage (100%) and didn't have a stacking cost to it - I believe 70% would be a fair compromise especially considering no one can spam it anymore.
??? Guess you haven't seen the roly polies in Cyrodil
It is mathematically impossible to Roll Dodge forever due to the stacking cost modifier, and if you "spam" it you eventually either run out of health or stamina - which btw is not the case with light armor shield spam or heavy armor's blocking/mitigation/self heals.
In any case, I'm not advocating for a 100% reduction to all damage - 70% would be just fine (on paper, ofc everything requires testing) and should make it possible to outheal DoTs atleast with Vigor, much like heavy armor outheals them (and everything else) while blocking. Of course, if you pressure someone they'll eventually run out of stamina if they have to keep roll dodging & vigoring.
The problem is it´s mathematically very possible to cloak and dodge endlessly.
It´s already hard to kill a nb who chooses to disengange after they failed trying to kill you. If they have shade it´s already not possible for most builds (except for nbs with mark).
How would you suggest that could be adressed?
I´ve at some time made the suggestion to make the stealthy passive provide 150 impen per piece of medium armor equipped (to make well fitted a more utilizeable trait - though this could be undesireable with the introduction of impregnable) aswell as provide flat weapondmg instead of a 12% incrase.
I don´t think having rolldodge provide the same dmg mitigation block does is going to help any.
Well, that's really more of a NB thing than medium armor - a NB in heavy armor can shadow image+cloak just as well as medium armor, if not better (as they can actually get quite a lot of magicka returns from Constitution). The difference is that they don't have to.
If not damage mitigation, how do you make roll dodge even a remotely useful defense tool against something like Warden for example, whose damage is 99% undodgeable? Their main spammable ability that hits harder than Surprise Attack goes through dodge, all their DoTs go through dodge, Shalks go through dodge (and cloak, and stun you if they're from magicka warden) - the only things you can dodge vs warden are light/heavy attacks.
It's pretty much the same vs Templars & DKs (whose damage is also for the most part unaffected by any dodge rolling). Sorcs & NBs (in that order) do still have damage you can avoid, but that's 2 out of 5 classes.
All this comes back to a single skill, the only skill a warden has to do any kind of relative damage. You just wanna make anyone who's made a dps mag warden completely useless just because you died to one.
Their dot isan't that strong, and any with skill can avoid the shalks.
Also, if you think Warden is strong only because they're ridiculously strong against medium armor - you're badly mistaken. Magicka Warden has possibly the strongest burst combo in the game and awesome self heals - I've spent decent chunk of time playing mine.
It is far from balanced vs medium armor (there's absolutely nothing you can do to survive vs birds, shalks & DoTs).
Alas, I wish it was only Wardens who ignored medium armor users' only defensive mechanic with their all skills. Templars also deal mostly undodgeable damage, as they made jabs undodgeable in Morrowind patch (jbeam & Soul Assault were already undodgeable).
Magicka DKs also deal mostly undodgeable damage with their DoTs, same with sorcs & their curses, Twilights & lightning staves (you can still dodge frags atleast!).
The only class which deals mostly dodgeable damage is Nightblade.8 -
Rex-Umbra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Those 70% passive sounds too OP and medium is only 25% less armour than heavy.Xbox GT: Rex Umbrah
GM of IMPERIUM since 2015.0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Those 70% passive sounds too OP and medium is only 25% less armour than heavy.
The difference in survivability is night & day between medium & heavy. The difference in damage is nonexistent or favouring heavy armor.
It's not only a matter of mitigation (about 7% more), but more of a combination between that and +8% healing received, as well as powerful sets that augment that (Fury, 7Th Legion etc).
Also, if 70% during roll dodge would be OP, then why is it fine while blocking (which is much easier to sustain than roll dodging)?4 -
KingJ✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Video or gtfo who you see roll dodge 15 times in a roll and then kill you.70% damage reduction during roll dodge, Ummmm, no.
Would you prefer the "0% damage reduction, avoid nothing and drain your own stamina" that it currently is?
If not, maybe you could elaborate on your comment?
Edit: to be more clear, in the past Roll Dodge used to avoid almost all damage (100%) and didn't have a stacking cost to it - I believe 70% would be a fair compromise especially considering no one can spam it anymore.
You must be smoking some high quality crack, I've seen nb's dodge roll 15+ times in a row and still have more then enough stam to burst someone down or sprint away.
2 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The problem is NB has the tools to effectively bypass the cooldown on costincrease for dodge (shade + cloak) against a single opponent.<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 502 -
SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The same way NB are capable of waiting out the cooldown in cloak, they are also capable of cloaking through most of the undodgeable stuff, survive critical moments when dodge is impossible (or not effective) and heal back to full from criting vigor or rally.
Basically all these things that make medium nearly unplayable (or at least very hard to deal with) are completely negated by cloak. So there are only 2 obvious (and infinite yet uncovered) solutions and both would make blood of some people boil. Either severely nerf cloak or significantly buff dodge roll mimicking what cloak offers (which without invisibility is hard alone) and then make one big buff/nerf to medium/dodge rolling (depends on the choice).Edited by SodanTok on July 17, 2017 8:32PM2 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭The same way NB are capable of waiting out the cooldown in cloak, they are also capable of cloaking through most of the undodgeable stuff, survive critical moments when dodge is impossible (or not effective) and heal back to full from criting vigor or rally.
Basically all these things that make medium nearly unplayable (or at least very hard to deal with) are completely negated by cloak. So there are only 2 obvious (and infinite yet uncovered) solutions and both would make blood of some people boil. Either severely nerf cloak or significantly buff dodge roll mimicking what cloak offers (which without invisibility is hard alone) and then make one big buff/nerf to medium/dodge rolling (depends on the choice).
