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Light Attack + Spammable Combo Still Inferior to Heavy Attacking
LZH
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Is there any fix in the works for the outrageously high costs of spammable skills, specifically magicka ones? Why is Force Shock 2430 Magicka cost while Strife is only 1702?
ZOS responded to the heavy attack MagSorc fiasco on the PTS by making heavy attack 15% weaker and light attacks 15% stronger in hopes that the fast paced gameplay would return but it hasn't changed anything. The strongest Magicka class right now is MagSorc and they primarily heavy attack, the strongest Stamina class right now is StamDK and they also primarily heavy attack.
I was under the impression that ZOS wanted light attack builds who run regen to outperform heavy attack builds that stack fully into spell damage.
The only class right now that feels fast-paced and fun to play (at least for me) is Magicka Nightblade. They actually have the tools to be able to sustain while still primarily light attacking (low spammable cost, 3 free spell procs per 20 seconds, good sustain skill). It'd be really nice to play the other classes but it just isn't fun laying down DoTs and then heavy channeling with a lighting staff.
I think lowering spammable spell costs would make PvE more fun without affecting PvP very much.
Edited by LZH on July 14, 2017 11:24AM ZOS responded to the heavy attack MagSorc fiasco on the PTS by making heavy attack 15% weaker and light attacks 15% stronger in hopes that the fast paced gameplay would return but it hasn't changed anything. The strongest Magicka class right now is MagSorc and they primarily heavy attack, the strongest Stamina class right now is StamDK and they also primarily heavy attack.
I was under the impression that ZOS wanted light attack builds who run regen to outperform heavy attack builds that stack fully into spell damage.
The only class right now that feels fast-paced and fun to play (at least for me) is Magicka Nightblade. They actually have the tools to be able to sustain while still primarily light attacking (low spammable cost, 3 free spell procs per 20 seconds, good sustain skill). It'd be really nice to play the other classes but it just isn't fun laying down DoTs and then heavy channeling with a lighting staff.
I think lowering spammable spell costs would make PvE more fun without affecting PvP very much.
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MaselClass RepresentativeIs there any fix in the works for the outrageously high costs of spammable skills, specifically magicka ones? Why is Force Shock 2430 Magicka cost while Strife is only 1702?
ZOS responded to the heavy attack MagSorc fiasco on the PTS by making heavy attack 15% weaker and light attacks 15% stronger in hopes that the fast paced gameplay would return but it hasn't changed anything. The strongest Magicka class right now is MagSorc and they primarily heavy attack, the strongest Stamina class right now is StamDK and they also primarily heavy attack.
The only class right now that feels fast-paced and fun to play (at least for me) is Magicka Nightblade. They actually have the tools to be able to sustain while still primarily light attacking (low spammable cost, 3 free spell procs per 20 seconds, good sustain skill). It'd be really nice to play the other classes but it just isn't fun laying down DoTs and then heavy channeling with a lighting staff.
I think lowering spammable spell costs would make PvE more fun without affecting PvP very much.
I agree on this. Spammables need lower cost.... Force pulse (2700 Base cost) can cost a little more than strife (1890 Base cost) due to the side-effects it can cause, but not 800 magicka per cast... Jabs for example cost even more (2940 Base cost). Cliffracer is a little cheaper (2430 Base cost), but still too expensive to sustain it.
Applies to stamina as well, simply make Spammables cheaper (surprise attack, flurry, jabs, uppercut, snipe etc.).
I really feel that a spammable rotation should do more damage than a heavy attack rotation. Prior to morrowind that was always the case. Now it is not. Especially in vHoF with all the drain mechanics it is awful.Edited by Masel on July 14, 2017 11:02AMPC EU
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NukeAllTheThings✭✭✭✭✭Thanks for the information guys. We want to keep things fair, adjustments will be made next patch.
- Strife cost increased 50%
Edited by NukeAllTheThings on July 14, 2017 11:10AM"it's important to state that our decision to go with subscriptions is not a referendum on online game revenue models. F2P, B2P, etc. are valid, proven business models - but subscription is the one that fits ESO the best, given our commitment to freedom of gameplay, quality and long-term content delivery. Plus, players will appreciate not having to worry about being "monetized" in the middle of playing the game, which is definitely a problem that is cropping up more and more in online gaming these days." - Matt Firor10 -
LZH✭✭✭✭NukeAllTheThings wrote: »Thanks for the information guys. We want to keep things fair, adjustments will be made next patch.
- Strife cost increased 50%
What have I done?!
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casparian✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Agreed. Heavy attacking to get resources back is a slog. To experienced players, it throws all the effort we put into perfecting a seamless rotation into our faces. To new players, it doesn't feel like Elder Scrolls.
An alternative solution to reducing costs would be to increase resource returns on synergies and/or decrease cooldown times on synergy activation. This would decrease the amount of heavy attacks I have to slog through, while encouraging balanced and skillful group play as key. Activating a synergy is a lot more satisfying than holding down LMB.7-day PVP campaign regular 2016-2019, Flawless Conqueror. MagDK/stamplar/stamwarden/mageblade. Requiem, Legend, Knights of Daggerfall. Currently retired from the wars; waiting on performance improvements.0 -
Tyrobag✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Agreed. Heavy attacking to get resources back is a slog. To experienced players, it throws all the effort we put into perfecting a seamless rotation into our faces. To new players, it doesn't feel like Elder Scrolls.