Except that much like dodge roll, cloak also is unusable or bugs out atleast half the time.
Things that break cloak: Shadow Image, certain DK DoTs (not sure which), occasionally light attacks & Assassin's Will (unsure what causes the latter two to break it - sometimes cloak works sometimes it doesn't).
And when it's practically unusable and only drains your magicka: vs Hurricane/Boundless Storm, Grothdarr, Templar in melee range, DK in melee range, Warden who can actually aim Shalks
...and then there's the fact that you can't cloak much at all as stamina NB, even with health+magicka & stam regen food.
Oh, and a plethora of other counters such as mark target, det pots (personally got these hotkeyed, but I don't even want to use them in duels as it feels like cheating), steel tornado (really good in stamblade vs stamblade duels), magelight etc etc
In short: no, cloak is absolutely not too strong. It's bugged and needs fixing, nothing else.Edited by DDuke on July 17, 2017 8:43PM3 -
SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The same way NB are capable of waiting out the cooldown in cloak, they are also capable of cloaking through most of the undodgeable stuff, survive critical moments when dodge is impossible (or not effective) and heal back to full from criting vigor or rally.
Basically all these things that make medium nearly unplayable (or at least very hard to deal with) are completely negated by cloak. So there are only 2 obvious (and infinite yet uncovered) solutions and both would make blood of some people boil. Either severely nerf cloak or significantly buff dodge roll mimicking what cloak offers (which without invisibility is hard alone) and then make one big buff/nerf to medium/dodge rolling (depends on the choice).
Except that much like dodge roll, cloak also is unusable or bugs out atleast half the time.
Things that break cloak: Shadow Image, certain DK DoTs (not sure which), occasionally light attacks & Assassin's Will (unsure what causes the latter two to break it - sometimes cloak works sometimes it doesn't).
And when it's practically unusable and only drains your magicka: vs Hurricane/Boundless Storm, Grothdarr, Templar in melee range, DK in melee range, Warden who can actually aim Shalks
...and then there's the fact that you can't cloak much at all as stamina NB, even with health+magicka & stam regen food.
Oh, and a plethora of other counters such as mark target, det pots (personally got these hotkeyed, but I don't even want to use them in duels as it feels like cheating), steel tornado (really good in stamblade vs stamblade duels), magelight etc etc
In short: no, cloak is absolutely not too strong. It's bugged and needs fixing, nothing else.
Have you played NB since Morrowind? It got sooo much better (or maybe it was homestead patch). You can rely on it working at least 80% of the time now. Also you can cloak pretty freely. At least now during proc set meta you can allow yourself to have better magicka/magicka regen.
All other counter are either very very rare or not reliable. Go fight now any stam NB, they are having field day in this patch. So no and yes. Cloak alone may not be absolutely too strong, but the combo with dodge roll is absolutely strong and that is literally the sole reason why is dodge roll the way it is and why while it is not very great, half the forum would like to nerf it even more.
This is just reverse Cliff racer problem. While half the people cry for it to be dodgeable again, warden players would literally sit and watch nightblades just killing them. Having nothing to fight against them.
Same with soul assault. Everybody is defending that ulti for the 2sec damage nightblades has to eat, while every other medium players just has to accept the 4sec of death or either complete stamina loss.Edited by SodanTok on July 17, 2017 9:09PM2 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭The same way NB are capable of waiting out the cooldown in cloak, they are also capable of cloaking through most of the undodgeable stuff, survive critical moments when dodge is impossible (or not effective) and heal back to full from criting vigor or rally.
Basically all these things that make medium nearly unplayable (or at least very hard to deal with) are completely negated by cloak. So there are only 2 obvious (and infinite yet uncovered) solutions and both would make blood of some people boil. Either severely nerf cloak or significantly buff dodge roll mimicking what cloak offers (which without invisibility is hard alone) and then make one big buff/nerf to medium/dodge rolling (depends on the choice).
Except that much like dodge roll, cloak also is unusable or bugs out atleast half the time.
Things that break cloak: Shadow Image, certain DK DoTs (not sure which), occasionally light attacks & Assassin's Will (unsure what causes the latter two to break it - sometimes cloak works sometimes it doesn't).
And when it's practically unusable and only drains your magicka: vs Hurricane/Boundless Storm, Grothdarr, Templar in melee range, DK in melee range, Warden who can actually aim Shalks
...and then there's the fact that you can't cloak much at all as stamina NB, even with health+magicka & stam regen food.
Oh, and a plethora of other counters such as mark target, det pots (personally got these hotkeyed, but I don't even want to use them in duels as it feels like cheating), steel tornado (really good in stamblade vs stamblade duels), magelight etc etc
In short: no, cloak is absolutely not too strong. It's bugged and needs fixing, nothing else.
Have you played NB since Morrowind? It got sooo much better (or maybe it was homestead patch). You can rely on it working at least 80% of the time now. Also you can cloak pretty freely. At least now during proc set meta you can allow yourself to have better magicka/magicka regen.
All other counter are either very very rare or not reliable. Go fight now any stam NB, they are having field day in this patch. So no and yes. Cloak alone may not be absolutely too strong, but the combo with dodge roll is absolutely strong and that is literally the sole reason why is dodge roll the way it is and why while it is not very great, half the forum would like to nerf it even more.
I've spent 10+ hours/day on my NB for the last two months and done hundreds of duels just during the past couple of days alone - cloak is still getting broken by a lot of things (@Ragnaroek93 can confirm this) - especially Shadow Image, which just "sees you" through cloak and keeps attacking. I unslot the skill every time I duel another stamblade.
Also, I haven't found the counters to cloak rare at all - they might be in open world but not in duels vs competent players.
You can count on almost every single magicka DK popping you out with Volatile Armor for example & templars will be permanently stuck on you with sweeps.
This is not a new development however, it's been like this for years in duels (in open world it's a different story).4 -
SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
I said most not all. You can cloak Soul assault after 1/2 ~ 2/3 of its duration. You can cloak damage dealt to you while you have endless fury on you, potentially delaying it and making it expire while also gaining more health during the cloak.Edited by SodanTok on July 17, 2017 9:13PM1 -
SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The same way NB are capable of waiting out the cooldown in cloak, they are also capable of cloaking through most of the undodgeable stuff, survive critical moments when dodge is impossible (or not effective) and heal back to full from criting vigor or rally.
Basically all these things that make medium nearly unplayable (or at least very hard to deal with) are completely negated by cloak. So there are only 2 obvious (and infinite yet uncovered) solutions and both would make blood of some people boil. Either severely nerf cloak or significantly buff dodge roll mimicking what cloak offers (which without invisibility is hard alone) and then make one big buff/nerf to medium/dodge rolling (depends on the choice).
Except that much like dodge roll, cloak also is unusable or bugs out atleast half the time.
Things that break cloak: Shadow Image, certain DK DoTs (not sure which), occasionally light attacks & Assassin's Will (unsure what causes the latter two to break it - sometimes cloak works sometimes it doesn't).
And when it's practically unusable and only drains your magicka: vs Hurricane/Boundless Storm, Grothdarr, Templar in melee range, DK in melee range, Warden who can actually aim Shalks
...and then there's the fact that you can't cloak much at all as stamina NB, even with health+magicka & stam regen food.
Oh, and a plethora of other counters such as mark target, det pots (personally got these hotkeyed, but I don't even want to use them in duels as it feels like cheating), steel tornado (really good in stamblade vs stamblade duels), magelight etc etc
In short: no, cloak is absolutely not too strong. It's bugged and needs fixing, nothing else.
Have you played NB since Morrowind? It got sooo much better (or maybe it was homestead patch). You can rely on it working at least 80% of the time now. Also you can cloak pretty freely. At least now during proc set meta you can allow yourself to have better magicka/magicka regen.
All other counter are either very very rare or not reliable. Go fight now any stam NB, they are having field day in this patch. So no and yes. Cloak alone may not be absolutely too strong, but the combo with dodge roll is absolutely strong and that is literally the sole reason why is dodge roll the way it is and why while it is not very great, half the forum would like to nerf it even more.
I've spent 10+ hours/day on my NB for the last two months and done hundreds of duels just during the past couple of days alone - cloak is still getting broken by a lot of things (@Ragnaroek93 can confirm this) - especially Shadow Image, which just "sees you" through cloak and keeps attacking. I unslot the skill every time I duel another stamblade.
Also, I haven't found the counters to cloak rare at all - they might be in open world but not in duels vs competent players.
You can count on almost every single magicka DK popping you out with Volatile Armor for example & templars will be permanently stuck on you with sweeps.
This is not a new development however, it's been like this for years in duels (in open world it's a different story).
Duels mean nothing. You can prepare in duel for your opponent. That makes huge difference.
Also cloak getting broken by "a lot' of things is much much less than the lot of things it was half a year ago. And current meta allows you many times recloak after getting the cloak broken. I think you are missing the point in all of it. Even if cloak is half as good as it could be because of bugs, it still offer great synergy with dodge roll. Something no other class is capable off (partly sorc with streak).Edited by SodanTok on July 17, 2017 9:20PM2 -
KingJ✭✭✭✭✭
✭I wish my cloak worked that well.It still still brokes over stupid ability. Its still 50/50 at times for me.3 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭The same way NB are capable of waiting out the cooldown in cloak, they are also capable of cloaking through most of the undodgeable stuff, survive critical moments when dodge is impossible (or not effective) and heal back to full from criting vigor or rally.
Basically all these things that make medium nearly unplayable (or at least very hard to deal with) are completely negated by cloak. So there are only 2 obvious (and infinite yet uncovered) solutions and both would make blood of some people boil. Either severely nerf cloak or significantly buff dodge roll mimicking what cloak offers (which without invisibility is hard alone) and then make one big buff/nerf to medium/dodge rolling (depends on the choice).
Except that much like dodge roll, cloak also is unusable or bugs out atleast half the time.
Things that break cloak: Shadow Image, certain DK DoTs (not sure which), occasionally light attacks & Assassin's Will (unsure what causes the latter two to break it - sometimes cloak works sometimes it doesn't).
And when it's practically unusable and only drains your magicka: vs Hurricane/Boundless Storm, Grothdarr, Templar in melee range, DK in melee range, Warden who can actually aim Shalks
...and then there's the fact that you can't cloak much at all as stamina NB, even with health+magicka & stam regen food.
Oh, and a plethora of other counters such as mark target, det pots (personally got these hotkeyed, but I don't even want to use them in duels as it feels like cheating), steel tornado (really good in stamblade vs stamblade duels), magelight etc etc
In short: no, cloak is absolutely not too strong. It's bugged and needs fixing, nothing else.
Have you played NB since Morrowind? It got sooo much better (or maybe it was homestead patch). You can rely on it working at least 80% of the time now. Also you can cloak pretty freely. At least now during proc set meta you can allow yourself to have better magicka/magicka regen.
All other counter are either very very rare or not reliable. Go fight now any stam NB, they are having field day in this patch. So no and yes. Cloak alone may not be absolutely too strong, but the combo with dodge roll is absolutely strong and that is literally the sole reason why is dodge roll the way it is and why while it is not very great, half the forum would like to nerf it even more.