An alternative solution to reducing costs would be to increase resource returns on synergies and/or decrease cooldown times on synergy activation. This would decrease the amount of heavy attacks I have to slog through, while encouraging balanced and skillful group play as key. Activating a synergy is a lot more satisfying than holding down LMB.
Then rebind attack to the X key, easy solution! :P0 -
code65536✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭NukeAllTheThings wrote: »Thanks for the information guys. We want to keep things fair, adjustments will be made next patch.
- Strife cost increased 50%
What have I done?!
What you say: Things need to be buffed to match this other nice thing.
What they hear: This nice thing in the game needs to be nerfed because how else are we to maintain our proud and newfound reputation of hostility to our player base?Nightfighters ― PC/NA and PC/EU
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seedubsrun✭✭✭✭Yeah I agree with adjusting spammables. It would have to be a reduction for stam too or that would be unfair. Stam deserves lower spam costs that magicka users since they share resources with their block, dodge, sprint.1 -
LZH✭✭✭✭seedubsrun wrote: »Yeah I agree with adjusting spammables. It would have to be a reduction for stam too or that would be unfair. Stam deserves lower spam costs that magicka users since they share resources with their block, dodge, sprint.
Agreed.Edited by LZH on July 14, 2017 7:06PM1 -
Subversus✭✭✭✭✭
✭Of course people have to bìtch about magblades, it wouldn't be a pts forum post otherwise.0 -
MisterBigglesworth✭✭✭✭✭
✭It'd be really nice to play the other classes but it just isn't fun laying down DoTs and then heavy channeling with a lighting staff.
Speak for yourself. Really we do it without like, the musical instruments. This is the only musical: the mouth. And hopefully the brain attached to the mouth. Right? The brain, more important than the mouth, is the brain. The brain is much more important.0 -
Izaki✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Are Stamina DKs really the highest damaging stamina class? I'm not convinced in the slightest. Nightblades have higher single target and Sorcs have higher AoE (while retaining comparable single target DPS).
I agree that spammables should be cheaper though.@ Izaki #PCEU
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#MoreDPSthanYou
#Stamblade1 -
NyassaV✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Strife does less damage and is available only to NBs therefore it gives people a reason to play a nightbladeFlawless Conqueror ~ Grand OverlordShe/Her ~ PC/NA | I record things for fun and for info0 -
WuffyCerulei✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Strife is a decent self heal for when you don't trust your healer enough. Also a reduce spell cost glyph is a savior for any magicka build.Edited by WuffyCerulei on July 15, 2017 12:58AMFor the love of Kyne, buff sorc. PC NACP 2100+Star-Sïnger - Khajiit Magicka Sorc - EP Grand Overlord - Flawless Conqueror vMA/vBRP/vDSA no death/vHel Ra HM/vAA HM/vSO HM/vMoL HM/vHoF HM/vAS +2/vCR+3/vSS HMs/vKA HMs/vVH/vRG Oax HM/vDSR0 -
LZH✭✭✭✭IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »Are Stamina DKs really the highest damaging stamina class? I'm not convinced in the slightest. Nightblades have higher single target and Sorcs have higher AoE (while retaining comparable single target DPS).
I agree that spammables should be cheaper though.
imgur.com/a/QVCMT
Not my parse but someone in my group. This could easily be over 60K but our group isn't at all specced to support Stamina DPS. StamDK is insanely OP right now.0 -
LZH✭✭✭✭WuffyCerulei wrote: »Strife is a decent self heal for when you don't trust your healer enough. Also a reduce spell cost glyph is a savior for any magicka build.
The problem isn't that you can't possibly sustain a MagDK, MagSorc, etc. The problem is that it isn't wise to try and do so. It is more beneficial to run maximum damage and heavy attack for your resource returns, rather than to gut your damage, and maintain a spammable rotaiton.
The reason being that the ratio of damage dealt by spammables for the amount of magicka they cost is way off. They need to be cheaper.1 -
DeHei✭✭✭✭✭I would say spammable skills shouldnt have any costs, players will allways play a build, which is sustainable and reducing sustain dont will fix it. For example i play now a full damage build and sustain it completly with 1 HA in my rotation. I never did so much damage!DeHei - EP Magicka Templar AllrounderDe Hei(Youtube)0 -
laksikus✭✭✭✭✭
✭WuffyCerulei wrote: »Strife is a decent self heal for when you don't trust your healer enough. Also a reduce spell cost glyph is a savior for any magicka build.
The problem isn't that you can't possibly sustain a MagDK, MagSorc, etc. The problem is that it isn't wise to try and do so. It is more beneficial to run maximum damage and heavy attack for your resource returns, rather than to gut your damage, and maintain a spammable rotaiton.
The reason being that the ratio of damage dealt by spammables for the amount of magicka they cost is way off. They need to be cheaper.
neither can you sustain a mag nb on your own.