I've spent 10+ hours/day on my NB for the last two months and done hundreds of duels just during the past couple of days alone - cloak is still getting broken by a lot of things (@Ragnaroek93 can confirm this) - especially Shadow Image, which just "sees you" through cloak and keeps attacking. I unslot the skill every time I duel another stamblade.
Also, I haven't found the counters to cloak rare at all - they might be in open world but not in duels vs competent players.
You can count on almost every single magicka DK popping you out with Volatile Armor for example & templars will be permanently stuck on you with sweeps.
This is not a new development however, it's been like this for years in duels (in open world it's a different story).
Duels mean nothing. You can prepare in duel for your opponent. That makes huge difference.
Also cloak getting broken by "a lot' of things is much much less than the lot of things it was half a year ago. And current meta allows you many times recloak after getting the cloak broken. I think you are missing the point in all of it. Even if cloak is half as good as it could be because of bugs, it still offer great synergy with dodge roll. Something no other class is capable off (partly sorc with streak).
I'm not saying it's a bad skill - there's a reason I still keep it on my bar (even with all the bugs & unreliability), but it's far, far from what I'd call overpowered or something that requires nerfing.
Only change I'd make is adding some kind of faint visual cue where a cloaked person is moving & remove obvious the "Miss, Miss, Miss" *** that pops up on screen where a cloaked NB is moving (if you have a DoT up on the NB) when you have in game combat text enabled.
Even back when cloak worked 100% of time as supposed to (and removed DoTs entirely) it wasn't "op" - you had around 50/50 match ups as NB against other top players (be it sorc or DK or templar, didn't matter). These days cloak is a shadow of its former self.
Still useful sometimes though, but just a big source of frustration when it isn't (when has this ever been the case with Hardened Ward for example?).
Also, you say duels mean nothing - but dueling & 1v1 is the cornerstone of balance. You can't expect to 1vX good players that you fail to 1v1 - which is exactly why 1v1 balance needs to be in place first and foremost (or you end up with a class only good against bad players).Edited by DDuke on July 17, 2017 10:36PM2 -
SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The same way NB are capable of waiting out the cooldown in cloak, they are also capable of cloaking through most of the undodgeable stuff, survive critical moments when dodge is impossible (or not effective) and heal back to full from criting vigor or rally.
Basically all these things that make medium nearly unplayable (or at least very hard to deal with) are completely negated by cloak. So there are only 2 obvious (and infinite yet uncovered) solutions and both would make blood of some people boil. Either severely nerf cloak or significantly buff dodge roll mimicking what cloak offers (which without invisibility is hard alone) and then make one big buff/nerf to medium/dodge rolling (depends on the choice).
Except that much like dodge roll, cloak also is unusable or bugs out atleast half the time.
Things that break cloak: Shadow Image, certain DK DoTs (not sure which), occasionally light attacks & Assassin's Will (unsure what causes the latter two to break it - sometimes cloak works sometimes it doesn't).
And when it's practically unusable and only drains your magicka: vs Hurricane/Boundless Storm, Grothdarr, Templar in melee range, DK in melee range, Warden who can actually aim Shalks
...and then there's the fact that you can't cloak much at all as stamina NB, even with health+magicka & stam regen food.
Oh, and a plethora of other counters such as mark target, det pots (personally got these hotkeyed, but I don't even want to use them in duels as it feels like cheating), steel tornado (really good in stamblade vs stamblade duels), magelight etc etc
In short: no, cloak is absolutely not too strong. It's bugged and needs fixing, nothing else.
Have you played NB since Morrowind? It got sooo much better (or maybe it was homestead patch). You can rely on it working at least 80% of the time now. Also you can cloak pretty freely. At least now during proc set meta you can allow yourself to have better magicka/magicka regen.
All other counter are either very very rare or not reliable. Go fight now any stam NB, they are having field day in this patch. So no and yes. Cloak alone may not be absolutely too strong, but the combo with dodge roll is absolutely strong and that is literally the sole reason why is dodge roll the way it is and why while it is not very great, half the forum would like to nerf it even more.
I've spent 10+ hours/day on my NB for the last two months and done hundreds of duels just during the past couple of days alone - cloak is still getting broken by a lot of things (@Ragnaroek93 can confirm this) - especially Shadow Image, which just "sees you" through cloak and keeps attacking. I unslot the skill every time I duel another stamblade.
Also, I haven't found the counters to cloak rare at all - they might be in open world but not in duels vs competent players.
You can count on almost every single magicka DK popping you out with Volatile Armor for example & templars will be permanently stuck on you with sweeps.
This is not a new development however, it's been like this for years in duels (in open world it's a different story).
Duels mean nothing. You can prepare in duel for your opponent. That makes huge difference.
Also cloak getting broken by "a lot' of things is much much less than the lot of things it was half a year ago. And current meta allows you many times recloak after getting the cloak broken. I think you are missing the point in all of it. Even if cloak is half as good as it could be because of bugs, it still offer great synergy with dodge roll. Something no other class is capable off (partly sorc with streak).
I'm not saying it's a bad skill - there's a reason I still keep it on my bar (even with all the bugs & unreliability), but it's far, far from what I'd call overpowered or something that requires nerfing.
Only change I'd make is adding some kind of faint visual cue where a cloaked person is moving & remove obvious the "Miss, Miss, Miss" *** that pops up on screen where a cloaked NB is moving (if you have a DoT up on the NB) when you have in game combat text enabled.
Even back when cloak worked 100% of time as supposed to (and removed DoTs entirely) it wasn't "op" - you had around 50/50 match ups as NB against other top players (be it sorc or DK or templar, didn't matter). These days cloak is a shadow of its former self.
Still useful sometimes though, but just a big source of frustration when it isn't (when has this ever been the case with Hardened Ward for example?).