Strife is cheaper
Force pulse has aoe, chance to apply elemental effects and is buffed by several passives. Including racials, DK fire dmg AND more penetration, therefore higher dmg than strife0 -
Subversus✭✭✭✭✭
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Force pulse has more damage, aoe, has 3 hits instead of one, can't be reflected, is a beam.
Strife has *** damage, gets reflected, is no beam aka gets dodged a lot.
You want to make force pulse cost the same as strife? Wat
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LZH✭✭✭✭
Force pulse has more damage, aoe, has 3 hits instead of one, can't be reflected, is a beam.
Strife has *** damage, gets reflected, is no beam aka gets dodged a lot.
You want to make force pulse cost the same as strife? Wat
Keep in mind this post is from a PvE perspective, and I also never said they were supposed to cost the same. I understand force pulse is more effective from a DPS standpoint, but is it worthy of being 50% more expensive?0 -
LZH✭✭✭✭WuffyCerulei wrote: »Strife is a decent self heal for when you don't trust your healer enough. Also a reduce spell cost glyph is a savior for any magicka build.
The problem isn't that you can't possibly sustain a MagDK, MagSorc, etc. The problem is that it isn't wise to try and do so. It is more beneficial to run maximum damage and heavy attack for your resource returns, rather than to gut your damage, and maintain a spammable rotaiton.
The reason being that the ratio of damage dealt by spammables for the amount of magicka they cost is way off. They need to be cheaper.
neither can you sustain a mag nb on your own.
Strife is cheaper
Force pulse has aoe, chance to apply elemental effects and is buffed by several passives. Including racials, DK fire dmg AND more penetration, therefore higher dmg than strife
With 1 recovery glyph and drain I can sustain a magblade for 2-3 minutes without a single heavy attack. With 3 recovery glyphs I can sustain a magsorc for about 1 minute and then heavy attacking begins. It's not even close.0 -
Zer0oo✭✭✭✭✭
✭They have no idea what they are doing and every 3-6 month they do something like that without really thinking about it. I am not even that mad about the cost increase or the cost of the spam-able skills, i am way more mad about the change to orbs or the role of supporting your group with resources. It is now all about self-sustaining with heavy attacks and not dependent on the group play of your healers.
- Update 23Ice Furnace: This item set now grants Spell Damage, rather than Weapon Damage for the 4 piece bonus1 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I think it's less an issue about spell costs and more about all the Morrowind nerfs to sustain.
Also ZoS wants a "burn" phase and a "recovery" phase, but trying to DPS that way is very inefficient because the means in which resource are recoverable is abysmal. The only time it's good to "burn" is during execute phase.Edited by Joy_Division on July 15, 2017 3:14PM0 -
laksikus✭✭✭✭✭
✭WuffyCerulei wrote: »Strife is a decent self heal for when you don't trust your healer enough. Also a reduce spell cost glyph is a savior for any magicka build.
The problem isn't that you can't possibly sustain a MagDK, MagSorc, etc. The problem is that it isn't wise to try and do so. It is more beneficial to run maximum damage and heavy attack for your resource returns, rather than to gut your damage, and maintain a spammable rotaiton.
The reason being that the ratio of damage dealt by spammables for the amount of magicka they cost is way off. They need to be cheaper.
neither can you sustain a mag nb on your own.
Strife is cheaper
Force pulse has aoe, chance to apply elemental effects and is buffed by several passives. Including racials, DK fire dmg AND more penetration, therefore higher dmg than strife
With 1 recovery glyph and drain I can sustain a magblade for 2-3 minutes without a single heavy attack. With 3 recovery glyphs I can sustain a magsorc for about 1 minute and then heavy attacking begins. It's not even close.
who cares what people can do with 1 recovery glyph if people still sue 3 damage glyphs?0 -
LZH✭✭✭✭WuffyCerulei wrote: »Strife is a decent self heal for when you don't trust your healer enough. Also a reduce spell cost glyph is a savior for any magicka build.
The problem isn't that you can't possibly sustain a MagDK, MagSorc, etc. The problem is that it isn't wise to try and do so. It is more beneficial to run maximum damage and heavy attack for your resource returns, rather than to gut your damage, and maintain a spammable rotaiton.
The reason being that the ratio of damage dealt by spammables for the amount of magicka they cost is way off. They need to be cheaper.
neither can you sustain a mag nb on your own.
Strife is cheaper
Force pulse has aoe, chance to apply elemental effects and is buffed by several passives. Including racials, DK fire dmg AND more penetration, therefore higher dmg than strife
With 1 recovery glyph and drain I can sustain a magblade for 2-3 minutes without a single heavy attack. With 3 recovery glyphs I can sustain a magsorc for about 1 minute and then heavy attacking begins. It's not even close.
who cares what people can do with 1 recovery glyph if people still sue 3 damage glyphs?
I'm just comparing the sustain difference between what is most commonly used on Magblade (1 recovery glyph) and MagSorc (either Witchmother's or full damage) and how crazy the gap is. Just lowering Force Pulse to 2000 magicka cost instead of 2430 would make a huge difference.0