Also, you say duels mean nothing - but dueling & 1v1 is the cornerstone of balance. You can't expect to 1vX good players that you fail to 1v1 - which is exactly why 1v1 balance needs to be in place first and foremost (or you end up with a class only good against bad players).
I think you are still missing the point. I never said cloak is strong. I said it needs nerf because unless it gets one dodge rolling alone will never be strong. NB 'abuse' dodge rolls to the maximum. And can deal with almost all disadvantages that are set in place to make dodge rolling balanced. Dodge rolling will never get buffed as long as current mechanics regarding dodge rolling and cloak are in place.
btw 1v1 is not cornerstone of balance. You may think it should, but it simply is not. Dont look at me for explanation, this is simple the way the game is balanced. Maybe with BGs now the ZoS will look closely how the small scale is balanced and make changes from there. But duels are just not it and will never be it.1 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭The same way NB are capable of waiting out the cooldown in cloak, they are also capable of cloaking through most of the undodgeable stuff, survive critical moments when dodge is impossible (or not effective) and heal back to full from criting vigor or rally.
Basically all these things that make medium nearly unplayable (or at least very hard to deal with) are completely negated by cloak. So there are only 2 obvious (and infinite yet uncovered) solutions and both would make blood of some people boil. Either severely nerf cloak or significantly buff dodge roll mimicking what cloak offers (which without invisibility is hard alone) and then make one big buff/nerf to medium/dodge rolling (depends on the choice).
Except that much like dodge roll, cloak also is unusable or bugs out atleast half the time.
Things that break cloak: Shadow Image, certain DK DoTs (not sure which), occasionally light attacks & Assassin's Will (unsure what causes the latter two to break it - sometimes cloak works sometimes it doesn't).
And when it's practically unusable and only drains your magicka: vs Hurricane/Boundless Storm, Grothdarr, Templar in melee range, DK in melee range, Warden who can actually aim Shalks
...and then there's the fact that you can't cloak much at all as stamina NB, even with health+magicka & stam regen food.
Oh, and a plethora of other counters such as mark target, det pots (personally got these hotkeyed, but I don't even want to use them in duels as it feels like cheating), steel tornado (really good in stamblade vs stamblade duels), magelight etc etc
In short: no, cloak is absolutely not too strong. It's bugged and needs fixing, nothing else.
Have you played NB since Morrowind? It got sooo much better (or maybe it was homestead patch). You can rely on it working at least 80% of the time now. Also you can cloak pretty freely. At least now during proc set meta you can allow yourself to have better magicka/magicka regen.
All other counter are either very very rare or not reliable. Go fight now any stam NB, they are having field day in this patch. So no and yes. Cloak alone may not be absolutely too strong, but the combo with dodge roll is absolutely strong and that is literally the sole reason why is dodge roll the way it is and why while it is not very great, half the forum would like to nerf it even more.
I've spent 10+ hours/day on my NB for the last two months and done hundreds of duels just during the past couple of days alone - cloak is still getting broken by a lot of things (@Ragnaroek93 can confirm this) - especially Shadow Image, which just "sees you" through cloak and keeps attacking. I unslot the skill every time I duel another stamblade.
Also, I haven't found the counters to cloak rare at all - they might be in open world but not in duels vs competent players.
You can count on almost every single magicka DK popping you out with Volatile Armor for example & templars will be permanently stuck on you with sweeps.
This is not a new development however, it's been like this for years in duels (in open world it's a different story).
Duels mean nothing. You can prepare in duel for your opponent. That makes huge difference.
Also cloak getting broken by "a lot' of things is much much less than the lot of things it was half a year ago. And current meta allows you many times recloak after getting the cloak broken. I think you are missing the point in all of it. Even if cloak is half as good as it could be because of bugs, it still offer great synergy with dodge roll. Something no other class is capable off (partly sorc with streak).
I'm not saying it's a bad skill - there's a reason I still keep it on my bar (even with all the bugs & unreliability), but it's far, far from what I'd call overpowered or something that requires nerfing.
Only change I'd make is adding some kind of faint visual cue where a cloaked person is moving & remove obvious the "Miss, Miss, Miss" *** that pops up on screen where a cloaked NB is moving (if you have a DoT up on the NB) when you have in game combat text enabled.
Even back when cloak worked 100% of time as supposed to (and removed DoTs entirely) it wasn't "op" - you had around 50/50 match ups as NB against other top players (be it sorc or DK or templar, didn't matter). These days cloak is a shadow of its former self.
Still useful sometimes though, but just a big source of frustration when it isn't (when has this ever been the case with Hardened Ward for example?).
Also, you say duels mean nothing - but dueling & 1v1 is the cornerstone of balance. You can't expect to 1vX good players that you fail to 1v1 - which is exactly why 1v1 balance needs to be in place first and foremost (or you end up with a class only good against bad players).
I think you are still missing the point. I never said cloak is strong. I said it needs nerf because unless it gets one dodge rolling alone will never be strong. NB 'abuse' dodge rolls to the maximum. And can deal with almost all disadvantages that are set in place to make dodge rolling balanced. Dodge rolling will never get buffed as long as current mechanics regarding dodge rolling and cloak are in place.
btw 1v1 is not cornerstone of balance. You may think it should, but it simply is not. Dont look at me for explanation, this is simple the way the game is balanced. Maybe with BGs now the ZoS will look closely how the small scale is balanced and make changes from there. But duels are just not it and will never be it.
Well, I don't feel like I'm "abusing" dodge rolling even when cloak works properly because dodge rolling as a mechanic is useless most of the time and accomplishes nothing besides draining my stamina.
I could have 0 stamina cost on dodge roll and it wouldn't increase my win rate against 3 out of the 5 classes at all.
Where the "cloak-dodge roll" play is most prevalent is actually in medium stamblade vs medium stamblade duels - and just my personal opinion: those duels are the only enjoyable ones at the moment.
They don't last forever despite the cloaking & dodge rolling because no one can sustain infinitely (or if you can, you can't outheal the DoTs & burst). Those are easily the most balanced duels out there at the moment - and sadly almost the only ones where medium armor can remain competitive & fun alternative to light/heavy.
But yeah... the game isn't balanced for 1v1, that's abundantly clear. In fact, I'd make the argument that it isn't balanced at all as a direct consequence.
It used to be though - and I really don't understand why Zenimax just makes things worse & worse patch after patch. The 1v1 balance of beta->Orsinium~ was sacrificed for... what exactly?
Can you honestly claim the PvP is better these days?3 -
SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The same way NB are capable of waiting out the cooldown in cloak, they are also capable of cloaking through most of the undodgeable stuff, survive critical moments when dodge is impossible (or not effective) and heal back to full from criting vigor or rally.
Basically all these things that make medium nearly unplayable (or at least very hard to deal with) are completely negated by cloak. So there are only 2 obvious (and infinite yet uncovered) solutions and both would make blood of some people boil. Either severely nerf cloak or significantly buff dodge roll mimicking what cloak offers (which without invisibility is hard alone) and then make one big buff/nerf to medium/dodge rolling (depends on the choice).
Except that much like dodge roll, cloak also is unusable or bugs out atleast half the time.
Things that break cloak: Shadow Image, certain DK DoTs (not sure which), occasionally light attacks & Assassin's Will (unsure what causes the latter two to break it - sometimes cloak works sometimes it doesn't).
And when it's practically unusable and only drains your magicka: vs Hurricane/Boundless Storm, Grothdarr, Templar in melee range, DK in melee range, Warden who can actually aim Shalks
...and then there's the fact that you can't cloak much at all as stamina NB, even with health+magicka & stam regen food.
Oh, and a plethora of other counters such as mark target, det pots (personally got these hotkeyed, but I don't even want to use them in duels as it feels like cheating), steel tornado (really good in stamblade vs stamblade duels), magelight etc etc
In short: no, cloak is absolutely not too strong. It's bugged and needs fixing, nothing else.
Have you played NB since Morrowind? It got sooo much better (or maybe it was homestead patch). You can rely on it working at least 80% of the time now. Also you can cloak pretty freely. At least now during proc set meta you can allow yourself to have better magicka/magicka regen.
All other counter are either very very rare or not reliable. Go fight now any stam NB, they are having field day in this patch. So no and yes. Cloak alone may not be absolutely too strong, but the combo with dodge roll is absolutely strong and that is literally the sole reason why is dodge roll the way it is and why while it is not very great, half the forum would like to nerf it even more.
I've spent 10+ hours/day on my NB for the last two months and done hundreds of duels just during the past couple of days alone - cloak is still getting broken by a lot of things (@Ragnaroek93 can confirm this) - especially Shadow Image, which just "sees you" through cloak and keeps attacking. I unslot the skill every time I duel another stamblade.
Also, I haven't found the counters to cloak rare at all - they might be in open world but not in duels vs competent players.
You can count on almost every single magicka DK popping you out with Volatile Armor for example & templars will be permanently stuck on you with sweeps.
This is not a new development however, it's been like this for years in duels (in open world it's a different story).
Duels mean nothing. You can prepare in duel for your opponent. That makes huge difference.
Also cloak getting broken by "a lot' of things is much much less than the lot of things it was half a year ago. And current meta allows you many times recloak after getting the cloak broken. I think you are missing the point in all of it. Even if cloak is half as good as it could be because of bugs, it still offer great synergy with dodge roll. Something no other class is capable off (partly sorc with streak).
I'm not saying it's a bad skill - there's a reason I still keep it on my bar (even with all the bugs & unreliability), but it's far, far from what I'd call overpowered or something that requires nerfing.
Only change I'd make is adding some kind of faint visual cue where a cloaked person is moving & remove obvious the "Miss, Miss, Miss" *** that pops up on screen where a cloaked NB is moving (if you have a DoT up on the NB) when you have in game combat text enabled.
Even back when cloak worked 100% of time as supposed to (and removed DoTs entirely) it wasn't "op" - you had around 50/50 match ups as NB against other top players (be it sorc or DK or templar, didn't matter). These days cloak is a shadow of its former self.
Still useful sometimes though, but just a big source of frustration when it isn't (when has this ever been the case with Hardened Ward for example?).
Also, you say duels mean nothing - but dueling & 1v1 is the cornerstone of balance. You can't expect to 1vX good players that you fail to 1v1 - which is exactly why 1v1 balance needs to be in place first and foremost (or you end up with a class only good against bad players).
I think you are still missing the point. I never said cloak is strong. I said it needs nerf because unless it gets one dodge rolling alone will never be strong. NB 'abuse' dodge rolls to the maximum. And can deal with almost all disadvantages that are set in place to make dodge rolling balanced. Dodge rolling will never get buffed as long as current mechanics regarding dodge rolling and cloak are in place.
btw 1v1 is not cornerstone of balance. You may think it should, but it simply is not. Dont look at me for explanation, this is simple the way the game is balanced. Maybe with BGs now the ZoS will look closely how the small scale is balanced and make changes from there. But duels are just not it and will never be it.
Well, I don't feel like I'm "abusing" dodge rolling even when cloak works properly because dodge rolling as a mechanic is useless most of the time and accomplishes nothing besides draining my stamina.
I could have 0 stamina cost on dodge roll and it wouldn't increase my win rate against 3 out of the 5 classes at all.
Where the "cloak-dodge roll" play is most prevalent is actually in medium stamblade vs medium stamblade duels - and just my personal opinion: those duels are the only enjoyable ones at the moment.
They don't last forever despite the cloaking & dodge rolling because no one can sustain infinitely (or if you can, you can't outheal the DoTs & burst). Those are easily the most balanced duels out there at the moment - and sadly almost the only ones where medium armor can remain competitive & fun alternative to light/heavy.
But yeah... the game isn't balanced for 1v1, that's abundantly clear. In fact, I'd make the argument that it isn't balanced at all as a direct consequence.
It used to be though - and I really don't understand why Zenimax just makes things worse & worse patch after patch. The 1v1 balance of beta->Orsinium~ was sacrificed for... what exactly?
Can you honestly claim the PvP is better these days?
Then maybe you dont play nonNB medium armor? Either one or other, because dodge roll on NB that can properly cloak (so at least once in 6 seconds) is day and night compared to dodge rolling on for example warden. What NB accomplishes with it is simply what ZoS considers the top (and half of the forum already OP). Everyone else gets to scrape the barrel. More so once everyone stops running viper and notices they have either low damage or low sustain.
To answer your (probably rhetorical) last question. I do think the PVP is and with next patch probably getting better than anything in last year (maybe not good enough for people remembering the old days). Lags are what is killing it for me.Edited by SodanTok on July 17, 2017 11:35PM1 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭The same way NB are capable of waiting out the cooldown in cloak, they are also capable of cloaking through most of the undodgeable stuff, survive critical moments when dodge is impossible (or not effective) and heal back to full from criting vigor or rally.
Basically all these things that make medium nearly unplayable (or at least very hard to deal with) are completely negated by cloak. So there are only 2 obvious (and infinite yet uncovered) solutions and both would make blood of some people boil. Either severely nerf cloak or significantly buff dodge roll mimicking what cloak offers (which without invisibility is hard alone) and then make one big buff/nerf to medium/dodge rolling (depends on the choice).
Except that much like dodge roll, cloak also is unusable or bugs out atleast half the time.
Things that break cloak: Shadow Image, certain DK DoTs (not sure which), occasionally light attacks & Assassin's Will (unsure what causes the latter two to break it - sometimes cloak works sometimes it doesn't).
And when it's practically unusable and only drains your magicka: vs Hurricane/Boundless Storm, Grothdarr, Templar in melee range, DK in melee range, Warden who can actually aim Shalks
...and then there's the fact that you can't cloak much at all as stamina NB, even with health+magicka & stam regen food.
Oh, and a plethora of other counters such as mark target, det pots (personally got these hotkeyed, but I don't even want to use them in duels as it feels like cheating), steel tornado (really good in stamblade vs stamblade duels), magelight etc etc
In short: no, cloak is absolutely not too strong. It's bugged and needs fixing, nothing else.
Have you played NB since Morrowind? It got sooo much better (or maybe it was homestead patch). You can rely on it working at least 80% of the time now. Also you can cloak pretty freely. At least now during proc set meta you can allow yourself to have better magicka/magicka regen.
All other counter are either very very rare or not reliable. Go fight now any stam NB, they are having field day in this patch. So no and yes. Cloak alone may not be absolutely too strong, but the combo with dodge roll is absolutely strong and that is literally the sole reason why is dodge roll the way it is and why while it is not very great, half the forum would like to nerf it even more.
I've spent 10+ hours/day on my NB for the last two months and done hundreds of duels just during the past couple of days alone - cloak is still getting broken by a lot of things (@Ragnaroek93 can confirm this) - especially Shadow Image, which just "sees you" through cloak and keeps attacking. I unslot the skill every time I duel another stamblade.
Also, I haven't found the counters to cloak rare at all - they might be in open world but not in duels vs competent players.
You can count on almost every single magicka DK popping you out with Volatile Armor for example & templars will be permanently stuck on you with sweeps.
This is not a new development however, it's been like this for years in duels (in open world it's a different story).
Duels mean nothing. You can prepare in duel for your opponent. That makes huge difference.
Also cloak getting broken by "a lot' of things is much much less than the lot of things it was half a year ago. And current meta allows you many times recloak after getting the cloak broken. I think you are missing the point in all of it. Even if cloak is half as good as it could be because of bugs, it still offer great synergy with dodge roll. Something no other class is capable off (partly sorc with streak).
I'm not saying it's a bad skill - there's a reason I still keep it on my bar (even with all the bugs & unreliability), but it's far, far from what I'd call overpowered or something that requires nerfing.
Only change I'd make is adding some kind of faint visual cue where a cloaked person is moving & remove obvious the "Miss, Miss, Miss" *** that pops up on screen where a cloaked NB is moving (if you have a DoT up on the NB) when you have in game combat text enabled.
Even back when cloak worked 100% of time as supposed to (and removed DoTs entirely) it wasn't "op" - you had around 50/50 match ups as NB against other top players (be it sorc or DK or templar, didn't matter). These days cloak is a shadow of its former self.
Still useful sometimes though, but just a big source of frustration when it isn't (when has this ever been the case with Hardened Ward for example?).
Also, you say duels mean nothing - but dueling & 1v1 is the cornerstone of balance. You can't expect to 1vX good players that you fail to 1v1 - which is exactly why 1v1 balance needs to be in place first and foremost (or you end up with a class only good against bad players).
I think you are still missing the point. I never said cloak is strong. I said it needs nerf because unless it gets one dodge rolling alone will never be strong. NB 'abuse' dodge rolls to the maximum. And can deal with almost all disadvantages that are set in place to make dodge rolling balanced. Dodge rolling will never get buffed as long as current mechanics regarding dodge rolling and cloak are in place.
btw 1v1 is not cornerstone of balance. You may think it should, but it simply is not. Dont look at me for explanation, this is simple the way the game is balanced. Maybe with BGs now the ZoS will look closely how the small scale is balanced and make changes from there. But duels are just not it and will never be it.
Well, I don't feel like I'm "abusing" dodge rolling even when cloak works properly because dodge rolling as a mechanic is useless most of the time and accomplishes nothing besides draining my stamina.
I could have 0 stamina cost on dodge roll and it wouldn't increase my win rate against 3 out of the 5 classes at all.
Where the "cloak-dodge roll" play is most prevalent is actually in medium stamblade vs medium stamblade duels - and just my personal opinion: those duels are the only enjoyable ones at the moment.
They don't last forever despite the cloaking & dodge rolling because no one can sustain infinitely (or if you can, you can't outheal the DoTs & burst). Those are easily the most balanced duels out there at the moment - and sadly almost the only ones where medium armor can remain competitive & fun alternative to light/heavy.
But yeah... the game isn't balanced for 1v1, that's abundantly clear. In fact, I'd make the argument that it isn't balanced at all as a direct consequence.
It used to be though - and I really don't understand why Zenimax just makes things worse & worse patch after patch. The 1v1 balance of beta->Orsinium~ was sacrificed for... what exactly?
Can you honestly claim the PvP is better these days?
Then maybe you dont play nonNB medium armor? Either one or other, because dodge roll on NB that can properly cloak (so at least once in 6 seconds) is day and night compared to dodge rolling on for example warden. What NB accomplishes with it is simply what ZoS considers the top (and half of the forum already OP). Everyone else gets to scrape the barrel. More so once everyone stops running viper and notices they have either low damage or low sustain.
To answer your (probably rhetorical) last question. I do think the PVP is and with next patch probably getting better than anything in last year (maybe not good enough for people remembering the old days). Lags are what is killing it for me.
Well, yeah - other classes also suffer from medium armor's deficiencies. It's certainly a bit easier for NB in those few fights where you can cloak. But I'd say that's more of a problem with dodge roll being useless rather than cloak overperforming.
You can see this in the current heavy armor builds - I don't see many heavy stamblades even using cloak at all and all other heavy armor stam builds are just as competitive currently.
Though I'd say NB has better escape options than other classes stam builds, mostly thanks to Shadow Image.
Last question wasn't really rhetorical, just curious :P
I personally liked PvP better even in 2014 before we had stamina morph of Surprise Attack or even Vigor as a self heal - 1v1 was balanced because everyone could run out of resources (soft caps on stats played a big part I imagine) & roll dodge/cloak were a reliable defense. And yeah, medium armor did better in duels back then, before we even had a self heal... imagine that
Edited by DDuke on July 18, 2017 1:16AM1 -
Riggsy✭✭✭✭Want to fix medium in pvp?
How about making each armor ability require the player to wear 5 pieces of it to use. That would take care of all the heavy armor wearers using shuffle while enticing people to wear medium to get it.Edited by Riggsy on August 6, 2017 3:14PMMMAGA - We Made Medium Armor Great AgainEvasion: Casting this ability and its morphs now requires that you wear 5 pieces of Medium Armor.
Woe Biden - Mule
Donald Thump - Mule
M'aiq Pence - Mule2 -
Narvuntien✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The straight movement speed buff would be great. As a full medium armor user (ganker) I love switching to bow back bar.. roll dodging and running into the sunset.
The problem with requiring 5 pieces to use shuffle is that it is a staple of PVE tank builds. I think the best way would to have a it have a very low base duration and a much greater buff in duration for using medium armor.
I get what you mean about not having a way to avoid damage or healing or shielding when faced with something like a destructo ulti (or 5). Damage reduction after roll dodging with an internal cooldown so you cannot just roll dodge forever but enough to so something about being in the middle of destructo ulti or getting cursed or roll dodging into mines etc.0 -
Ragnaroek93✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭The problem is NB has the tools to effectively bypass the cooldown on costincrease for dodge (shade + cloak) against a single opponent.
It depends. I for example play without proc sets (and without shadow walker too) and I have to give up a lot of damage and crit to be able to "permacloak" (since stamina doesn't have a sustain set with a 5p bonus which basically gives 5p boni
), which is still useless in many situations (if I get marked, detect pots or someone uses detect poison on me for example) and less effective against certain classes, templars or stamina sorcs can pull me out of cloak pretty well for example while magicka sorc has a harder time. That procblades still deal good damage despite they overstacked regen is more like a design mistake from ZOS.
However, I somehow agree that cloak is cheesy but this discussion is pretty pointless. I tried to play my nightblade without cloak and it's just not viable in the current meta (in medium armor), nightblades just don't have any stuff to survive without cloak. I remember very well when ZOS removed the purge from cloak while leaving it in a buggy state which resulted in stamblade barely being viable for months.
With the current patch notes however I have the feeling that ZOS doesn't care at all and wants every nightblade to be a Selene user who just goes on everyones nerves with spamming cloak and rooting everything with eternal hunt I don't really enjoy that playstyle but nevermind, there's nothing I can do if ZOS thinks stuff like Selene is fine. I used to think that PvP was a tragedy, but now I realize, it's a comedy.4 -
Rungar✭✭✭✭✭
✭while wearing 5pc of medium armor heavy attacks should restore both resources. The second resource restored at a 50% rate. So if you get 2500 stam you also get 1250 mag.
medium armor should be more versatile than the other two, since its medium.1 -
Strider_Roshin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Providing snare immunity after dodge rolling would be a step in the right direction as well.2
